View Full Version : Burn-In - Forum Members Experience
Clive197
02-04-2016, 13:46
In view of comments on another forum regarding 'burn-in' all being in the mind, I thought I would start a thread here to find out what esteemed members think.
My own thoughts are very much in the middle and I'm happy to sit on a fence until convinced otherwise.
Andcwhat burn in are you referring to? Cables. Cartridges. Equipment. Or all?
Clive197
02-04-2016, 13:53
Andcwhat burn in are you referring to? Cables. Cartridges. Equipment. Or all?
It was a general HiFi question, therefore ALL
For me
Interconnects - no, never heard it
Speaker cables - thought I heard it once but it turned out to be an issue with the speakers
Amps - not bought many brand new amps in my time, but no
CD players - no
Speakers - well, brand new speakers definitely have to be run in, no-one disputes that. But I've never heard it make a noticeable difference.
Fancy Mains cables - never had a new one
Passive pre amp - yes - and I wasn't expecting it either but not a big enough difference to be totally outside the placebo exclusion zone. Turns out the resistors in the pots have to burn in a bit.
pgarrish
02-04-2016, 14:11
I've not heard much evidence of electrical Burn-In, but speakers certainly need to be run in. I had a pair of Tannoy HPD drivers rebuilt and the sound changed very noticeably over the first few months, I would assume as the mechanical elements like the suspension bedded in
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 14:40
'Burn in'? It's all Black Magic innit?
Some amplifiers and other electronics can seem to sound better after a period of use from new. But that of course could just be down to the user acclimatising to the sound. This is not the same thing as equipment sounding better after it's been on for a while though, which definitely happens. Certainly with each of my power amps and the phono stage.
Speakers definitely do 'break in', as opposed to burn in. Probably more noticeable on paper pulp coned units. I suspect this applies to an extent to all other electro-mechanical items like cartridges and even microphones. Last time I bought a new cartridge, the sound changed fairly dramatically over the first twenty hours or so of use.
As for cable burn in? I put that in the same category as directionality. I don't believe in it. Some do, but there again there are those who still believe the Earth is flat and that fairies exist! :D
Well if its all....then interconnects...maybe but not heard it. Speaker cable probably same. I have heard it but proved to my self it was me.
Amps cds etc possible but not much. I know some components do but probably quite quick. Carts yes. And can vary from 20hrs to 80hrs. Mains cable. Unlikely again . speakers a bit early on but probably only first 1hr.
Would be happy to be shown it happens though
Yes. :) (for me)
In my experience I've noticed changes with any new kit I've had, cables, power supplies, internal components, speakers...you name it.
Some take longer than others and some are more noticable than others, but you know what...personally...I just enjoy the music and appreciate any improvement when it comes along.
Dont get caught up in the same old arguments about what causes it, is it in your head, expectation bias and all that stuff, life's too short. :mental:
Yes burn-in is real, it is measurable, BUT, your ears / mind interface also 'burns-in' to component changes, and it's difficult to separate the two out. ;)
The only real takeaway from this is to not base a decision in the short term, and to give things a bit of time before making a judgement.
Spectral Morn
02-04-2016, 15:58
Yes burn-in is real, it is measurable, BUT, your ears / mind interface also 'burns-in' to component changes, and it's difficult to separate the two out. ;)
The only real takeaway from this is to not base a decision in the short term, and to give things a bit of time before making a judgement.
Spot on and vital.
I have heard run in, and warm up on most things. Sometimes the change is subtle, sometimes its blind man on galloping horse obvious.
I honestly have no idea because I'm unsure how much is running in and how much is me adjusting. Probably the closest I've come to being sure of run-in was with new speakers. They do appear to loosen up and been to breathe as the first few days go by.
Been doing 'this' since '66... Gawd that an awful realisation.
for ME.. the Only things that have genuinely /audibly improved with time/usage are Brand New drivers.
Their spiders need some serious in use flexing to get to their working condition.
Occaisionally, a new piece of gear has some tiny moments of Cap forming but that's all I've ever heard / taken note of.
As with many aspects of Audio Weeniedom.. Religion plays a part.
Certainly heard warm up. The big Sony amp ive got takez 30 or 40 mi!s to get going right. Dunno why but im told they all do it. Valve amps improve too . but thats different to burn in....or is it? Dunno but if i hear it i will tell..
Yes, to me stuff with valves in does seem to sound better the longer it's been on. I couldn't point to any specific characteristic of the sound that improves, it is just an overall impression. It could be imagined but I don't find that happens at all with solid state which implies that it isn't.
Wakefield Turntables
02-04-2016, 17:04
I dont think cables "burn in" more our brains tune-in to what we may consider percieved differences between cables. I personally think that different cables certainly change the sonic presentation of what we hear but I do not think its a physical process of the cables which bring about these sonic differences more due to the physical composition and construction of the cable. I like the term Psychaudiology, I think this term covers both camps.
skimminstones
02-04-2016, 17:27
Always found its more my ears getting used to the sounds than anything else
Certainly heard warm up. The big Sony amp ive got takez 30 or 40 mi!s to get going right. Dunno why but im told they all do it. Valve amps improve too . but thats different to burn in....or is it? Dunno but if i hear it i will tell..
Yea my old NAD C320BEE used to sound noticeably better after about an hour of playing.
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 17:36
Yes, to me stuff with valves in does seem to sound better the longer it's been on. I couldn't point to any specific characteristic of the sound that improves, it is just an overall impression. It could be imagined but I don't find that happens at all with solid state which implies that it isn't.
You should hear my Class A solid state power amps Martin. When initially turned on, they sound good, but comparatively two dimensional and flat. After about ten minutes, there's a huge transfomation in the sound. It's as though somebody has thrown a switch and the sound opens right up, with depth, scale and transparency continuing to improve from there on for maybe another twenty minutes. It's a characteristic of the design. I have two of these and they both do it, as does the one owned by my mate.
Funnily enough my valve monos do the same.
Rothchild
02-04-2016, 17:51
If cable burns in, then it stands to reason it should also burn out, I've experienced neither.
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 17:53
If cable burns in, then it stands to reason it should also burn out, I've experienced neither.
He He. I like that! :D
new speakers and amps definitely heard a difference after a while
awkwardbydesign
02-04-2016, 19:42
Take two Van Damme 6mm speaker cables. Burn in one pair and not the other. Hear the difference. IME.
I've never heard any evidence of interconnect burn in and I have made up identical pairs in the past. In some parts of the industry the idea is taken very much as a given though. The newer idea is that interconnects also take a time to settle after being changed.....
Take two Van Damme 6mm speaker cables. Burn in one pair and not the other. Hear the difference. IME.
What's your confidence level on that?
awkwardbydesign
02-04-2016, 20:26
What's your confidence level on that?
On my own experience? What do you think?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
100% stake your life on it? Balance of probability, or what?
Would a civilian you pulled in of the street spot the difference?
Audio Advent
02-04-2016, 21:04
"Burn-In" is that like a Bake-off? But an indoor Wickerman of forum members?
vinyljunky
02-04-2016, 21:09
Always thought burn in was when a load of arsonists got together in a house and had a party:D
rikardo1979
02-04-2016, 21:14
speakers yes, I can hear how our brand new speakers getting better and better. And is not just me as my missus saying same.
Rest, I am not sure and is hard to believe that anything can change in electronics by running it for some time. If so than there would be something wrong in it :eek:
Can't say I've ever noticed it. Any perceived difference (for better or worse) is probably down to my mood/level of alcohol as much as anything else.
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 21:15
Do cryo cables burn in more noticeably? You know, cold then hot as it were.
Anyway, which end burns in first?
Can you burn in 'directional' cables the wrong way round?
What happens if you use a directional cable 'correctly' and extend it using a simliar cable the wrong way round?
There was that bloke who got confused between arson and incest. Ended up setting fire to his sister.
What happens if you use a directional cable 'correctly' and extend it using a simliar cable the wrong way round?
The whole of the space-time continuum collapses and time moves backwards. Eventually the universe collapses in on itself and disappears into a black hole. Don't mess with this directionality stuff. It's serious juju.
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 21:28
The whole of the space-time continuum collapses and time moves backwards. Eventually the universe collapses in on itself and disappears into a black hole. Don't mess with this directionality stuff. It's serious juju.
Does that mean my speakers will be affected? :eek:
Does that mean my speakers will be affected? :eek:
You'll be crushed into a smaller space than an electron, so yes. Bad news for the pets, too.
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 21:36
You'll be crushed into a smaller space than an electron, so yes. Bad news for the pets, too.
Oh, I don't know. A singularity could be quite cosy. :D
Arkless Electronics
02-04-2016, 21:50
Quark science ;)
It has a strange charm.....
Audio Al
02-04-2016, 21:55
Is it like new copper water pipe not flowing until its had 10,000 ltrs trough it :scratch:
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 21:58
Is it like new copper water pipe not flowing until its had 10,000 ltrs trough it :scratch:
Al's got it. Hit the nail on the head mate!!
Audio Al
02-04-2016, 22:13
Al's got it. Hit the nail on the head mate!!
:)
Audio Advent
02-04-2016, 22:16
I've noticed warm-up differences but not sure I've noticed burn-in as I've rarely bought anything new.
But there definately is a brain change when a new (to you) bit of gear gets heard even if the gear is 20 odd years old. Sometimes you're just not sure about it but after a while you begin to feel it's sounding better than the system before.
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 22:24
I've noticed warm-up differences but not sure I've noticed burn-in as I've rarely bought anything new.
But there definately is a brain change when a new (to you) bit of gear gets heard even if the gear is 20 odd years old. Sometimes you're just not sure about it but after a while you begin to feel it's sounding better than the system before.
I actually agree.
I actually agree.
There will be a parade tomorrow at 0900 sharp. Attendance is compulsory.
It has a strange charm.....
:) :)
There will be a parade tomorrow at 0900 sharp. Attendance is compulsory.
A loaded march awaits:D
walpurgis
02-04-2016, 22:48
A loaded march awaits:D
A loaded shotgun awaits here! ;)
awkwardbydesign
03-04-2016, 08:25
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
100% stake your life on it? Balance of probability, or what?
Would a civilian you pulled in of the street spot the difference?
Oh, I see. I wasn't talking about anyone else's experience, or what I had been told, or what measurements say. Just what I have heard, in my own system, with my own cables. So 100%.
Oh, I see. I wasn't talking about anyone else's experience, or what I had been told, or what measurements say. Just what I have heard, in my own system, with my own cables. So 100%.
Don't get me wrong, my thinking is not restricted to the confines of the Ladybird Book Of Physics, but since such a phenomena is not explained within it's pages it pays to be circumspect, at least. Other avenues have to be explored first before Ladybird have to issue a revised edition.
I thought I heard speaker cable burn in, was pretty sure in fact. Then found out later it was a speaker issue. Not saying this was your situation but you have to be pretty confident that there were no other factors involved - I'm dismissing placebo/expectation bias since the effects of that are overstated due to lazy thinking.
Clive197
03-04-2016, 10:06
I would like to clarify why I sit on the fence on this. I am sure that cartridges burn-in, in that the diamond tip microscopicly smooths out which brings the cartridge up to full potential. Loudspeakers mechanically break-in which then allows them to come to full potential. When I bought my Spendor D7's last year they sounded great out of the box but I think they have got slightly better now (or is that just my ears).
I'm sure that valves need to warm-up but as I don't own a valve kit (not since my Dansette record player 50 yrs ago) I only assume this from reading posts on this and other forums.
awkwardbydesign
03-04-2016, 10:13
Some capacitors, particularly Black Gate electrolytics, need lots of time to settle down. And new valves, too. Again, IME.
I don't know about resistors, but they do sound different from each other.
Ammonite Audio
03-04-2016, 10:36
Some capacitors, particularly Black Gate electrolytics, need lots of time to settle down. And new valves, too. Again, IME.
I don't know about resistors, but they do sound different from each other.
Anyone who has used Black Gate capacitors knows that they have a very obvious running-in characteristic over something like 300 hours, but so do ordinary electrolytic capacitors to a lesser extent (Alex Nikitin once gave me the science talk on this). Aside from the fact that our brains do clearly play a part in our perception of change, and becoming accustomed to change, I am convinced that new equipment does generally take time to give its best. To my ears, new solder joints take a couple of hours of use to settle down, but I am presently listening via the Belkin PureAV speaker cables that were a forum favourite a few years back - when they were new, they did sound actively unpleasant, but after a few weeks of perseverance did become my favourites (all for £12). The difference over that time was too gross to be simply my adjusting to their sound.
It would be exceedingly arrogant for me to proclaim that 'burn-in' of audio gear and components is an absolute truth, but the braying mobs on various forums that insist that it cannot be possible are similarly arrogant. As always, the truth lies in the middle ground and the whole issue is clouded by individual perception and bias.
Part of the problem is that it if it exists, it is a gradual process which is going to be subjectively less apparent. Now if you bought the kit brand new, you listened for an hour and then let it run for 100 hours . Then you go back and listen again you should notice the difference if there is one.
But this rarely happens, except in dodgy magazine reviews
awkwardbydesign
03-04-2016, 23:14
I can only speak from my own experiences, and have been playing for long enough to discount things like expectation bias (particularly when things go against my expectations!), but I have no idea why cables can burn in. Electrolytic caps, yes, a chemical change, and moving parts wear and bed in, but cables? No idea, but then I don't have understand it; I'm not designing or marketing them.
And I have made and modified enough stuff to be confident in my experiences.
walpurgis
03-04-2016, 23:44
I think I probably agree. Apart from cable burn in. The metal crystalline and molecular atomic structure of conductors does not change in their use, so what alters? Their relationship with the dielectric? Unlikely. 'Burn in' is just user acclimatisation to the effect of unfamiliar cables or even imagined, maybe?
Anthony K
04-04-2016, 01:36
Everthing
Actually.. MY experiences, when I fitted Black gates.. several of them during a CD player mod.
I fully believed the Lore re the Loooong forming period required. And planned for it.
So I kept a log .. Took less than 6 hours. Actually the audible change was inside of an hour.
I was being cautious given the Stories of hundreds of hours
Why Is Audio weenie land so rife with old wives' tales?
I've used BG caps extensively in the past but never had them take 300hrs, not even the FK's or the WKZ's. However, one amp I built and then upgraded did seem to take approx. 50hrs, it just suddenly changed in presentation, never figured out if it was the BGs or something else that caused it.
Speakers run in, although they don't burn unless you heave them onto a bonfire or similar. Which is what I'd like to do to quite a few, but I digress.
Speaking from the perspective of driver design, it will vary depending on the specific characteristics & type of the driver, since you're effectively bringing the moving components / powertrain into the design operating window. Most of it is the suspension, primarily the spider & the glues etc. gaining micro-fractures. It gets a bit more complex with wideband / FR speakers, since they produce a large amount of their BW through controlled resonance and / or flex of the cone substrate, so you will get some micro-changes in the structure of that also. You can usually do a lot of it in about 5 minutes, although in general it's better to do it more gently / progressively.
awkwardbydesign
04-04-2016, 09:55
..
AudioFreak
04-04-2016, 20:37
Ah' the Marmite subject rears it's head again.
On some forums the subject of burn in with cables gets many people hot under the collar, they just don't believe in it and don't believe that anyone else can.
Well I may as well add my twopence worth. I have found that most anything that is based on a mechanical movement will get better once it is run in, to the point where it will get to a sweet spot that depending on the design will be after several hours of moderate use and last an amount of time, it will then start to steadily degrade and then totally fail. So for cartridges, speakers, valves etc. it is more run in than burn in and depending on the quality of the parts used, quality of the manufacture and the overall design can be a significant change in sound.
As for cable burn in, whether it's mains, interconnects or speaker, I have found very little difference personally. I can certainly tell the difference between different manufacturers speaker and interconnect cables, and like everyone else have my own preference with the results. When getting a good deal I have bought two sets of the same interconnects previously and used one pair for a couple of months, (well burned in) and then connected the unused pair to the same CD player source and found no difference to my ears, intrigued I kept swapping in and out in the hope that there would be a difference, but found nothing.
Bottom line is what doesn't work for me doesn't mean it will not work for others, if you believe it makes your system sound better then it probably does to your ears, and that is all that matters. Now where's that blow torch.
awkwardbydesign
04-04-2016, 21:26
..
AudioFreak
05-04-2016, 05:50
I rest my case.
Mechanical things need time (cartridges and speakers). ATM, I have my second system in the conservatory, which is barely heated, and in winter it takes at least half an hour of playing for the bass to appear.
Electrical things ... maybe a few minutes to achieve operating conditions, but nothing significant.
awkwardbydesign
05-04-2016, 07:35
..
Pete The Cat
05-04-2016, 13:58
I don't often see day to day changes in the listener being mentioned as a factor. My hearing is definitely influenced by whether I have a cold, or am tired, or my mood in general, or with coffee as opposed to beer and so on. Burn-in may or may not be a factor (I can see the logic of the argument for burn-in with certain components) but my the state of my ENT and head have always been more of a day to day influence than burn-in in my own humble experience.
Pete
walpurgis
05-04-2016, 14:40
Is this an example of listener 'burn in'? (perhaps more burned out in my case! :D)
Oldpinkman
05-04-2016, 14:52
Part of the problem is that it if it exists, it is a gradual process which is going to be subjectively less apparent. Now if you bought the kit brand new, you listened for an hour and then let it run for 100 hours . Then you go back and listen again you should notice the difference if there is one.
But this rarely happens, except in dodgy magazine reviews
The other issue is that if you listen for an hour, run it for 100, listen to it then, and think it sounds different...
There is no way of going back to listen to it again after only an hour to check that it really does sound different. Burn-in always follows the 2nd law of thermodynamics and defies attempts at travelling backwards in time.
It might have happened. It might not. There is no reliable way, without borrowing the Doctors tardis, of checking. You can compare 2 "identical" items - a burned one and an unburned one, but most people reporting burn in rarely (if ever) have, and anyway, why can't 2 different samples sound different?
The same applies for warm up (which I note, as always happens with this circular subject, has been roped-in with "burn in"). You can leave your gear to warm up - but not go back and compare it with cold. You certainly can't A:B back and forth.
So how do you know that the very real listening experience you have is due to burn-in, or any of the other factors that might affect how different things sound at different moments in time.
Its a real bugger that 2nd law :D
I don't often see day to day changes in the listener being mentioned as a factor. My hearing is definitely influenced by whether I have a cold, or am tired, or my mood in general, or with coffee as opposed to beer and so on. Burn-in may or may not be a factor (I can see the logic of the argument for burn-in with certain components) but my the state of my ENT and head have always been more of a day to day influence than burn-in in my own humble experience.
Pete
I've related before a long time ago when I had what I thought was a 'mains issue' - that is the system would sound poor from 1800 hrs when I got in from work to 1930 hours when it would quite noticeably improve.
This went on for about a month and when I noticed that the sound had opened up I would look at my watch and it was always around 1930, give or take 10 minutes.
Some sort of mains pollution that stopped when some nearby factory shift finished?
No. It was because it was summer and a warm spell, and I had been travelling back from work down a very busy dual-carriageway with car windows wide open. 6 mile journey at about 8 miles an hour due to the heavy traffic, lots of concrete canyons and bridges bouncing the noise around.
It was taking my ears around 80 minutes to recover. As soon as the warm spell ended and the windows went back up the phenomena ceased.
Whilst I've got an open mind it is always worth exploring all the possibilities first before we attempt to expand on the known science. It is really easy to overlook a simple explanation, especially in the wacky world of subjective audio.
AudioFreak
05-04-2016, 20:29
I've related before a long time ago when I had what I thought was a 'mains issue' - that is the system would sound poor from 1800 hrs when I got in from work to 1930 hours when it would quite noticeably improve.
This went on for about a month and when I noticed that the sound had opened up I would look at my watch and it was always around 1930, give or take 10 minutes.
Some sort of mains pollution that stopped when some nearby factory shift finished?
No. It was because it was summer and a warm spell, and I had been travelling back from work down a very busy dual-carriageway with car windows wide open. 6 mile journey at about 8 miles an hour due to the heavy traffic, lots of concrete canyons and bridges bouncing the noise around.
It was taking my ears around 80 minutes to recover. As soon as the warm spell ended and the windows went back up the phenomena ceased.
Whilst I've got an open mind it is always worth exploring all the possibilities first before we attempt to expand on the known science. It is really easy to overlook a simple explanation, especially in the wacky world of subjective audio.
A very good point. I have had similar experiences with noise pollution ruining my music enjoyment soon after returning home from work. I have also had instances where I have had rather stressful days and get home and try to relax, put some music on and just can't seem to get comfortable with the sound, thinking something is wrong; turn on the next day and it's back to sounding great, I must admit I have thought the same about maybe a mains problem, but it definitely is more related to the stress.
Bloody hell now there is something else to throw into the mix for Hi-Fi nirvana.
Oldpinkman
06-04-2016, 05:36
Absolutely guys. Lots of things affect what (or how) we hear. This is at the heart of the passionate subjectivist objectivist handbags. People legitimately hear differences but may attribute the cause of that difference to the wrong factor in the complex psycho-acoustic mix. Like the thing they last tinkered with, or have reason to hope makes for a secret nugget tweak.
It's like the classic "it always rains when the pavements are wet"
Or more recently I read a comment from an eminent cardiologist questioning the use of statins, and the dangers of high cholesterol. "high cholesterol levels are often associated with heart attacks. Like paramedics are often associated with car crashes. One finds them at the scene. But it doesn't mean they are the cause
Martyn Miles
06-04-2016, 08:53
Burn in ?
It's a load of rubbish!
The only things worth burning are all the papers written about the subject...
walpurgis
06-04-2016, 09:45
Burn in ?
It's a load of rubbish!
The only things worth burning are all the papers written about the subject...
He He. Naughty Martyn. :lol:
Burn in ?
It's a load of rubbish!
The only things worth burning are all the papers written about the subject...
Sorry, could you be a little clearer about your opinion, Martyn? :D
I used to think those who claimed to be able to hear the differences between joints made with lead solder, or neutric connectors, or whatever, were either deluded or bullsitters ... then it occurred to me that their ears may actually be better than mine. I used to have perfect eyesight and could never understand why others couldn't see what I did. Now it is failing, I can appreciate why others never believed I could possibly have seen what I claimed.
The posts above about 'resting' your ears, and the allusions to levels of background noise are interesting. Like others, I thought the mains got better late at night when the system always performed at its best. I'm now convinced most of it is ... me. I have taken to getting up at 5.30am and listening to music before the day begins. Not only relaxes me, but it 'sounds' spectacular ... rested ears in a quiet bedroom, followed by listening without any traffic background noise. I also find all the dynamics are there, even at very low volumes, whereas at other times during the day I end up listening at much louder levels to get the same effect.
I find the same, Peter. It is our ears, not the mains.
I'm sure working in a busy office (about 40 staff) with aircon, printers, 40 odd computers humming away, spending a fair bit of time on the telephone and so on 'clogs' the ears a bit so when I get home I play louder to begin, then as time wears on, back the volume off without any sense of lost detail or dynamics or whatever.
Not sure why the music doesn't maintain the clogging effect - I mean music is just sound like the rest of it isn't it? It would seem not.
Rothchild
06-04-2016, 10:36
Not sure why the music doesn't maintain the clogging effect - I mean music is just sound like the rest of it isn't it? It would seem not.
Likely because it's the brain, not the ears, that are 'clogged' by that sort of background noise - it takes a while for your attention to come back to where it ought to be.
For all those who talk about sitting down with a drink to enjoy some music, it's advisable that if you're going for a critical listening session maybe you should lay off it a bit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031886/ as your frequency response and hearing threshold are demonstrably affected by alcohol.
Haselsh1
06-04-2016, 10:38
I bought my current KEF Q500's back in 2013 brand new and boy did they change after around three months of use. The difference was so obvious even my partner Sue commented on it.
Likely because it's the brain, not the ears, that are 'clogged' by that sort of background noise - it takes a while for your attention to come back to where it ought to be.
.
Makes sense, although the not drinking alcohol part is just sheer crazy talk ;)
Haselsh1
06-04-2016, 10:43
If 'burning in' is indeed a load of old tosh, why would an engine require running in from new...? Surely a loudspeaker is no different from an engine and could even indeed be the same or similar mechanism...? Loudspeakers definitely need running in for quite a while. Sue and I have proved this to ourselves.
Martyn Miles
06-04-2016, 10:46
Sorry, could you be a little clearer about your opinion, Martyn? :D
I used to think those who claimed to be able to hear the differences between joints made with lead solder, or neutric connectors, or whatever, were either deluded or bullsitters ... then it occurred to me that their ears may actually be better than mine. I used to have perfect eyesight and could never understand why others couldn't see what I did. Now it is failing, I can appreciate why others never believed I could possibly have seen what I claimed.
The posts above about 'resting' your ears, and the allusions to levels of background noise are interesting. Like others, I thought the mains got better late at night when the system always performed at its best. I'm now convinced most of it is ... me. I have taken to getting up at 5.30am and listening to music before the day begins. Not only relaxes me, but it 'sounds' spectacular ... rested ears in a quiet bedroom, followed by listening without any traffic background noise. I also find all the dynamics are there, even at very low volumes, whereas at other times during the day I end up listening at much louder levels to get the same effect.
Clearer?
It couldn't be clearer.
The idea that a cable can 'burn in' is absolute rubbish.
It's just a psychological effect, along with the so-called improvement between a ordinary mains
cable and one from a snake-oil purveyor.
Simon_LDT
06-04-2016, 10:47
The ear thing is most definitely true for me (and I bet a lot of people). I have days where my ears just don't sound right and I reckon it's from all the noise at work the night before. Sometimes I'll wake up and my ears are not right, probably because I've slept on my side/s for long periods that night. I'll then have a day or long periods where my hearing just seems to be better/unclogged. I can seem to then hear lots of details around me and this is when it's best to listen to music I find.
I've seriously had times when I've doubted my system but then come back to it a day or few days later and I'm wow'd by it and it reminds me how much I like it. It's certainly strange.
As regards to burn-in - I just don't believe it unless it has moving parts.
I find the same, Peter. It is our ears, not the mains.
I'm sure working in a busy office (about 40 staff) with aircon, printers, 40 odd computers humming away, spending a fair bit of time on the telephone and so on 'clogs' the ears a bit so when I get home I play louder to begin, then as time wears on, back the volume off without any sense of lost detail or dynamics or whatever.
From now on, I shall wear ear plugs at work. :D
I don't think anyone disputes that speakers need to run in from new - even Martyn ;)
It's a long, long time since I bought brand new speakers though.
From now on, I shall wear ear plugs at work. :D
My younger colleagues do complain about my 'selective deafness'
They have so much to learn :)
Haselsh1
06-04-2016, 11:16
Clearer?
It couldn't be clearer.
The idea that a cable can 'burn in' is absolute rubbish.
It's just a psychological effect, along with the so-called improvement between a ordinary mains
cable and one from a snake-oil purveyor.
Yeah, when it comes to burning in a piece of wire, I'm with Martyn. Could someone maybe explain to me how electrons 'burn in' a piece of wire...?
Haselsh1
06-04-2016, 11:18
As regards to burn-in - I just don't believe it unless it has moving parts.
Agreed +1
There is absolutely no doubt that your brain makes adjustments to accommodate sound quality, levels - and even balance; all confirmed by both a medical specialist and the guy who fitted my hearing aid a couple of decades ago.
I have a hearing deficiency in my right ear following a virus infection I picked up swimming at sea in the mid '80s, it has diminished high frequency response and overall volume level. When I first put my hearing aid in on a morning everything sound too bright and shrill - in the course of an hour or so I don't even notice it and all is harmonious again. More spectacular is listening via headphones. Most evenings I make a point of listening to Late Junction on BBC 3, as the headphones are uncomfortable with the hearing aid in I take it out. Initially the sound is imbalanced and the right channel brittle and indistinct but within about half an hour the sound fills out and the soundstage gets more symmetrical. By the end off the programme (90 mins) all is fabulous with great space and detailing.
I am sure the same effects are apparent and in train when we make any changes to our system rather than any specious claims about wire changing its physics. If indeed it did change when a signal passes though it, why would it stop changing after a certain period? Makes no sense to me at all ... and no, there are absolutely no parallels to be drawn between a hifi system and an internal combustion engine - the physics involved are of a totally different order.
Haselsh1
06-04-2016, 11:34
speakers yes, I can hear how our brand new speakers getting better and better. And is not just me as my missus saying same.
Rest, I am not sure and is hard to believe that anything can change in electronics by running it for some time. If so than there would be something wrong in it :eek:
Then what is it saying...?
Valves resistors and caps can and do change from new and for the better...dunno about transistors diodes etc.. Would also agree re your ears or how you hear things being dependant on how much noise and stress levels etc. No doubts about that... Stress is one of the biggest changers in human body to the point it can kill you, so not unreasonable to think it alters sound perception too...
But folk can believe what they want afaic
Oldpinkman
06-04-2016, 12:45
If 'burning in' is indeed a load of old tosh, why would an engine require running in from new...? Surely a loudspeaker is no different from an engine and could even indeed be the same or similar mechanism...? Loudspeakers definitely need running in for quite a while. Sue and I have proved this to ourselves.
Older drive units may have done. The speaker designers I talk to are adamant that modern speakers do not change with time or use. But clearly some mechanical things can run in. I am sure that the xx2ii cartridge changed a lot over the first 10 hours, and went through a "glitch" at about 100 - which follows the legend. But I had no way of going back and checking. Certainly the U205 I picked up changed over 10 hours, as its suspension collapsed.
As with your speakers. You are sure they changed - but you have no facility for going back and comparing the 3 month ones with new ones, and no ability to check whether other factors account for how they seem different now.
Oldpinkman
06-04-2016, 12:49
Valves resistors and caps can and do change from new and for the better...dunno about transistors diodes etc.. Would also agree re your ears or how you hear things being dependant on how much noise and stress levels etc. No doubts about that... Stress is one of the biggest changers in human body to the point it can kill you, so not unreasonable to think it alters sound perception too...
But folk can believe what they want afaic
Valves maybe. Resistors and caps? They are not going to sound different without performing different. Ultimately the sound of all these electronic components relates to how they make electrons flow. Amplifiers like the AHB2 simply could not be designed if these components were not stable. Spaceships would fall out of the sky.
They always have changed a bit from new sonically.. Electrlytics especially. Wont normally take long but it does happen. Resistors dont always notice but many will . im happy to be in the minority if thats the case but its been my experience.
As regards to burn-in - I just don't believe it unless it has moving parts.
Opinions vary...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/81355-capacitor-burn-break-7.html
Measurable and observable - and no moving parts!
One guys view and a good (if lengthy) read.
Doug Schroeder’s Audiophile Law #6: Thou Shalt Not Overemphasize Burn In
http://www.dagogo.com/doug-schroeders-audiophile-law-6-thou-shalt-not-overemphasize-burn-in
. Spaceships would fall out of the sky.
They do! Always. That's how they get back to Earth. Sometimes in an uncontrolled fashion, I'll admit. That happens when they forget to burn the flux capacitor in first.
Probably.
Even spaceships are built down to a price.
Older drive units may have done. The speaker designers I talk to are adamant that modern speakers do not change with time or use. But clearly some mechanical things can run in. I am sure that the xx2ii cartridge changed a lot over the first 10 hours, and went through a "glitch" at about 100 - which follows the legend. But I had no way of going back and checking. Certainly the U205 I picked up changed over 10 hours, as its suspension collapsed.
As with your speakers. You are sure they changed - but you have no facility for going back and comparing the 3 month ones with new ones, and no ability to check whether other factors account for how they seem different now.
This old chestnut, this is one of a number of links showing the TS parameters change over time so yes, 'speakers do run in...
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm
Valves maybe. Resistors and caps? They are not going to sound different without performing different. Ultimately the sound of all these electronic components relates to how they make electrons flow. Amplifiers like the AHB2 simply could not be designed if these components were not stable. Spaceships would fall out of the sky.
Go and talk to SQ about his experiences building the Paradise phono stages and the effect burn-in has on electrolytics...measurable and repeatable.
awkwardbydesign
06-04-2016, 13:34
..
Oldpinkman
06-04-2016, 14:14
Sure
Electrolytics burn out. Or rather wear out - deteriorate with age. Bloody tant beads do for sure.
That's not really the same as burn in. The idea they reach optimum performance after a bit of running. I am not going to pretend to know everything about every component made. When my friends design amplifiers (or speakers) they use components that are tight toleranced, and that they rely on not changing.
An AHB2 does not burn in . And accordingly none of the components on its board do so.
Haselsh1
06-04-2016, 16:37
As with your speakers. You are sure they changed - but you have no facility for going back and comparing the 3 month ones with new ones, and no ability to check whether other factors account for how they seem different now.
You are perfectly correct of course. The sound from the KEF's changed after about three months but there is nothing to compare them with other than how I remember they sounded when I first switched them on. There is also the fact that Sue perceived a change in sound also. Quite what this means in real terms, I haven't a clue.
Haselsh1
06-04-2016, 16:39
I remember on a similar note years ago when I bought a Kawasaki GPz750. After around four thousand miles this thing felt so free and easy compared to prior to that moment. The way this bike revved was, all of a sudden, totally different to how it had been. Imagination...? Quite possibly.
I would caution against any analogies between a motorbike engine and cables/resistors/capacitors.
RobbieGong
06-04-2016, 18:18
Exists in my experience. Burn-in or settle-in if you like. Equipment, cable, interconnects, carts, speakers blah blah blah :)
If 'burning in' is indeed a load of old tosh, why would an engine require running in from new...? Surely a loudspeaker is no different from an engine and could even indeed be the same or similar mechanism...? Loudspeakers definitely need running in for quite a while. Sue and I have proved this to ourselves.
how is a loud speaker like an engine?
what parts need running in?
does the cabinet need running in?
do you need to change the oil after the first 600 hours of listening?
how is a loud speaker like an engine?
what parts need running in?
does the cabinet need running in?
do you need to change the oil after the first 600 hours of listening?
...they have moving parts. Transducers take a while to loosen up and settle in.
ok let me put it another way,how do you run in a speaker?
Any similarities between an engine and any piece of Hi-Fi are so fleeting and minuscule as to be essentially meaningless.
ok let me put it another way,how do you run in a speaker?
By playing music through them. Or if you are geeky, using frequency sweeps, pink noise etc. I don't see the point in that though!
Rubber speaker surrounds for example are tighter out of the box, and stretch a bit when they run in. Ferrofluids may also need to be used, so that they distribute evenly - it can dry out in more extreme circumstances.
Any similarities between an engine and any piece of Hi-Fi are so fleeting and minuscule as to be essentially meaningless.
100 times agree!
walpurgis
06-04-2016, 19:21
Moving coil speaker cones display what are called 'cone breakup modes'. This is the flexing/distorting of the cone material as the speaker is driven. This forms patterns within the cone material and these patterns tend to develop in the same place each time the speaker is used as these patterns become set to an extent. This is more obvious in paper cones than synthetic cones.
I have always found that my system sounds a lot better after the third bottle of wine.
StanleyB
07-04-2016, 12:08
:eek:. You are not supposed to pour wine over your audio equipment.
:eek:. You are not supposed to pour wine over your audio equipment.
That explains a lot.
Its not a good system unless its blown up at least twice
brucew268
15-05-2016, 12:13
Speaker cables – A few months after I bought some proper Hi-Fi speakers in the 90’s I decided to see if there were differences between basic and hi-dosh speaker cables, so over a few couple weekends I borrowed 7 different pair in the $400-700 range. All had been previously “burned in” except for 2 of them. I was surprised to readily hear differences between each loudspeaker cable, as were my girlfriend and my house-mate. The two cables that were new changed their sound character significantly over the 48 hours of playing time. One of them was directional and I found the sound presentation significantly changed when switching ends.
Interconnects - I assumed that if it was true of speaker cables it was also likely true of interconnects, but never really tested it. I also found differences between the sound of different interconnects in the same price/performance tier, but MUCH more subtle.
Electronics - have noticed some change in sound over the first week from new or when soldering in some new bits. Usually disliked the sound, left it on play for a 2-4 days and then came back to listen again to find some changes, some good, some bad, and then came back a few days later to find the presentation had ‘matured‘ and become a bit more refined and balanced. Also found this on some portable players but not on others. I’ve suspected that the DIY results were not just the capacitors or other bits forming but the new solder joints settling, but I’ve not checked that rigorously.
Speakers: Definitely!
I used a Theta DAC that took 36-48 hours for the sound to stabilise and sound good EVERY time it was powered off and on. The dealer acknowledged that this was known of the higher end Theta processors. Don’t know why, but it was demonstrable, and annoying enough with 48 hours wait each time that I tired of demonstrating it.
With new kit or soldering changes, in order to lessen the effect of brain adjustment, I would usually leave for most of the burn in time and only come back for a check once every day or two.
I’ve generally found that my experiences have been the opposite of expectation bias – I was rather surprised at what I heard which was nearly opposite to what I expected. However, I’ve sometimes made a change, such as to speaker placement, acoustic panels, equipment isolation, mechanical damping and enjoyed the change, only to realise a couple weeks later that I lost something else in the process and that had been masked by enjoyment of the good aspects of the change. That being said, most equipment cones (wood, metal) I have hated what they did to the sound and yanked them quickly even though there were some euphonic results.
BTW: I agree that expectation bias is a real phenomenon, and also that my listening experience can be influenced significantly by what my ears have tolerated that day or how I am feeling physically or otherwise.
Virtual-Symmetry
15-05-2016, 12:30
Ive never heard a single bit of difference between new & anything later on.
BTH K10A
15-05-2016, 17:43
I'm of the opinion that the effects of burn in are only noticeable if your amplifier(s) go DC
With regard to DACs and cables I'm more inclined to the psychological rather than the physical explanation. It is just as real in that it is as real as anything else we perceive of the external world, so that's not to diminish anyone's experience (including mine) with the phenomena.
I'll often listen quite intensely especially if I have changed something and I'm aware that when you are giving something that level of concentration the mind can play tricks.
Now if you have had a 'burn in' experience that was so unsubtle that you could demonstrate it to some civilian you just dragged in off the street, then that's a different matter. I've not had that experience myself.
The only time I've experienced significant burn-in effects is from Black Gate caps. The rest I put down to my ear / brain interface burning in to a new presentation.
EDIT: there are also warm-up effects; some gear left cold does sound different. Krell & LFD springs to mind!
I bought an Linn LK100 power amp off a bloke and he said that the top end sweetened up once it had warmed up.
I listened for it but couldn't really detect anything. It sounded fine from the off = better than my previous amp anyway - and I suppose if there is an effect it is very small.
Believer in burn in here.
Experienced it with lot of kit, particularly my new 300B SET amp.
Fair ammount of solid state in there as well as new transformers (brannie trannies?) and the valves of course.
Very noticable change in sound over time, opened right up.
fatmarley
16-05-2016, 20:52
Sanyo os-con capacitors sound terrible when new (depending on where they are in the circuit). I sat down for a listen after fitting some in a Naim preamp and couldn't believe how thin and rough they sounded, but the next day they were great. Had the same experience twice and it was such a big difference that I can't possibly see how it could have been my imagination.
I know a famous electronics designer who said the same about polymer capacitors on an audio forum, but the poor sod got hammered for it. I felt sorry for the poor bugger because I knew he was telling the truth.
I guess the majority of older folk have already made their minds up re this. If you are staunchly in one camp then nowts gonna change it :D and that goes for miracle gizmos too . Some folk of course say one thing as they may not wish to admit certain things in case they get hammered for it as well.
StanleyB
17-05-2016, 08:59
All of my DACs require burn in. I have tested this over and over again just to make sure. I start off by trying out two brand new, never used DACs of the same batch. They are given a quick five minutes audio test to make sure no obvious audible difference exists. Then I put one away and put one on a constant play mode for a day or two. Afterwards I compare them again for any audible difference. There is always a difference, most notably in the bass and the upper highs. I use one of my TC-7240 switches to flick between DAC outputs so that there is a reduced level of memory effect.
unfairlane
17-05-2016, 09:46
As an old diy`er I`ve came to learn a bit about this topic too. All components seem to have a certain static load (my therory) that needs to be neutralized. This can be quite audible in some components but not so audible in other components. And like most audio-stuff this has been take too far by some.
As an example; a fresh soldering will need about 30 minutes to "open up" and dissapear while a tin-foil cap in a pre-amp will need most of a year if it`s not massaged
Sanyo os-con capacitors sound terrible when new (depending on where they are in the circuit). I sat down for a listen after fitting some in a Naim preamp and couldn't believe how thin and rough they sounded, but the next day they were great. Had the same experience twice and it was such a big difference that I can't possibly see how it could have been my imagination.
I know a famous electronics designer who said the same about polymer capacitors on an audio forum, but the poor sod got hammered for it. I felt sorry for the poor bugger because I knew he was telling the truth.
Capacitor burn-in is measurable. I have also heard the effects for myself & am convinced that it is caps that account for real, audible burn-in changes.
Clearly Cap 'forming' can be real And measurable.
But Half a year is a ...bit beyond... the realm of credulity.
More Plausibly:eyebrows: the result of a tired Brains' adaptation.
unfairlane
18-05-2016, 08:00
Clearly Cap 'forming' can be real And measurable.
But Half a year is a ...bit beyond... the realm of credulity.
More Plausibly:eyebrows: the result of a tired Brains' adaptation.
Why do you comment a topic like this if you do not have any real experience? Beacause you "think" or "feel"? Most diy`ers know that tinfoil-caps needs 9 monts+ on signal level like in a pre. But on the other hand; then they "dissapear" totally, they`re worth it.
My first "Holy Sh*it" experience on this matter was with a pair of JBL 4312`s. Out of the box they sounded like tin cans, large tin cans that is. I let them play for 4-6 hours and went about mye other doings. Later when I went up the stairs to mye listening space I immediately felt this weird sensation. Something had loosened up and the JBL-sound I expected were more prominent. I skipped to the previous tracks I first started out with, and wow! I was quite amazed how much better they sounded! They played all night long, and the soundstage changed for the better! I never thought a set of speakers would change so much in so little time though!
I did notice something along the same lines with my 3419, but they sounded amazing out of the box! They did have that huge leap of change as the 4312 though.
Really?
Never.. Ever.. heard an interminable /prolonged burn-in on the Tin Foil caps I experimented with.
Hours ? erm OK.. a couple of Weeks ?..maybe / arguably :-)
But longer? Not on my planet
In truth I also didn't think they lived up to their Brochure Babble hype either.
Not that that matters.
Brain sensory/adaptation however, Is a proven phenomena.
Clearly, audio beliefs like everywhere else .. are not universal.
The taking umbrage bit, seems as odd reaction
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