Well done Mrs Janes.

[Spectral Morn]

As another 6 dead soldiers return home today, I have to ask why ?

Regardless of whether you support the conflicts UK soldiers serve in, they have to do their duty, whether they agree or not. These brave, mostly young men and women are at the beck and call of their political masters in the UK parliament. At present it is new labour who are in power (still) and it was new labour who sent them to war. However you would think, and indeed hope that troops should have the best gear to keep them safe...sadly our troops don't seem to have that necessity...for them it seems to be a luxury our government can't afford; and yet those in number 10 were happy to send them.

Not many of us can begin to imagine what its like to fight in a war, never mind put ourselves in the place of those who have lost loved ones in one. It was those in their 70's and older who had the misfortune to know first hand what this is like. Increasingly though it is those in their 40's and younger who are living this nightmare today.

Our politicians live in ivory towers and don't seem to understand the ramifications of sending real flesh and blood to fight for their political goals. At the very least they should send those guys and gals to war with everything they need and more to keep them alive. It is disgusting when this nations flesh and blood die needlessly when so many might still be alive. People die in war, but so many in the current conflicts have died via the actions of scum who won't stand and fight, but would rather plant road side bombs, than engage in sight to sight conflict.

Mrs Janes had the opportunity to tell, the unelected muppet who is our current prime minister what she thought about him, his government and the lack of gear our troops have to work with. It is sad that she had to do this, but having seen the letter written to her I don't blame her for loosing it. He got her name wrong and his writing was barely legible. If you are going to write to someone on such an important matter as this letter was about. Then imho the writing should be legible, written with an ink pen (not a fibre tip pen) and everything should be spelling perfect. I too would have been incandescent with fury if I had received such a piss poor excuse of a letter...it cheapens the sacrifice her son made, and makes it very hard to have any pride in our country.

Tomorrow is the 11 of November, so at the 11 hour of the 11 day of the 11 month I and I hope you will take a few minutes to pause and remember those who have died in all conflicts, but particularly remember those who have died recently and that includes Mrs Janes son.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/9906/11/9906_11_9---Remembrance-Sunday_web.jpg


Regards D S D L

[Covenant]

I feel a degree of sympathy towards Gordon Brown who seems to be everyones favourite punch bag right now.
He has very poor eyesight and writing with a fibre-tipped pen is easier for him.
The fact that it had mistakes shows it was genuine and not scribbled by an aide.

[Spectral Morn]

I feel a degree of sympathy towards Gordon Brown who seems to be everyones favourite punch bag right now.
He has very poor eyesight and writing with a fibre-tipped pen is easier for him.
The fact that it had mistakes shows it was genuine and not scribbled by an aide.

I can't and wont make excuses for brown. Britain once had the best trained soldiers and gear and what do they have now...very little. You can't make cutback after cutback and then send troops into conflict against a dirty enemy, were that lack of the best gear only leads to deaths. The helicopter is vital, heavily armoured personnel carriers/tanks are needed (not light jeeps) and the latest body armour. All these deaths are on the hands of our government, but many would not have died if properly equipped. That for me is the main issue, and no excuses can be made regarding that.


Regards D S D L

[anthonyTD]

these soldiers shouldnt even be there, they should be here in our own country ready to protect us from what ever potential attacks may or may not occur and not going over to some alian landscape on the pretence of what our governments are telling us its all for, as far as i am concerned its all bollocks, [excuse my tone but this whole situation realy agrevates me] get our soldiers out of there!
A...

[DSJR]

Having watched some of the programmes about WW1 and 2 this last week, I am still very ashamed of certain parts of humanity using rank and file soldiers as pawns in their childish greedy games :steam:

I don't mean to cheapen this, but what was it Kenny Everett said about getting all the world leaders in a field and bombing the b*st**ds?

[REM]

If politicians had to do a tour of duty in any war they started or supported then I suspect we would have fewer of both, a very good thing IMHO.
However on the specific point of Mrs Janes, let's not forget that this 'story' appears in the Murdoch press, have a look at STEVE BELLS (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/cartoon/2009/nov/10/steve-bell-gordon-brown-sun) cartoon in the Grauniad for a different perspective.

[Beechwoods]

It does make you very concerned about who is running our country and if they're fit to do so. Why did no-one check the letter before it was sent, particularly if Gordon's eyesight or spelling is sometimes left wanting. Perhaps the famous Brown temper now means that no-one will dare suggest that he's done something wrong? There is no excuse for this - Gordon Brown's office has failed. And that goes a long way to explaining why we're in the mess we're in.

[Spectral Morn]

It does make you very concerned about who is running our country and if they're fit to do so. Why did no-one check the letter before it was sent, particularly if Gordon's eyesight or spelling is sometimes left wanting. Perhaps the famous Brown temper now means that no-one will dare suggest that he's done something wrong? There is no excuse for this - Gordon Brown's office has failed. And that goes a long way to explaining why we're in the mess we're in.
Hi Nick

I agree.

If his eyesight is so bad....well the solution is very simple (is this beyond new labour spin doctors/aids etc)....a pair of glasses...simples. However it also raises the question about the small print on all those documents/treaties/deals he must sign, does he know exactly what hes signing on all our behalves ?


Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

If politicians had to do a tour of duty in any war they started or supported then I suspect we would have fewer of both, a very good thing IMHO.
However on the specific point of Mrs Janes, let's not forget that this 'story' appears in the Murdoch press, have a look at STEVE BELLS (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/cartoon/2009/nov/10/steve-bell-gordon-brown-sun) cartoon in the Grauniad for a different perspective.


While its true that Murdock's press have got hold of this and will exploit it, it does not change the truly awful mess brown and co have got us all into, and in Mrs Janes case the crap letter he wrote to her. Its not that he wrote to her (or the others, which is a nice/correct thing in its self), but that it was full of spelling mistakes and he could not get her name right. I went to my Mum's church a few years ago as I was invited to attend a one year anniversary/commemoration of all those members of the church who had died the previous year...my Mum being one of those who had died. The minister made a total mess of her name (he gave up and didn't say sorry) whats so hard about Marion...I was very upset and hurt by this, so I can understand where Mrs Janes is coming from on the mis-spelling of both her and her Son's name.

Regards D S D L

[Joe]

If politicians had to do a tour of duty in any war they started or supported then I suspect we would have fewer of both, a very good thing IMHO..

I'm not so sure; Churchill and Hitler both fought in WW1.

[Themis]

It's a shame for a civilized country's government to send people to fight for economical reasons in the 21st century. :(

[Joe]

It's plain stupid to go to war without a clear aim in mind. Our war aims in Afghanistan seem to change by the week.

[Spectral Morn]

It's plain stupid to go to war without a clear aim in mind. Our war aims in Afghanistan seem to change by the week.

Ultimately this whole situation has its beginning in the actions of America (the worlds Police man, but rarely or so it seems trying to foresee the future of their actions) during the tail end of the cold war...all the radicals we have to deal with today from that part of the world received their commission, knowledge,training and weapons from that time from America..the enemy then was Communism and Russia...but now its Us (rest of the world) and America that are the enemy.

Meddling in the affairs of other countries even if we disagree with them is a dangerous thing and more so if you don't understand the culture/history and aspirations of those countries and their people as is the case now imho. The actions in the 80's has led to the entire region becoming unstable which led to radical groups trying to seize power in Afghanistan and now Pakistan (thats due to their offering help/support to America). The mess is down to badly thought out meddling. In saying that I am not saying that nations should not try to help others or stand up to rogue nations (sometimes it could be said the west is very rogue in its actions as well as being very 2 faced and inconsistent) and protect the world from potential harm...WW2 being a good example of this...one of the few though, imho.

The goals in Afghanistan do change from week to week but that is down to the fluid situation in that region and how the West want to deal with it and poor long term planning.... Imho we face a protracted conflict which is a 21 century Vietnam, also a badly planned and executed war. Do we never learn...seems not.


Regards D S D L

[Themis]

The aim of the war in Afghanistan is securing the petrol around. :)
Apparently the "well trained" opponents were not ready to become America's employees. And we'll all pay for what Neil (rightly) calls "not foreseeing the future".

[Cotlake]

Its not that he wrote to her (or the others, which is a nice/correct thing in its self), but that it was full of spelling mistakes and he could not get her name right.

Hi Neil,

I suppose it's about how you look at things. We can be angry when mistakes are made particularly at difficult and sensitive times or we can choose to consider the bigger picture.

My mother died the year before last about this time of year. The funeral arrangement was that her surviving family would parade into the church behind the coffin and once in place, each family member would lay a single Rose on the coffin. Being the eldest, I and my wife followed immediately behind the coffin. As it was lifted out of the herse, we both saw the name plate on top initialing her as JM D.... when she was VM D... ! I was shocked but also recognised the potential for upset this would have. When my wife and I laid our Roses, we placed them over the initials. No one else in the family is today aware of the undertakers mistake and consequently there was no upset. I didn't even tackle the firm on it. What was the point? My grief was that I had lost my Mum, not that some prat could not get her name right.

Personally I think Mrs Janes is a classic example of exploitation and manipulation by the press who have a declared anti Gordon Brown/Labour agenda. I have no particular view on the Sun's campaign but I do very much think Mrs Janes has been a pawn on their chess board.

Regards,

Greg

[Cotlake]

Meddling in the affairs of other countries even if we disagree with them is a dangerous thing and more so if you don't understand the culture/history and aspirations of those countries and their people as is the case now imho. The actions in the 80's has led to the entire region becoming unstable which led to radical groups trying to seize power in Afghanistan and now Pakistan (thats due to their offering help/support to America). The mess is down to badly thought out meddling. In saying that I am not saying that nations should not try to help others or stand up to rogue nations (sometimes it could be said the west is very rogue in its actions as well as being very 2 faced and inconsistent) and protect the world from potential harm...WW2 being a good example of this...one of the few though, imho.

Hi Neil,

It is worth doing a bit of reading of Afghan history. You'll find Britain and plenty of other countries have been meddling in their affairs since the mid 1800's, original linked to our Colonial Indian Empire. There's nothing new here and in anycase, our present involvement is not just about terrorism but about the instability brought by their own perpetual state of civil war since the 1970's. The thing is, many have tried but to date, no foreign occupying power has found a resolution and end up retreating with egg on their face. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the outcome for America, GB and the rest of NATO in the current troubles. Many from many nations will die in the process. Whether it will actually have an impact on terrorism on our own streets and elsewhere is highly debatable.

Regards,

Greg

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil,

I suppose it's about how you look at things. We can be angry when mistakes are made particularly at difficult and sensitive times or we can choose to consider the bigger picture.

My mother died the year before last about this time of year. The funeral arrangement was that her surviving family would parade into the church behind the coffin and once in place, each family member would lay a single Rose on the coffin. Being the eldest, I and my wife followed immediately behind the coffin. As it was lifted out of the herse, we both saw the name plate on top initialing her as JM D.... when she was VM D... ! I was shocked but also recognised the potential for upset this would have. When my wife and I laid our Roses, we placed them over the initials. No one else in the family is today aware of the undertakers mistake and consequently there was no upset. I didn't even tackle the firm on it. What was the point? My grief was that I had lost my Mum, not that some prat could not get her name right.

Personally I think Mrs Janes is a classic example of exploitation and manipulation by the press who have a declared anti Gordon Brown/Labour agenda. I have no particular view on the Sun's campaign but I do very much think Mrs Janes has been a pawn on their chess board.

Regards,

Greg

Hi Greg

I am sorry for your loss. My Mum died 4 years ago and Thursday 12th November this week is that 4th anniversary. The grief/pain has changed but every so often it gets bad again...I miss her a lot.

I agree that Mrs Janes is quite likely being used, but she (as we are being told)approached the Sun at least in regard to the recording of the conversation she had with mr brown...that I think was wrong, as it was a private conversation. However mr brown didn't handle that very well.

I don't trust him and the synic in me feels that today was about trying to save his skin....only God and brown know the truth of what he said today..I don't but honesty from a politician is a rare thing.

The issues raised by Mrs Janes in regard to how operations are conducted in Afghanistan and the kind of gear the army has to use..is I think the more important aspect of this. Perhaps her Son would still be alive if they had the best gear and use of more helicopters....not only her son but those of many others who have died in this campaign.

Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil,

It is worth doing a bit of reading of Afghan history. You'll find Britain and plenty of other countries have been meddling in their affairs since the mid 1800's, original linked to our Colonial Indian Empire. There's nothing new here and in anycase, our present involvement is not just about terrorism but about the instability brought by their own perpetual state of civil war since the 1970's. The thing is, many have tried but to date, no foreign occupying power has found a resolution and end up retreating with egg on their face. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the outcome for America, GB and the rest of NATO in the current troubles. Many from many nations will die in the process. Whether it will actually have an impact on terrorism on our own streets and elsewhere is highly debatable.

Regards,

Greg

Hi Greg

I agree totally with you. I debated going that far back historically, but I think most agree that the current issues have much of their origin in the Russian invasion of the 80's.

I too fear that the West will have to withdraw at some future date and all the Wests involvement will have done is draw many disaffected Muslim youths/adults to holy war in Afghanistan and the surrounding countries. Its a circle that only makes our streets more unsafe in the long term imho. The question, however is would they attack anyway even if we were not involved in the war.

Much of their ideology is geared towards trying to save us from our decadent corrupt/two faced ways. War or no war western society is sick in many ways.

In regard to Afghanistan I think Alexander the Great had the best idea...get your generals to marry the daughters of the most powerful tribal chiefs...he had peace because of that.


Regards D S D L

[Beechwoods]

I must admit that I was / am very much against the war in Iraq. That was a war of economics and politicking that had no basis. The war in Afghanistan is far more complicated. The fact that Britain and the rest chose to fight it is interesting - they didn't choose to invest so much in other areas elsewhere, equally as war-torn or with despotic regimes, such as DR Congo, Somalia or Zimbabwe.

Afghanistan is a strategically important, and has been for hundreds of years as Greg points out. It has been a magnet for extremism due to it's lawless and tribal government ever since the withdrawal of the Soviets, and it's economic dependence upon Opium production presents another set of risks.

I see our presence in Afghanistan as not being an occupation, but of being a support to the Afghan people who deserve better than what they've got over the years. It has saddened me the way that democracy appears to have been imposed - the corruption around the recent elections has shamed the UN, IMO. I hope that some meaningful self-determination can be found by the Afghans, through all this.

And to be honest, to pull out now, would be to do what we always seem to do - meddle and f--- up other nations and leave them high and dry when it suits us. The least we owe the Afghani people is to stick by them as they work to rebuild their country.

Just my two-penneth.

[Spectral Morn]

I must admit that I was / am very much against the war in Iraq. That was a war of economics and politicking that had no basis. The war in Afghanistan is far more complicated. The fact that Britain and the rest chose to fight it is interesting - they didn't choose to invest so much in other areas elsewhere, equally as war-torn or with despotic regimes, such as DR Congo, Somalia or Zimbabwe.

Afghanistan is a strategically important, and has been for hundreds of years as Greg points out. It has been a magnet for extremism due to it's lawless and tribal government ever since the withdrawal of the Soviets, and it's economic dependence upon Opium production presents another set of risks.

I see our presence in Afghanistan as not being an occupation, but of being a support to the Afghan people who deserve better than what they've got over the years. It has saddened me the way that democracy appears to have been imposed - the corruption around the recent elections has shamed the UN, IMO. I hope that some meaningful self-determination can be found by the Afghans, through all this.

And to be honest, to pull out now, would be to do what we always seem to do - meddle and f--- up other nations and leave them high and dry when it suits us. The least we owe the Afghani people is to stick by them as they work to rebuild their country.

Just my two-penneth.

I agree Nick 100%...we can't pull out and leave them high and dry. However the troops involved in Afghanistan must be supported 100% too and given all and over and above what they need to fight as safely as they can. Also the other Nato nations involved need to pull their fingers out to and contribute much, much ,more.

Lets not let those who have died, have died pointlessly.


Regards D S D L

[Cotlake]

However the troops involved in Afghanistan must be supported 100% too and given all and over and above what they need to fight as safely as they can. Also the other Nato nations involved need to pull their fingers out to and contribute much, much ,more. D S D L

Hi Neil,

Certainly I agree about the contribution of other nations. In terms of equipment and technical support, surely what the fighters want and what our government supplies is the perennial arguement. The fighters want the best and the government have to control a budget. There is no answer to this and it only gets expounded owing to individual imotive impact when a loved soldier dies. The hard fact is, if you go to war, soldiers will die. Better kit will probably help prevent death, but it can't be conclusively said to reduce loss of life. Regardless of the level of support, in any war, soldiers will die.

I'm sure the present government would argue they have invested to support our troops to the best of their ability. I have no doubt there is room for more efficiency, but complain as much as we like, I'll generally expect that every government before them has argued they have done their best, going right back to any international conflict after 1066.

Regards,

Greg

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil,

Certainly I agree about the contribution of other nations. In terms of equipment and technical support, surely what the fighters want and what our government supplies is the perennial arguement. The fighters want the best and the government have to control a budget. There is no answer to this and it only gets expounded owing to individual imotive impact when a loved soldier dies. The hard fact is, if you go to war, soldiers will die. Better kit will probably help prevent death, but it can't be conclusively said to reduce loss of life. Regardless of the level of support, in any war, soldiers will die.

I'm sure the present government would argue they have invested to support our troops to the best of their ability. I have no doubt there is room for more efficiency, but complain as much as we like, I'll generally expect that every government before them has argued they have done their best, going right back to any international conflict after 1066.

Regards,

Greg

I agree with you.

In war soldiers die, that has always been a fact. Those who join up know that is a risk they face. However since this government committed to the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq they have cut the budget back and started to supplement regular troops with those from the TA. TA training is now reduced to once a month and yet the government expect these guys and gals to fight in a theatre of war...with minimal training, that to me is both ridiculous and a scandal. I just feel that if you are going to commit forces to war they deserve the best regardless...if you can't afford it you should not get into it. A simplistic view perhaps. The whole thing makes me very sad.


Regards D S D L

[anthonyTD]

if we stay i am afraid that we will have to get used to hearing about casualties on a regular basis, is that realy nescesary to prove we care about the ones that have fallen before? i agree about not leaving those people in the mess we are partly responsible for, but we will eventually leave, so the main thing we have to concentrate on as long as we are there is restoring some kind of law and order!
A...

[Spectral Morn]

if we stay i am afraid that we will have to get used to hearing about casualties on a regular basis, is that realy nescesary to prove we care about the ones that have fallen before? i agree about not leaving those people in the mess we are partly responsible for, but we will eventually leave, so the main thing we have to concentrate on as long as we are there is restoring some kind of law and order!
A...


A very hard thing to do.

Modern Afghanistan resembles the wild west of the 1800's in America. There is a lot of work to do, but do the Afghan people want what the West has to offer? That is the more vital question to answer, and if not then what do they want...surely not the Taliban.


Regards D S D L

[Covenant]

I remember a few years ago seeing a picture from Iran of three young men who had had their tongues cut out and ears cut off for saying things against the regime of Saddam. It sickened me so much that I totalled supported what happened after. I dont see potentially much difference in Afganistan-a totalitarian government under the Taliban with complete humiliation of women and a dire education system based on supporting fanatics who rule by intimidation.
To me, whether or not the true reason for us being their is about oil is irrelevant, if we can help ordinary people live reasonable lives.

[Cotlake]

Hmmm, I think you've got that all wrong. The Taliban are currently not in power in Afganistan but they would like to recover that position they once had. Locally in isolated towns and villages, they do hold control because the Afgan government does not have the resources to challenge, leaving the Taliban free to apply their fundamentalist control. Whilst the Taliban fight NATO forces who are trying to train up Afgan government backed troops and organisations so they can take effective control, the problem is that the Afgan government and everything there under is so corrupt it is very difficult to achieve the asperations all NATO forces and western governments have for them. In contrast, the Taliban keep up the fighting hoping that eventially, NATO will retreat and they will then be left to take over as they did after the Russians retreated priviously. This is why it is such an entrenched problem and military leaders tell us it will take years to withdraw with confidence to leave a stable government in charge and holding all under control.

I don't think Afganistan is anything to do with oil, although I agree Iraq probably was. The recent conflict involving America and then NATO was about controlling international terrorism as it seems such terrorists have secured a base in the country and there, people conspire to blow up western premises such as the Twin Towers in New York. This is all about George Bush's original war on terrorism after that event.

Yep, I agree, if we can do something to allow ordinary people to live reasonable lives that would be good. Unfortunately I don't think it is anyway near as simple as that and the corruption endemic within the current government and actually, right throughout the system means that anything we are doing now beit through our armed forces or through humanistic aid is making no positive contribution to the needs of the ordinary povity stricken population. Corruption ensures that just doesn't happen. Big shame!

It's another political nonsence which could suck us in for years without any guarantee of a reasonable outcome leading to the continuing fatality, month by month, year by year of our fine Armed Forces personnel.

Regards,

Greg

[Themis]

I don't think Afganistan is anything to do with oil, although I agree Iraq probably was. The recent conflict involving America and then NATO was about controlling international terrorism as it seems such terrorists have secured a base in the country and there, people conspire to blow up western premises such as the Twin Towers in New York. This is all about George Bush's original war on terrorism after that event.
The problem is not directly the oil : its about protecting and securing the nearby production sites in Iran and the gulf. Furthermore, the actual situation makes the construction of the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline (very important for Pakistan and India) impossible, as it passes through Taliban-controlled territories.

I doubt any country would go to war if it was only (or mainly) for political reasons. We solve political problems using diplomacy, not arms. Especially western countries and still more the USA...

[Covenant]

Greg, I think you missed my use of the word potentially. Left to their own resources we all know what would happen in Afganistan if extremists gain power. I agree it is a really difficult task to graft systems into place so that people can leave reasonable lives but the alternative is to turn our backs and pretend what happens is ok.
Themis hit the nail on the head-protecting the Gulf states is a major factor in why we are there.