If you had £550 to spend on a Tonearm?

[mikeyb]

Hi,

I am seriously considering the offer that Ammonite Acoustics has on an Isokinetik Silver Melody arm and Collar at £550 for my Technics 1210 turntable.

Now if you were spending that kind of cash would you go for it or buy something second hand, obviously this would mean being able to buy something worth a lot more.

There's a few nice arms on eBay from Japan that come in at this budget but adding taxes etc makes them a little dearer.

I should mention that I'm currently running a ZU Denon 103 on the standard arm but have been advised to check out a Zyx Bloom cartridge as a better alternative so it would need to be compatible with either cartridge, apologies if this isn't possible as I know bugger all about mass etc.

Any thoughts/advice?

Thanks,

Mike.

[mikeyb]

Just realised I asked the same question a few weeks ago, oops.

[CageyH]

If buying second hand, make sure you have enough to get it fettled by someone like J7.

[walpurgis]

I'd spend less and get a Mission 774. I had mine on a Techie some years ago and it was a decent combination. I still have the 774 and use a ZYX R50 Bloom in it or a ZYX R100H2 or ZYX R100 Yatra, depending on what takes my fancy. The arm works great with MCs.

[mikeyb]

I did consider the 774 so it's on my list ;)

[Ali Tait]

+1 for the 774. Get Johnnie to rewire it with Ikeda silver wire. You'll then have a world class arm for not a great deal IMHO.

You're welcome to come and have a listen Mike.

[trio leo]

there is an Audio Technica 1503mkiii on fleabay for £380, I have one and I think it is very well made, an ease to use.

cheers Al

[Ammonite Audio]

I should mention that I'm currently running a ZU Denon 103 on the standard arm but have been advised to check out a Zyx Bloom cartridge as a better alternative so it would need to be compatible with either cartridge, apologies if this isn't possible as I know bugger all about mass etc.

The Jelco arms give you the advantage of easily configuring effective mass, by using different headshells, but the Zu Denon already has some extra mass in the alloy body, so it would work very nicely in the SM-750.


I'd spend less and get a Mission 774. I had mine on a Techie some years ago and it was a decent combination. I still have the 774 and use a ZYX R50 Bloom in it or a ZYX R100H2 or ZYX R100 Yatra, depending on what takes my fancy. The arm works great with MCs.

The Mission 774 is a very low mass design so it does rather limit cartridge choice to those with medium/high to high compliance. It is possible to tweak its mass, of course, but you can't fight very hard against the laws of physics as it applies to tonearm/cartridge mass and suspension compliance. The database over at Vinyl Engine is great for assessing this sort of thing.

[mikeyb]

Ali, heard yours when I came along with my amp, so I know what it's like, I just never considered one for the Techie, if I had I'd have bought one by now.

I see they tend to hit £300 or so on eBay which I know isn't cheap, but if it's the only way to get one then so be it.

How much was the rewire?

Will it suit the ZU at 13g plus headshell ?

Mike.

[montesquieu]

Personally I'd go for the Jelco, far more versatile in terms of cartridge it will accept (and cartridge swapping due to the headshell arrangement). The replacement collar lifts performance up a big notch and if you wanted to take it to the nth degree send it to Johnny at Audio Origami to rewire in silver and fettle the bearings, it's a £1000+ beater witih that done. I had a Jelco arm + Ammonite collar + AO rewire and bearing fettle and it punched well above its weight and was only replaced with £1400 worth of Fidelity Research FR64S.

In my opinion that's a better route than either the Mission (though they have their fans and are great with higher compliance cartridges, they don't work well with many of the lower compliance cartridges that are in vogue these days - including your Denon, which will work very well on the Jelco especially with a wee bit of mass added) or any old Japanese arm in this price range - for £550 I'd say the Jelco package is unbeatable.

EDIT - oops I see I'm making the same points as Hugo's post above. That'll teach me to jump to the bottom. He's spot in in my opinion.

[walpurgis]

The Mission 774 is a very low mass design so it does rather limit cartridge choice to those with medium/high to high compliance. It is possible to tweak its mass, of course, but you can't fight very hard against the laws of physics as it applies to tonearm/cartridge mass and suspension compliance. The database over at Vinyl Engine is great for assessing this sort of thing.

That's not quite how it works with the 774 Hugo. It is a low mass design, but the fluid damping allows it to be used with cartridges of any compliance. I've been using a 774 for well over thirty years with low compliance Deccas and MCs and had excellent results. The sound quality from the Mission arm is superb.


The 774 fits straight on the SL-1210/SL-1200 turntables if you use an SME mounting plate.

[Ali Tait]

Yes Mike, but that was before the rewire, and the new cart.

I'm using a Benz Gullwing SLR on mine at 12.2g. Sounds fabulous. I have had to tape some pound coins to the counterweight, however there are some heavier counterweights available on eBay.

I've bought a 12" wand for mine, but the armboard will need surgery before I can fit it.

The rewire is admittedly not the cheapest at 325, but well worth it IMHO.

[walpurgis]

I see Tom has made observations similar Hugo's about the 774's low mass. I'll confirm again that the arm will work with cartridges of any compliance. The low mass is not an issue.

[Ali Tait]

I've had a VDH retipped 103 on mine. Sounded great.

[montesquieu]

I see Tom has made observations similar Hugo's about the 774's low mass. I'll confirm again that the arm will work with cartridges of any compliance. The low mass is not an issue.

I have my doubts but accept what you are saying as I have no direct experience of the damping arrnagement on the 774. I would still go for the Jelco for reasons of flexibility and the overall package. I'm a big fan of vintage kit as you know and no stranger to restoring and fettling it but in this instance I would take the Jelco - it's a great match for the Zu 103.

[walpurgis]

Not done the comparison. But I'd back the sound quality from my 774 against any Jelco.

I have compared it to a variety of Japanese arms with removable headshells and they did not come close. Neither did the Ittok I used to own, which sounded cruder and coarser.

I am biased of course, as I have three Missions and love the sound quality, but if I heard something better at a sane price I'd consider it.

Until relatively recently the 774 sold for maybe £150 and was not 'on the radar' for most (bit like Goldring MCs). Prices are picking up though (might be my fault :)).

Many people just dismiss them as not being a serious contender, simply because they don't cost thousands and don't have the fine shiny finish of SME or Japanese arms. Wrong!! Properly set up, a 774 will run with the best. Much in the same way that the great potential of the Lenco L75 turntable is finally being appreciated.

[karma67]

Not done the comparison. But I'd back the sound quality from my 774 against any Jelco.

I have compared it to a variety of Japanese arms with removable headshells and they did not come close. Neither did the Ittok I used to own, which sounded cruder and coarser.

I am biased of course, as I have three Missions and love the sound quality, but if I heard something better at a sane price I'd consider it.
.

went from the 774 to the ittok and to be fair i wouldn't say they were far apart at all,i certainly didn't think, "shit! bad move",but then you do say you are biased :)
i payed £150 for mine about a year ago,you wont pay that now for a good one.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi,

I am seriously considering the offer that Ammonite Acoustics has on an Isokinetik Silver Melody arm and Collar at £550 for my Technics 1210 turntable.

Now if you were spending that kind of cash would you go for it or buy something second hand, obviously this would mean being able to buy something worth a lot more.

There's a few nice arms on eBay from Japan that come in at this budget but adding taxes etc makes them a little dearer.

I should mention that I'm currently running a ZU Denon 103 on the standard arm but have been advised to check out a Zyx Bloom cartridge as a better alternative so it would need to be compatible with either cartridge, apologies if this isn't possible as I know bugger all about mass etc.

Any thoughts/advice?

Thanks,

Mike.

For the Technics its a no brainer, just go buy it.

[walpurgis]

went from the 774 to the ittok and to be fair i wouldn't say they were far apart at all,i certainly didn't think, "shit! bad move",but then you do say you are biased :)

Actually, I was using a Decca London Export grey at the time I sold the Ittok. I don't think Ittoks do Deccas very well. It was OK with the SPU, but so was the 774.

[montesquieu]

Not done the comparison. But I'd back the sound quality from my 774 against any Jelco.

I have compared it to a variety of Japanese arms with removable headshells and they did not come close. Neither did the Ittok I used to own, which sounded cruder and coarser.

I am biased of course, as I have three Missions and love the sound quality, but if I heard something better at a sane price I'd consider it.

Until relatively recently the 774 sold for maybe £150 and was not 'on the radar' for most (bit like Goldring MCs). Prices are picking up though (might be my fault :)).

Many people just dismiss them as not being a serious contender, simply because they don't cost thousands and don't have the fine shiny finish of SME or Japanese arms. Wrong!! Properly set up, a 774 will run with the best. Much in the same way that the great potential of the Lenco L75 turntable is finally being appreciated.


Hmmm ah hae ma doots, it's all getting a bit fan-boy (but then again that's routine round here and we are all guilty :) ) ... the Jelco I had was rewired in Kondo cable and I had J7 fettle the bearing so hardly standard, but did a fab job with a Koetsu Rosewood, assorted SPUs and an AN Io (with suitable heavyweight headshell and counterweight). I also stuck an Audio Note AN-V cable on it.

Not the last word admittedly, but as I say in my opinion you'd have to spend 2-3 times the outlay to beat it on an arm with similar flexibility (as I eventually did). I run stereo, mono & 78 MC cartridges and a couple of low-compliance MMs as well, for me anything without removable headshell is a complete PIA.

I think the Jelco is a no-brainer for what the OP is after. Not least the fact that you can go and buy one after all rather than waiting for one on ebay, then the inevitable restoration project ...

[Beverast]

I am not very experienced with tonearms, so take my suggestion with a pinch of salt, but I really like my Audiomods tonearm. I had it mounted on a Technics SL 1210 and was very happy with the results, so much so that I have not felt the need to upgrade. The Isokinetic does not come with a tonearm cable, so taking that into consideration I personally would go for a new Audiomods MKV at £745. If it is strictly £550 I would get the Classic version at £455 and save the rest for vinyl.

Jeff, owner of Audiomods, also has a cartridge compatabilty section and mentions the ZYX and Denon cartridges: http://www.audiomods.co.uk/cartridgechoice.pdf

[mikeyb]

Lots to think on. Many thanks for all the info, pity I'm working most of this week which won't give me much time to search.

I've a couple more items to sell to help cover any costs, I might even sell my Claymore mk2 amp and add that to the pot as well.

[mikeyb]

Yes Mike, but that was before the rewire, and the new cart.

I'm using a Benz Gullwing SLR on mine at 12.2g. Sounds fabulous. I have had to tape some pound coins to the counterweight, however there are some heavier counterweights available on eBay.

I've bought a 12" wand for mine, but the armboard will need surgery before I can fit it.

The rewire is admittedly not the cheapest at 325, but well worth it IMHO.
I've 2 x £1 coins and a £2 coin taped to my arm just now to try and balance the Zu, if yours now sounds better it must be special indeed. Nice one.

[Audio Advent]

Now if you were spending that kind of cash would you go for it or buy something second hand, obviously this would mean being able to buy something worth a lot more.


If something is worth £550 secondhand then it's value is.... £550. You're not able to buy anything worth more unless you find a bargain.

That said - perhaps this is what you mean- your new arm will depreciate in value. Might be better to pick up a used version of that arm instead.

[Ali Tait]

Yes, the rewire is well worth it, whatever tonearm you get.

[Audio Advent]

If buying second hand, make sure you have enough to get it fettled by someone like J7.

I disagree!

ONLY do that if you feel there's something wrong with it after buying. I don't see the point of having something sent away for a refurb if it's fine - it's likely a poor value gain in sound quality if there's nothing wrong at all. Many people DO think like this and so the same arm gets sent off for fettling every time it changes hands - some will already have been rewired and checked over - doing it yet again will waste money.

If the arm is working fine when you get it, you can factor in spending more on it at a later date - don't waste your current budget and be forced to get a lesser arm because of that.

[walpurgis]

I'm inclined to concur.

If you buy a used arm, try it and have a good listen to what it can do before just sending it off for work. Unless of course there are obvious faults or wear. Or specific and proper upgrades are intended.

I must have probably owned the best part of fifty arms over the years and have never sent one away for servicing. But then, I do my own work. Having said that, very few have been in need of attention (upgrades aside). Apart from the dastardly Rega R200 which always seems to have an irreplaceable broken bias belt or one that is about to give way. There are ways to get them working again but it's not worth the aggro.

[Audio Advent]

I've 2 x £1 coins and a £2 coin taped to my arm just now to try and balance the Zu, if yours now sounds better it must be special indeed. Nice one.

Haha - I just started to read this and immediately imagined the hair on your arm flattened by bits of sellotape with coins under it.... then it turns out to be a tonearm.

[allthingsanalogue]

Easy, Roksan NIMA.

[CageyH]

I disagree!

ONLY do that if you feel there's something wrong with it after buying. I don't see the point of having something sent away for a refurb if it's fine - it's likely a poor value gain in sound quality if there's nothing wrong at all. Many people DO think like this and so the same arm gets sent off for fettling every time it changes hands - some will already have been rewired and checked over - doing it yet again will waste money.

If the arm is working fine when you get it, you can factor in spending more on it at a later date - don't waste your current budget and be forced to get a lesser arm because of that.

The point I was trying to make was make sure you have enough to get it fettled if buying second hand - just in case it turns out to need work. The OP may be lucky and get an arm that works fine, but with a vintage arm it may need a few tweaks to perform at it's best.

[montesquieu]

Easy, Roksan NIMA.


Is that the one that looks like a dust bug?

http://www.teenagerockopera.com/imgs/aug08/dustbug.jpg

Seriously though it's not a bad arm and worked well for me on an LP12 a long time ago ... but not ideal for any 103 based cartridge, it's just not massy enough.

[allthingsanalogue]

There's a chap on PF who reckons the 103 really sings on his NIMA on the Radius 5.

[montesquieu]

There's a chap on PF who reckons the 103 really sings on his NIMA on the Radius 5.

Meanwhile in the real world .... ye cannae change the laws of physics.

[paulf-2007]

I am not very experienced with tonearms, so take my suggestion with a pinch of salt, but I really like my Audiomods tonearm. I had it mounted on a Technics SL 1210 and was very happy with the results, so much so that I have not felt the need to upgrade. The Isokinetic does not come with a tonearm cable, so taking that into consideration I personally would go for a new Audiomods MKV at £745. If it is strictly £550 I would get the Classic version at £455 and save the rest for vinyl.

Jeff, owner of Audiomods, also has a cartridge compatabilty section and mentions the ZYX and Denon cartridges: http://www.audiomods.co.uk/cartridgechoice.pdf
I second that, the Audiomods is very versatile in that it comes with headshell weights to adjust the mass and lead shims to add mass to the counterweight. Jeff is great bloke to deal with.

[mikeyb]

Yeah, had a look at Audiomods site. Still trying to see if I can pick up something second hand, nearly bought an Origin arm that Fanthorpes were selling the other day but I was unsure if it was any good for the 1210, it sold a couple of days later so that was that decision made lol.

[topoxforddoc]

If you did sell a few more bit, maybe a Transfi terminator T3Pro. I've fancied one for a while. No problem with matching arm to cart, as there a re number of different mass arm wands.

[mikeyb]

If you did sell a few more bit, maybe a Transfi terminator T3Pro. I've fancied one for a while. No problem with matching arm to cart, as there a re number of different mass arm wands.
I'll have a look at that one too, thanks.

[Ali Tait]

Aye, fancied having a go with one of those too.

[mikeyb]

Blooming heck aren't they building the new Forth Road Bridge with something similar lol.

Looks very interesting and not expensive either. Anyone tried one on a 1210?

[montesquieu]

If you did sell a few more bit, maybe a Transfi terminator T3Pro. I've fancied one for a while. No problem with matching arm to cart, as there a re number of different mass arm wands.

Remember this is going on a Techie ... would be an utterly mad combination in my opinion.

For the money the Jelco is a no-brainer here, I've run one with Koetsu, high end SPUs and an AN Io and it worked very well with all of them (in a heavy headshell where appropriate and with a matching counterweight which you can buyoff the shelf). For a low compliance cartridge it's fit and forget. Many of the other suggestions are either borderline unsuitable or high fiddle factor. Life's too short.

[Audio Advent]

"Mad" as in good mad? Looks good to me!

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/20876/Terminator_plays_Miles_Davis1.jpg


My recommendation for £550 or less, if a little staid in comparison to the above, is an Alphason HR100. It's certainly a great arm - my deck's an Alphason so obviously a great match with that - and I think it would work find on a Techy.

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/tygersmoke/Turntables%20etc/Alphason%20HR100S/PB180028_zps6883ba1a.jpg

[mikeyb]

Thanks for the further suggestions, how about The Wand?

Anyone tried one?

[YNWaN]

I would buy a black Linn Ittok (the colour is just a personal choice).

Oh, I've just seen the pic above - a lot less common than the Ittok but the HR100s is fantastic (I have one as well as the Naim Aro I normally use).

I've never tried a Wand but I would like to.

[mikeyb]

There's a Xenon version on this TT here, is it the same as the Alphason one or is it a cheaper version?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=351714123998&alt=web

[montesquieu]

There's a Xenon version on this TT here, is it the same as the Alphason one or is it a cheaper version?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=351714123998&alt=web

Xenon is in theory a level below the MCS100 though I don't know what the differences are, I suspect just the silver wiring in MCS.

Superb arms, with a caveat that a lot of them need rewiring by now (though Johnnie at Audio Origami can sort them out). I had an MCS100 (again) on my LP12, was better than the Nima that preceeded it or the Ittok MkII that preceeded that, indeed I might well have stopped at the Alphason had I not gone and heard a Rock Reference with Excalbur, which was a revelation after more than 20 years of Linn and sent me off in a totally new direction. (Linn => Rock Ref => Garrard = Voyd 3 motor = TD124, with a few DDs and souped up Lencos scattered in there as well).

I've also heard the Alphason Xenon used to good effect on both a TD124 (indeed I think Non-Smoking Man might have been selling one here at some stage off his TD124) and with a Voyd. Great arm, though a bit lightweight for lower-compliance cartridges.

[Spectral Morn]

There's a Xenon version on this TT here, is it the same as the Alphason one or is it a cheaper version?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=351714123998&alt=web

Xenon in my opinion isn't as good an arm, not even close to an HR100S

[mikeyb]

Ok thanks again for more info, still looking lol

[Ali Tait]

You'll stop looking once you've tried the Mission.. :-)

[mikeyb]

You'll stop looking once you've tried the Mission.. :-)
I was just thinking that about an hour ago lol.

I'll need to find an SME plate to fit it to.

[walpurgis]

You'll stop looking once you've tried the Mission.. :-)

;) I was tempted to say something like that, but I do go on about them a bit.

[mikeyb]

;) I was tempted to say something like that, but I do go on about them a bit.
Not at all lol


https://youtu.be/yDVCWKx0hIM

I'm searching ever day for one, but nothing about at all :(

[mikeyb]

Like the look of this

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=301933548845&alt=web

No idea if pricey but looks mint.

Thoughts?

[karma67]

its on the high side,i paid £425 for mine.id say budget for £500 on an ittok. great arm!

[walpurgis]

Like the look of this

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=301933548845&alt=web

No idea if pricey but looks mint.

Thoughts?

I had one identical. I was never quite happy with the sound and it certainly did not get along with my Deccas. I 'upgraded' to the 774 and found exactly the sound I'd wanted.

[mikeyb]

I had one identical. I was never quite happy with the sound and it certainly did not get along with my Deccas. I 'upgraded' to the 774 and found exactly the sound I'd wanted.
774 still favourite then, ok how about this

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=252251589792&alt=web

Or this one?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=131789674490&alt=web

:)

[montesquieu]

774 still favourite then, ok how about this

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=252251589792&alt=web

Or this one?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=131789674490&alt=web

:)

Always fancied a shot at a Micro-Seiki MA505 but never had one - bit of a gap in my list! Never got my head around the various versions (I understand some, like the Ortofon As212, are up-cycled from cheaper bundled decks or musicentres and I suspect might not have all features as standard). I'm not sure in standard form it will balance out SPU sort of weights but a heavier counterweight can be made (speedysteve would be your best bet) and from there the dynamic balance arrangement (similar to FR64) will take up the slack. Must make the time to investigate. I would say the MA505 has potential.

[Clive197]

Like the look of this

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=301933548845&alt=web

No idea if pricey but looks mint.

Thoughts?

That's more like the top end price of an LVIII, which was a much better arm. I've owned both and instantly noticed differences in SQ and sound staging.

[DAVEDWACK]

Ok thanks again for more info, still looking lol

Hi Mike,

I've PM'd you about my Alphason HR100mcs which is surplus to requirements.

Cheers.....Dave

[mikeyb]

Hi Mike,

I've PM'd you about my Alphason HR100mcs which is surplus to requirements.

Cheers.....Dave
That's put the cat amongst the pigeons, I've just ordered an armboard to try Ali's 774.

I'm going to start arm wars here..... and ask which is better for the 1210, the 774 or the HR100mcs?

Dave I'll get back to you asap.

Mike.

[DAVEDWACK]

When I purchased the the Alphason 7 years ago it replaced my then current arm......yes a mission 774 which had been on my TD124 since I'd purchased it from new at KJ Leisuresound a good number of years previously.

So does that imply that the Alphason might be a better arm than the 774.....hmmm a bit delicate. I probably think so (always been a bit of a fence sitter) but there are other things to consider of course.

As for better for a 1210....no real experience of a 1210 so can't comment, I'll leave that to all the 1210 users. I preferred the Alpason in front of both the 774 and an Ittok, which I also used.

Cheers....Dave