View Full Version : Computer audio vs. traditional hi-fi test at AVI HQ
Guys,
As you will no doubt be aware from the current on-going discussion, I have proposed a test for the above and it has been suggested to hold the event at AVI HQ in Nailsworth. I presume that Ashley will be providing the necessary refreshments on the day ;)
What I'm looking for is a list of volunteers to judge the outcome of the event. I will be bringing my Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 CDP to represent the 'traditional' side of hi-fi, and Tony Sallis of Coherent Systems will also be providing some alternative equipment together with a full measurement suite. Ashley and JC will be comparing it to a Mac Book, and other computer sources, in an AVI system featuring ADM9s.
Therefore could you please put your name forward if you would like to attend the event as one of the panel of judges and suggest a possible date for it to take place? I myself will not be able to participate until sometime next month, so suggested dates in May are what we're looking for. A detailed report of the event and its outcome, including pictures, will be reported on the forum. We would ask that all judges are prepared to do their own individual write-up of the event including their opinions of the outcome, and participate as far as necessary in the subsequent discussion of the event on the forum.
If anyone would like to discuss further details of the event and the plan of action for the day, or if you have any queries or suggestions, please post them here. Ashley and myself will then collate the information, work out a schedule, and admin will inform all members of the final details for the event in due course.
Thank you.
Marco.
Steve Toy
17-04-2008, 12:52
Marco,
Is this really a good idea? Perhaps ADM9s are not sufficiently revealing to show the real differences at source. I think you could be walking into a trap. Neutral territory would be good although having Mr C. on hand with some proper kit should help your case.
I certainly can't be judge. I'll either betray you or I'll be accused of impartiality.
Who's taking the pics?
Count me in. Free most of the month, except for the 6th and the last week.
I'll bring me Nikon, gum-shield and hearing aid.
Ashley James
17-04-2008, 15:08
Hang on a minute!!! We're a manufacturer, the dems I do are at my home and you're asking me to entertain a load of fanatic supporters of "alternative technologies" who aren't sympathetic to the studio monitor approach.
I cannot set aside that much time, but I will happily see anyone who is curious. One person for an exploratory visit to see what the likely reaction will be.
Here's an excerpt from a customer that's self explanatory:
Well, consider a pair sold! Jarno Granö (the name of the fella) drove 50 miles on his motorcycle from Helsinki to have a listen and after 3 hours had a very hard time leaving =). He told me he's been going through most shops in Helsinki and heard both passive and active sets, but all sounded constrained or muffled compared to the ADM9s. Even some expensive pro active monitors couldn't touch the open upper mids of these, he thought, the least coloured speakers he recalled ever having heard. The sub was off for most of the time, even though he likes snappy stuff like Air and Yello etc. I have to admit that at some point even I thought the sub was on when it wasn't... I'm sending you a file with really snapy stuff, though hardly worth calling it music...
I don't mid explaining why we do what we do and what we see as the disadvantages of the approach taken by subjectivists, but I don't want a house full of bigots down here to prove to themselves that ADM9s are crap and vinyl is nirvana. I don't meed them I've got plenty of people buying them without even bothering to hear them first!!! And yes they are really delighted with the sound.
Ash:smoking:
griffo104
17-04-2008, 15:18
I'd like to attend, May isn't the best month for me so best to come up with some dates and I'll see if I can be available - I'm away for 2 weeks.
edited as I've just seen Ash's post.
In that case why not do it in a neutral venue ? As mentioned in the original thread I'm not in favour of cd nor computer based technologies so have no axe to grind with regards to either of them.
Sorry Ash..
Just assumed the arrangements had been made.
Perhaps a better call would be for Marco to go down and report back...after all he seems to have taken this to heart.
Steve W
PS Funds permitting, I will be a customer, so careful who you describe as bigots please.
Ash, you need to have a word with Johnny boy about this.
If we're going to do this test we need to do it right - no half-way measures!
You assert that computer audio sources such as Mac Books, etc, are better than classic Red book CDPs such as my Sony, and I say you're talking 'mince' (;)) so we need to thrash this out once and for all as objectively and professionally as possible to prove your point or not, otherwise you stop mentioning it on the forum - and by "it" I don't mean ADM9s, just that your way of doing things is automatically better!
So have a chat with 'wee Brummy' and see what you come up with.
I say bring it on no matter where or how. 'Neutral venues' don't bother me because something is either good or it isn't, and I know just how good the Sony is...
The ball's in your court, amigo!
Marco.
Ahh, I can understand Ash's position. I think he doesn't want a hostile mob, baying for AVI's blood, and ending up with an adversorial situation.
I think what he had in mind Marco, was for you and I to compare sony -v- laptop on adm9's and to state our opinions of the result. Maybe we could also try the big test amps if there's time.
Then if the whole thing didn't turn out to be shambolic we could do a repeat with more people at another venue.
I thing what Ash is concerned about is opening his doors to a trojan horse. He has big valuable commercial issues at stake here and we're just pissing about with our hobby.
I reckon it would be ok for me and Marco to try it out and see how it goes.
Whaddya think Marco and Ash ?
Sounds fine by me - I just wish you had said before that you wanted to keep it more 'low key' before I put it into the public domain! ;)
Marco.
Maybe Ash has a fair bit on his plate at the moment, we'll see what he has to say.
Marco, is your work and your residence the same place and which houses your spendors ?
Why, are you planning to break in and steal them? :lol:
Marco.
Ashley James
17-04-2008, 18:36
Sorry Ash..
Just assumed the arrangements had been made.
Perhaps a better call would be for Marco to go down and report back...after all he seems to have taken this to heart.
Steve W
PS Funds permitting, I will be a customer, so careful who you describe as bigots please.
Steve
You're more than welcome anytime, just phone and make sure I can see you.
Ash
So what are we doing about the test then, Ash?
JC has made some suggestions that are ok with me, but the ball's in your court :smoking:
Marco.
Ashley James
18-04-2008, 16:35
You're coming to see us, having an expensive lunch (between £3 and £4) and a listen to ADM9's with and without Subs in two different domestic environments with different acoustics. You'll also hear some new and unannounced products that we'd appreciate your comments on and possibly even Trios if it's practical.
Next we'll demonstrate amplifiers of similar performance but ascending power outputs, starting at 30 WPC Class A and working through over 100, then over 200 and finally 6 or 700 Watts RMS, so that you can see the effect it has at a fixed and reasonable volume level.
All in all it will be a fun day with people who are far more friendly than you might expect given the exchanges on this and other Forums!
Once you've done this, you're free to rush back to your computer and tell AOS members what you think without fear of recrimination.
If you're impressed and this results in others wanting a similar experience, we'd be delighted to have a whole Coach party, so if you'd let me have your credit card number ASAP, I'll get it organised!
Ash
(not the enemy)
Sounds fine to me apart from the credit card bit :eyebrows:
How will my Sony transport and DAC be integrated into the system with ADM9s, given that there is a DAC built in, and which computer sources will be used as a comparison?
Marco.
Bring your sony cdp inc dac, the adm9's have analogue line in to the internal pre-amp, with r/c level available if the output from your cdp is fixed level.
I'll bring my macbook as well as having Ash's stuff so the adm9's will pickup both our library's wirelessly.
I'll make up a red book cd with exactly the same tracks on it at full bit rate so that you can put it in your cdp and we can get a direct comparison, so you employ your "bat-ears"
Bring your laptop and a couple of cd's as well.
JC
Now this is of interest to me guys !
I would certainly be interested in coming along for the ride and experiencing Ashley, JC's and Marco's equipment. I guess I'd be usefull because I have not heard either Marco's or the AVI equipment before so will be completly unbiased in my opinion.
Let me know if I can,
Paul.
P.S. Can't let anyone have a Credit Card I am afraid as I don't have one :(
I think on this occasion Ash's rules apply, he's said if it goes ok, we can do something on a larger scale for anyone interested. I think it will depend a bit on whether Marco thinks it would be worthwhile when he "reports back" to the forum.
Ashley has had some heavy and antagonistic criticism on this forum, so you can't really blame him for treating this situation carefully till the various parties know each other better.
It has been my experience that actual face to face meetings are much better than forum interaction, when differing viewpoints are to be considered. Much can be learned on these occasions.
It would be very good if at a later date, and provided people had sufficient interest to hold an "open day" or "forum meet" or something like that. Provided those who think that a "lynch mob" is more use, are not in an overwhelming majority.
Ali Tait
18-04-2008, 23:05
That's why I like the other forums I frequent.We all know each other personally.This is a good thing,we all know where we're coming from. :-)
Steve Toy
19-04-2008, 03:31
Such forums can be a bit cliquey, something we try to avoid here. We'd rather have an open forum that grows, changes, adapts and makes new members who may become future acquaintances welcome.
I think on this occasion Ash's rules apply, he's said if it goes ok, we can do something on a larger scale for anyone interested. I think it will depend a bit on whether Marco thinks it would be worthwhile when he "reports back" to the forum.
Ash's rules definitely apply because it's his home that's being used to stage the event :)
Like I said before, I will arrive with an open mind, as I always do with these things, and judge honestly on what I hear. There are no agendas as far as I'm concerned.
Ashley has had some heavy and antagonistic criticism on this forum, so you can't really blame him for treating this situation carefully till the various parties know each other better.
Bollocks. With respect to Ashley, he's had nothing of the sort. When you're as 'robust' and extremely controversial with your viewpoints as he is (and I have no problem with that whatsoever) then you have to be prepared to accept similarly 'robust' replies in return! Ashley has been treated fairly and squarely here, if not we would have intervened and done something about it. He's a big boy and can certainly give as good as he gets!
It has been my experience that actual face to face meetings are much better than forum interaction, when differing viewpoints are to be considered. Much can be learned on these occasions.
I totally agree. There's something about computer keyboards that brings out the worse in us sometimes (me included!) maybe it's because we think too much before we type, and therefore get more deeply into things than is advisable, whereas face-to-face one simply says what one feels in the spur of the moment, which has the effect of sentiments being expressed as more genuine, and then of course our facial expressions add a more humane touch to conversations which the written word can never do.
It would be very good if at a later date, and provided people had sufficient interest to hold an "open day" or "forum meet" or something like that. Provided those who think that a "lynch mob" is more use, are not in an overwhelming majority.
There will be no 'lynch mob' on this forum. I can guarantee you of that, as we simply wouldn't allow it. Any praise that's due for ADM9s or any other AVI equipment I hear will be duly conveyed, and any criticism will be informed and constructive. This will be an a learning opportunity for both parties, as I don't have major experience with computer audio, so this will be a chance for me to assess it at 'the cutting edge', if of course AVI's way of doing things is as good as they make out ;) and I'm sure I can also surprise them with just how good my Sony transport and DAC are. I'm not sure how long it's been since Ashley or JC have heard a really top-notch Red Book CDP, as they do all their listening via computers these days, so the results will be very interesting indeed :smoking:
Marco.
Ashley James
19-04-2008, 08:03
Marco, I have an AVI CD player that I'm certain is as good as the best (and most expensive CD) since we've been able to compare it with the DAC manufacturers' evaluation boards. I can also plug it into the ADM9s analogue input and compare it with the internal DAC playing off an Airport Express. I've also had a variety of other makes of expensive CD player here to do the same and very very few are as good. There is no difference between files played from the Computer and the CD player.
I also have an all-discrete, mini Class A preamplifier which produces up to 60 mA of current and is utterly transparent and to go with it. I have Amp-Paks we offer as an upgrade to our Two-Way Passive speakers, I have our V2 power Amp that I am very confident of and I have two 675 Watt RMS Monos which we might have produced. We decided not to because they'd have been over £5000 each and not sold in large enough quantities for the factory. If things aren't made in good quantities, mistakes get made and shipping 40 Kilo Monos around to repair them is risky and expensive.
I'm sorry if I implied that people on this Forum had been particularly hostile, when that's not the case really, most have been extremely tolerant and their frustration with endless AVI chat is completely understandable. Certain others on another Forum were unbelievably nasty though, which I think is stupid. Most people are surprisingly kind and generous when you meet them so, even if I do hate turntables, I'd like to think I might still be friends with everyone, even Steve!
Oooh, I dunno about Steve :)
Seems like a nice boy though ;)
anthonyTD
19-04-2008, 18:30
Marco, I have an AVI CD player that I'm certain is as good as the best (and most expensive CD) since we've been able to compare it with the DAC manufacturers' evaluation boards. I can also plug it into the ADM9s analogue input and compare it with the internal DAC playing off an Airport Express. I've also had a variety of other makes of expensive CD player here to do the same and very very few are as good. There is no difference between files played from the Computer and the CD player.
I also have an all-discrete, mini Class A preamplifier which produces up to 60 mA of current and is utterly transparent and to go with it. I have Amp-Paks we offer as an upgrade to our Two-Way Passive speakers, I have our V2 power Amp that I am very confident of and I have two 675 Watt RMS Monos which we might have produced. We decided not to because they'd have been over £5000 each and not sold in large enough quantities for the factory. If things aren't made in good quantities, mistakes get made and shipping 40 Kilo Monos around to repair them is risky and expensive.
I'm sorry if I implied that people on this Forum had been particularly hostile, when that's not the case really, most have been extremely tolerant and their frustration with endless AVI chat is completely understandable. Certain others on another Forum were unbelievably nasty though, which I think is stupid. Most people are surprisingly kind and generous when you meet them so, even if I do hate turntables, I'd like to think I might still be friends with everyone, even Steve!
I too would like to let the good people on this forum understand that like ash,
i mean no malice towards anyone including ash, jc, its good to have debates, even though some seem do get a bit close to the bone sometimes, its just a clash of diffrent peoples ideals, and a bit of leg pulling thrown in to lighten the mood a little. but i would like to think that if we were all in a room together we would find some common ground between us...;)
Ali Tait
19-04-2008, 22:01
Some may be,but not the ones I'm talking about.Quite the opposite.
Steve if you've flogged your amp, does that mean your avatar will change ?
Should I ask Ash to send you a suitably small pic of the unmentionable objects ? :)
Steve Toy
19-04-2008, 23:25
My avatar should be changing after today.
Don't get cheeky or I'll spank your botty, metaphorically ;)
Marco.
Ewww..... Don't think I'd like to watch that one! :o
That's why I said metaphorically!
He's about 70, or so I've been told - not that age matters in the somewhat bizarre context of this discussion :bog:
Marco.
Ashley James
21-04-2008, 12:24
So is Max Moseley!
Just to update everyone... This has now been arranged for 23rd May where I will visit AVI HQ to see Ashley and JC and hear the wonders of ADM9s, MacBooks and Apple TVs. I will be foisting my lovely Sony CDP and other classic delights on the hapless 'dynamic duo'.
A full report of the event will appear on the forum :)
Marco.
Marco,
I wouldn't bother..... You'll never get them to admit anything other than AVI 'is the way'.....
This is a no-win situation.
I'm sure it'll be a pleasant day, Mike. By all accounts Ash and JC are nice guys in person, and the curiosity factor regarding ADM9s is hard to resist! :eyebrows:
The word "pub" was also mentioned in a recent dialogue with Ashley, so needs must, I guess :cool:
I'm going through this pain for you guys!
Marco.
evilpsycho666
23-04-2008, 16:13
Marco,
I wouldn't bother..... You'll never get them to admit anything other than AVI 'is the way'.....
This is a no-win situation.
I don't think he should bother either, hell have all the indepedance of a celtic supporter in the rangers crowd at a scottish cup final.
Filterlab
23-04-2008, 20:49
I don't think he should bother either, hell have all the indepedance of a celtic supporter in the rangers crowd at a scottish cup final.
Forgive me for not understanding that sentence, what has independence got to do with a listening session?
Anyway, being a Mac audio advocate and being over the moon with using a Mac coupled to a decent DAC as a source, I'm really looking forward to the result of the listening test. I haven't heard the ADM9s myself so I can't comment on them, but I am familiar with the value for money and downright amp/driver matching and active crossover advantages of active loudspeakers from my studio days.
I'm not sure how they'll stack up to some top whack hi-fi, but I'd be prepared to bet that they'd sound better than a similarly priced integrated amp / loudspeaker package. Certainly the reviews are strong anyway. :)
He's a troll, Rob, and being watched very carefully..!
Marco.
Steve Toy
24-04-2008, 00:40
I'd like to ban Mr 666 but not his IP address so as to give him the chance to return with an ID that we may recognise.
Filterlab
24-04-2008, 08:04
I'd like to ban Mr 666 but not his IP address so as to give him the chance to return with an ID that we may recognise.
Do it mate, you're an admin. :)
Steve Toy
24-04-2008, 10:58
Done. Whoever posted as "evilpsycho666" is free to re-register under a more friendly username.
Filterlab
24-04-2008, 11:19
Good man! :)
Done. Whoever posted as "evilpsycho666" is free to re-register under a more friendly username.Thanks Steve
I think Blue Max is a friendly username.
Even more friendlier to any flyers out here! ;)
Filterlab
24-04-2008, 20:24
Certainly better than 'The Red Baron'.
Marco,
I used to live 3 miles from Ash's factory only 35 now, would love to come along as well, promise I will be a good boy :)
I don't have a problem with that, Tony - in fact it would be good, but you'd need to clear it first with Ashley :)
On reflection, I think it's probably a good idea to have someone else there as a 'witness' who can confirm what observations were made on the day.
Marco.
Chris Frost
26-04-2008, 08:24
This has now been arranged for 23rd May Oh balls!
As I've said before, I'd have loved to have had a listen to the ADM9s. It's Sod's Law that the 23rd is the only date where I definitely can't get away. My 4yr old lad starts his Half Term break and I'm doing Dad duty that day.
Marco, I could have brought the van over and made it easier to transport the Spendors (if they are going) as well as having the craic on the way down and back.
Bugger, bugger, bugger :doh:
It seems like poor old Ashley has got cold feet and has copped out of our meeting.
For your amusement this is an email I've just received (after a number of previous email exchanges where Ashley was arrogantly trying to tell me, in no uncertain terms, how others and I hear hi-fi is indisputably 'wrong'):
Science doesn't know everything and you and Steve know considerably less, but it does show us why people cling irrationally to idiotic beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I'm beginning to think there'd be no point in your visiting because you don't have an open mind, you're not willing to learn and you use irrational arguments to reject anything that unsettles the way you see things. I think you're insecure and this is why you're not being logical.
I'm not happy to entertain someone who doesn't think logically, has no respect for centuries of learning, and will not accept that he could possibly be mistaken.
I'm sorry Marco but I think we'd better cancel.
Ash
Dear oh dear...how predictable. Ashley knew that I'd expose his ADM9s for what they are and couldn't hack it. He's been looking for an excuse to back down since our meeting was first suggested!
Try not to laugh too much, folks :lolsign:
I would ask you to read the text in bold above and consider whether it is the proverbial case of 'The pot calling the kettle black'!
Not to worry, though, I'll go out of my way now to attend the next hi-fi show where AVI are exhibiting, if you get me ;)
Perhaps we can all go in a big group and assess the ADM9s, en-masse? That should be fun!
Marco.
Filterlab
26-04-2008, 13:15
That's a shame, it does however show that the ADM9s probably don't come anywhere near proper hi-fi for sound quality or he'd be really keen to demostrate them and show them off.
Oh well, I guess we'll just have to continue being irrational in our thinking that one box trick speakers really aren't the finest hi-fi money can buy. I do think a mass get together at the AVI stand at a hi-fi show might be a good laugh, open mind or not.
However should we not wait for the Ideal Home Exhibition? Possibly a more suitable venue for the speakers in question.
I'll state this to Ashley:
I have an open mind, I am receptive to any hi-fi thinking, I embrace the wind of change where it justifiably improves on current thinking; If you can demo your speakers and they blow my mind I'll shout it from the rooftops. If you're not prepared to demo them well I'll happily continue listening to my system through my Revels. :)
However should we not wait for the Ideal Home Exhibition? Possibly a more suitable venue for the speakers in question.
:D
F*cking hilarious!
Rob,
You'd only be wasting your time because what would happen is that you'd hear them for what they are: decent quality, value for money stand-mount speakers for use in a lifestyle system or a similar fairly undemanding set-up.
Ashley, of course, has another view and would simply try to 'educate' you as to the 'correct' way to listen in his arrogant lecturing style, which is of course the way that science tells us :scratch:
A fun day out, not. And not likely even an educational one.
What was becoming blatantly obvious in our email exchanges was that Ashley was unwilling for me to simply come down and let my ears be the arbiter, make up my own mind, and report accordingly. He wanted to 'condition' me to his way of thinking and somehow prove that my hearing was 'flawed' if I didn't think the ADM9s were better, because scientific tests, according to him, prove conclusively that ADM9s are superior to anything else.
Now how would you react to a situation like that?
Marco.
sastusbulbas
26-04-2008, 14:15
Well what did we expect eh?
sastusbulbas
26-04-2008, 14:19
Actually Hi Fi news have been doing articles on bass reproduction, and as usual, as every magazine notes, small drivers just don't do it like big uns.
I'm currently having my ears just about popped by Bass Outlaws at the moment, room is practically moving LOL, TV is rattling so will have to dig out the blue tack..
Steve
Now how would you react to a situation like that?
Marco.
With some degree of predictability. Your attitude has changed compared to a few days ago Marco. You now take every opportunity to be critical, whereas before you were friendly.
I don't really think it's worth much either way because you hadn't heard them earlier, and still haven't heard them now.
It seems to me that we have a similar situation here to that which occurred at the Owston meet. They were certain that cables/interconnects were all part of fooling yourself into hearing things which don't really exist or are a false/ incorrect impression.
So it seems to me that any report of equipment from some listeners is unfortunately going to be useless to others of a different persuasion.
I don't mind If you want to kid yourself about what sounds good to you but it isn't really all that relevant, because your "following" is probably less than 50 people and maybe one or two of them might see the light and buy AVI products, but more than that is buying day in and day out anyway because they do want the best for their money.
So from a commercial point of view it's a non event. It's a shame you lost the opportunity because initially I felt there was room for examination of contrasting analyses., and I was hoping some enlightenment would have come from somewhere.
However I agree with Ash, there is no point in spending the day with a very obviously hostile guest.
That's a shame, it does however show that the ADM9s probably don't come anywhere near proper hi-fi for sound quality or he'd be really keen to demostrate them and show them off.
This is unlike you filterlad, It doesn't show anything of the sort. It merely shows that Ash doesn't want to entertain Marco.
Steve Toy
26-04-2008, 14:54
It merely shows that Ash doesn't want to entertain Marco.
... for the reasons that Marco has outlined. A circular argument commences (or doesn't.)
JC,
Your attitude has changed compared to a few days ago Marco. You now take every opportunity to be critical, whereas before you were friendly.
I don't think so, but if it has it might be because your pal Ashley has been bombarding me incessantly with emails arrogantly trying to tell me how I listen to hi-fi is wrong, and trying to 'condition' me to a certain way of listening. I'm only human, so it does irk after a while and I'd had enough!
It seems to me that we have a similar situation here to that which occurred at the Owston meet. They were certain that cables/interconnects were all part of fooling yourself into hearing things which don't really exist or are a false/ incorrect impression.
Don't quote events at Owston because you weren't there. Just because some people who attended were also cable sceptics like you doesn't make them right. And nothing was concluded as "certain". There wasn't even a cable test carried out! I intend to do this next time and we'll see then what the outcome is, but somehow I doubt you'll be a member of this forum and in a position to contribute by then ;)
I don't mind If you want to kid yourself about what sounds good to you but it isn't really all that relevant...
The only person kidding themselves on is you thinking that your tiny ADM9s could even remotely be as sonically capable as SP100s or other high quality speakers of their ilk. You live in cloud-cuckoo land.
So from a commercial point of view it's a non event. It's a shame you lost the opportunity because initially I felt there was room for examination of contrasting analyses., and I was hoping some enlightenment would have come from somewhere.
So was I. But your arrogant science and measurements-obsessed lecturer, Ashley, put paid to that - or more likely both of you knew what the outcome was going to be so when it became obvious to Ashley that I wasn't willing to be manipulated the way he wanted, he decided to back out.
However I agree with Ash, there is no point in spending the day with a very obviously hostile guest.
What absolute nonsense! I would have arrived with an open-mind and have been the epitome of politeness. Anyone who knows me well would know this. I had no intentions of being hostile, but faced with the prospect of hearing that ADM9s were not all they were purported to be by Ashley and you, and having you both arrogantly trying to tell me that what I was hearing was somehow 'wrong', I naturally couldn't guarantee that the situation would not become hostile, but certainly not in a physical way!
Now that’s enough from you, Mr Mouthpiece. Let's hear what Ashley has to say, if anything. The thread will be getting closed shortly because like Steve says it will only result in an endless and pointless circular argument.
Marco.
It seems to me that we have a similar situation here to that which occurred at the Owston meet. They were certain that cables/interconnects were all part of fooling yourself into hearing things which don't really exist or are a false/ incorrect impression.
Don't quote events at Owston because you weren't there. Just because some people who attended were also cable sceptics like you doesn't make them right. And nothing was concluded as "certain". There wasn't even a cable test carried out! I intend to do this next time and we'll see then what the outcome is, but somehow I doubt you'll be a member of this forum and in a position to contribute by then
Well, it was nothing to do with whatever people thought about cables, we were trying to compare DAC's so it would have been entirly inapropiate to change cables at the same time.
Maybe people here may have misunderstood my, and I suspect many others there view on cables, I think most of us accept that cables can alter sound, but the best cable from a DIY perspective is the one that changes the sound the least. Because we have a much finer control of the sound by changing components in the amps/speakers/power supply etc, its generally not necessary to use cables to tune a system. So its not the case of being skeptic or not, its just something we have moved past.
Hi Nick,
I have no problem with that. It would have been inappropriate, so we'll do something with cables next time :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
26-04-2008, 15:40
Lurcher,
Fundamentally what you are saying is that cables make a difference but from a DIY perspective there are more effective ways of tailoring the sound given the use of cheap but effective cabling with no inherent character of its own.
Ok, Ashley and me have 'kissed and made up' so the test is back on as planned on 23rd May. Great fun this, isn't it? It's worse than a bloody soap opera! :lolsign:
We won't be bringing Ashley back as a member just at the moment, though, because I would like us to distance ourselves from each other until the day of the test to prevent any forum shenanigans influencing matters.
Furthermore, we have un-banned JCbrum in the understanding that he discusses more than just ADM9s and AVI, and participates more in other forum discussions, so it will be interesting to see what JC has to offer in the absence of his pal Ashley! ;)
I would therefore ask you all to give JC a fair crack of the whip and to try to judge him as a new member without any of his previous AVI/ADM9 'baggage'. This is very much a trial situation though so if it doesn't work out for either JC or anyone else then we will revert to as before.
Marco.
Mick Parry
01-05-2008, 19:02
Chaps
I have been following this threadf with some interest. I have a little shack in Spain which about the size of your average two bed house over here, thus space is tight.
I was seriously considering the purchase of a ADM9 because it seems not to take up much space and let's be honest, you don't expect much for a grand in this day and age. Another advantage is that no bugger would bother nicking it (the place is only occupied a few weeks a year until I retire) because you need a lap top or similar to get it going. Therefore in theory at least, it seemed a goer. Also I might have bought two more, one for the bedroom in Spain and one for the bedroom over here. Mrs Mick tends to spend time reading in bed and likes background music at low levels.
After reading this shinanigans .... no way.
Why do small hifi companys market themselves so badly.
Regards
Mick .. will probaly now go for a Nait 5.
Mrs Mick tends to spend time reading in bed and likes background music at low levels.
LOL. I think they might just be a bit better than that.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to going down and I shall assess the ADM9s and anything else I'm offered to listen to with the utmost professionalism.
Marco.
I'm sure they are actually very good!
Just not quite the universal panacea that they have been made out to be at times.
:)
Cable stuff has been moved to appropriate thread HERE (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8191#post8191).
Cheers,
Mike.
Filterlab
02-05-2008, 11:45
Good move Mike.
Ashley's bottled it again, so the meeting is off :lolsign:
Don't ask! :lol:
Marco.
Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 19:59
I will ask.
Take a 'wild guess' as to what the reason is...
Marco.
Steve Toy
03-05-2008, 20:32
Ashley knows deep down that they are ok but from our POV nothing special. He has craved endorsement from audio enthusiast circles for some time despite his being a lifestyle product, hence why he has spent so much time on forums such as this.
A truthful verdict would not exactly be the endorsement he seeks.
BINGO! :champagne:
Marco.
Perhaps he feels that your entrenched opinions will exclude a proper assessment, and that you are unwilling to embrace his concepts.
There does seem to be a lot of people now who think Ashley's stuff is superb, and are realizing the inadequacies of legacy equipment, particularly clutter.
He seems to be using his AVI website to explain his point about how to assess hifi equipment.
http://www.avihifi.com/assessinghifi.html
He does make some valid points :)
Filterlab
04-05-2008, 10:56
He does, and his products are good, for their purpose.
But....
Most of the folk on here have spent much much more on components, and in some cases cables, than AVI's speakers cost. It's a sound quality level I personally was at ten years ago and I, like many members on here, have gone way past that now. Indeed they are a step up from desktop speakers and a step up from many mini/midi/one-box systems, but in honesty do you really believe these are in the realms of audiophilia? Do you really think these sound better than, for instance, Marco's system which runs well in excess of £20k? Do you really think that they sound better than even my relatively modest set-up?
If you do then maybe you should hear some of these systems, and rather than just focus on what you think you know in terms of science, try LISTENING to the music. Of course you'll never admit you can hear any more, but you'll know you can. There's a reason that people spend thousands, tens of thousands on systems, it's because there is a difference, a distinct and remarkable difference, a 'bloody hell' difference with high-end stuff. If you can't hear it you're either denying it or you're half deaf.
Admittedly there's no single best path to excellent sound, one man's mess is another's masterpiece - I'm sure many folk here wouldn't believe my computer based system can sound as good as vinyl, there's some that believe valves could never sound as good as solid state, but whatever people think, generally speaking very expensive hi-fi sounds feckin' remarkable.
As a concept I think Ashley and his speakers have arrived at exactly the right time, and his ideas are highly embraceable. Personally I think the iPod is marvellous and I love mine to bits, but is all this active DAC iPod stuff hi-fi? Is it hell, and you know as well as everyone here does it isn't. It's good, but it's not hi-fi. It's a long long way off.
JC,
Perhaps he feels that your entrenched opinions will exclude a proper assessment, and that you are unwilling to embrace his concepts.
Well I can assure you it is most certainly not the case!!
First of all, I don't have "entrenched opinions". With hi-fi, all that concerns me is what equipment delivers (to me) the most realistic musical sound, using the live sound of real voices and instruments as a benchmark - that's all. I don't care what equipment I use to achieve this - it could be new or old, solid-state, valve, CD, vinyl, or computers. The equipment is unimportant and just a means to an end; the end being what I've highlighted above.
I suggest you (and Ashley) read this as many times as it is necessary for it to fully penetrate! - Because it applies not only to me but also to plenty of others here on this forum.
The truth of the matter is that the only people with entrenched opinions, my friend, are Ashley and you, as both of you believe the *ONLY* 'true' way to enjoy hi-fi and recorded music is with a computer and something like ADM9s because science and measurements apparently indicate this as fact :mental:
Well here's another, this time accurate, fact for you to digest: THERE IS NO ONE 'TRUE' WAY TO ENJOY RECORDED MUSIC.
The reproduction of music is not a perfect science, so for an ordinary punter, choosing a hi-fi system is a subjective matter, not one which requires scientific 'evidence' to aid the selection process. Everyone has different priorities regarding what they want to achieve with their systems.
Given this is the case, do you honestly expect everyone to be satisfied using a computer and a pair of ADM9s??
It's just not going to happen no matter how much Ashley or you would like it!
What's happened with Ashley is just as Steve has described, so I'll repeat it again as it is a most succinct summary:
Ashley knows deep down that they are ok but from our POV nothing special. He has craved endorsement from audio enthusiast circles for some time despite his being a lifestyle product, hence why he has spent so much time on forums such as this.
A truthful verdict would not exactly be the endorsement he seeks.
The last sentence is particularly telling!
I'm disappointed, as I would like to have heard the ADM9s and given them a fair hearing, but as far as Ashley is concerned that was obviously never on the agenda.
I do like Ashley, and find him an interesting character with undoubtedly a wealth of knowledge and experience in the industry, but his arrogant and absolutist methodology with hi-fi is not something which will ever endear him to experienced enthusiasts such as me, and others like me, who know what good sound is and who are more than capable of deciding for themselves how best to achieve it.
The fact is I would "embrace the concept" of ADM9s if they were superior to the equipment I currently use. Sadly, I was not given the chance to assess them fairly using my judgement criteria. However given the opinions of people I trust who have heard them it doesn't seem that I've missed out on much.
Marco.
anthonyTD
04-05-2008, 11:37
He does, and his products are good, for their purpose.
But....
Most of the folk on here have spent much much more on components, and in some cases cables, than AVI's speakers cost. It's a sound quality level I personally was at ten years ago and I, like many members on here, have gone way past that now. Indeed they are a step up from desktop speakers and a step up from many mini/midi/one-box systems, but in honesty do you really believe these are in the realms of audiophilia? Do you really think these sound better than, for instance, Marco's system which runs well in excess of £20k? Do you really think that they sound better than even my relatively modest set-up?
If you do then maybe you should hear some of these systems, and rather than just focus on what you think you know in terms of science, try LISTENING to the music. Of course you'll never admit you can hear any more, but you'll know you can. There's a reason that people spend thousands, tens of thousands on systems, it's because there is a difference, a distinct and remarkable difference, a 'bloody hell' difference with high-end stuff. If you can't hear it you're either denying it or you're half deaf.
Admittedly there's no single best path to excellent sound, one man's mess is another's masterpiece - I'm sure many folk here wouldn't believe my computer based system can sound as good as vinyl, there's some that believe valves could never sound as good as solid state, but whatever people think, generally speaking very expensive hi-fi sounds feckin' remarkable.
As a concept I think Ashley and his speakers have arrived at exactly the right time, and his ideas are highly embraceable. Personally I think the iPod is marvellous and I love mine to bits, but is all this active DAC iPod stuff hi-fi? Is it hell, and you know as well as everyone here does it isn't. It's good, but it's not hi-fi. It's a long long way off.
well said that man! ;)
anthonyTD
04-05-2008, 11:38
JC,
Well I can assure you it is most certainly not the case!!
First of all, I don't have "entrenched opinions". With hi-fi, all that concerns me is what equipment delivers (to me) the most realistic musical sound, using the live sound of real voices and instruments as a benchmark - that's all. I don't care what equipment I use to achieve this - it could be new or old, solid-state, valve, CD, vinyl, or computers. The equipment is unimportant and just a means to an end; the end being what I've highlighted above.
I suggest you (and Ashley) read this as many times as it is necessary for it to fully penetrate! - Because it applies not only to me but also to plenty of others here on this forum.
The truth of the matter is that the only people with entrenched opinions, my friend, are Ashley and you, as both of you believe the *ONLY* 'true' way to enjoy hi-fi and recorded music is with a computer and something like ADM9s because science and measurements apparently indicate this as fact :mental:
Well here's another, this time accurate, fact for you to digest: THERE IS NO ONE 'TRUE' WAY TO ENJOY RECORDED MUSIC.
The reproduction of music is not a perfect science, so for an ordinary punter, choosing a hi-fi system is a subjective matter - not one which requires scientific 'evidence' to aid the selection process. Everyone has different priorities regarding what they want to achieve with their systems.
Given this is the case, do you honestly expect everyone to be satisfied using a computer and a pair of ADM9s??
It's just not going to happen no matter how much Ashley or you would like it!
What's happened with Ashley is just as Steve has described, so I'll repeat it again as it is a most succinct summary:
The last sentence is particularly telling!
I'm disappointed, as I would like to have heard the ADM9s and given them a fair hearing, but as far as Ashley is concerned that was obviously never on the agenda.
I do like Ashley, and find him an interesting character with undoubtedly a wealth of knowledge and experience in the industry, but his arrogant and absolutist methodology with hi-fi is not something which will ever endear him to experienced enthusiasts such as I, and others like me, who know what good sound is and who are more than capable of deciding for themselves how best to achieve it.
The fact is I would "embrace the concept" of ADM9s if they were superior to the equipment I currently use. Sadly, I was not given the chance to assess them fairly using my judgement criteria. However given the opinions of people I trust who have heard them it doesn't seem that I've missed out on much.
Marco.
marco,rob, your telling it like it is, after-all we live in the real world...:)
Bloody right! Not in cloud-cuckoo land like some folk ;)
Marco.
Mick Parry
04-05-2008, 14:58
Chaps
Ashley should never have tried marketing his stuff on serious hifi fora. As previously stated most of us had systems comparable to the ADM9s over 20 years ago.
It was a lost cause from the word go and unfortunately he and JC Brum have alienated far too many of us which is a pity.
For some reason, small hifi entrepreneurs just cannot market their goods to save their lives and they should avoid fora like the plague.
Regards
Mick
evilpsycho666
04-05-2008, 15:26
Mr Parry, what a snidey post. Its obvious that hes not marketing on forums. I am sure he doesnt need to for a start. AVI have an excellent rack record of success without needing help from you or you acolytes. Both he and JC according to info on other forums have a strong following and always create interest and fan mail wherever they post. They are currently commenting on whathifi. By the way your misery at seeing their success appears to have affected your reason. There was nothing comparable 2 years ago let alone 20 years ago. since you booked a dem and then didnt dare to turn up following your antics on pfm, you wouldnt know since you havent heardthem.
Ashley should never have tried marketing his stuff on serious hifi fora.
And that's it in a nutshell!
Well said, Mick.
Marco.
Alex,
I suggest you behave yourself. I've had to delete un-called for abusive remarks in your reply to Mick. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you said you were not a troll, but you are still very much on trial here, and so far I have seen little positive contributions from you or evidence to suggest you're not just here to be a nuisance. Either shape up or ship out. Consider yourself warned!
Marco.
Do I detect an AVI stooge ? :scratch:
He posts very much in the style of JC but I don't think they are one and the same.
Could he, perish the thought, be one of the apparently 1000s of genuine 'delighted' ADM9 customers populating the planet? :uhho:
Marco.
Mick Parry
05-05-2008, 08:34
Alex
I cannot read everything that you said because it was deleted. You are, however, proving my point that small hifi companies are poor at marketing their products. Marco has done Ashley a favour by toning down your posting, not only would it reflect badly on you but more importantly would reflect badly on AV1.
I have yet to hear a ADM9 and to be fair it has quite a bit going for it. It is small and compact, very wife friendly in appearance due to a lack of cables and probably sounds pretty good once linked into a laptop.
However, this forum is populated with people who are trying to squeeze the best sound out of their quite expensive systems, and a £1000.00 system is way below the criteria that interests them. Some of these chaps will spend a grand on a single inter connect cable or a cartridge. Therefore coming here with a view to stimulate sales is pointless.
Secondly, the Hifi industry is littered with small entrepenaurs who lack skills of presentation, Ashley, JCBrum and Richard clearly fall into that category. They upset potential custumers at the drop of a hat.
Selling is a highly skilled profession and they are better off leaving the sales function to those that are good at it. That was my point and I speak as a Procurement Consultant handling a budget of £400k per working day.
Regards
Mick
anthonyTD
05-05-2008, 09:55
Alex
I cannot read everything that you said because it was deleted. You are, however, proving my point that small hifi companies are poor at marketing their products. Marco has done Ashley a favour by toning down your posting, not only would it reflect badly on you but more importantly would reflect badly on AV1.
I have yet to hear a ADM9 and to be fair it has quite a bit going for it. It is small and compact, very wife friendly in appearance due to a lack of cables and probably sounds pretty good once linked into a laptop.
However, this forum is populated with people who are trying to squeeze the best sound out of their quite expensive systems, and a £1000.00 system is way below the criteria that interests them. Some of these chaps will spend a grand on a single inter connect cable or a cartridge. Therefore coming here with a view to stimulate sales is pointless.
Secondly, the Hifi industry is littered with small entrepenaurs who lack skills of presentation, Ashley, JCBrum and Richard clearly fall into that category. They upset potential custumers at the drop of a hat.
Selling is a highly skilled profession and they are better off leaving the sales function to those that are good at it. That was my point and I speak as a Procurement Consultant handling a budget of £400k per working day.
Regards
Mick
hi mick,
nice to see someone without an axe to grind talking perfect sense!
anthony...;)
sastusbulbas
05-05-2008, 10:46
They are currently commenting on What Hi-Fi. By the way your misery at seeing their success appears to have affected your reason. There was nothing comparable 2 years ago let alone 20 years ago. since you booked a demo and then didn't dare to turn up following your antics on PFM, you wouldn't know since you haven't heard them.
Firstly,
The What Hi-Fi fora is nothing more than rubbish, Dave with three posts highlights his system and costs, and how wonderful his ADM9's are? Woopee.
Then we have the reply "so they are good" and "you had a proper Hi-Fi before" again more advertising than fact, easily read into, of course there are all the other threads along with what Hi-Fi with mysterious newbies coming out of the woodwork and discussing virtues and quality they are suddenly aware of.
Anyway, why not post a link to the thread containing the comments?
Secondly,
Meridian have been making digital active speakers for many years, with far more success than AVI, and they are more than comparable!
As for two years ago? There have been plenty of budget bedroom Active studio monitors along the same lines of those AVI models, one could be suspicious and ask if these were teh motivation for a money making "NEW" Hi-Fi product.
AVI were not the first to design such, but probably the first to make the wild claims with regard to capability and such, while putting a presence on forums to bring attention and spin to the product.
Me, I am interesting in watching the ADM9 develope, I do not believe the claims made, they are not bespoke as claimed, clearly I see the DAC module as something off the shelf as it was offered in two versions with different chips, both models were the same price with a USB version using a poorer chip than the SPDIF version. Why not design a version with the better chip and more connectivity in the first place? saves money on tooling and packaging and assembly.
I am also not blinded by claims made about the reviews (how many magazine reviews?) which clearly did not rate them as highly as suggested showing comparable price bracket equivalents, even rating them as approaching the old LS3/5a in mid band clarity.
What we really have IS nothing more than a very competent class leader in its price bracket, which will clearly save money and space on it's separates equivalent of speaker, amp, Dac due to less boxes and support electronics such as power supplies and such.
Benefits of using separates are more connections and upgradability.
All we really have though is attitude slander and belittling, with wild claims being made for performance which have never in all the forums been substantiated, due to the fact that these products are nothing more than competent products which are no better or worse than any other designers ideas and ideals.
Its a small profit related product with 6" bass drivers in a small ported two way cabinet, utilising off the shelf circuit and component with some reworking and labelling.
How much is a replacement bass driver? What can be used that does not have an AVI label?
What about the DAC? Why did we have two different chips of differing quality for different input options?
Why no graphs or waterfall plots? Why no actual output specification and just equivalent output in watts claims?
Why such wild claims and so much internet hype all around such a short period after initial release of a rushed product?
How many individuals on the forums actually own a pair?
How many bought blind?
How many are aware of the claims made by some in forums of "wanting to hear" a difference?
How many buyers have returned?
How many have heard and not liked.
How many have heard and liked?
What is the average set up and listening habits of current customers?
Maybe if two individuals were not so abrasive and insulting we would have gave them more credit, but what we have is two wealthy elderly gentlemen who are not interested in any opinion other than their own, and an over-hyped product designed to provide reasonable quality and comparison in it's price bracket, while targeting a slightly different consumer bracket and to make money for its parent company.
I will still watch and think about them, would be nice and simple within the bedroom to have an active design capable of accepting up to 24/192 digital input via firewire or such from a suitable laptop capable of HD audio and maybe even DVD replay into a larger screen.
Still think they have a future regardless of the hammering they are taking due to peoples opinions of Ashley and James and their peculiar attitudes to others he act suspicious of claims or disagree.
Steve (who knows not what he talks about but babbles anyway) :)
However, this forum is populated with people who are trying to squeeze the best sound out of their quite expensive systems, and a £1000.00 system is way below the criteria that interests them. Some of these chaps will spend a grand on a single inter connect cable or a cartridge. Therefore coming here with a view to stimulate sales is pointless.
Some of us are coming at it from the opposite direction. I have put together a home-built slate-based turntable and 6550 push-pull amp out of assorted spare bits and pieces for a total outlay of under £500, had a huge amount of fun doing it and ended up with a sound that would have cost me thousands to replicate in the shops. I can't comment on how it would compare with ADM9s because I haven't heard them, but I couldn't afford them anyway. For some of us, a grand is a lot of money.
You've made some good points there, Steve, and Mick has, too.
I'm just mindful though of this thread not turning into another vitriolic exchange between the likes of JC and others who disagree with him regarding ADM9s. I will insist that if this discussion is to progress then people must stick to the facts and not make personal remarks of any nature towards others. We (admin) will therefore be keeping a very close eye on things!
Steve, if I can just make a small point - you write some fabulous posts, full of interesting and often controversial subject matter, but I feel that your contributions would have more gravitas if you shortened them to about a quarter of their current length, and directed no more than a couple of challenging questions for your 'opponent' to deal with at any one time. This would give your arguments more of a hard-hitting factor.
This of course is only my opinion, said with the best of intentions, because we go back a long way on forums and I've always enjoyed what you've written, so I hope my suggestion has not offended you :)
Marco.
Some of us are coming at it from the opposite direction. I have put together a home-built slate-based turntable and 6550 push-pull amp out of assorted spare bits and pieces for a total outlay of under £500, had a huge amount of fun doing it and ended up with a sound that would have cost me thousands to replicate in the shops. I can't comment on how it would compare with ADM9s because I haven't heard them, but I couldn't afford them anyway. For some of us, a grand is a lot of money.
Yep, I agree, and I certainly don't want people to think that A.O.S is elitist and only interested in discussions about £20,000 systems and £2000 interconnects, or whatever.
We embrace ALL approaches with hi-fi here and encourage people to contribute of varying levels of experience. Where I am at the moment with valve amps, I'm particularly interested in the D.I.Y approach, particularly since attending the recent Owston meeting, so all power to you Shane with any future projects you undertake and please keep us informed of what you're up to in that regard :)
Marco.
sastusbulbas
05-05-2008, 12:30
Steve, if I can just make a small point - I feel that your contributions would have more gravitas if you shortened them to about a quarter of their current length, and directed no more than a couple of challenging questions for your 'opponent' to deal with at any one time. This would give your arguments more of a hard-hitting factor.
This of course is only my opinion, said with the best of intentions, because we go back a long way on forums and I've always enjoyed what you've written, so I hope my suggestion has not offended you :)
Marco.
:lolsign: yes I agree Marco, I can be a bit long winded. Blah Blah Blah.
Steve, mate, we're all guilty of it! :)
I just feel that in your case, specifically when you're arguing with people who have an entirely different mindset to you on a given subject, and you want to 'nail them', that you hit them with no more than a couple of challenging questions/observations at a time. This will force them to address the difficult points you want them to answer and not simply gloss over the whole of your post missing the bits out they wish to avoid.
You will win more arguments that way, and quicker. Trust me, as a 'seasoned campaigner' ;)
Marco.
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