More about Raspberry Pi - Gaplessness

[MarmiteSandwich]

In my quest to find a renderer to replace my XP laptop/foobar2000 combo, I have been researching black boxes under £100 which can be relied upon to just sit there and render UPnP/DLNA playlists. Gaplessly. Being reluctant to replace one computer with another, I have only just got round to investigating the Raspberry Pi. Pure Jongo and various cheap Chinese streaming boxes either didn't have a digital output or failed at the gapless hurdle. I even tried an Android TV box, with BubbleUPnP, which always seemed to handle gapless well on my phone/tablet. In this case it was nearly gapless, but you could still hear the join.

So to RP, brand new model 3 B, with moode loaded up as recommended. Version 2.5 is the latest published, which doesn't actually work on RP3, unless you download a special hacked version. This looked promising, and after setting the config to support gapless, I have ended up with a solution similar to the Android/Bubble combo. That means it is very nearly gapless, but you can still hear a tiny but audible glitch at the changeover from one track to the next. I tried messing with the buffer size etc., but experienced the same result. With foobar2000 and the UPnP component, it is a flawless transition.

The reference album is a live recording (inevitably), ripped by iTunes to .m4a at 256k, streamed from Minimserver, controlled by Linn Kazoo or BubbleUPnP, connected by Ethernet. I am playing the RP into a Cambridge Audio DACmagic (not the 100 version) via USB and I have tried using the RP on-board audio into an analogue powered speaker with the same result.

Does anyone else share my obsession with wanting to play albums the way they sound on a CD or LP? And are there any suggestions for how to get round this with a Raspberry Pi/moode, or RP and some other software? Apart from this, moode looks like good software with lots of configurable options.

[MarmiteSandwich]

I just replaced moode with Runeaudio and the problem appears to be solved. Abbey Road and Miles Davis at Newport can now be played...

[Stratmangler]

I'm surprised that very few folk complain about the lack of support for gapless playback.
I don't suffer from it myself - gapless playback has been a feature of the Squeezebox way of doing things for years.

[struth]

Funnily I hate gapless playing, and have had live albums for instance done that way and normal studio ones that just dont sound right. May be a result of what I was used to with vinyl of course, but shows there are differing views.

[Stratmangler]

Funnily I hate gapless playing, and have had live albums for instance done that way and normal studio ones that just dont sound right. May be a result of what I was used to with vinyl of course, but shows there are differing views.

So you accept the gaps where there should be none on DSOTM, Abbey Road, and anything else that segues from one track into another?
Of course you don't!

You have me wondering what your perception of gapless playback is.
Are you referring to cross fading between tracks? If you are then you have the wrong end of the stick as to what gapless playback is :scratch:

[struth]

Maybe live albums was wrong analogy. as they usually are stop start. I class a rip of a studio album being played with no gap between tracks as gapless. I dont like that as I like the transition between tracks. sorry for confusion.

[walpurgis]

Gapless teeth would be nice. :D

[Stratmangler]

Then you have the wrong perception of gapless playback.
The fade outs and silences on recordings are included in the rip of whichever CD you care to mention, and these fade outs and silences are present in the replay.

If you don't get such things happening then there is a problem with the playback routines on whatever you're playing the music on, and it's usually to do with settings.
Gapless playback is actually a desirable thing. Removing gaps is not.

[struth]

Gapless teeth would be nice. :D

Teeth would be nice ;)

[struth]

you mean compression artifacts removal then? I have to say I dont really notice them, or havent....maybe I have it on then? dunno... I as referring to what i classed as gapless, IE, no gaps.... you learn new things all the time :lol:

[Stratmangler]

you mean compression artifacts removal then? I have to say I dont really notice them, or havent....maybe I have it on then? dunno... I as referring to what i classed as gapless, IE, no gaps.... you learn new things all the time :lol:

Where does compression come into the conversation?

Gapless is just that - no gaps, as ripped from the original CD. If there are fade outs and silences in the original rip then there will be fade outs and silences on playback with gapless playback, just as there were on the original CD.
If those silences are being shortened on playback then some kind of processing algorhythm is being applied, and its effects are, in my opinion, undesirable.

My last mobile phone wouldn't support gapless playback, and it was annoying that there were silences between tracks on something like Deep Purple's "Made In Japan", because the tracks were intentionally segued one into another (and not by me).
And this was despite installing a media player (WinAmp) which claimed to give gapless playback.

My current mobile phone has the same media player installed (WinAmp), and this time around there are no gaps in the segues, just as if I were playing the CD, and this is an altogether better situation from my perspective.

With both devices the media player the came installed on the device was incapable of playing the tracks without a dropout in sound, something which irritated me immensely.

If your media player is removing gaps then your settings might be set for crossfading, removing detected silences, or something along those lines, then it's likely to be DSP driven, and anything like that is unnecessary and undesirable.

[MarmiteSandwich]

If you listen to Abbey Road on vinyl or CD, the tracks Sun King/Mean Mr Mustard/Polythene Pam/Bathroom Window are continuous music, with no silent passages (gaps?), as there are between Bathroom Window/Golden Slumbers or Come Together/Something. Whether gaps appear or not depends on whether the record producer(s) put them there or not. On some players and devices (too many, I think), there are silences (gaps) in between all tracks. I guess it is a bit more tricky to implement continuous play while streaming the tracks. On live albums the problem is particularly evident as the audience suddenly suspends its applause for 1 - 2 seconds and then resumes, as if they were frozen for 2 seconds.

Anyway, the answer I have discovered is that the gap is very small, although discernible with RP3/moode, but absent with Windows/Foobar and RP3/Runeaudio. The latter is my currently favoured combo and is under heavy testing to make sure there are no other surprises. Moode and Runeaudio look and feel very similar and seem to have much the same configuration settings, as if they started life as the same product. Moode seems to major more on internet radio and commercial streaming services.

All of these are played via USB into a DAC and sound identical. It is just the functionality that is bugging me.

[MarmiteSandwich]

I'm surprised that very few folk complain about the lack of support for gapless playback.
I don't suffer from it myself - gapless playback has been a feature of the Squeezebox way of doing things for years.

Chris,
I have had several Roku Soundbridges for 10 years or so, which occupied the same market territory as the Squeezebox, and also had gapless from day 1. I never knew there was an issue until I decided to abandon them as obsolescent, and started into UPnP/DLNA. That was a shock, to say the least.

[rikardo1979]

If you listen to Abbey Road on vinyl or CD, the tracks Sun King/Mean Mr Mustard/Polythene Pam/Bathroom Window are continuous music, with no silent passages (gaps?), as there are between Bathroom Window/Golden Slumbers or Come Together/Something. Whether gaps appear or not depends on whether the record producer(s) put them there or not. On some players and devices (too many, I think), there are silences (gaps) in between all tracks. I guess it is a bit more tricky to implement continuous play while streaming the tracks. On live albums the problem is particularly evident as the audience suddenly suspends its applause for 1 - 2 seconds and then resumes, as if they were frozen for 2 seconds.

Anyway, the answer I have discovered is that the gap is very small, although discernible with RP3/moode, but absent with Windows/Foobar and RP3/Runeaudio. The latter is my currently favoured combo and is under heavy testing to make sure there are no other surprises. Moode and Runeaudio look and feel very similar and seem to have much the same configuration settings, as if they started life as the same product. Moode seems to major more on internet radio and commercial streaming services.

All of these are played via USB into a DAC and sound identical. It is just the functionality that is bugging me.

there is one more to add, so maybe you give it a try too
Volumio (https://volumio.org/)

[MarmiteSandwich]

there is one more to add, so maybe you give it a try too
Volumio (https://volumio.org/)

Cheers, will do.

[Stratmangler]

Chris,
I have had several Roku Soundbridges for 10 years or so, which occupied the same market territory as the Squeezebox, and also had gapless from day 1. I never knew there was an issue until I decided to abandon them as obsolescent, and started into UPnP/DLNA. That was a shock, to say the least.

I'm none too impressed with what I've seen of UPnP/DLNA.
I'm also quite bemused with all the chat about this player and that player wrt RasPi builds - I don't have the hassles of this functionality and that functionality being problematic.
The LMS on my NAS just dishes out the files, and the Squeezebox players just keep on rendering the streams they receive without missing a beat.

When I do get round to playing with RasPi it will be to make a player compatible with LMS.

[WAD62]

I'm none too impressed with what I've seen of UPnP/DLNA.
I'm also quite bemused with all the chat about this player and that player wrt RasPi builds - I don't have the hassles of this functionality and that functionality being problematic.
The LMS on my NAS just dishes out the files, and the Squeezebox players just keep on rendering the streams they receive without missing a beat.

When I do get round to playing with RasPi it will be to make a player compatible with LMS.

Hi Chris, use piCorePlayer if and when you take the plunge...I've had my SBtouch(EDO)/MDAC living room client synchronised with my kitchen IQaudio piDAC (piCorePlayer) for about 6 months, without any issues...piCorePlayer is bullet proof!

R.E. Gapless on winamp, it can be a bit of a faff with WASAPI & W7 onwards, but can be achieved by using SoX to transcode beforehand...

[rikardo1979]

I'm none too impressed with what I've seen of UPnP/DLNA.
I'm also quite bemused with all the chat about this player and that player wrt RasPi builds - I don't have the hassles of this functionality and that functionality being problematic.
The LMS on my NAS just dishes out the files, and the Squeezebox players just keep on rendering the streams they receive without missing a beat.

When I do get round to playing with RasPi it will be to make a player compatible with LMS.

never had any problems with streams on RPi. This little thing streams Full HD 1080p with DTS at high bitrates, even 3D if you like. So streaming a music is piece of cake for this if the SW is right and you have no issues on network. Obvious I talking about cable and not WiFi which I do not use for anything apart from working online and browsing.

[Stratmangler]

Hi Chris, use piCorePlayer if and when you take the plunge...I've had my SBtouch(EDO)/MDAC living room client synchronised with my kitchen IQaudio piDAC (piCorePlayer) for about 6 months, without any issues...piCorePlayer is bullet proof!

R.E. Gapless on winamp, it can be a bit of a faff with WASAPI & W7 onwards, but can be achieved by using SoX to transcode beforehand...

Thanks Will.

PiCorePlayer is exactly what I'd be looking at - I've seen very few negative comments about it, and comments in general concur that it's pretty well bomb proof.

The Winamp I'm using is the Android mobile version, and as I've found the gapless thing didn't work on an older Android version, but is quite happy on the version my current Smartphone runs on.
I was surprised to find that the WinAmp mobile player is not currently in the Play store, but if you Google around you'll find the player. Just takes a bit of detective work.

On my laptops and desktops I just use Foobar as my go to player, and I don't have issues with gapless playback.

[Stratmangler]

never had any problems with streams on RPi. This little thing streams Full HD 180p with DTS at high bitrates, even 3D if you like. So streaming a music is piece of cake for this if the SW is right and you have no issues on network. Obvious I talking about cable and not WiFi which I do not use for anything apart from working online and browsing.

I'm a telecomms installation engineer, and 30 or so years ago I was told by just about everyone that cable is a thing of the past and that everything would be run wireless.
I still install cable, although these days it's usually data cable.
I'm still waiting for the wireless Panacea to show its head above the parapet - with both telephony and data installation wired is quickest and best for reliability.

WiFi has its uses, but if you want it reliable stick to cabled.

[rikardo1979]

I'm a telecomms installation engineer, and 30 or so years ago I was told by just about everyone that cable is a thing of the past and that everything would be run wireless.
I still install cable, although these days it's usually data cable.
I'm still waiting for the wireless Panacea to show its head above the parapet - with both telephony and data installation wired is quickest and best for reliability.

WiFi has its uses, but if you want it reliable stick to cabled.

my words ;) That why all my equipment is on cable :) As mentioned, WiFi serves me only on my laptop for browsing. I do not use it for anything else, no movie or music streaming. I have an android tablet or smartphones as remote controls.

http://esq.h-cdn.co/assets/15/15/980x490/landscape-1428609921-esq-nointernetgif.gif

[Simon_LDT]

Volumio is gapless in playback. It's what I've been using the past few weeks and finding it to be simple and reliable.