View Full Version : Fuse
Pieoftheday
28-03-2016, 18:44
How does a 'special' fuse improve your hi-fi? Is it snake oil/bollox?
walpurgis
28-03-2016, 19:03
I don't know. Are they directional and need burning in? :scratch:
I don't know. Are they directional and need burning in? :scratch:
Some would say "yes" and "yes they do". :rolleyes: Do you really want to spend £25 a pop?
some say burned out ones sound best ;)
walpurgis
28-03-2016, 19:16
Some would say "yes" and "yes they do".
If these are directional and you burn one in the wrong way round, are there consequences? :eek:
If these are directional and you burn one in the wrong way round, are there consequences? :eek:
:) Like it!
If these are directional and you burn one in the wrong way round, are there consequences? :eek:
Yes, you have to change the direction of the circuit breakers in your CU. :D
How does a 'special' fuse improve your hi-fi? Is it snake oil/bollox?
I have had some strange things happen with fuses some folk would not believe. I had a slow blow fuse go and replaced it with a very cheap Maplin fuse and my system sounded quite a bit better after especially dynamics but I can't explain why.
I then got very interested in fuses and bought some expensive types but they were no better:scratch:
walpurgis
28-03-2016, 20:18
Yes, you have to change the direction of the circuit breakers in your CU. :D
But surely the fuse would only be correctly directional for one phase (half) of the 50Hz mains cycle and reverse directional for the other possibly? :scratch:
Has research has been undertaken to look into the effects of this?
BTH K10A
28-03-2016, 20:56
Thats where the dipolar fuse comes in handy as is alleviates those bipolar moments
walpurgis
28-03-2016, 21:02
Thats where the dipolar fuse comes in handy as is alleviates those bipolar moments
Would this be effectively be a dual fuse with each section polarised and working in opposite directions? Sounds an interesting component.
wonder if anyone has tried linking out the fuse to see if it sounds any different.? oh wait, think thats been done. Not big on fuses causing too much of a problem un less they are faulty
maybe at outputs they may, but doubt mains ones would (just my opinion mind)
BTH K10A
28-03-2016, 22:00
Would this be effectively be a dual fuse with each section polarised and working in opposite directions? Sounds an interesting component.
Yes the theory is based on an analogy with the eigenmode expansion of a vibrating string with fixed endpoints
walpurgis
28-03-2016, 22:29
Yes the theory is based on an analogy with the eigenmode expansion of a vibrating string with fixed endpoints
Ah. The sub-harmonic interaction factor must be significant then.
BTH K10A
29-03-2016, 04:58
Ah. The sub-harmonic interaction factor must be significant then.
Yes but dampening rings can help calm things down a bit
I didn't think water and electrics mixed well?
Firebottle
29-03-2016, 06:27
..........that's floatation rings you are thinking about :eyebrows:
Pieoftheday
29-03-2016, 06:30
Bollox then, i thought as much:)
Though interestingly sound quality can improve with "no fuse" hardwired equipment....
Would that suggest fuses CAN have an effect?
And if so..do some have less than others? :scratch:
I would not say it's a load of bollox, like cables its best to keep an open mind on the subject.
As I have found everything matters in hifi!
Pieoftheday
29-03-2016, 09:14
I would not say it's a load of bollox, like cables its best to keep an open mind on the subject.
As I have found everything matters in hifi!
Always try to have an open mind,my reason for the post was seeing 'hifi' fuses selling for 20 odd quid:scratch:
anthonyTD
29-03-2016, 09:16
Guys,
There have been discusions on fuses here a few times over the years,[Do a search if interested] In my experience, yes, fuses do make a diffrence, after-all, they are the weakest link in the power supply, which is what they are designed to be!
However, again, from my own personal, and profesional experience, so-called HI FI fuses, and the use of, should be treated with absolute Caution!
A...
walpurgis
29-03-2016, 09:28
As I have found everything matters in hifi!
Mainly the expense! :D
Always try to have an open mind,my reason for the post was seeing 'hifi' fuses selling for 20 odd quid:scratch:
They do sell for even more but wether they work or improve sound quality is highly subjective and probably system dependant.
Like all things price does not always equate to better SQ.
There are so many fuses to replace in a system its finding the ones that make a difference and it might be you have to change them all to get a difference and is that difference better?
Can be expensive and possibly frustrating.
Pieoftheday
29-03-2016, 09:39
Thanks all, I reckon I'd rather spend 20 quid on a bottle of jamesons:cool: Jim
anthonyTD
29-03-2016, 09:51
Aye, :D
As others have said, certain types of ordinary ones are worth trying, as long as you keep to the correct type ie; S, T, F, and current rating etc.
Thanks all, I reckon I'd rather spend 20 quid on a bottle of jamesons:cool: Jim
Also it's worth keeping in mind fuses age over time especially the closer they are run to their maximum rating. I see no harm once in a while replacing fuses with standard types, mains, psu supply rail or o/p ones. It costs little apart from your time and if it improves the sound then you have lost nothing and gained a bit...
Arkless Electronics
29-03-2016, 12:23
It is indeed bollox.
anthonyTD
29-03-2016, 13:08
:eek:Dont hold back Jez, tell us what you realy think! :lol:
It is indeed bollox.
Arkless Electronics
29-03-2016, 13:20
:eek:Dont hold back Jez, tell us what you realy think! :lol:
That I can be relied on for.
anthonyTD
29-03-2016, 13:22
:)
That I can be relied on for.
But surely the fuse would only be correctly directional for one phase (half) of the 50Hz mains cycle and reverse directional for the other possibly? :scratch:
Has research has been undertaken to look into the effects of this?
That's the argument for dismissing directional effects in (symmetric) cables. Yes, it's all a load of nonsense IMO.
It is indeed bollox.
Not from my personal experiences, Yours are? However I really cannot be bothered to argue the toss over this subject.
For those who might be curious there is a looooooong running thread here,
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
At $175 a fuse, I would rather spend that on software! Have these enthusiasts replaced all the domestic wiring back to the transformer, and beyond?
Arkless Electronics
29-03-2016, 13:56
Not from my personal experiences, Yours are? However I really cannot be bothered to argue the toss over this subject.
For those who might be curious there is a looooooong running thread here,
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
I also can't be bothered to argue about it but will state with 100% confidence that it is bollox. That is my professional opinion and all I have to say on the subject...
If fuses do cause differences and ive not really noticed then i would assume direction would count as they will not be the same at both ends especially as ones..but qbs as well will have differences.
The important bit is like for like replacement.
I also can't be bothered to argue about it but will state with 100% confidence that it is bollox. That is my professional opinion and all I have to say on the subject...
And so your Empirical experience with regard to this subject amounts to ZIP!
If fuses do cause differences and ive not really noticed then i would assume direction would count as they will not be the same at both ends especially as ones..but qbs as well will have differences.
The important bit is like for like replacement.
Not every fuse that I have experimented with has exhibited audible directionality Grant, however some have and are, an example would be the Synergistic Research range.
I also can't be bothered to argue about it but will state with 100% confidence that it is bollox. That is my professional opinion and all I have to say on the subject...
Opinion but not fact.
Not every fuse that I have experimented with has exhibited audible directionality Grant, however some have and are, an example would be the Synergistic Research range.
My system may well not be able to resolve those differences. I dont know but mo ing to a regenerator certainly hped as did the filter box from belkin. Usually open any ideas that have some basis in my logic. I find for instance the densen disc works for me although many say its pish....thats up to them but it wont bother me as i know.
My system may well not be able to resolve those differences. I dont know but mo ing to a regenerator certainly hped as did the filter box from belkin. Usually open any ideas that have some basis in my logic. I find for instance the densen disc works for me although many say its pish....thats up to them but it wont bother me as i know.
Some after market Fuses are by no means a slam dunk certainty to be markedly Superior /Sound different/ User preferable, to the factory fitted units, the quality 4 amp Slo Blo as supplied in recent ARC Ref Pre and Power amplifiers being a case in point.
sq225917
29-03-2016, 15:40
I would not say it's a load of bollox, like cables its best to keep an open mind on the subject.
As I have found everything matters in hifi!
Stepping back and looking logically at your previous post, might it be explained by the following series of events. Dirty pins on plug cleaned by fitting of new fuse. Therefore no further change possible when a newer fuse was tried shortly thereafter.
I think you need a pot of brasso.
Performance fuses are 100% bullshit. They are a current limiting device, no more no less, they impart no special properties.
Performance fuses are 100% bullshit. They are a current limiting device, no more no less, they impart no special properties.
I'd have to disagree with the first bit as (being the mains nerd I am) have compared two otherwise identical mains leads against each other, and in one of the 13A plugs there was a bog-standard 13A fuse, and in the other, an 'audiophile version'.
Therefore, as both mains leads were simply compared directly to each other, without fuses being swapped over, no cleaning of dirty pins had occurred - and there *was* a subtle difference in the performance between both mains leads.
The equipment (a CD player) connected with the mains lead, which was fitted with the 'fancy fuse', benefited from a clearer and more detailed sound [removal of a 'veiling effect'], and overall what I often hear and attribute to when a 'bottleneck' has either been removed, or its effect significantly ameliorated - and I put that down to the reduced impedance and/or resistance offered by the materials used in the 'audiophile fuse', which I'm sure could be measured.
So indeed no "special properties", just simple physics :)
Marco.
Radford Revival
29-03-2016, 16:30
Out of curiosity I just measured the resistance of a bog standard 3A plug fuse, it measured 47mOhm, ie 0.047 ohms. So differences between fuses of the same value will boil down to changes on the order of 0.01-0.02ohms in the mains line.
The voltage drop caused by such a tiny resistance is hugely dwarfed by moment to moment changes in mains voltage. Resistances on the order of smallish difference in mains cable length. Or depending on what outlet in the house you plug it into, or perhaps even the tempco of the copper in the mains transformer in the bit of kit.
Does a company that sells audiophile fuses even have the probably quite substantial tooling and machinery to produce them? Someone cynical might think they just buy in bog standard fuses, rebadge them and gold plate the ends but surely not!!!
Arkless Electronics
29-03-2016, 16:43
Out of curiosity I just measured the resistance of a bog standard 3A plug fuse, it measured 47mOhm, ie 0.047 ohms. So differences between fuses of the same value will boil down to changes on the order of 0.01-0.02ohms in the mains line.
The voltage drop caused by such a tiny resistance is hugely dwarfed by moment to moment changes in mains voltage. Resistances on the order of smallish difference in mains cable length. Or depending on what outlet in the house you plug it into, or perhaps even the tempco of the copper in the mains transformer in the bit of kit.
Does a company that sells audiophile fuses even have the probably quite substantial tooling and machinery to produce them? Someone cynical might think they just buy in bog standard fuses, rebadge them and gold plate the ends but surely not!!!
Yes indeedy on all counts there.... so they are 100% unalloyed bullshit.
One position where a fuse can have an effect (and I've mentioned this loads of times on various sites) and that is when it is in line with the speaker, whether fitted in the amp or the speaker (if in the speaker the bass section will be most effected). The make of fuse is clearly irrelevant but the point is that if a fuse is small enough in rating to have a chance of actually protecting the speaker then it will certainly be so small that it will have a detrimental effect on sound quality.
I well recall the effect of removing and bypassing the 2A fuse in the crossover of my Mission 770's many years ago... it was not subtle!
That's interesting, Will (as indeed your posts always are) :)
Again, as a self-confessed mains nerd, I've taken apart some 'audiophile fuses' (in this case those from Hi-Fi Tuning, which I use in my CDP and DAC) and found inside (as stated) silver filaments, along of course with silver end-caps, on the outside.
It is both of those elements I put down to (although I cannot prove) the improved sonics, as a result of reduced impedance and/or resistance.
After all (although tiny), a filament is a piece if wire, subject to such considerations like any other. Furthermore, if you can hear a difference after polishing the end-caps of fuses (and pins) on plugs, as many can, then why wouldn't the same be the case when producing end-caps on fuses from metals known to offer superior conductivity?
However, I would state that the level of improvement gained is never of the 'night and day' variety. This is simply subtle, icing on the cake stuff, carried out by the anally performance conscious, once everything else much more important in a system has been attended to :cool:
Marco.
I am glad I don't have fuses in my plugs to worry about.
Indeed - the best fuse is no fuse! ;)
I only use fuses in the mains leads for my CDP and DAC, simply because they're connected to a filter, which is fitted with 13A sockets. Everything else in my system is hard-wired directly to the incoming mains supply...
Marco.
narabdela
29-03-2016, 17:15
Always try to have an open mind...
...but not so open that your brains fall out. :nono:
Out of curiosity I just measured the resistance of a bog standard 3A plug fuse, it measured 47mOhm, ie 0.047 ohms. So differences between fuses of the same value will boil down to changes on the order of 0.01-0.02ohms in the mains line.
The voltage drop caused by such a tiny resistance is hugely dwarfed by moment to moment changes in mains voltage. Resistances on the order of smallish difference in mains cable length. Or depending on what outlet in the house you plug it into, or perhaps even the tempco of the copper in the mains transformer in the bit of kit.
Does a company that sells audiophile fuses even have the probably quite substantial tooling and machinery to produce them? Someone cynical might think they just buy in bog standard fuses, rebadge them and gold plate the ends but surely not!!!
The voice of reason and common sense :clapclapclap:
100% spot on Will.
Yes indeedy on all counts there.... so they are 100% unalloyed bullshit.
One position where a fuse can have an effect (and I've mentioned this loads of times on various sites) and that is when it is in line with the speaker, whether fitted in the amp or the speaker (if in the speaker the bass section will be most effected). The make of fuse is clearly irrelevant but the point is that if a fuse is small enough in rating to have a chance of actually protecting the speaker then it will certainly be so small that it will have a detrimental effect on sound quality.
I well recall the effect of removing and bypassing the 2A fuse in the crossover of my Mission 770's many years ago... it was not subtle!
Basically, it will be higher impedance than Will's tests for mains fuses because it needs to blow well short of 3Amps, and it'll probably get warm to hot with loud playing, so will have an impedance tolerance that varies with temperature. This is indeed undesirable ahead of a crossover circuit since it will basically affect sensitivity and damping factor detrimentally. The best fuse in a crossover circuit is no fuse. If the amp is correctly designed and to spec, it shouldn't be necessary. For those listening loud enough to damage the speakers with a properly specified amp correctly matched to avoid clipping, you probably run the risk of permanent hearing damage if you drive the speakers loud enough to damage them anyway.
Arkless Electronics
29-03-2016, 17:41
Basically, it will be higher impedance than Will's tests for mains fuses because it needs to blow well short of 3Amps, and it'll probably get warm to hot with loud playing, so will have an impedance tolerance that varies with temperature. This is indeed undesirable ahead of a crossover circuit since it will basically affect sensitivity and damping factor detrimentally. The best fuse in a crossover circuit is no fuse. If the amp is correctly designed and to spec, it shouldn't be necessary. For those listening loud enough to damage the speakers with a properly specified amp correctly matched to avoid clipping, you probably run the risk of permanent hearing damage if you drive the speakers loud enough to damage them anyway.
That is quite correct yes. I have actually measured this effect myself and can confirm its existence. It is also mentioned in a few texts on the subject.
At very low frequencies the fuse thermally cycles with the waveform causing mainly 3rd harmonic distortion. At other frequencies there is an "envelope modulation" effect.
Just to be a pedant, a fuse has resistance not impedance at audio frequencies of course.
That is quite correct yes. I have actually measured this effect myself and can confirm its existence. It is also mentioned in a few texts on the subject.
At very low frequencies the fuse thermally cycles with the waveform causing mainly 3rd harmonic distortion. At other frequencies there is an "envelope modulation" effect.
Just to be a pedant, a fuse has resistance not impedance at audio frequencies of course.
Quite correct Jez, it is resistance, my error. Impedance on the brain! The thermal cycling is a very real and measurable effect and the resulting distortion is a relatively easy thing to prove through measurement as well as using the mk1 lug-holes. Many speaker designs used to use fuses though, and some continue to use them. Fair enough for PA systems where it is probably sensible, but they have no place in a hifi speaker set up imho. Almost as bad as series fuses, are circuits using ridiculously under specified resistors. No names mentioned, but there's a specific brand of speaker where I have yet to find said resistors without evidence of very high temperatures (scorch marks around them) or burnt out completely. Extreme cost cutting to the point of greed.
anthonyTD
29-03-2016, 18:18
I have to disagree about all of these so-called HI FI fuses being just ordinary types etc.
I have seen the damage first hand that has been caused by someone substituting one in the mains input of one of the big Tube Technology amps.
When inspected, the fuse was the correct current rating, ie; same as the one specified for the amp etc, except it retailed at around £65-00 [I kid you not] Amp with original fuse in was absolutely fine, no issues, etc.
HI FI fuse fitted,switched on the amp, Bang! on close inspection, the whole fuse holder top was missing, plus the fuse.
After fitting a new fuse holder top, and Standard fuse, no more issues. HI FI Fuse found, no damage, ie; fuse element still intact.
What I am trying to get at is; there is definately something diffrent about some of them, and not in a good way, the amp in question uses quite large toroid transformers, which when initialy energised pose a very, very low impedance to the mains supply, with the standard fuse in, no issues.
Which leads me to believe that there is a diffrence in their internal resistance, how they achieve this, I am not entirely sure, but safe to say, from this one episode [and I have had other customers who have had similar experiences, though not as violent] I would always advise folk to stick with the standard type fuses supplied with their equipment, as I said in an earlier post here, yes, experiment with diffrent makes of Standard Types if you have a bit of time, and want to prove to yourself one way or the other, but always like for like as far as current rating and type, ie; Slow blow, Time delay, Fast blow.
Hope this helps.
A...
Pieoftheday
29-03-2016, 18:43
I pretty sure I won't be bothering with 'hifi' fuses, it has been interesting reading people's views though
I pretty sure I won't be bothering with 'hifi' fuses, it has been interesting reading people's views though
Tho rather long on theoretical opinion, short on Empirical practical experience.
For the record, I have ***Hands On*** rejected notably more products that might be termed 'Voodoo' that have not exhibited any perceivable improvment IMHO, within my Rooms and Systems over the years, than I ever have discerned an audible positive and Proceeded to make an acquisition.
On this particular item one may merely theorise from the sidelines, or may avail oneself of the 30 day return policy built into the purchase of any Synergistic Research Fuse and actually make ones own mind up, one way or the other, from a position of experience.
Stepping back and looking logically at your previous post, might it be explained by the following series of events. Dirty pins on plug cleaned by fitting of new fuse. Therefore no further change possible when a newer fuse was tried shortly thereafter.
I think you need a pot of brasso.
Performance fuses are 100% bullshit. They are a current limiting device, no more no less, they impart no special properties.
maybe a stupid question but it would seem to me that tarnished pins in the mains plug are no more likely to affect the sound quality than the make of fuse in the plug. This isn't stuff in the signal path, after all, and surely the current will either flow or it won't?
Arkless Electronics
30-03-2016, 13:26
maybe a stupid question but it would seem to me that tarnished pins in the mains plug are no more likely to affect the sound quality than the make of fuse in the plug. This isn't stuff in the signal path, after all, and surely the current will either flow or it won't?
That's about right yes. Far too much fuss is made over non existent "improvements" to mains supply in my view. If you can plug a 2KW electric fire into that there normal mains socket and with a normal plug and fuse and it functions correctly then there's hardly any issue in powering your hi fi! So many weird claims are made over "improvements" such as this which knowledge of electricity/electronics soon shows to be impossible or at least tenuous beyond belief... strange how they're all things which can be bought as an after market accessory and fitted in minutes by non technical folks is it not? :eyebrows:
In the case of fuses (and even mains leads) just think of all the other impediments to this nirvana of perfect power.... What about the contacts in the fuse holder on the back/inside the equipment? Then the pressed together/riveted links of the IEC socket? Push on connectors to the back of the IEC socket followed by more on the rear of the on/off switch.... the contacts in the on/off switch, often further push on connectors to the transformer, sometimes with another fuse first, often push on connectors from secondary of the mains transformer to the board.... where there will likely be another fuse with its own fuseholder in the secondary circuit.
maybe a stupid question but it would seem to me that tarnished pins in the mains plug are no more likely to affect the sound quality than the make of fuse in the plug. This isn't stuff in the signal path, after all, and surely the current will either flow or it won't?
Current still flows, but the point is, tarnished/oxidised pins increase resistance, the effect of which can both be heard and measured. I'm pretty sure that almost everyone who's polished the pins on their mains plugs with Brasso (and or fuse contacts), or used 'DeOxit' on them, has heard the difference afterwards - and due to the electrical effect previously mentioned, that difference certainly isn't imagined ;)
Marco.
Current still flows, but the point is, tarnished/oxidised pins increase resistance, the effect of which can both be heard and measured. I'm pretty sure that almost everyone who's polished the pins on their mains plugs with Brasso (and or fuse contacts), or used 'DeOxit' on them, has heard the difference afterwards - and due to the electrical effect previously mentioned, that difference certainly isn't imagined ;)
Marco.
Increased impedance can effect sound quality, yes, if it is in the signal path. But in the mains supply? As Jez says if there was an effect here then plugging in an electric fire, or a lamp with a plug that is tarnished enough to increase impedance would have an effect on and it clearly doesn't.
if there is a real effect then I don't see how reduced impedance can be the explanation.
Reduced resistance I believe is the main cause for the change, not impedance, although impedance may also be affected. Jez, or someone else can confirm.
Anyway, many others and I have been doing the polishing thing for years, and the effect is clearly audible. One of the most significant places to do it is on the end-caps of the main (usually 100A) fuse in your incoming mains supply, often located inside a box beside your meter.
When I first did that many years ago (along with up-rating the fuse itself from 80 to 100A), I couldn't believe the sonic improvement it produced, simply by polishing the end-caps of that particular fuse and the pins on the holder! [Note: both the fuse up-rating and polishing effect were assessed in isolation] :eek:
Next time I'm down at yours, and we have some time, I'll bring some bits along and we'll do some fuse/pins polishing, and you can judge things for yourself! :cool:
Marco.
Always get a good shine with mains still on;). Think its the heat generated:D.
Aye, a good 'shine' and a new curly hairstyle! :D
Marco.
Impedance is resistance, isn't it?
I' m not one to take an absolutist stance on anything, this included, but it does rank as one of the more extreme areas of tweaking.
I have brasso I suppose I could clean the plug pins and prongs and see if I can detect a difference that is beyond what could be dismissed as placebo or expectation. With this sort of thing I rarely do. I can't distinguish between m fancy mains cable with fancy fuse versus a stock cable for instance.
No worries. Try it and see what you think, particularly if you can get access to the main house fuse next to your meter, and polish the end caps on that. It needs to be done to a 'mirror-like' shine!
However, if you do try it, bear in mind that you'll effectively be cutting the power for the whole house while you carry out the polishing, so as long as that doesn't present a problem, you'll be ok :)
The reason I'm recommending that one is that the effect is generally more noticeable than simply polishing the pins on your plugs.
Marco.
Impedance is resistance, isn't it?
I' m not one to take an absolutist stance on anything, this included, but it does rank as one of the more extreme areas of tweaking.
I have brasso I suppose I could clean the plug pins and prongs and see if I can detect a difference that is beyond what could be dismissed as placebo or expectation. With this sort of thing I rarely do. I can't distinguish between m fancy mains cable with fancy fuse versus a stock cable for instance.
not quite. its more complicated than that.
Arkless Electronics
30-03-2016, 17:23
Impedance is resistance, isn't it?
I' m not one to take an absolutist stance on anything, this included, but it does rank as one of the more extreme areas of tweaking.
I have brasso I suppose I could clean the plug pins and prongs and see if I can detect a difference that is beyond what could be dismissed as placebo or expectation. With this sort of thing I rarely do. I can't distinguish between m fancy mains cable with fancy fuse versus a stock cable for instance.
Not exactly no. Impedance is the total of the frequency dependent reactance (capacitive or inductive. It can even change from one to the other as frequency changes) and the resistance. There must be a capacitance or inductance involved for the value to be an impedance rather than a pure resistance.
Ultimately everything is reactive and has impedance if you go high enough in frequency but this is not relevant to much in hi fi. IE a 1cm length of wire is an inductor (a choke) if we are talking 500MHz but at any audio frequency (and far beyond) it is just a 1cm bit of wire.... If we have many turns of wire as in the voice coil of a speaker then the inductance becomes significant at audio frequencies hence an 8 Ohm speaker is actually about 5.4 Ohms DC resistance but the total impedance is 8 Ohm.... usually at 1KHz. An impedance really needs a qualifying statement of "@ "X" KHz" to be meaningful.
Other than that we are in danger of the usual circular argument etc. I can use electronics theory and my decades of professional experience from now till the 12th of never to show that audiophile fuses and mains cables are total tosh and cannot possibly have any effect but those that "believe" will continue to do so and I'll probably get told off for dissing the opinions of those who believe in the technical equivalent of homeopathy or pixie dust...
BTH K10A
30-03-2016, 17:26
Reduced resistance I believe is the main cause for the change, not impedance, although impedance may also be affected. Jez, or someone else can confirm.
Anyway, many others and I have been doing the polishing thing for years, and the effect is clearly audible. One of the most significant places to do it is on the end-caps of the main (usually 100A) fuse in your incoming mains supply, often located inside a box beside your meter.
When I first did that (along with up-rating the fuse itself from 80 to 100A), I couldn't believe the sonic improvement it produced, simply by polishing the end-caps of that particular fuse and the pins on the holder! [Note: both the fuse up-rating and polishing effect were assessed in isolation] :eek:
Next time I'm down at yours, and we have some time, I'll bring some bits along and we'll do some fuse/pins polishing, and you can judge things for yourself! :cool:
Marco.
Perhaps things have changed and I'm wrong but I thought the main fuse had wire seals to prevent tampering and only the DNO could change the fuse or it's rating.
Mine has big lugs on each end and is bolted in. Personally I would not touch it as that may have all sorts of implications.box
Arkless Electronics
30-03-2016, 17:31
Perhaps things have changed and I'm wrong but I thought the main fuse had wire seals to prevent tampering and only the DNO could change the fuse or it's rating.
Mine has big lugs on each end and is bolted in. Personally I would not touch it as that may have all sorts of implications.box
Indeed. Also if the main fuse can simultaneously power the cooker, shower, kettle, electric fire etc, maybe 20KW, then how is it going to effect your 300W draw hi fi?
Ohms law easily shows that if there was even the slightest effect on the hi fi (voltage drop due to resistance of dirty contacts on fuse etc) then the above listed heavy current appliances would not even work!
Perhaps things have changed and I'm wrong but I thought the main fuse had wire seals to prevent tampering and only the DNO could change the fuse or it's rating.
Some are sealed like that and some aren't, Andy. Older installations, such as mine, tend to come into the latter category, and modern/recent installations in the former, where you have to get someone from your electricity supplier to change the fuse. In that instance, you shouldn't touch it yourself.
However, you can ask for a free upgrade, if the fuse fitted is less than 100A, in order to facilitate the use of high current-draw appliances, such as power showers, which weren't fitted when the original main fuse was supplied.
A 100A fuse is the best and safest one to have, especially with all the high current-drain modern appliances around now, such as power showers, etc, which can place a significant drain on your mains supply. 100A, in that respect, gives you sufficient 'headroom' to make things safe.
My main fuse, for example, was housed inside a black bakelite casing, with '100A' written on the outside (most likely fitted in the 60s), and could simply be pulled out, which I duly did, and found an 80A one inside! I then went to my local City Electrical Factors and bought a new 100A fuse, for about £10, polished the end caps on it to a deep shine, including the brass contact pins on the fuse holder itself, and banged it back in - and bloody hell, the improvement in the sound of my system afterwards was rather profound to say the least! :eek:
That was even before I installed a dedicated mains spur...
Marco.
I am glad I don't have fuses in my plugs to worry about.
This x 1000
(Listen up people!)
Somebody unmentionable was right. (Doesn't make him a good person though..)
Sorry Marco.
Somebody unmentionable was right. (Doesn't make him a good person though..)
Sorry Marco.
Soz, dude, dunno wotcha mean... :scratch:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-03-2016, 18:21
I would not recommend removing mains fuses and bypassing them! :eek: Try telling the insurance assessor why your house burnt down... or worse...
Which fuses are you talking about, Jez - ones in plugs?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-03-2016, 18:43
Which fuses are you talking about, Jez - ones in plugs?
Marco.
Indeed. Or any fuse involved in safety. They are there to save your life... possibly...
Think they used to call the plug fuse the 3rd fuse, and to save the cable burning.
Frazeur1
30-03-2016, 18:55
Just bypass those fuses with Flux Capacitors, makes everything better!
Arkless Electronics
30-03-2016, 19:01
Just bypass those fuses with Flux Capacitors, makes everything better!
But are they directional? :D
anthonyTD
30-03-2016, 19:10
Ofcourse,:D
How else would they have got that useless car up to 88 mph! :lol:
But are they directional? :D
walpurgis
30-03-2016, 19:23
And don't forget to demagnetise them.
And don't forget to demagnetise them.
Demagging is well worth it ... i do it all the time:eek:
Cartridge fuses to BS1362 consist of a fine diameter tinned copper wire, 1" long, enclosed in a sandfilled ceramic tube. The diameter of the wire depends on the current rating of the fuse.
For a 3A rated fuse the diameter is 0.15mm. The calculated resistance and inductance are 0.025 Ohm and 1.27nH respectively. Thus at a mains frequency of 50Hz the impedance of the fuse is 0.025 +j4 .10-7 Ohm.
To put this into perspective, the typical source impedance for the UK mains supply is 0.25 + j0.23 Ohm, so the presence of a fuse in series with the mains supply is insignificant.
Beobloke
31-03-2016, 12:09
I hope nobody minds if I post a little reminder from 'The Notice Board' of this very forum, as I believe one or two posts in this thread have gone well past...
We strongly advise extreme caution when considering any modification or building projects described, especially those concerning any mains voltage related upgrades, earth modifications and/or any other high voltage related modifications or building projects.
Unless you are suitably qualified or otherwise capable of carrying out such modifications/suggestions, then we strongly advise you consult qualified personnel.
We would also like to remind all our members and readers that some or all of the modifications found within the threads and posts of the forum may not be legal in certain countries and therefore advice on the legalities or otherwise should be sought before carrying out such modifications.
Well said Adam - I was about to remind members of this caution. Hope you don't mind but I changed the font size and colour of the caution to emphasise the point.
I should also like to point out that it is irresponsible to recommend to members that they upgrade, modify or in any way tamper with the company fuse. This is for the following reasons:
[1] it is not your property; everything coming into your property including the company fuse and the meter, belongs to the electricity supply company.
[2] regardless whether the fuse is sealed or not, just because the fuse holder is rated at 100A, there may be good reasons why a lower rated fuse has been fitted. The fuse is there to protect everything down stream from the supply cable, and that includes the meter itself; many of the older eddy-current type meters are only rated at 60A, some only 40A.
[3] under current regulations, suitably qualified electricians are allowed to break the seal in order to carry out new installations. This work will be signed off by the contractor and a certificate issued. If an insurance claim is made and it is found the seal on the company fuse is missing and there is no certificate to show reasons for the broken seal, the insurance claim will be deemed null and void and legal proceedings could be taken by the electricity supplier.
Arkless Electronics
31-03-2016, 15:17
Indeed! I warned twice yesterday about tampering with mains fuses ;)
My main fuse was a shared one, although in my house.. It was a 60 amp for 2 properties so in modern day terminology a bit close to the bone... It was recently altered and the next door property now has a seperate supply and the fuse is now all mine thankfully... It did blow once and the supply company found a 40 amp in..it was changed to 60 as that was what should have been in. It is unswitched and not advisable to tinker with these...
It does show that 60 amps can supply 2 properties though.
Anthony and myself have both mentioned this b4
I bought my house off a sparky so naturally the electrics were for shit although I do have 9 plug sockets in the front bedroom.
Had a gadgee round to read the meter not long after I moved in and he went ballistic because there was a plug socket on the fuse board. 'This board is the company's property you are not allowed to put a plug socket on it'
'It was there when I moved in, mate'
'Well it's not allowed, you need to get someone in to remove it. I'll make a note and we'll come and check'
Yeah, okay pal, whatever'
That was 18 years ago and I've had loads of them out since including 5 gadgees just to change the meter, and none of them have ever mentioned it.
In principle the 'gagee' was correct, the board is company property. But he also sounded like a bit of a 'jobsworth'.
He was correct but why anyone would care is beyond me.
im laughing imagining the look on the doctors face when after getting electrocuted you explain that you read on a forum that polishing the main fuse makes your music sound better! :D
now im not saying it does or it doesn't,im not going any where near my fuse board but where do you draw the line?
on a certain other forum they are having a field day over this thread.
reality check needed please here i think.
My neighbour bought his house off a builder. He had put a porch on front...it leaks and is damp.. No proofing etc. Doesnt fit well and is generally worse than any amateur would do... Guy just wanted to make a buck. Brother bought an old farmhouse that had been converted by another builder...it was badly done in may ways too... Hard to find workers who are conscientious these days
im laughing imagining the look on the doctors face when after getting electrocuted you explain that you read on a forum that polishing the main fuse makes your music sound better! :D
You probably wont be talking....ever again;)
The main fuse thing in our house has got seals on, and is more dusty than Dusty Bin and Dusty Springfield put together. It's dated 1967, so was prolly installed by hippies.
You probably wont be talking....ever again;)
yep thats why im going no where near it mate.
yep thats why im going no where near it mate.
me neither. It aint my job. my fuse is in a sealed box anyways, so you cant just get at it. there is then another on the board which is sealed. then there is the individual area fuses. then fuses in plugs. then fuses in equipment :doh: surprised I get anything worth listening to :eyebrows: still the main cartridge fuses shouldnt be tampered with. I amp electrically trained and I wouldnt so would advise folk to steer very far away from them. fuses in equipment and in plugtops should be the size and type they are supposed to be, with no loose wires and trimmed to the right size.
believe me if anything nasty happens the firebrigade and insurance company will go through it with a fine tooth comb if there is any possibility of an electrical appliance having caused a fire etc.... and that is not accounting for your, and your family and neighbours lives, and those of the fire brigade.
anthonyTD
31-03-2016, 17:08
Absolutely agree.:)
Well said Adam - I was about to remind members of this caution. Hope you don't mind but I changed the font size and colour of the caution to emphasise the point.
I should also like to point out that it is irresponsible to recommend to members that they upgrade, modify or in any way tamper with the company fuse. This is for the following reasons:
[1] it is not your property; everything coming into your property including the company fuse and the meter, belongs to the electricity supply company.
[2] regardless whether the fuse is sealed or not, just because the fuse holder is rated at 100A, there may be good reasons why a lower rated fuse has been fitted. The fuse is there to protect everything down stream from the supply cable, and that includes the meter itself; many of the older eddy-current type meters are only rated at 60A, some only 40A.
[3] under current regulations, suitably qualified electricians are allowed to break the seal in order to carry out new installations. This work will be signed off by the contractor and a certificate issued. If an insurance claim is made and it is found the seal on the company fuse is missing and there is no certificate to show reasons for the broken seal, the insurance claim will be deemed null and void and legal proceedings could be taken by the electricity supplier.
twickers
31-03-2016, 20:20
Indeed! I warned twice yesterday about tampering with mains fuses ;)
The trouble is the lunatics run this asylum :). The forum owner not knowing the AUP doesn't help.:doh:
The trouble is the lunatics run this asylum :). The forum owner not knowing the AUP doesn't help.:doh:
Whats an Afghanistan uniformed policewoman got to do with it? ;) and there are no lunatics running this forum. There may be elsewhere though.
Floyddroid
31-03-2016, 21:28
Ssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Thats where the dipolar fuse comes in handy as is alleviates those bipolar moments
Given all the hifi gear owned now and in the past by members here I wonder how many blown fuses there have been from unmodified hardware. Next to bugger all I expect. If I had my time again I would use schuko plugs and one main fuse in the plug to the wall. That's all.
Some items need to use a fused plug: most belt and idler drive TTs for example.
I don't think that is possible here.
I don't think that is possible here.
What isn't possible? Fused plugs, or belt drive turntables?
Fused plugs. Don't think I have ever seen one for sale.
guess you could put one in line and would do the same thing
Audio Advent
02-04-2016, 01:05
So indeed no "special properties", just simple physics :)
??????? Marco, you so often argue against science and that science doesn't know everything etc etc etc and now you say that fuses having a real effect is simple physics. Hmm..
I am all ears (love physics!) so can you please explain in full the physics behind the alleged phenomenon? If proper scientific links explaining what you need will help that would be great.
Audio Advent
02-04-2016, 01:07
The equipment (a CD player) connected with the mains lead,
Genuine curiosity - could you say what the CD player was?
Audio Advent
02-04-2016, 01:09
...but not so open that your brains fall out. :nono:
:lol:
Audio Advent
02-04-2016, 01:20
Impedance is resistance, isn't it?
If you're talking mains at a constant 50Hz then they are effectively the same here anyway - impedance means the resistance changes with frequency of the AC signal, which is constant here (therefore so is the resistance).
Audio Advent
02-04-2016, 01:32
Given all the hifi gear owned now and in the past by members here I wonder how many blown fuses there have been from unmodified hardware. Next to bugger all I expect. If I had my time again I would use schuko plugs and one main fuse in the plug to the wall. That's all.
Always been fuses within the gear that have ever needed changing in my experience (and meant that I have bought them as broken on ebay when a new internal fuse was all that was wrong..).
Arkless Electronics
02-04-2016, 02:25
"How many fuses have you known blown"? How many times has your house burnt down? How many times is too many?
"How many fuses have you known blown"? How many times has your house burnt down? How many times is too many?
A fully paid up member of the 'elf 'n safely thought police?. I respect your point of view but on this issue I'd take my chances given I'd be in the house when said equipment is live.
I believe our esteemed leader uses schuko plugs or hard wires to the mains?
Firebottle
02-04-2016, 06:58
I believe our esteemed leader uses schuko plugs or hard wires to the mains?
Yes but there is still one protection fuse in line, he's not that daft (Head Daftee maybe :eyebrows:)
Some points -
1) this is the internet and anyone can read it and decide to go mucking about with their mains board/fuses/wiring/CU etc and kill themselves or burn the place down. You wouldn't, I wouldn't, but people still fall for those Nigerian scams, so never say never.
2) At the same time there are some who go over the top and start throwing rocks whenever these topics are brought up, almost as though someone had said 'Jehova' (Ooh, he just said it again!)
3) I've heard, and I'm sure we all have, some really awesome systems that were just plugged into the wall with normal cables, fuses, plugs etc so this sort of thing is not in any way necessary to get music to sound good.
4) And if your system isn't sounding good this is not going to be the cure
5) maybe, just maybe, if you've maxed out absolutely everything else then you could consider such tweaks.
6|) But for God's sake don't mention it on the internet
Isn't God just another word for Jehovah? (He said it again). ;)
All very good points raised, but surely any properly designed power supply should be able to be used on normal mains with normal cables?
I might add that as far as i know when Marco cleaned his fuse the power was off as his mains was being renovated or such by an official engineer. Thats why it was ok for him to have done it. BUT ITS NOT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD DO OFF YOUR OWN BAT!.
I might add that as far as i know when Marco cleaned his fuse the power was off as his mains was being renovated or such by an official engineer.
Well, that's not how Marco tells it:
'My main fuse, for example, was housed inside a black bakelite casing, with '100A' written on the outside (most likely fitted in the 60s), and could simply be pulled out, which I duly did, and found an 80A one inside! I then went to my local City Electrical Factors and bought a new 100A fuse, for about £10, polished the end caps on it to a deep shine, including the brass contact pins on the fuse holder itself, and banged it back in - and bloody hell, the improvement in the sound of my system afterwards was rather profound to say the least!'
Some points -
1) this is the internet and anyone can read it and decide to go mucking about with their mains board/fuses/wiring/CU etc and kill themselves or burn the place down. You wouldn't, I wouldn't, but people still fall for those Nigerian scams, so never say never.
I know my own depth of ignorance re electricity and physics. Fortunately, I'm too lazy to go in for this sort of tweakery, and my main fuse is sealed with tags that would indicate if I'd been 'tampering'. So I'm doubly protected from such daft ideas.
I. Fortunately, I'm too lazy to go in for this sort of tweakery, .
It's one of those impossible to prove negatives though isn't it? Even so, I'm pretty sure that my sheer bone-idleness has saved me from many misadventures over the years.
It's one of those impossible to prove negatives though isn't it? Even so, I'm pretty sure that my sheer bone-idleness has saved me from many misadventures over the years.
Really you'd need a dirty non-polished fuse to do an A/B comparison with the polished version, with someone else switching between the two so you wouldn't know which you were listening to, but who can be arsed with that?
'Even my wife, who doesn't normally notice these things, said 'Why the fuck does the leccy keep going on and off?!"'
'Even my wife, who doesn't normally notice these things, packed her bags and left.'
Wives are touchy about such things... Where,s the leccy? When are you going to get the leccy? Why haven,t you got the leccy yet? Are you still here?;)
I might add that as far as i know when Marco cleaned his fuse the power was off as his mains was being renovated or such by an official engineer. Thats why it was ok for him to have done it. BUT ITS NOT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD DO OFF YOUR OWN BAT!.
Yes indeed, on ALL counts! :exactly:
It was during when a qualified electrician was installing my dedicated mains spur, and was therefore carried out with his blessing. The 80 > 100A main fuse upgrade was approved by him, due to the cabling in my property being of a sufficient rating to handle the higher current demand of power showers and other high current-drain appliances that had been recently fitted, so the fuse upgrade accommodated that. It should also be noted that the main fuse was never at any point sealed.
Of course, from experience, in terms of my hi-fi system, I also knew that the higher amperage rating fuse would reduce impedance on the supply, which is always a good thing, in terms of sonics. The polishing was done while the power was off , and while the electrician was installing the cabling and sockets, which gave me ample time to polish the end-caps and brass pins on the fuse and fuse holder to a veritably jewel-like shine. Indeed, I remember the sparky commenting that he'd never seen any so shiny!! :eyebrows:
However, just to make it crystal clear: [I]I am certainly NOT endorsing tampering with a sealed mains fuse, and therefore, the property of the electricity board, without the approval of a qualified electrician! :nono:
Marco.
Well, that's not how Marco tells it:
'My main fuse, for example, was housed inside a black bakelite casing, with '100A' written on the outside (most likely fitted in the 60s), and could simply be pulled out, which I duly did, and found an 80A one inside! I then went to my local City Electrical Factors and bought a new 100A fuse, for about £10, polished the end caps on it to a deep shine, including the brass contact pins on the fuse holder itself, and banged it back in - and bloody hell, the improvement in the sound of my system afterwards was rather profound to say the least!'
Yes, the discovery of the 80A fuse was made during a preliminary investigation of the (then) mains installation, when the electrician was there. I asked him, since the fuse wasn't sealed, if it could simply be pulled out, which he confirmed. It was also him who told me where to obtain the 100A one (CEF) - indeed he took me to the local depot, and we bought it on his trade account, along with other bits and pieces we needed for the job in hand.
It was "banged back in" once the job had been completed, in the final stage of testing the new mains installation. It should also be noted that the sparky in question is a friend of mine and a fellow 'hi-fi nut'. He did everything he could to lower impedance on the supply (before & after measurements, in that respect, were also taken), in order to optimise the performance of my system. Forgive me for not explaining things properly earlier :)
Marco.
Out of interest Marco, what were the before and after measurements of the source impedance?
I've got that written down at home, Barry, as I kept the info for reference. I'll post the details when I'm back (suffice to say though that the reduction was significant, and the subsequent sonic gains easily heard!) :cool:
Marco.
??????? Marco, you so often argue against science and that science doesn't know everything etc etc etc and now you say that fuses having a real effect is simple physics. Hmm..
I am all ears (love physics!) so can you please explain in full the physics behind the alleged phenomenon? If proper scientific links explaining what you need will help that would be great.
Sam, if you read the bit before you quoted, the electrical explanation (and therefore the physics one) is provided. See here:
I put that down to the reduced impedance and/or resistance offered by the materials used in the 'audiophile fuse', which I'm sure could be measured.
The silver filament and end caps, employed by the 'audiophile fuse', provide superior conductivity, thus reducing resistance, which would almost certainly be measurable.
Marco.
The trouble is the lunatics run this asylum :). The forum owner not knowing the AUP doesn't help.:doh:
There is no AUP. There is an ethos, none of which discusses matters such as this. In any case, if you read my recent pots, all is explained.
Marco.
When I bought my current house the previous owner had been very keen on cycling and had converted one of the bedrooms into his 'cycling den' including a completely self contained shower cubicle with electric shower unit. He had also had the main supply fuse uprated. All I had to do was bin the remarkably ugly shower unit (never seen anything quite like it before) and my electrician reappropriated the electrical feed to it - how convenient :).
When I bought my current house the previous owner had been very keen on cycling and had converted one of the bedrooms into his 'cycling den' including a completely self contained shower cubicle with electric shower unit. He had also had the main supply fuse uprated. All I had to do was bin the remarkably ugly shower unit (never seen anything quite like it before) and my electrician reappropriated the electrical feed to it - how convenient :).
Nice one, Mark. In reference to the emboldened text, it's worth stressing that said fuse up-rating can be requested by anyone to their electricity supplier, and I've not known of a case yet (amongst those I've spoken to who've done it) where that request has been denied.
Of course, as the main fuse is the property of the electricity board, it's their job to replace it, not you. I only did it on the say so of a qualified electrician, who's authorised to carry out that job on behalf of the electricity board, thus making the installation legal and above board.
Incidentally, as I said, the electrician is a long-term friend of mine, whom I met when Del used to work for Wrexham council, where he is employed as a supervisor. He's top notch and really knows his stuff. It's the same chap I took down to Steve Toy's place, to sort out his mains set-up, as detailed in this old thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?5337-My-mains-has-been-Marco-d!&highlight=I%27ve+mains+marco%27d The fact is, I've been doing this stuff for years!!
Note the measured reduction in impedance 'before & after' [See post #40]... ;)
Marco.
Pieoftheday
03-04-2016, 10:13
Blimey,I hadn't even considered the main supply fuse when first asked about fuses:eek: BTW, I did spend my 20 pound on Jameson's and my system improved no end:)
mad-moon
23-04-2016, 08:24
for the people who know ;)
these fuses are from Germany...they are every bit as good as AMR fuses for a fraction of the price..gold plated ceramic body..just they haven't got AMR stamped on them
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180896189140?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
check out his other items..he has different value fuses too...
incidentally..I have nothing to do with the seller other than..I have bought fuses from him and put them in my MF A3 integrated..and what a difference...
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2016, 09:24
Has anyone looked into how oxidation affects the physical and electrical properties of fuses? I wonder if one type of oxidation has a more radical affect than another and additionally I wonder if by cleaning the fuses that it's the removal of the oxidation that gives a perceived performance?? Just a few thoughts whilst pondering the subject. :scratch:
mad-moon
23-04-2016, 19:15
Yes I agree..my fuses and the holders were cleaned with bluehorizon contact cleaning fluid before I put them in...also a ceramic body plays its part over the standard glass fuse
were cleaned with
Has anyone looked into how oxidation affects the physical and electrical properties of fuses? I wonder if one type of oxidation has a more radical affect than another and additionally I wonder if by cleaning the fuses that it's the removal of the oxidation that gives a perceived performance?? Just a few thoughts whilst pondering the subject. :scratch:
Have to say folks, I tried a Synergistic Research Black fuse just this last week. After reading the reviews, and speaking to my dealer (who is also a longtime friend) I had to try one. He has customers with systems that cost over $500,000 CDN, and they put in the SR Black fuse in amp or preamp and comment it is a better upgrade for them than a set of Nordost Odin interconnects.
I have had this in my system one week now. I put it in place of a standard $5 fuse into my Air Tight ATM1-S tube amp.
The results are astounding. Yes, it is a better upgrade for me than accessories I have installed that cost up to $5K. I am absolutely shocked. I went in expecting nothing. After all, just a fuse right and how can it make a difference?
The biggest change is how "big" the entire system sounds, with crazy bass output/drive from my smallish Proac Response D Two speakers. Vocals have gone from thin to rock solid "you are there" realism.
Every aspect has SIGNIFICANTLY improved with zero downside. Details, details, details... I am hearing so much that I never knew existed in my favorite tunes. Soundstage size and depth both received a big increase in scale.
It is very expensive at $175 CDN, but it has made a bigger difference than going from a basic cheapo power conditioner to a $5K Audience conditioner.
I have no idea why it works, but I would sooner give up my $2K interconnects than this $175 fuse.
Not to say the interconnects and such do not make a difference. They do and it is good, but the fuse is a different matter and for me the most surprising upgrade I have ever made.
I do not think the fuse will make a $500 amp and with a set of $500 speakers turn into a giant killer, but if you think your system is already fine tuned enough for you, be prepared to be very surprised.
Well Paul, you've definitely tweaked my interest. I am quickly reaching the point that Ive not much else to try, perhaps I'll take a stab at it? But which would be the most important to try first? The amp? Or Preamp?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hi Russell. I don't know actually. I went with my amp over my preamp on a hunch. I did not ask my dealer which he thought would be best, I just assumed the amp might benefit more but I could be wrong.
The sound continues to improve. Synergistic Research quote 200 hours of burn in time, and I don't doubt it. The sound is changing daily. I am letting my system play even when not in the room listening to speed that along. I have maybe 100 hours of play time on the fuse, but only about 20 hours of listening so a couple hours per day.
I am getting more pleased by the day. The sound is so freaking natural and relaxed now, drifting further from a digital artificial sound to what I would classify as more analog, in the sense of turntable reproduction vs CD.
I asked my dealer if I could put a replacement fuse in my Linn Akurate Kontrol preamp, and he said yes but I am going to wait until full burn in is complete. It sounds so darn good now, that I am not tempted to alter the "recipe"...
Paul
:thumbsup:
Exactly my findings too, have them throughout my system.
To me, given that what eventually becomes your musical signal goes through the fuse, I see it as a fundamental part of the power supply.
95 Page thread on SR Fuses here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
And...as discussed before here on AOS:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48809-Wasn-t-gonna-post-this
Have to say folks, I tried a Synergistic Research Black fuse just this last week. After reading the reviews, and speaking to my dealer (who is also a longtime friend) I had to try one. He has customers with systems that cost over $500,000 CDN, and they put in the SR Black fuse in amp or preamp and comment it is a better upgrade for them than a set of Nordost Odin interconnects.
I have had this in my system one week now. I put it in place of a standard $5 fuse into my Air Tight ATM1-S tube amp.
The results are astounding. Yes, it is a better upgrade for me than accessories I have installed that cost up to $5K. I am absolutely shocked. I went in expecting nothing. After all, just a fuse right and how can it make a difference?
The biggest change is how "big" the entire system sounds, with crazy bass output/drive from my smallish Proac Response D Two speakers. Vocals have gone from thin to rock solid "you are there" realism.
Every aspect has SIGNIFICANTLY improved with zero downside. Details, details, details... I am hearing so much that I never knew existed in my favorite tunes. Soundstage size and depth both received a big increase in scale.
It is very expensive at $175 CDN, but it has made a bigger difference than going from a basic cheapo power conditioner to a $5K Audience conditioner.
I have no idea why it works, but I would sooner give up my $2K interconnects than this $175 fuse.
Not to say the interconnects and such do not make a difference. They do and it is good, but the fuse is a different matter and for me the most surprising upgrade I have ever made.
I do not think the fuse will make a $500 amp and with a set of $500 speakers turn into a giant killer, but if you think your system is already fine tuned enough for you, be prepared to be very surprised.
I would need seven just to play a record and four if only the amplification were considered! I'll pass I think.
:thumbsup:
Exactly my findings too, have them throughout my system.
To me, given that what eventually becomes your musical signal goes through the fuse, I see it as a fundamental part of the power supply.
95 Page thread on SR Fuses here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
And...as discussed before here on AOS:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48809-Wasn-t-gonna-post-this
I would need seven just to play a record and four if only the amplification were considered! I'll pass I think.
Hey Mark,
Its ok your system wouldn't suddenly sound shit without them! :)
As with everything its a choice.
Happy knowing I'm made the most if the kit I have and can forget about it.
Thats worth the price of admission for me.
Just enjoying the choons nowadays.
Indeed, it does not, to me at least ;).
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