View Full Version : An enlightening day! (steve toy's amps)
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 17:57
Steve toy came round to show me his pure sounds/tube distinctions amp today as i have been concidering buying it
he can now vouch for my room issues, and that indeed the position i originally had my speakers in is by far the best option!
after we established that we wired the his ps/td amp into my 82 -
big improvment in most areas - notably there was a fuller sound - much fuller!
the amp controlled my speakers better and filled in a lot of gaps the nap180 lacks. unfortunatly in combination with the 82 the amp didnt quite have the pace of the 180 and sounded somhow a little bit too big for the room!
so we plugged in his tube distictions preamp... instantly a huge improvment! quite astonishing in fact! all of the 82/ps/td combo issues were gone! his pre and power are obviously very well matched!
it is actually amazing how important synergy is within a system!
i am left with an unfortunate situation .. i really like the power amp, but more so in combo with the pre and as such more thinking is def required!
the best thing to come out of today is that i now know my pmcs are frankly bloody brilliant and the linn majik is a much better source than even i had imagined
next step - audition avondale s100
thank you again for coming round today Steve, you have given me a lot to think about ... some of which i could curse you for!
now time for :cool:
Hehe... I heard about your, erm, 'epiphany' :eyebrows:
Welcome to valve power, amigo!! ;)
Your life will never be the same again.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 18:21
i aint bought it yet buddy!
i was impressed though! that anthony of td is a very clever man!!
Yup, I know you've not bought it yet dude - I was just told how shocked and stunned you were when you heard the pre and power amp together ;)
that anthony of td is a very clever man!!
Tell us summart we don't know! And he's a Welsh boyo too, can you believe it? :lol:
Marco.
Steve Toy
10-11-2009, 18:46
My findings regarding the 82/TD A30 power amp were exactly the same as Hamish's. It just goes to show that those with good ears coupled to an open and discerning mind will always hear the same and Hamish is certainly blessed with such faculties.
The 82/180 combo was as I remembered it, pacey, involving and sync-locks the strands of the music really well if perhaps lacking in overall detail and presence. The 180 also lacks bottom end grip as I recalled.
Adding the Tube Distinctions A30 tightened up the bass considerably and gave it more authority too making his front door catch rattle! It sounded bigger too but to my ears there was a slight timing glitch and the Naim sync-lock quality was lost.
It was a bit of a trade-off really. The A30 did a great room correction trick but at the slight expense of overall involvement.
So after much fiddling about with connections and squeezing the G1000HD interconnects into the tightest of spaces (it's a good job they are more flexible than the standard Mark Grants) the TD grounded grid pre was just perched on the arm of the sofa.
Three bars into the music (Hamish what was it?) and he was exclaiming how utterly fantastic the system now sounded. Room issues, sofa issues, timing glitches were all gone. The room was filled with the most beguiling musical performance that made me realise that a) that Linn Majik DS is bloody good and b) PMC FB1s are frankly awesome speakers. If I found a pair s/h for not much money I'd snap them up. Everything was just right, timing, separation, subtle nuances, passionate performances, textures and tonality the Naim (any Naim) could only dream about, dynamics to make you jump and pin-sharp imaging in a cavernous and airy soundstage.
In a word: awesome!
Steve Toy
10-11-2009, 18:48
Anthony......!
PMC FB1s are frankly awesome speakers. If I find a pair s/h for not much money I'd snap them up.
Wot no Tannoys?
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 19:08
Three bars into the music (Hamish what was it?) and he was exclaiming how utterly fantastic the system now sounded.
the song was 'closed captioned' by fugazi... my words were, "that sounds fucking amazing!" i think you were trying to tell me about something to with the gain... at the time, im not sure i was very distracted by the music! very very open sounding!!
.....
have just spoken to jon (zenner on pfm) he is aranging a s100 for me in the next couple of weeks! i forgot to ask him actually but im going to see if he will lend me his starfish preamp. i want to see how those 2 things stack up before i make any ferther desitions!
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 19:09
just to clarify steve, they are FB1+ as aposed to FB1 ... i am pleased that you liked them though, i always think its a shame they arnt prettier to look at, but then i guess they would be more expensive in the first place!!
It's hard to decide which of the amp or the preamp produces a greater difference in one's setup.
Having the two matching amps is generally magic (for well made amps) ! :)
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 19:13
yeah 180 had advantages with the 82 that the 82 ps/td didnt but then those advantages returned with the td pre.. its def all about synergy!
Which is what we've always said all along, matey... :eyebrows:
It'll be interesting to see how you think the Avondales compare. Good move.
I've heard the Avondale power amp in direct comparison to my TD Copper amp (and of course I know Steve's amp well), so I know what I think ;)
Marco.
... especially when this synergy is part of the design. These amps were designed together, no ?
(I've no doubt that one of the best power to put with a Croft pre is the pairing Croft power, for instance)
Steve Toy
10-11-2009, 19:19
Sort of...
Ok, I meant (to be more precise) they were "optimized" together. "Designed" is a bit too abrupt, it's not what I meant. ;)
anthonyTD
10-11-2009, 19:41
hi all,
well,, first of all i am glad that the room issues hamish has been experiencing are correctable, also that his source and speakers are well up to the job!
as far as the demo is concerned, what ever happens now, ie; whether he decides to bite steve's arm off for the power amp etc,:eyebrows: at least hamish has been shown a somewhat shorter path to achieving his audio nirvana!
regards,anthony,TD.
PS,thank you hamish for your comments.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 20:02
Anthony
no, probs! it would be hard not to be positve about what i heard today!
my only issue is the financial outlay!
i would not be entierly satisfied with the power amp alone, i would need a new pre and i think i would like one of yours ... i could see that not being a particuly small outlay? i would also like you to check over steves amp, make sure all is running up to scratch...
anyway, steve as just texted me saying to phone you and talk over the options, so that is what i shall do tomorrow if that is ok?
anthonyTD
10-11-2009, 20:24
Anthony
no, probs! it would be hard not to be positve about what i heard today!
my only issue is the financial outlay!
i would not be entierly satisfied with the power amp alone, i would need a new pre and i think i would like one of yours ... i could see that not being a particuly small outlay? i would also like you to check over steves amp, make sure all is running up to scratch...
anyway, steve as just texted me saying to phone you and talk over the options, so that is what i shall do tomorrow if that is ok?
hi hamish,
i understand, and yes by all means give me a call tomorow to have a chat about things etc.
regards,anthony,TD...
Hi Hamish,
There are many before you who have been caught in the trap you are now in. I know countless people who finally stopped swallowing the Naim mushroom compost and recognised the vitality a valve amplifier can bring to a system. There are also many like you who having discovered the revalation, are then constrained by finance. In your case, this would be a good time to think about DIY. If you can afford Steve's power amp, I'd go for it regardless. You could then make yourself a nice passive pre-amp to develop your soldering and construction skills without having to mess with any live power. A simple and cheap passive will work well, will introduce you to a new area of the hobby and will cost peanuts (I can supply a simple diagram from which you can construct). When you are ready for a powered pre-amp, you can either go for a ready made or look at the DIY options. World Design do some very good pre-amp kits on which you could hone your DIY skills. They are easy to build with comprehensive instructions and provided you follow them, they teach you how to be safe working with live voltage. The other advantage is that a kit can be tuned to get the sound right in your system.
Go on, think about it. You seem a practical sort of person with your photography and kit knowledge. What I've suggested is almost exactly how I got into it albeit I started with speakers. Certainly for me DIY was the only suitable route because I had developed a taste for an expensive sound but could not afford to buy it over the counter. Making my own made it all very affordable and actually brought far more versatility and enjoyment into my hobby.
Regards,
Greg
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 20:57
greg
i have indeed concidored your perspective, perhaps beyond what i have yet mentioned!
are you award of the starfish diy preamp project? i have only just become properly aware of it my self! once i have the s100, hopfully with an early incarnation starfish up and running i shall have a better perspective of what i am dealing with. at that stage i will be making a more firm desition! if the s100/star fish doesnt come close to what i have heard today i will go for steves amp and try it first with the starfish. that i think will make an improvemnt over the 82 combo that might well sufice for the mean while!
Ali Tait
10-11-2009, 21:33
Quite agree with Greg here.One thing I would add is that the WD pre's are in effect minature triode amps and use output transformers.This design allows them to sidestep the most common issue of matching pre to power causing poor sound-that of impedance.The WD pre will work really well with just about anything.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 21:35
funnily enough i was looking at the wd's just prior to investigating the starfish
Steve Toy
10-11-2009, 21:38
No passive pre will ever come close to the TD grounded grid. In fact not many preamps at all anywhere come close. Certainly, if you want drive, dynamics a dive-in-there soundstage as well as subtlety and transparency it just has to be active.
I'd take a solid state pre over a passive and Anthony makes rather fine solid state preamps too...
As far as I can see, the Starfish is what the 552/252 should be, although the bandwidth limiting is optional.. Still a 1960's early transistor design with single rail 24V supply though, albeit more of them than in a lower grade naim preamp..
I looked at the WD preamp too, but the cost was so much more than the old Croft I ended up with I abandoned the idea. Apparently, there's loads of race tuning to be done on the WD too.
Good luck, and I'm very pleased for you that you've found an amp to suit the PMC's, as transmission lines can be difficult to control properly...
No passive pre will ever come close to the TD grounded grid. In fact not many preamps at all anywhere come close. Certainly, if you want drive, dynamics a dive-in-there soundstage as well as subtlety and transparency it just has to be active.
True.
I fully understand why Greg recommended building a passive pre, from a D.I.Y point of view to get Hamish building, but quite simply, in comparison to an active preamp of the quality of your TD one, sonically, I suspect that it's no contest.
In fact, I've yet to hear any passive preamp that I could live with, and I've heard some good ones (both D.I.Y and commercial) full of top components. It's a fundamental design issue. Passive preamps, of any description, I suspect are just not up to what I get from the Croft or what you get from your TD preamp.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 21:46
it would be interesting to see the effect of a starfish, once i have the s100 and starfish here steve unless the s100 is very very good i can see my going for your amp! jon is happy for me to return the s100 to him, would you be happy to make a second visit for a comparison with the avondale with starfish?
as a side note any ferther visits petrol i am happy to cover...
Certainly, if you want drive, dynamics a dive-in-there soundstage as well as subtlety and transparency it just has to be active.
Then why did he Naim not work so well?
Not all active pre amps are created equal!... It could well be that in that particular instance a passive could well have been better!
I think Greg's suggestion was as much a 'get you going' solution as much as a good intro to DIY. Hamish could add an active pre at a later date.
Yep, that was my point. I don't disagree with the benefit of an active pre, but I know what it's like when you're cash strapped and can't afford all you would like. If Hamish is in this position but can afford Steve's power amp, it'll keep his system working until he can afford a powered pre and also present a listenable sound in the meantime.
Regards,
Greg
Seems like sounds advice to me :)
Marco.
. Apparently, there's loads of race tuning to be done on the WD too.
Hi Dave,
Sorry, I don't understand this and certainly, what does 'race tuning' mean? I'd appreciate an explaination. Thanks.
Regards,
Greg
Spectral Morn
10-11-2009, 22:14
I agree too.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 22:18
mike, greg, you have come to the conclusion i have! i am though, despite the overwhelming advice, un willing to make the step without exploring the other option! steve is happy to let me piss about exploring my options a little bit for a few weeks so why not.. the way i see it i have nothing to loose, and a lot to gain!
Steve Toy
10-11-2009, 22:18
Then why did he Naim not work so well?
...because it's bandwidth limited. The power amp is a wide bandwidth design and so thrives on a similarly wide-open active pre. In advance of going to Hamish's today I anticipated timing issues with the Naim pre into this push-pull valve amp.
As far as I can see, the Starfish is what the 552/252 should be, although the bandwidth limiting is optional..
No to bandwidth limiting!
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 22:24
if the bandwidth limiting is optional.. then surly an unlimited starfish might well work quite well as a steping stone?
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 22:28
... if i sold my 82/hc/180 i could prob afford both bloody power amps and the starfish
alfie2902
10-11-2009, 22:35
Hi Hamish,
I'm going through a very similar enlightenment process! I've also got a nearly empty HiFi fund atm & with christmas just around the corner its going to be a few months before i'm back on my feet! :(
I recently bought a pair of Living Voice OBX-R speakers which I've always been very impressed with when I've heard then before. But my old classic Exposure amps are killing them :(
Two visits from kind valve owners though, over the last 2 weekends have totally changed things for me! :)
The first week-end a well fettled 'Leak Stereo 20' arrived (It looked brand new not close to 50 years old). We set this up using the Expo VII pre & *WOW* my LV's aren't broken after all they were singing :) they still sounded perhaps a little shut-in but I've since put that down to the Expo VII pre!
Last saturday I was treated to a Kondo m7 pre :eyebrows: a modded Art Audio Quintet power amp with a Boarder Patrol psu. This set-up just blew me away the best sound I'd ever heard in my room!:eyebrows: I swore too! Talk about synergy! :gig: I'm not sure the the Art was that much better than the Leak but the pre made alot of difference!!:eyebrows:
The problem is now I can't even listen to the Exposures! The good news is I've got a WAD KEL84 to pick up on saturday to get me going (Thanks Ali!) :) I can then sell the Expo's & start a new journey!
Hope it works out for you Hamish! Listen to these guys, then listen to the kit as your doing, it stops mistakes like mine!
I'd be listening to Steves amp if I had the money!
Cheers alfie
...because it's bandwidth limited. The power amp is a wide bandwidth design and so thrives on a similarly wide-open active pre. In advance of going to Hamish's today I anticipated timing issues with the Naim pre into this push-pull valve amp.
So not all pre amps are created equal then? ;)
The point I'm trying to make is; your PureSound/AoS may well be happier with a passive in front of it than the Naim!
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 22:47
alfie
i lusted after naim for a long time, just through not knowing the sencible alternatives.. i have never been unhappy with it (apart from when i was being driven by my cd5/flatcap 2 ..eugh!!)but i am now very willing to explor other options, i dont want to make any decision rashly .. i know what i like and what sound i am after and steves kit is the closest i have heard without VAST layout...
you talk about making mistakes.. i dont see anything like what you are doing as mistakes, as long as you can acru the knowledge to learn, its just part of the learning curve! today definatly confirmed what had had began to understand about synergy!
dont remind me about christmas please, as this rate my lady is getting a very differnent form of carbon to that she has become acustomed!!
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 22:49
here is the best place for info on the starfish.. if anyone is up to finding out any info that might give clues to synergy with ps/td power amp i would be very greatfull
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23485&highlight=starfish
this is the build manual
http://www.sael.co.uk/pinkfish/starf...manual_v06.pdf
The point I'm trying to make is; your PureSound/AoS may well be happier with a passive in front of it than the Naim!
Yup - But should he care?
It's like asking a Bugatti owner if he'd wonder what it would be like to drive a Smart car instead :lol:
I do get where you're coming from, though! ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 22:55
its all about manageable steping stones though marco, and if those steping stones lead to a paradice island then it doesnt matter how many of them they are - at least as long as they are in a relativly straight line!
How very profound, Hamish! Have you been enjoying a little bit of mother nature tonight? :peace:
Marco.
Yup - But should he care?
Should who care? :scratch:
Hamish?... Yes! He could be one step closer to his goal without spending a sum of money in one go that could have him serving up a couple of 'soft body parts' on a platter to his missus as a peace offering!
Steve?... Yes! He's trying to sell the bloody amp! Anything that could help a potential 'customer' on his way should be 'a good thing'!
I give up! :mental:
The Vinyl Adventure
10-11-2009, 23:27
Mike, you don't have to worry u completly take your point and am well on your wavelengh with how to proceed!
Marco, well I said it was enlightening didn't I?! :) (I almost continued the metaphor by talking about clearing mists and safe fixed stones as aposed to dangerous sedimentary ones... But I decided against it :)
Should who care? :scratch:
LOL! You've defo lost yer mojo, matey. Should Steve care whether his PureSound/AoS may well be happier with a passive in front of it than the Naim?
...When he uses something eons better than both; hence my Bugatti/Smart car remark ;)
S'ok, it wasn't that funny anyway! :lolsign:
Marco.
Should Steve care whether his PureSound/AoS may well be happier with a passive in front of it than the Naim?
Answered that above... try and pay attention! :smoking:
Ali Tait
11-11-2009, 11:28
Hamish,it may be worth looking out on fleabay for a WAD Pre2.They do come up now and again,and at a good price.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 14:59
all the problems solved, im having steves amp and a certain very nice welsh man is going to help me out with a pre...
Way hey, result! :clap:
:)
Trust me, Hamish, this is the point where your music listening enters a completely different chapter. Be prepared to completely rediscover your music collection - I'm not kidding.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 16:14
yup, if yesterday was anything to go by, i completely agree!
are you gonna have anthonys grounded grid prototype marco or are you going to let me save up for it??
LOL... We'll have to see what happens when it's built and how it compares to my Croft.
There's no reason why one of us can't have the prototype and the other another one that's built from scratch ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 17:19
agreed, anthony has just emailed me suggesting the build from ground up option that by the sound of it would be more financially viable for me at this stage ... but yeah, like you say lets see what happens :)
edit
... actually scratch that! im going to give him the go ahead for the build from scratch.. sounds like the perfect solution!!
Steve Toy
11-11-2009, 17:23
Hamish you are a lucky man if Anthony has agreed to build you a grounded grid pre.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 17:57
I know I am, I literally couldn't be more happy!! Just spoken to him on the phone to confirm
Anthony, I said this on the phone, will say it agian - I can't thank you enough for doing this for me, it really is apreciated!
So.. I gotta give a list of specs to Anthony later
so far we have agreed on steped atenuator with remote control and three inputs with an acrilic aos series style front ... Can anyone think of anything else I might need in terms of spec?
A power direct-in bypass, perhaps (for use in a future AV setup) ?
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 18:03
Good call!! Although I am hesitant to use the valve set up for movie watching that is still a good idea!
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 18:04
Dimitri, Is that called unity gain?
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 18:08
A fixed level out for headphone amp use or a tape deck (remember those). A dedicated tape loop would be what I would want/need. I would also probably want more than 3 inputs....for me 7 would be nice.
Sorry its for you Hamish not me....:doh::lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L :cool:
Dimitri, Is that called unity gain?
I think it's called unity gain, sometimes. It's an input which bypasses preamp stage, thus allowing for an external amp (an AV multichannel amp) to control the volume, thus to share the power amp section (and the front speakers).
It is also called "AV input" or "AV bypass".
Dave Cawley
11-11-2009, 18:12
No, no! keep it pure, AV is a no no!
Dave
Dave, if you have an AV and you don't have an extra room you do what ? Buy a pair of extra speakers ? :confused:
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 18:15
yeah.. maybe a few more inputs would be wise.. il think on that one!
if i was to us it for av it would be a case of plug in and use as aposed to leaving it connected! i have done that for a long time with the naim kit so it would be no bother. i do take your point though dave
.. as a side note note dave, i suspect i shall be requiering a phono pre amp once the dack is fixed :)
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 18:16
Dave, if you have an AV and you don't have an extra room you do what ? Buy a pair of extra speakers ? :confused:
i have extra speakers so its no fuss either way i choose to go
if i was to us it for av it would be a case of plug in and use as aposed to leaving it connected!
If you have a separate power amp, then the bypass is not necessary : a simple switch would do the job too (with an extra cable, is true).
If it's an integrated, then you need a bypass.
i have extra speakers so its no fuss either way i choose to go
Ah ok, then. :) In an AV setup, it's the central speaker the most important thing, not the front speakers.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 18:36
I agree! Although I did go to a mate of a mares house who had a 4 channel ss system that was mind blowing! But that was luck as much as anything else I recon
Ali Tait
11-11-2009, 20:26
My sky+ box via a Beresford goes into my valve and electrostats system.This is used every day.Sounds fab!
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 20:31
the beresford does indeed add the bonus of no less than 4 extra inputs
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 20:33
when i have my new system i will alo do a more indepth review of the difference between a caiman and linn majik ds
the majik absolutly out did its self in the system that steve brought down, it will be interesting, once i have that level of resolution, to see how well the beresford holds its own!
Dave Cawley
11-11-2009, 20:35
Dave, if you have an AV and you don't have an extra room you do what
You save up and move...........
Dave
I agree! Although I did go to a mate of a mares house
Was it a stable?
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 20:44
Dave, if you have an AV and you don't have an extra room you do what
You save up and move...........
Dave
dave, i have eternal respect for your straight forward aproach to forum comments! .. can you possibly imagine why i mentioned what i did to you the other day :)
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 20:46
Was it a stable?
massive, high ceilinged room with very big naim/linn/adam system!.. impresive it was!
Beechwoods
11-11-2009, 20:50
I am very jealous. Can't wait to see how this all comes together!
I am very jealous. Can't wait to see how this all comes together!
Me too, i hate being skint again, darn those bills for stupid things like food and morgage
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 21:07
:) i have basically worked my ass of for the last year setting up two businesses. my lovely lady has given me permision to delve in to my saving (my savings.. her permision... im not sure how that works...) to give my self a christmas bonus .. if it is any concilation i am otherwise quite quite skint
Beechwoods
11-11-2009, 21:24
Having heard Steve's Amp and the grounded-grid Pre at Scalford I just know how good this system is going to sound. You're a lucky man, especially having talked Anthony into building you one to order. How cool is that! Anthony - you're a very nice man :eyebrows:!
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 21:57
Uber cool... That's how cool, I am indeed lucky! I am, not suprisingly, in a a very good mood tonight!
I looked at the WD preamp too, but the cost was so much more than the old Croft I ended up with I abandoned the idea. Apparently, there's loads of race tuning to be done on the WD too.
I would still be very much obliged if Dave (DSLR) could explain this. I don't understand it and I'm sure others don't. Please, what is 'race tuning'?
Regards,
Greg
Ali Tait
11-11-2009, 22:14
I think he just means putting boutique parts in Greg.
tubehunter
11-11-2009, 22:18
i'd want the grounded grid pre without that noisy fan thats in steves
Ali Tait
11-11-2009, 22:23
Transcendent Sound do a grounded grid pre,and very nice it is too.If Anthony's is anything like it,it will be very good.
Ali Tait
11-11-2009, 22:24
See here-
http://www.transcendentsound.com/preampkit.htm
Hi Ali,
OK thanks. If that is the case he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about so probably it would be better for him not to publish misinformation.
Ah well, things like this often happen and at least it allows the reader to make some judgements on the creditability of the poster. Thanks for the insight. ;)
Regards,
Greg
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 22:30
... ??? What you on about Greg ... Im very confused!
Transcendent Sound do a grounded grid pre,and very nice it is too.If Anthony's is anything like it,it will be very good.
Hmmm, I've heard one in my system and there was no synergy. It was over bright and tended towards screechy. The old story really, horses for courses, not all good individual kit bolted together makes a good system. Make sure you listen before you commit to a buy or at least be sufficiently fettled as a DIYer to allow you to tune your amp to make the system work well as a whole.
Regards,
Greg
... ??? What you on about Greg ... Im very confused!
Hi Hamish,
Re-read post 24 above.
Regards,
Greg
Ali Tait
11-11-2009, 22:41
I had someone round ages ago to have a listen to the WAD 300b pse monoblocks when I still had them,who brought one with him.Sounded very nice in my system at the time,open and spacious.Good at the frequency extremes too as I recall.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 22:47
I'm not sure he does know the answer.. Isn't that what he is saying "aparently there is race tuning to be done" this implys to me that as far as he knows it is possible to make the wd better than it is as standard, notthat he actually knows the possible upgrades... That's how I read it anyway... Or have I missed something?
Dave Cawley
11-11-2009, 22:50
Hamish, trust me; sloooow down, smell the coffee, consider alternatives, chill out man. BTW my vets bill for today was £600, no more Blu Ray's for me..............
Dave
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 22:57
I have dave, don't worry, I have concidored my options, looked at things from a finacial and audio point of view, I have sanctioned it with the missis and am happy I'm doing the right thing! It's a big step but it's been a while in the thinking now!
Have you not got the fluffy kittys insured
Hi Ali,
Yep, I don't doubt you but also, you and I know that a WAD 300B PSE is a very different animal to the original 300B PP.........you've (maybe still do) owned both ;)
Steves amp is a push pull. Provided the grounded grid is built to compliment it, no problem. Otherwise I'd advocate caution on considering the Transendent Sound option. Can also be expensive on valves (grounded grid designs need alot more valves compared to transformer output designs) when they start failing and individual failed valves are not easily detectable in a transformerless output system. and also the potential to damage following kit in the chain. Sorry, I'm a complete sceptic about grounded grid designs. I don't doubt they work well but the drawbacks in terms of reliability and subsequent cost puts me off big style.
Regards,
Greg
Hi Greg,
Steves amp is a push pull. Provided the grounded grid is built to compliment it, no problem.
Oh don't worry, it was. Steve's TD grounded grid is one of the best preamps (either valve or solid-state) that I've heard - period. If you'd made the last Owston you'd have heard how good my heavily-modified Croft preamp performed (Nick really liked it) with various D.I.Y-built power amps.
Well, Steve's grounded grid pushes it all the way, and in some ways betters it, although I've not quite finished tweaking it yet :eyebrows:
The difference is though the Croft has a superb built-in MM phono stage that works! ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 23:27
I'm putting a lot of trust in Anthony, but I have to say, in the short few convos I have had with him, combined with what I have read and heard about his stuff I don't beliv it is very likely at all that he will let me down. He is makeing an amp for me for an amp that he tweaked, if anyone is likely to make something to work well with this amp it is definatly him! And I really really like what I heard on Tuesday! I am very confident I am doing the right thing... And if it all goes wrong.. Well I can just pick up the phone and talk to the man him self! You don't get that with hardly any hifi! Not to mention the fact that the man who I am dealing with is very obviously very passionate about what he does and is taking the time to build something specifically for me! Tell me honestly, if you had the money and were in a position after hearing something you really liked and the manufacture of what you liked said he would build you a one off that would get very close to what you liked for a price you felt reasonable... Would you say no??
Hamish,
Knowing Anthony very well both as a talented audio designer and a person, you have no worries whatsoever, matey. What you end up with will be superb in a way that you've previously not been able to comprehend! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
OK, that seems good. My main concern was about the suggestion of Trancendent Sound. Certainly these can be good but all my warnings on the design are relevant. It's more about the competance of the owner. If you're happy to poke, dabble and get involved, grounded grid might be right for you, but if that is not your scene, I'd think again. One of our very competent friends ;) on Audio Talk built his own grounded gid amp and it blew up twice causing considerable damage to many components. I'm just offering a word of caution for consideration of any innocent punter. Conventional Pre-Amps can do the business be they modded manufactured kit or DIY stuff like the exceptionally versatile (I mean that, check out what it can handle system wise) WD stuff.
Regards,
Greg
Your points are noted, Greg. It would be interesting to hear Anthony's thoughts on the grounded grid principles and how he's implemented them into the design of his preamp :)
I've certainly never known any of his designs to blow up, and indeed Steve has been using his GG preamp on average for 6-7 hours a day for the last 2 years, completely trouble-free.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
11-11-2009, 23:50
I'm not worried! Thank you for your concern.. But I'm not worried, Anthony has inspired a lot of confidence in me!
Steve Toy
12-11-2009, 00:05
My grounded grid is also ten years old and apart from a few modifications (volume pot, input switch and a rewire) it is the same having survived plenty of chances to blow up.
Steve Toy
12-11-2009, 00:21
Marco, I've had the grounded grid since summer of last year.
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 00:36
I guess il be needing more cables then... Is it even worth asking what I should go for?
The Grand Wazoo
12-11-2009, 00:36
Hamish, trust me; sloooow down, smell the coffee, consider alternatives, chill out man. BTW my vets bill for today was £600, no more Blu Ray's for me..............
Dave
Do you think Hamish may be about to make a move he'll regret Dave? What do you suggest he should try?
Hamish, I actually agree you may be moving too fast - you may well end up buying this gear, but there are lots and lots of options that you may just find equally interesting & it'd be a shame not to consider some of them. As I said before, I do feel you might be more at home with valves than anything else. (I have to admit though, I don't know why I think this at all! - So I'm probably best just ignored).
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 01:02
There is an aspect to this that I haven't and am not gong to mention - because of this and what I have already said, feel like I'm making the right decision! I know what I heard on Tuesday! I don't feel like, based on the performance of my kit and the performance of what I heard in combination with the factor I'm not willing or able to talk about I have anything to loose taking this path! I have intact been thinking about an upgrade of amp for a good few months, maybe the impression I have given is one of a rash decision made in a very short time.. I have in fact talked to a good few people on here on other forums as well as a few manufactures and people who I know outside of the forum in the "industry" everyone who has come across Anthony has had very positive things to say about him! If I could tell you the factor I'm not talking about in the simple terms that have taken me to this aparent quick decision ... I'm sure yo would understand ... Sorry to be so criptic!!
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 01:11
God that sounds like a load of bolocks doesn't it... I hate having to be criptic it just sounds like chuff, but I am really not in a position to talk about the deciding factor!
It doesn't matter anyway, I do apreciate peoples concerns, but I'm a big boy now, if all goes wrong then well il learn from my mistake ... I doubt very much it will though! And even if it does go wrong well... It's only bloody money!
Steve Toy
12-11-2009, 01:39
Oh yes Hamish, get yourself a couple of pairs of G1000HD interconnects from Mark Grant.
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 01:40
Thought you might say that!
anthonyTD
12-11-2009, 10:07
hi all,
well only just read through this thread and it would seem i need to explain why i decided to agree on making this one off for hamish!
simple realy,,, he heard a certain synergy in his own system that realy worked for him, at the moment only part of the combination he heard was available to buy ie; the power amp! once this preamp is built and i am happy with it, hamish will be given it to evaluate in his system, only then when he is satisfied that he made the right decision will he be expected to part with his hard earned cash!
i built my first version of grounded grid preamplifier about 12 years ago, and the reason for choosing this aproach was not taken lightly, after building and experimenting with various other valve preamp designs, i felt that the grounded grid design topology offered the best aproach to what i wanted to achieve.
also, i would like to point out that grounded grid circuit design when done correctly is no more prone to breaking down than any other piece of valve equipment!
i hope this clears a few things up.
regards,anthony,TD...
Dave Cawley
12-11-2009, 10:16
So is that input on the cathode? Is this a two stage design? What are the rough input and output impedances? We used to use grounded grid years ago for low noise 50 ohm input @ 144Mhz!!
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave,
I doubt it was intentional, but the tone of your above post comes across as a little confrontational and 'interrogatory'.
Are you having a bad day, mate?
Marco.
Dave Cawley
12-11-2009, 10:36
Wow!! Does it? Why? I used that topology years ago in a different application, so I'm naturally curious. I can't see a problem with that? Bad day, not me! you?
Dave
No, 'course not. It's just the way you worded it and the use of repeated exclamation and question marks. It's so easy to misinterpret the tone behind posts depending on the language and punctuation used.
It's no big deal - probably just your writing style, not to worry :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
12-11-2009, 10:47
Wow again! I'll not worry then. Curiosity and technical explanations are me though, I'll explain anything if people ask, I naturally assumed everyone was the same............. But then, I'm often disappointed with life, don't talk to me about life......
Thanks
Steve Toy
12-11-2009, 10:51
I can see why Marco sees it that way. Hamish was blown away by a sound he heard in his system in his room and wants to replicate it.
Tbh, it sounded better than I hear at home despite having a bigger room and better ancilliaries.
So why could anyone think he might be making a mistake?
Wow again! I'll not worry then. Curiosity and technical explanations are me though, I'll explain anything if people ask, I naturally assumed everyone was the same............. But then, I'm often disappointed with life, don't talk to me about life......
Thanks
LOL... Dave, I'm sure that Anthony is willing to answer any questions you ask him - no problem :)
I just looked at your post and couldn't help reading it in a German SS officer's accent, if you get me!
"Ve veel make you talk, you schweinhund..." :lol:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 11:47
I think you are worrying to much guy's dave first comments were looking out for me based on the idea I might over complicate the amp, And his later coments are surely just intrige... He always sounds like that, it's just the way he types on forums!
Anyway I have spoken to Anthony and the amp is goin to be a very simple one with 4 line ins and 2 power amp outputs! I am going to keep the ss kit separate as I have the space for extra speakers just coneected to my ss amp! Long term plan - get my self a tasty 6 channel power amp if I want the extra grunt for the ss! But I will come back to that at a later date! This valve system is pure hifi! Just the way it should be :)
anthonyTD
12-11-2009, 11:53
:lolsign:
what are you lot like!
i have had conversations with dave in the past so i understand now how his questions can be miss-interpreted as interogation,but i have been assured by people who have met and know dave that he is a decent and rather nice character in person, thats why i find it best not to take too much notice of people's "keyboard character":)
regards,anthony,TD...
And a very sensible move that is, too!
I was only 'poking' Dave and having a little fun - he's a top bloke who I know can take it! :eyebrows:
Anyway, sire, to keep Dave happy, could you answer his earlier questions in reference to your grounded grid preamp:
So is that input on the cathode? Is this a two stage design? What are the rough input and output impedances?
:)
Marco.
anthonyTD
12-11-2009, 13:17
And a very sensible move that is, too!
I was only 'poking' Dave and having a little fun - he's a top bloke who I know can take it! :eyebrows:
Anyway, sire, to keep Dave happy, could you answer his earlier questions in reference to your grounded grid preamp:
:)
Marco.
hi marco,
i dont realy think thats necessary, dave has obviously looked at grounded grid circuitry [which isnt rocket science by the way] at some point, and if he understands its principles he will already know the best way to impliment this type of circuitry for audio use and why.
if he dosent then there is no point in me explaining anything!
regards,anthony,TD...
For anybody interested in a GG preamp, Bruce Rozenblit makes a stunning kit version for $499....
http://www.transcendentsound.com/preampkit.htm
Hi Dave,
I doubt it was intentional, but the tone of your above post comes across as a little confrontational and 'interrogatory'.
Shall I post the Monty Python link?
Ali Tait
12-11-2009, 19:14
For anybody interested in a GG preamp, Bruce Rozenblit makes a stunning kit version for $499....
http://www.transcendentsound.com/preampkit.htm
Already posted that link! ;)
Shall I post the Monty Python link?
Yes :eyebrows:
Marco.
*Joe asks before posting links, now...* :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
It's hard to decide which of the amp or the preamp produces a greater difference in one's setup
Absolutely. Having just bought a new preamp I remain amazed at the effect it has on my system. You could make the mistake of pushing me into ever higher models of power amp from the Chord range, but I know I have probably the best stereo (as opposed to multi-channel) power amp they have ever made. Yet the new pre has achieved even more performance from the already impressive Chord, making for a whole that exceeds the sum of its parts.
So yes, take preamps seriously.
Well, chaps, they are quite near the source signal , after all ;)
Marco.
Yes, you are right: preamps condition the signal, but power amps condition the speakers... ;)
Which comes first though (and hence is ultimately more important, well at least if you share the same values as I do)? :)
Marco.
Marco, it's really hard to say a phrase which will work on all or most cases.
If I had to choose one, I would say that the preamp can me more satisfying, because it gives most of the tonal balance. If it's what you mean, then, yes, I agree.
But, still, you need a good (matching to the speakers' philosophy) amplifier to get the most out of your speakers. And high-end capable speakers can give really a lot.
Which comes first though
A bottleneck anywhere along the signal path is going to determine a system's best potential performance.
Yep, address wherever the bottleneck is and that will give the biggest improvement :)
Dimitri is also right... There is no single answer to this rather 'old chestnut'. I guess that my flat-earth roots will always place that little bit more emphasis on the musical ability of the source and control components than what's happening further down the chain (not that this isn't important, too, of course).
Marco.
And I do agree with that. However, the extreme flat-earth view that the speakers hardly mattered led to bizarre front-heavy systems that didn't stand a hope of sounding good. It also led to speaker designs like the Linn Kan and Proac Tablette that I abhorred.
Steve Toy
29-11-2009, 16:49
Weighted towards the front end/pre maybe but satisfactory results are not derived from extremes.
Spectral Morn
29-11-2009, 17:20
And I do agree with that. However, the extreme flat-earth view that the speakers hardly mattered led to bizarre front-heavy systems that didn't stand a hope of sounding good. It also led to speaker designs like the Linn Kan and Proac Tablette that I abhorred.
:( Ohhhhhh ! That was my first speaker love. If you could have heard mine, in my room then in that system (the room was part of the system) I think you might feel differently. The system was valve powered...it was 20 odd years ago, but people who heard it then, would still talk about its sound as being excellent even all these years later. It was a small L shaped room.
The set up then was.
Marantz CD94 mk2 on Mana Reference table Pandoras box mains filter and Kimber mains cable. Audio Innovations Series 500, Kimber mains cable, Shan Isolation platform with one German cone vibration sink and 4 Audio Quest big feet. Deltec Black slink RCA to RCA cable and XLO Type 6 speaker cable. Audio Dimensions (genesis of the Target R1 speaker stand. Target stole the design) speaker stands, Proac Super Tablette's. Voyd Valdi TT, Rega RB300 arm, Lyra Lydian, Rata TT stand, EAR Head step up transformer. Audio Note ANS/ANV rca to rca interconnects. Revox 260s tuner and Nakamichi CR5e tape deck. Main equipment table was a Target TT5. This set up in that room rocked big time imho/e.
Regards D S D L
My experience of them was only in the Audio T demo room so I withdraw my comment! I just got annoyed when booking demos that I had told them I was running transmission line speakers (Cambridge R40) and yet they had the little Proacs ready and waiting for me to listen to amplifiers. My heart sank. They just didn't seem to listen!
Spectral Morn
29-11-2009, 17:38
My experience of them was only in the Audio T demo room so I withdraw my comment! I just got annoyed when booking demos that I had told them I was running transmission line speakers (Cambridge R40) and yet they had the little Proacs ready and waiting for me to listen to amplifiers. My heart sank. They just didn't seem to listen!
No problem Martin. That shows that back then AudioT had not got a clue about how to run a demo to match a customers set up. Speaker with restricted bass output as substitute for speaker with loads :doh::doh::( I would have walked out of the shop after telling them what I felt about such stupidity.
No wonder your heart sank. Also the Tablettes are best suited to small listening rooms and should only be used on Target heavy weight stands or the Audio Dimensions Classic 1's. They also like valve amplifiers too.
Regards D S D L
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