View Full Version : Any TT building experience?
I am considering rebuilding my Rega Planar 3 with grace 707 tonearm It is all in very good condition. I am an industrial Designer and work in the area of designing and producing 3D models and rendering so I can model it and change material/details etc, with the click of a mouse button . I want to scavenge the TT parts and do a drawing of the TT plinth to get it 3d CNC'd in a material with a high density low resonance whatever that will turn out to be. I have the advantage of being able to see exactly how it will look when it Finished. And basically want to make t look super sexy and improve on details including resonance control etc,. Would love to draw on experience here and maybe post images of my renders for comment. So if you guys want to help me on my way that would be great:)
Sexy is what sexy does;).
Good luck, and i will be very interested... No experience of 3d and not sure exactly how it actually works but it must be fascinating.
I have a broad experience designing turntables and have a similar background to yourself.
A high density well damped material as you describe is Corian although that is a trade name and similar products are available from other manufacturers. These materials are easy to CNC rout and mill.
Personally, for chassis use, I favour the light stiff and critically damped path which is not unlike that taken by Rega in their more expensive designs.
rikardo1979
28-03-2016, 10:25
would be interesting to see some pics and WIP updates ;)
All I did lately was a design of custom made acrylic cover for my Clearaudio Concept TT :)
http://snag.gy/sMSSJ.jpghttp://snag.gy/cedHd.jpghttp://snag.gy/QsJol.jpg
looking forward to see your project
Hi Mark great to hear from you! I am very experienced with Corian or generically "Solid Surface" was thinking also of Solis aluminium. But I am thinking of solid wood I think because it sort of says " organic" and "instrument" like. That is subject to change though.
I am really interested in: "Personally, for chassis use, I favour the light stiff and critically damped path which is not unlike that taken by Rega in their more expensive designs"
Actually very much interested if you could expand;):)
would be interesting to see some pics and WIP updates ;)
All I did lately was a design of custom made acrylic cover for my Clearaudio Concept TT :)
http://snag.gy/sMSSJ.jpghttp://snag.gy/cedHd.jpghttp://snag.gy/QsJol.jpg
looking forward to see your project
what ever happened to the scale rule and pencil ?:D
For my last two decks the chassis (both have a form of suspended chassis) is made from a laminate of carbon fibre over a Nomex cell. Two layers are bonded together with a flexible glue to create a constrained layer construction. Unfortunately I had to have the material custom manufactured for me for the most recent design as what I wanted wasn't available off the shelf.
Personally I'm not very keen on the use of solid timber for use in turntables. I'm not familiar with Solis aluminium - could you give some details (unless it's a typo and you mean solid aluminium)?
why is that if i may ask?
what ever happened to the scale rule and pencil ?:D
Nothing at all Jamie, the lunar and lander and Concorde were designed by grey haired men in white coats with pencils behind there ears. But the digital 3D medium is just so much better in every possible way.
For my last two decks the chassis (both have a form of suspended chassis) is made from a laminate of carbon fibre over a Nomex cell. Two layers are bonded together with a flexible glue to create a constrained layer construction. Unfortunately I had to have the material custom manufactured for me for the most recent design as what I wanted wasn't available off the shelf.
Personally I'm not very keen on the use of solid timber for use in turntables. I'm not familiar with Solis aluminium - could you give some details (unless it's a typo and you mean solid aluminium)?
What? you have NOT heard of Solis aluminium! It is Aircraft grade Aluminium modified by heating and then cooled in a very controlled manner to modify the molecular bond into a laminar matrix structure as opposed to ................OK your correct.....Typo:doh::)
Do you have access to Solidworks Steph? If you have the correct extension you can do finite element analysis.
Not a lot of knowledge personally but, my brother in law built my table. He is a machinist and constructed the table using brass and aluminium. The main pedestal is solid brass. The platter is two inch Teflon. The bearing: he purchased a Clearaudio replacement bearing (may have been a VPI), and copied it. The bearing is a inverted ball and thrust plate. The motor is AC. This table is very heavy therefore isolates and controls resonances with its mass. Do to the flexibility of the arm board changing arms and alignments is easy!
Hope this helps a bit and your DIY table turns out successful.
why is that if i may ask?
Sorry Jamie, are you asking me? If so, then why is what exactly?
i was asking why you like using wood :)
i was asking why you like using wood :)
But I wrote that I don't like using wood for this purpose:
Personally I'm not very keen on the use of solid timber for use in turntables.
Have you been on the Easter sherry :) ?
Rothchild
28-03-2016, 18:02
Not a lot of knowledge personally but, my brother in law built my table. He is a machinist and constructed the table using brass and aluminium. The main pedestal is solid brass. The platter is two inch Teflon. The bearing: he purchased a Clearaudio replacement bearing (may have been a VPI), and copied it. The bearing is a inverted ball and thrust plate. The motor is AC. This table is very heavy therefore isolates and controls resonances with its mass. Do to the flexibility of the arm board changing arms and alignments is easy!
Hope this helps a bit and your DIY table turns out successful.
What the dickens is going on with the lamp in that first shot?
Looks like a lovely turntable mind, congrats.
But I wrote that I don't like using wood for this purpose:
Have you been on the Easter sherry :) ?
sorry typo, ok so its clear WHY DONT YOU LIKE USING WOOD? :)
It's not so much that I don't like using wood, just not solid timber in turntables. Even then it partly depends on the wood. The problem with solid timber, as opposed to man made boards like MDF or ply, is that they vary in quality from one batch to another and even within the same piece, they are not as stable as other materials and they have a defined grain structure. All of this is less true of the very hard exotics like ebony but they are not available in sufficient size to make much more than an armboard out of (I've used ebony for turntable bits in the past) - however, the very fine particulate grain of these woods means they are more akin to materials like Delrin (or even Tufnol) than they are to most other woods.
I think that there is a common misconception that items that reproduce music should themselves emulate the construction of musical instruments (turntables, cartridges, arms and speakers). The reality is that the musicians play the instruments - the playback system isn't another musical instrument, it is a measuring and reproduction instrument - it should replay that which it is given and not add random extra levels of distortion. Musical instruments are designed to colour the sound in specific ways, the musician works with this to create the sound they want - there isn't supposed to be another set of distortions overlaid on top of that by the reproduction components.
walpurgis
28-03-2016, 19:10
Perhaps that very randomness in the grain and density of some woods could be an advantage in a fairly massy structure like a hefty TT plinth?
Personally I would rather rely on good design than trust in something that may, or may not, exist; but then I'm not a believer in mass as an isolator or 'hefty' plinths as such.
walpurgis
28-03-2016, 23:08
I'm not a believer in mass as an isolator or 'hefty' plinths as such.
Nor me, necessarily. It has its place, as do other approaches.
Hi guys and thank you for your input it is very welcome. I be off to work now. So will be offline. Please keep the ideas and info coming.
Thanks:)
Do you have access to Solidworks Steph? If you have the correct extension you can do finite element analysis.
Hi Mark, I do not have access to Solid works, sadly. That would be the answer tough. Very interesting thought, thank you.:)
Steph,
What design software do you use?
No doubt you could export your model in various formats and maybe someone could help out with the FEA calcs if need be?
Inventor and Pro-E guy here, but dont have the facility to do FEA.
I should perhaps add that my opinion is FEA is no magic bullet and many of the results it gives can be predicted using experience and applied knowledge. In addition, like any investigative tool, it is only as good as the quality of the input and the subsequent interpretation of the results.
Steph,
What design software do you use?
No doubt you could export your model in various formats and maybe someone could help out with the FEA calcs if need be?
Inventor and Pro-E guy here, but dont have the facility to do FEA.
Hi Gaz, Ok dont laugh OK? I use Sketchup I use it professionally for product/landscape and Architectural for about 8 hours a day. I always feel I must justify using this medium but its actually very powerful ( I used to use 3DS Max) You have me thinking though there is a plugin called "sketchy Physics" that may do the trick. And yes i could transfer that to just about any format.:)
It's not so much that I don't like using wood, just not solid timber in turntables. Even then it partly depends on the wood. The problem with solid timber, as opposed to man made boards like MDF or ply, is that they vary in quality from one batch to another and even within the same piece, they are not as stable as other materials and they have a defined grain structure. All of this is less true of the very hard exotics like ebony but they are not available in sufficient size to make much more than an armboard out of (I've used ebony for turntable bits in the past) - however, the very fine particulate grain of these woods means they are more akin to materials like Delrin (or even Tufnol) than they are to most other woods.
I think that there is a common misconception that items that reproduce music should themselves emulate the construction of musical instruments (turntables, cartridges, arms and speakers). The reality is that the musicians play the instruments - the playback system isn't another musical instrument, it is a measuring and reproduction instrument - it should replay that which it is given and not add random extra levels of distortion. Musical instruments are designed to colour the sound in specific ways, the musician works with this to create the sound they want - there isn't supposed to be another set of distortions overlaid on top of that by the reproduction components.
thanks,
i made an ebony arm board for my AR turntable before i went to the lp12,it made a big difference over the standard one,i also tried lacewood, acrylic and an mdf aluminium sandwich.the ebony one sounded the best,i may make one for the lp12 ,if i still had my wood working machines id make a matching plinth too.
Did you try aluminium on its own, without the MDF element? The armboard I currently use in an aluminium/aluminium sandwich with a viscoelastic compound joining them. Before that I used a very similar design but made from carbon fibre and before that a carbon fibre component similar to that used in the chassis.
no i never did,the aluminium sandwich one sounded awful so i never persevered .
I have found that laminating materials can give very different results depending on the precise specification of the materials and implementation.
Hi Gaz, Ok dont laugh OK? I use Sketchup I use it professionally for product/landscape and Architectural for about 8 hours a day. I always feel I must justify using this medium but its actually very powerful ( I used to use 3DS Max) You have me thinking though there is a plugin called "sketchy Physics" that may do the trick. And yes i could transfer that to just about any format.:)
Sketchups awesome for architectural stuff, love it.
The Push/Pull tool is very powerful.
Audio Advent
29-03-2016, 22:30
Did you try aluminium on its own, without the MDF element? The armboard I currently use in an aluminium/aluminium sandwich with a viscoelastic compound joining them. Before that I used a very similar design but made from carbon fibre and before that a carbon fibre component similar to that used in the chassis.
Is that the same or similar to the common display or cladding/surface material one can buy off the shelf? Has a black plasticy material between the two sheets, sometimes has pictures printed on it for mounting (as it's stiff enough and light for exhibition stands etc).. know what I mean?
Oh, I know the stuff you mean but no that's not what I meant. I fabricated the armboard I'm talking about, basically it is two 3mm shaped aluminium plates glued together but with a flexible glue rather than a rigid one (like epoxy for example). It's a bit more elaborate than that as the armboard is constructed in such a way that the arm only connects directly to the top plate and the chassis the bottom plate.
I was wondering about the aluminium honeycomb stuff. I have worked with it back in the day. I am thinking of that material would be ideal material for plinth construction as far as resonance control goes. Any ideas, anyone?
16580
I would say it is a good choice - similar was used by Pink Triangle for their TT chassis many years ago. These days the Funk Firm (the modern reincarnation of PT) use a carbon fibre balsa laminate that can be bought on line. The problem with the aluminium honeycomb is how to edge it or incorporate it neatly - I have the same issue with the carbon fibre Nomex laminate I use.
I would say it is a good choice - similar was used by Pink Triangle for their TT chassis many years ago. These days the Funk Firm (the modern reincarnation of PT) use a carbon fibre balsa laminate that can be bought on line. The problem with the aluminium honeycomb is how to edge it or incorporate it neatly - I have the same issue with the carbon fibre Nomex laminate I use.
Hi Mark I have worked with it before a very little bit, in light weight, hi end yacht furniture. You simply use two part car filler ( the good stuff) and re machine with a bit of hand finishing.
I have also done the same :).
I have also done the same :).
You did not get good results?
Yes, I did, but it's a pain to do. Also, I'm not keen on the increased mass or the way it bridges the outer skins. In my most recent design the materials is rebated into the main plinth with only a very small gap so the edge of the laminate cannot be seen.
Audio Advent
30-03-2016, 14:26
Hi Mark I have worked with it before a very little bit, in light weight, hi end yacht furniture. You simply use two part car filler ( the good stuff) and re machine with a bit of hand finishing.
Now that sounds interesting! Lightweight furniture made from ali honeycomb. Did you move to shaped pieces, so perhaps using carbon fibre, or just straight sheets?
I've some long sheets of ali honeycomb I was wanting to make a long hifi stand out of (more like a sideboard in a sense) - picked up free from a local architect's who had used it for displaying some kind of tiled wall. Edging was an issue I hadn't solved yet (err, nor the rest of it).
Now that sounds interesting! Lightweight furniture made from ali honeycomb. Did you move to shaped pieces, so perhaps using carbon fibre, or just straight sheets?
I've some long sheets of ali honeycomb I was wanting to make a long hifi stand out of (more like a sideboard in a sense) - picked up free from a local architect's who had used it for displaying some kind of tiled wall. Edging was an issue I hadn't solved yet (err, nor the rest of it).
Hi Mark, the best method was panel beating bog. We only used it on straight and used conventional methods for curves. I have attached something that may explain:) Look at he "epoxy edge fill"
http://kerrpanelmfg.com/honeycomb-panel-edging-finishing/
Yes, I did, but it's a pain to do. Also, I'm not keen on the increased mass or the way it bridges the outer skins. In my most recent design the materials is rebated into the main plinth with only a very small gap so the edge of the laminate cannot be seen.
HI, I have been thinking and if the epoxy filled edge was used to say a depth of max 6mm you could then machine a "Grove" to a depth of 8mm. That would be an acceptable aesthetic detail and would de-couple any resonance between the two surface. I have attached an image. If you click on the thumbnail you may see the black line where i mean the grove to go.
HI, I have been thinking and if the epoxy filled edge was used to say a depth of max 6mm you could then machine a "Grove" to a depth of 8mm. That would be an acceptable aesthetic detail and would de-couple any resonance between the two surface. I have attached an image. If you click on the thumbnail you may see the black line where i mean the grove to go.
Or perhaps like this (in image) It shows a section where the cross hatching is the honeycomb and the other hatching is the other material.16585
I think this may have it all:)
http://audioqualia.prophpbb.com/topic21.html
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