View Full Version : Isokinetik Stabiliser weight for Denon 103 - a warning
Bought one and it arrived this morning, thought I'd try it on my Zu Denon 103, only trouble is you're supposed to glue it to the top of your cartridge, I was wary of doing this in case it didn't improve anything.
However because the brass weight is threaded you can't just screw it onto the Zu 103, as the threads don't line up properly, I did think about drilling out the threads on the plate, but couldn't find my drill bits.
I thought ok to hell with I'll glue it on with the supplied glue.....
Here comes the warning for anyone wanting to try it, it sticks rock solid the second the brass plate hits the glue! Once placed it can't be lined up or moved around to get straight it just won't move :(
Luckily mine was placed on almost straight, it's a fraction of a mm out but hardly noticeable.
The biggest issue now is the audio quality, I'm not happy with it, it's seems to have sucked the life out of the cartridge, there's no sparkle, it sounds slow and ponderous, this was exactly the reason I didn't want to glue it, and now I'm kicking myself for not drilling out the thread and just sandwiching it between cart and headshell.
I've tried redoing cart and arm setup but nothing seems to help.
So I suppose the lesson to be learned is always make sure you have an out. I can't see me being able to remove the brass plate with any glue dissolver as it's a very flush fit and I doubt I'd get any in between the two surfaces :(
You live and learn lol.
Wakefield Turntables
21-04-2016, 20:14
May I suggest buying some No 11 scalpal blades they are extremely small and may just enable you to chisel enough of the glue away to seperate the two layers that you glued.
Good idea, I'll stick (pardon the pun) with it just now and see if I like it in the long term, it has given me more bass but at the expense of treble. Main worry with fighting to part them is buggering up the rather exposed needle.
Mind you good excuse to move up cart wise ;)
Can you not place the cartridge upside down in a small container and add some "glue dissolver" (acetone?) to the container so that it just sits above the joint, and let it soak?
Failing that I would be tempted to try heating it with a hair dryer on the brass plate and see if that frees up the glue. It would be good to know what type of glue it is though.
Can you not place the cartridge upside down in a small container and add some "glue dissolver" (acetone?) to the container so that it just sits above the joint, and let it soak?
Failing that I would be tempted to try heating it with a hair dryer on the brass plate and see if that frees up the glue. It would be good to know what type of glue it is though.
That's a brilliant idea, thanks, it's a yellow tube called Tool Box, I've not seen superglue like it since the late 70's, remember the stuff your mates used to put on toilet seats, well thisis faster lol
The change in sound might be down to my arm and the mass being too much now as the cart now weighs 22g as well as 10g for the headshell, took me 4 x £1 coins and a £2 coin added to the counterweight to get it to balance.
This is the stuff
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toolbox-Super-Glue-3g-8-Tubes-Pack-/121459058818?nma=true&si=DzscFYP0XhChqNJFHqH6BMwrWtc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
So acetone will work.
If there is any nail varnish remover in the house, then it is probably acetone.
So acetone will work.
If there is any nail varnish remover in the house, then it is probably acetone.
I'm sure have some in the house, and no it's not mine lol
montesquieu
21-04-2016, 20:52
Ooops ... !
I've had truly great results with these on both 103 and 103R, it really stiffens up the body as well as adds mass and worked superbly. Not sure how it would interact with the Zu body, but had to be worth a go ... it does have to be stuck on very carefully though!
Some good suggestions here about removal, hope it goes well!
walpurgis
21-04-2016, 20:53
Can you not place the cartridge upside down in a small container and add some "glue dissolver" (acetone?) to the container so that it just sits above the joint, and let it soak?
Not something I'd try myself.
The DL-103 body is a type of ABS I believe and I doubt it or adhesives used to bond it dissolves in acetone. It may even be plastic welded.
Furthermore, acetone fumes can soften other parts. Maybe the cantilever suspension and bonding, the lacquer on windings and adhesives used elsewhere. Perhaps even holding the diamond tip.
Should I wish to dismantle a cartridge body, I'd be inclined to look at watch back removing tools and possibly the fine, small rotary saw blades available for Dremel multitools.
i'd caution on using pure acetone. It is strong stuff. also you may have to have it immersed for some time. Some nail varnishes use a % of acetone or similar, but some dont. We used the super strength stuff occasionally and boy it is powerful. .. and dangerous; its low flashpoint and it burns almost invisibly, plus it heat drawing abilities make it highly hazardous.
I had to get a dangerous goods licence to tote it on the truck
I would use the scalpel route
walpurgis
21-04-2016, 20:55
I see Grant also has a negative view on the subject. :)
montesquieu
21-04-2016, 20:56
Not something I'd try myself.
The DL-103 body is a type of ABS I believe and I doubt it or adhesives used to bond it dissolves in acetone. It may even be plastic welded.
Furthermore, acetone fumes can soften other parts. Maybe the cantilever suspension and bonding, the lacquer on windings and adhesives used elsewhere. Perhaps even holding the diamond tip.
Should I wish to dismantle a cartridge body, I'd be inclined to look at watch back removing tools and possibly the fine, small rotary saw blades available for Dremel multitools.
OP is using a Zu body ...
walpurgis
21-04-2016, 20:59
OP is using a Zu body ...
Ah. Should have started at the beginning. Never mind. My thoughts on acetone still apply.
Yeah, its an aluminium body, so acetone be fine, mind you i'm going to leave it on until I change the arm.
Tip of the day, if you want to set fire to something and not be caught - use acetone, very hard to detect ;)
walpurgis
21-04-2016, 21:03
Yeah, its an aluminium body, so acetone be fine, mind you i'm going to leave it on until I change the arm.
If you want to risk the fumes attacking other parts.
My late son said it smelled like poppers, whatever that is ..... Yeah we went through gallons of the stuff daily...tbh the truck was basically a bomb, and a legal one:eyebrows:
great for cleaning up tools, although they need regreasing.
Ammonite Audio
22-04-2016, 09:51
A few years ago I put one of these on an AT-33PTG, in order to gain threaded mounting holes. Adding this amount of mass shouldn't have impaired its performance, but it did, so I'd advise caution with this type of product that is intended to be glued into place.
I did manage to remove the stabiliser weight with a sharp knife and a bit of care, leaving an unsightly residue of superglue on the top of the cartridge body. I've not had much luck with this particular cartridge - the original ML tip snapped in half, so I had it re-tipped by a well-known specialist in the South of England, and it never sounded good after that. The huge blob of glue holding the new tip in place might have something to do with that, though. One day I might send it to the chap in Holland who seems to get good press, for a new tip similar to AT's original.
Anyway, back to the original point - unless there really is a need to add mass to a cartridge, I'd avoid this particular stabiliser weight. You can get headshell weights that do the same thing, without any permanent attachment, so that's a better way to go.
montesquieu
22-04-2016, 10:13
A few years ago I put one of these on an AT-33PTG, in order to gain threaded mounting holes. Adding this amount of mass shouldn't have impaired its performance, but it did, so I'd advise caution with this type of product that is intended to be glued into place.
I did manage to remove the stabiliser weight with a sharp knife and a bit of care, leaving an unsightly residue of superglue on the top of the cartridge body. I've not had much luck with this particular cartridge - the original ML tip snapped in half, so I had it re-tipped by a well-known specialist in the South of England, and it never sounded good after that. The huge blob of glue holding the new tip in place might have something to do with that, though. One day I might send it to the chap in Holland who seems to get good press, for a new tip similar to AT's original.
Anyway, back to the original point - unless there really is a need to add mass to a cartridge, I'd avoid this particular stabiliser weight. You can get headshell weights that do the same thing, without any permanent attachment, so that's a better way to go.
Wouldn't have thought the AT needed the extra mass Hugo, it's firmly in mid-compliance territory. My only experience with it has been on the original plastic body 103 where it works a treat.
Ammonite Audio
22-04-2016, 10:46
The aim wasn't to add mass, rather to provide threaded bolt holes. The Miyajimas all require old-fashioned nuts and bolts, so I'm having to get used to not having the convenience of threaded fixings.
Yes, but adding mass was consequently what also happened, which was undesirable with that particular cartridge ;)
You really only want to be adding mass onto headshells or cartridges with low-compliance MCs.
Marco.
Hi Mike,
Sorry to hear of what's happened with the Isokinetik stabiliser. Did I advise you to buy one, or did you do it of your own accord? If it was the former, then I was either sleeping or thought you were talking about a stock DL-103! :doh:
First of all, if you've got a Zu-modified 103, then adding mass is completely unnecessary, and as you've found, likely to be sonically counterproductive, as the optimal mass, designed to allow the cartridge to perform at its full potential, has already been built into the body shell.
Secondly, the *only* way I'd ever use the Isokinetik is without glue, and simply screwed in between the cartridge and headshell, using the usual Allen bolts, thereby making it a non-permanent fixture. When I fitted mine, I simply discarded the glue, as I feared happening exactly what you've unfortunately experienced!
However, as Tom correctly points out, the Isokinetik, used in conjunction with a bog-standard DL-103 (or any version where mass hasn't been added to the body shell) works superbly well, as the added mass and structural integrity it provides, is nearly always sonically beneficial.
Anyway, I hope you can get the bloody thing off without damaging your cartridge and learn accordingly from the experience.... ;)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
22-04-2016, 11:43
Yes, but adding mass was consequently what also happened, which was undesirable with that particular cartridge ;)
You really only want to be adding mass onto headshells or cartridges with low-compliance MCs.
Marco.
The added mass, taken into account with the existing cartridge mass and the arm's effective mass should have been OK. You do have to consider all the mass elements, you know! ;)
Yes, but the bottom line is that is sounded pish - and I could've predicted that! ;)
Out of curiosity, Hugo, which arm were you using?
Marco.
Lol you won't believe it, but I was fitting the cart complete with stabiliser to my original technics headshell this morning in an attempt to lower the total weight, and as I was tightening the screws, the brass stabiliser popped off, the screws had come up against the body of the cart and levered the stabiliser off.
So I just fitted the cart back onto the ADC headshell.
Thanks for more info guys, I only bought it to try it, no harm done, I'm still just fiddling to get the best I can ;)
Brass stabiliser will be up for sale soon lol.
Marco, the reason I had to glue its because the threads in the stabiliser didn't line up with the c ones in the cartridge so it would force the stabiliser away from the body of the cart when tightening up, so glue was the only option.
Marco, the reason I had to glue its because the threads in the stabiliser didn't line up with the c ones in the cartridge so it would force the stabiliser away from the body of the cart when tightening up, so glue was the only option.
Yeah, I get that. It was more why you were fitting a stabiliser to a Zu-103 in the first place... ;)
Marco.
Lol you won't believe it, but I was fitting the cart complete with stabiliser to my original technics headshell this morning in an attempt to lower the total weight, and as I was tightening the screws, the brass stabiliser popped off, the screws had come up against the body of the cart and levered the stabiliser off.
So I just fitted the cart back onto the ADC headshell.
Thanks for more info guys, I only bought it to try it, no harm done, I'm still just fiddling to get the best I can ;)
Brass stabiliser will be up for sale soon lol.
Marco, the reason I had to glue its because the threads in the stabiliser didn't line up with the c ones in the cartridge so it would force the stabiliser away from the body of the cart when tightening up, so glue was the only option.
Great stuff Mike - well done.
I am finding this thread interesting as I may pick up a Denon 103 myself in the near future in order to see what its capabilities are. Don't think I will need to add mass in the arm I'm using.
Yeah, I get that. It was more why you were fitting a stabiliser to a Zu-103 in the first place... ;)
Marco.
A) Cos someone said to try it ( but probably assumed I had a standard 103 )
B) I didn't know any better
C) I like to try things
D) Am a Daftee
Answers on the back of a tenner please, pm for my address ;)
Great stuff Mike - well done.
I am finding this thread interesting as I may pick up a Denon 103 myself in the near future in order to see what its capabilities are. Don't think I will need to add mass in the arm I'm using.
You just missed one yesterday on the Wam at £80 already in an aluminium body with 25 hours on it, I nearly bought it as a spare
You just missed one yesterday on the Wam at £80 already in an aluminium body with 25 hours on it, I nearly bought it as a spare
Damm! Shouldn't have told me that Mike.:)
Ammonite Audio
22-04-2016, 12:09
Yes, but the bottom line is that is sounded pish - and I could've predicted that! ;)
Out of curiosity, Hugo, which arm were you using?
Marco.
It was a while back, but possibly an Ittok.
Damm! Shouldn't have told me that Mike.:)
Sorry. Right after I fitted the stabiliser I went to buy it but it was gone lol. He was selling a Denon HA500 SUT that I fancied too but that sold quickly.
In the end having been advised by Walpurgis to try a Zyx R50 Bloom so that's what I'm aiming for. I still need an arm and stage and or SUT/Head Amp as well eek.
I have some money coming from my grans estate so depends on how much as to what I will buy first.
I fancy Alan's phono stage based on the Kin, but I also like the look of the Tron, although heard neither of them.
A) Cos someone said to try it ( but probably assumed I had a standard 103 )
B) I didn't know any better
C) I like to try things
D) Am a Daftee
Answers on the back of a tenner please, pm for my address ;)
Lol - alles klar!
Marco.
It was a while back, but possibly an Ittok.
That probably explains it, then. Had you come on the forum and asked the question: "I've got an Ittok and an AT-33PTG, and I want to gain threaded mounting holes. Is fitting an Isoinetik stabiliser a good idea?"
I'd have said no, because the Ittok is already a fairly massy arm, designed to be used with low-compliance MCs, such as Linn's own designs of the time, and fitting an Isokinetik stabiliser, with something like an AT-33PTG, may over-egg the pudding....
Just call me 'crystal ball-boy' :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Sorry. Right after I fitted the stabiliser I went to buy it but it was gone lol. He was selling a Denon HA500 SUT that I fancied too but that sold quickly.
In the end having been advised by Walpurgis to try a Zyx R50 Bloom so that's what I'm aiming for. I still need an arm and stage and or SUT/Head Amp as well eek.
I have some money coming from my grans estate so depends on how much as to what I will buy first.
I fancy Alan's phono stage based on the Kin, but I also like the look of the Tron, although heard neither of them.
I suspect the zyx may enter my home one day too. Alans phono stage I am sure will superb as I have heard his KIN and the phono stage in this is excellent. The Tron is tiptop stuff but bit pricey I feel? Depends how much your gran leaves you!:)
By the way did you get to hear Alans Head Amp?
I suspect the zyx may enter my home one day too. Alans phono stage I am sure will superb as I have heard his KIN and the phono stage in this is excellent. The Tron is tiptop stuff but bit pricey I feel? Depends how much your gran leaves you!:)
By the way did you get to hear Alans Head Amp?
I did, but it didn't add much, so I sent it on to banjoman.
The Tron I was thinking about is their £1000 mc version, but it's in the back of my mind that Alan's Kin (Vivant I think it's called ) would give me more for my money.
Not really expecting much from my Gran, knowing her was enough, surprised she's put me in her will, but also happy that she has and I don't mean that in financial terms.
She was in her 100th year and sharp as a tack ;)
Ammonite Audio
22-04-2016, 13:19
That probably explains it, then. Had you come on the forum and asked the question: "I've got an Ittok and an AT-33PTG, and I want to gain threaded mounting holes. Is fitting an Isoinetik stabiliser a good idea?"
I'd have said no, because the Ittok is already a fairly massy arm, designed to be used with low-compliance MCs, such as Linn's own designs of the time, and fitting an Isokinetik stabiliser, with something like an AT-33PTG, may over-egg the pudding....
Just call me 'crystal ball-boy' :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
I wouldn't say 11.5g is 'fairly massy'.
Well it's certainly more medium-mass, than low-mass :)
In any case, had both items been mine (the Ittok and AT-33PTG) instinct would've told me that adding any further mass would've likely been a no-no. Had the cartridge instead been a DL-103, then that'd have been different.
Marco.
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