View Full Version : Having a vinyl existentialist crisis
Recently been buying some albums on CD that I already have on vinyl. It's become a worry.
I'm starting to think I should really sell my vinyl now while interest is high - maybe just keep a hard core of 30 or 40 or so. My Hendrix and Led Zep, and a few albums bought when I was young and some bought for me as birthday presents by fondly recalled ex's. Sell all my decks bar one, Probably keep and use the Systemdek IIX. Keep the RCM, too.
I'm really preferring the CDs and I'm thinking that I'm not going to spend the kind of money on my vinyl system that would bring it up to the level I'd be happy at, whereas I'm happy with the digital side.
The pick of my vinyl I'll offer here first; what doesn't go can go in a job lot to the local s/h record shop and what they don't want can go to the charity shop. I lot of it I'll never play again anyway so what's the point?
Not sure if I want to be talked into this or talked out of it.
Trust your gut Martin, maybe it's time...
Obviously the 'spark' I injected into your T/T, last time I was down (and where it was sounding excellent), has worn off! ;)
Marco.
No, you really did race-tune it - you got it very close to the CD player. But that is really the problem. If I'm going to have vinyl that sounds almost like the CD I might as well just have the CD.
I know plenty here have vinyl because they prefer it but I really only have it now for the sentimental and romantic reasons. And now it is popular again that means it isn't as cool. Vinyl is in Sainsbury's now.
They're selling hippy wigs in Woolworth's too. It's over, man ;)
Lol.... :eyebrows:
Thing is, I see the benchmark of any good turntable as replicating the performance achieved by *good* digital, which is precisely what the Techy does well, when properly fettled. In that respect, vinyl is doing precisely what it should do :)
Anyway, I get it. Just make sure that you think very carefully before doing anything rash or irreversible!
Marco.
I'd wait a couple of years. Your still just a boy :eyebrows: I kinda dropped vinyl or a time in early 40's and fortunately I kept most of the vinyl, coz I got the bug again. If you dont need the cash, then just keep it if you have the room.
also I dont think vinyl should sound like digital; it should sound like vinyl;)
He defo doesn't need the cash ;)
Marco.
I have thought long and hard and I am still at a quandary hence this thread.
I'd take Grant's advice. Turntables are more easily replaced than music collections...
Marco.
Audio Advent
26-03-2016, 21:55
Sit on it for a while (not literally) and see if you really stop playing the vinyl. At that point you can make a more fully formed decision.
One thing is that you may get the money for the vinyl but you'll at least spend so much time finding it again, if not more money too ... entropy and all that. So there will have to be some very good reasons for getting rid - a real freedom from fettling and fretting about the sound of the vinyl front end for example.
Might see what I have that is desirable but that I'm not that interested in keeping. Might not actually be enough to bother with. But a record I never play, someone else might really want it and play it. That's better on a Karmic level, surely?
I'm not a collector of anything just for the sake of it. No problem with anyone who is: a man should have a hobby.
I'll have a root through and see how it goes.
walpurgis
26-03-2016, 22:07
Perhaps moving to a nice MC & SUT could buck things up for you Martin?
Perhaps moving to a nice MC & SUT could buck things up for you Martin?
Don't believe what Marco says about my financial status! Although I have got a low hours Eroica LO MC lying about I've not tried I think that even as it is the Nag MP50 I have fitted now is too good for the arm. But as Sam says: all that fretting and fettling - I'm not willing to go there.
awkwardbydesign
26-03-2016, 22:18
Anyway, I get it. Just make sure that you think very carefully before doing anything rash or irreversible!
Marco.
Huh, you youngsters, so fickle! We sold all our records nearly 30 years ago, and spent the next 20 trying to replace them.
Wait till you have everything ripped to a hard drive and wonder why you still keep the CDs!
Wait till you can stream everything and wonder why you keep the hard drives...
Wait till you can stream everything and wonder why you keep the hard drives...
Until you move your streaming contract and you lose your libray and playlists. We need a standard for playlists so we can transfer. Until then we're over a barrel
awkwardbydesign
26-03-2016, 22:27
Ah, but I have more Suns of Arqa albums than Tidal! Which may or may not be a good thing.
Huh, you youngsters, so fickle! We sold all our records nearly 30 years ago, and spent the next 20 trying to replace them.
Wait till you have everything ripped to a hard drive and wonder why you still keep the CDs!
Lol... It would take me way too long to rip all my CDs to hard-drives, and life's too short! That's why it's nice to have access both to streaming and CD - oh, and vinyl, too... ;)
Marco.
Until you move your streaming contract and you lose your libray and playlists. We need a standard for playlists so we can transfer. Until then we're over a barrel
No need to have a contract with anyone, when you have 8TB worth of music stored on hard-drives... Realistically, I have all the music I'll ever need, and that's not including 3000 albums on vinyl, and about 2000 CDs. I'd always like to retain control of my music collection, rather than it simply existing in some form of 'Internet cloud'! ;)
Marco.
No need to have a contract with anyone, when you have 8TB worth of music stored on hard-drives... Realistically, I have all the music I'll ever need, and that's not including 3000 albums on vinyl, and about 2000 CDs. I'd always like to retain control of my music collection, rather than it simply existing in some form of 'Internet cloud'! ;)
Marco.
Yeah that's my point....the lack of control - the streaming companies have their customers by the short and curlies.
Indeed, Clive. Hence why I wouldn't entertain it. It's a mugs game.
Marco.
walpurgis
26-03-2016, 23:27
I have got a low hours Eroica LO MC lying about I've not tried
The Eroica is a very musical MC. I have one. I like it!
walpurgis
26-03-2016, 23:30
Wait till you can stream everything and wonder why you keep the hard drives...
Being able to stream 'everything' will not happen. There's stuff from the seventies/eighties I can't even find any more on CD or vinyl.
Being able to stream 'everything' will not happen. There's stuff from the seventies/eighties I can't even find any more on CD or vinyl.
If I'd said 5 years ago they would be selling vinyl in Sainsbury's would you have believed that?
Computers are essentially annoying to me and I don't want to use one to listen to music if I can avoid it.
Audio Al
27-03-2016, 01:04
I would be asking WHY it sounds wrong , surly original vinyl should sound better than CD as its not compressed to s-it :eek:
With all the high and low frequencies cut off :doh:
I have a Joan Armatrading CD and original vinyl , The LP is so much better , even my daughter ask why it sounded so bad , I then confessed that it was a CD ;)
Keep it mate :)
Audio Al
27-03-2016, 01:05
The Eroica is a very musical MC. I have one. I like it!
+1 for the cart , I have one as well :)
awkwardbydesign
27-03-2016, 01:06
If I'd said 5 years ago they would be selling vinyl in Sainsbury's would you have believed that?
Computers are essentially annoying to me and I don't want to use one to listen to music if I can avoid it.
I still don't believe you. You must be imagining it! And I hate computers, but I have dragged myself to within spitting distance of the 21st century, by getting a NAS and a Squeezebox Duet. Also the ability to just download new music from my new best friend, Bandcamp, is priceless. Literally, as much of it is free! And some of it I get on the day it is released, so computers do have their uses.
I still hate them, though.
Dunno .. I've considered converting vinyl to Hard drive. But It's lotsa work... And I'm Lazy :-)
Also have Lost hardrives and CDR's to timing out ...NOT... usage !
Magnetic memory storage clearly sucks.
Goodness of.. is perpetuated by those with something to sell OR self appointed Fanboys /Newly converted twits.
Keep the Vinyl !!
It's worth far less than claimed, at least on the Selling End ;)
Audio Advent
27-03-2016, 05:10
I would be asking WHY it sounds wrong , surly original vinyl should sound better than CD as its not compressed to s-it :eek:
With all the high and low frequencies cut off :doh:
I have a Joan Armatrading CD and original vinyl , The LP is so much better , even my daughter ask why it sounded so bad , I then confessed that it was a CD ;)
Keep it mate :)
There's a lot of EQing going on before the vinyl cutting stage, certainly bass is mono'd and cut off. Then there are original vinyl LPs which are just as compressed as the CD depending on when it was released. And there are some re-issued CDs which then are not compressed whilst the compressed vinyl is never re-released.
Certainly not black and white. Get a good digital setup and all you have to do is stick in your CD and listen. Vinyl, you've still got to set it up correctly and clean your vinyl regularly.
I like both of course.
Audio Advent
27-03-2016, 05:18
Hey Marco - an unrelated question! The photos at the bottom of the thread that I'm looking as I type this quick reply, where did the second one from the left come from? I saw that on ebay today somewhere too... someone's home made pre-amp (just a chinese opamp circuit by the looks of auction). Did it belong to someone here?
It belongs to one of the members, Sam. I forget who. It was submitted last year when we were redoing the banner.
Marco.
I would definitely advise against selling the vinyl.
I did that once, and am now going through the process of trying to find decent quality replacements.
If you have room to keep it, don't sell it. If in a couple of years you have not touched it, then think again.....
Simon_LDT
27-03-2016, 07:58
Don't do it. At least take some decent time to think about it and don't be too hasty. I'd only sell if you need the cash desperately and/or don't have the space to store your LP's while you decide.
Lots of overnight advice! Thanks all. I have the space to keep it and the cash would be a small bonus, not really needed, but the plan would be to plough it back into CDs of albums I will actually listen to.
jandl100
27-03-2016, 08:15
Wait till you can stream everything and wonder why you keep the hard drives...
Yep, that's me already.
Although I never did the hard drive thing.
Streaming has fundamentally changed the way I listen to music.
I was always a bit adventurous, but now pretty much every listening sesh is an adventure into music that is new to me.
I listen to a piece of music I fancy - then click on one of the Spotify search links that accompany it (one of the musicians, the band, the composer) and a whole bunch of new music presents itself -- hmm, those look interesting, I'll save those 2 to my playlist and play this one -- <click> .... and off I go again .... :)
Just amazing. :carrot:
As for vinyl - I've sold up completely and rebought 3 or 4 times now. :doh: I have finally convinced myself that I need a tt setup and vinyl collection even if there are long periods when I don't use them. :)
eisenach
27-03-2016, 15:49
I'd definitely be in the keep the LPs and your preferred turntable camp, even if you just store them. I was an early CD adopter (Philips CD100 - still have it, though more as an ornament) but ran LP and CD side by side for many years as the music just wasn't available on CD. The turntable was a Technics SL-10 parallel tracker that was a technical marvel but didn't really sound that good. CD gradually took over.
A few years ago a colleague offered me his Planar 3 (plus rock / pop LPs) for a bargain price (£125, I think) and that was a revelation compared with the Technics and after many years of just CD, got me back into LP. I mainly listen to classical, though, and for me the whole LP thing is just too much of a worry. Clean ? Set-up right ? Why do the strings sound so scrawny ? End of side distortion ? So, I mostly listen to CDs, with the odd LP splurge.
Rock / Pop's a different matter, though. As I type I'm listening to "Telegraph Road" on the Gyrodeck, and it sounds superb.
I blow hot and cold with LP, and it's nice to have those memories there to dip into when the mood takes me. I'm dabbling with network streaming from a NAS as my CD player does that, too, but the silver disc (CD/SACD) is still king. I have the space, so the discs, silver and black, are going nowhere. I look along the row of LPs and remember when I bought each disc. I'm so glad I kept them when I wasn't really listening to them any more.
Dauntless
27-03-2016, 18:58
I came out of the black stuff around 10 years ago when I found not much difference between my turntable ( Rock Ref ) and CD ( Audio Note set up ). However, I was looking at making savings at the time due to changes in my circumstances. I have replaced most of my favourite LP's with CD's and I am happy with my CD set up. I don't hanker after the black stuff now but at the time it was more difficult because I sold all my record playing gear and my records all at once, having only a few CD's. Now I have plenty of CD's it's not a problem.
I came out of those little silver discs 3 years ago and will never return. I only listen to the black stuff, for me far more satisfying and musical.
If I ever do incorporate some digital it will be via HDD on a NAS hooked up to something like Chords DAVE DAC. This is the only digital set up that has convinced me digital sounds OK but it is expensive.
And why does it sound so good, well it sounds like an analogue system. :lol:
I have a feeling having heard where digital is going it will in the not too distant future sound like the very best vinyl / master tape without the clicks and pops!
Spectral Morn
28-03-2016, 20:09
I'd take Grant's advice. Turntables are more easily replaced than music collections...
Marco.
+ 1
An interesting conundrum. In that it exposes (if that is the right word) all the 'stuff' that surrounds our interest in music reproduction. So whilst many will say it is all about the sound and only that matters, others will admit that, actually, there are all sorts of other psychological shenanigans at play. It's just another example of why all the arguments exist on forums such as this. So if someone tells me valves sound better, I have to ask, yes, but are you not sure it's not because those glowing cosy valves remind you of your grandmas electric fire or the back of your first television set. Can you really cut yourself off from all those influences and make a judgment on sound alone. I'd keep the records whatever you decide to do with rest of your system.
You're right, Andrew. We are complex creatures.
I had a look through today and there is going to be at least a thinning out. Much as I hate to feel emotionally attached to possessions there is quite a lot of records I couldn't bring myself to get rid of. More than I thought. Ah well.
Haselsh1
29-03-2016, 20:06
Martin, in all sincerity, I am going through a major crisis and it's not even based on seven years. Vinyl...! Do I or don't I...?
I was thinking about a brand new tonearm, expensive-ish MC cartridge but now I am just not convinced. For the majority of my music CD is just so goddamn gutsy and powerful and vinyl - well, it isn't.
Also, twenty five quid for a vinyl LP compared to a tenner for a CD...??? WHAT...???
You really are taking the piss...!!!
I shall keep my vinyl collection and keep my TD160 and, I may still get that Origin Live Silver, one thing is for sure though, I am not paying £20-25 when I can pay a tenner and get what is to my ears, a much better sound.
Floyddroid
29-03-2016, 21:24
Martin, in all sincerity, I am going through a major crisis and it's not even based on seven years. Vinyl...! Do I or don't I...?
I was thinking about a brand new tonearm, expensive-ish MC cartridge but now I am just not convinced. For the majority of my music CD is just so goddamn gutsy and powerful and vinyl - well, it isn't.
Also, twenty five quid for a vinyl LP compared to a tenner for a CD...??? WHAT...???
You really are taking the piss...!!!
I shall keep my vinyl collection and keep my TD160 and, I may still get that Origin Live Silver, one thing is for sure though, I am not paying £20-25 when I can pay a tenner and get what is to my ears, a much better sound.
I wouldn't recommend an origin live silver tonearm. Very overated.
Martyn Miles
30-03-2016, 21:10
Recently been buying some albums on CD that I already have on vinyl. It's become a worry.
I'm starting to think I should really sell my vinyl now while interest is high - maybe just keep a hard core of 30 or 40 or so. My Hendrix and Led Zep, and a few albums bought when I was young and some bought for me as birthday presents by fondly recalled ex's. Sell all my decks bar one, Probably keep and use the Systemdek IIX. Keep the RCM, too.
I'm really preferring the CDs and I'm thinking that I'm not going to spend the kind of money on my vinyl system that would bring it up to the level I'd be happy at, whereas I'm happy with the digital side.
The pick of my vinyl I'll offer here first; what doesn't go can go in a job lot to the local s/h record shop and what they don't want can go to the charity shop. I lot of it I'll never play again anyway so what's the point?
Not sure if I want to be talked into this or talked out of it.
I have gone 'the other way', in that I've sold CDs to buy vinyl.
Case in point, the 'Beatles in Mono Remastered' has gone and I'm playing my Beatles LPs again.
If you are buying CDs and own the vinyl copies, then DON'T.
Counselling can be arranged...
Haselsh1
31-03-2016, 13:59
I wouldn't recommend an origin live silver tonearm. Very overated.
Valuable information, thank you.
Haselsh1
31-03-2016, 14:04
For me, a good example is the recent reissue of 'Amused to Death'.
CD is absolutely fabulous in almost every respect except that it didn't cost 36 bloody quid. The classic explosion on vinyl is sodding dangerous whereas on CD it is compressed to hell. The remainder of the album on vinyl is surpassed by the CD.
Stereo image on CD is truly massive, on vinyl, it isn't.
rubber duck
31-03-2016, 19:48
I wouldn't recommend an origin live silver tonearm. Very overated.
I have an OL Silver II and this is a revelation and, to my ears, superior to the current AN Arm 1 that I also had on loan.
Oldpinkman
01-04-2016, 05:48
Joining this late, now we finally have broadband in France. I too am going the other way. Back to vinyl. In (large) part that is for the experience. I like handling big media, a big album cover with sleeve notes you can read without digging out a fiddly booklet, and having to get up to turn it over after 20 minutes. That particularly suits the jazz lp's with a glass of red, after dark, but applies generally.
But it sounds good too. I don't spend hours analysing and comparing, but with few exceptions, casually, I think I prefer the vinyl. So does sue.
Joining this late, now we finally have broadband in France.
Welcome back to the 21st century.
I can't remember the last time I bought a CD.
brian2957
01-04-2016, 07:37
Joining this late, now we finally have broadband in France. I too am going the other way. Back to vinyl. In (large) part that is for the experience. I like handling big media, a big album cover with sleeve notes you can read without digging out a fiddly booklet, and having to get up to turn it over after 20 minutes. That particularly suits the jazz lp's with a glass of red, after dark, but applies generally.
But it sounds good too. I don't spend hours analysing and comparing, but with few exceptions, casually, I think I prefer the vinyl. So does sue.
Ah .. I see you have finally moved to France Richard . Good luck in your new home sir :)
I'm sticking with my file based system for the moment . It does everything I need :)
. Back to vinyl. In (large) part that is for the experience. I like handling big media, a big album cover with sleeve notes you can read without digging out a fiddly booklet, and having to get up to turn it over after 20 minutes. That particularly suits the jazz lp's with a glass of red, after dark, but applies generally.
.
Yes, this is also part of the appeal to me as well.
There's also the issue I'd forgotten which is you can't always get what you want on CD, or they want stupid money, whereas it is available on used vinyl for a reasonable price.
Dont see the problem having best of both worlds.. Tbh i rarely play cds even though they sound good enough on my system. Always feel a little detached from it somehow. Maybe its the cd case..its generally pretty insipid....my rpi gives a better feel, sounds better i think, and you get a bigger more together feel with image and tracks etc... Vinyl of course you do get a large 12" cover with more art and easier to read linear notes etc plus your bit of ritual in cleaning and putting it on tt and seeing it spin...thats something you cant put a price on
And you can't beat the smell of old vinyl! :lol:
kininigin
01-04-2016, 13:57
There have been times in my life when i haven't had a TT to play my records,lots of moving around,being out the country for large amounts of time. I have always made sure that my records are kept safe for future use. There have been times when i've needed money,in those times it's the kit which goes as can be easily replaced!
I wouldn't be so quick to get rid,especially if you have the room and don't need the money!
And you can't beat the smell of old vinyl! :lol:
??? I always thought that was Me.
CornishPasty
04-04-2016, 23:41
As a vinyl enthusiast I can appreciate the issue. CD replay has come a long way in thirty odd years. Unfortunately you now have to spend a lot of cash on a turntable/arm/cart/phono stage to better a good CD player or transport through a good DAC, never mind streaming and all that other stuff. That's progress I'm afraid.
I don't seriously compare the two mediums anymore. It is apples and oranges. I don't follow the general view that digital replay has advanced in real terms, either. I know a lot of work/development has been done on the DAC stage but how much of that translates into 'better sound' and how much is just improvements on paper?
That is a genuine question btw since I've limited experience in trying stand alone DACS in my own system, although heard plenty elsewhere.
By the nature of it 16/44.1 is what it is. Those old high end players had attention paid to the analogue output stage and the power supplies and you can hear the difference quite clearly. I've not heard any digital as good as that from a 1989 Technics SLP1200P - the only problem is keeping the old buggers working!
....or my 1989 Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 ;)
+1 on all of the above, although in terms of outright resolution (retrieving the most detail and information from recordings), some modern DACs do dig a little deeper in that respect, which I can clearly hear with the likes of the IQ-Audio DAC attached to my RPi.
However, as with most modern DACs in comparison with the best vintage varieties, it loses out slightly in the 'low-end heft' stakes, and the ability to underpin music with palpable weight and authority (although that's most likely a multi-bit/TDA1541 thing).
Marco.
Yes that is a good one as well, it would be great to have a shoot out of the Technics vs the Sony. I did locate another working SLP1200P but they were asking over a grand! Mine was £140...
As you say it is the low end heft - that doesn't mean the bass goes deeper, just the sheer power and slam behind it. Actually frightening with some material.
Indeed, and it's largely because of this, which rarely happens these days in CDPs or DACs, since the advent of SMPS...
Those old high end players had attention paid to the analogue output stage and the power supplies and you can hear the difference quite clearly.
Marco.
StanleyB
05-04-2016, 08:04
However, as with most modern DACs in comparison with the best vintage varieties, it loses out slightly in the 'low-end heft' stakes, and the ability to underpin music with palpable weight and authority (although that's most likely a multi-bit/TDA1541 thing).
Those issues are slowly being resolved ;).
I don't think CD can really compete with FBA and a good DAC. The only use I would have for CD would be to rip it to a hard drive attached to a media player.
Digital SQ from FBA sounds to me a much better way go. I have compared CD against ripped CD and the ripped version often sounds better. Interestingly the advancement in DAC technology has made digital sound more analogue.
Are we going to go round in full circle with digital only to end up with something that sounds a little more like analogue ?
Still think cd has a lot to offer. All 3 have slightly differing presentations and can be altered to your tastes. I am not going to dance on its grave just yet:)
jandl100
05-04-2016, 11:13
Well, I'm not that sure it is fair to say that they have intrinsically differing presentations - it's mostly about the playback kit, imo. Especially for vinyl - so many sonic flavours to choose from!
Elephantears
05-04-2016, 11:28
I just saw this thread and have one system related thought. The Firebottle phono stage has very low MM gain, and the Nagaoka carts are pretty low output. Unless you have a lot of gain in your preamp this could well sound anemic compared to your average 2V CD source. I have tried the FB with a Nagaoka MP500 and I thought it sounded great, but only when I used it with my Unico Pre and DM, which has a lot of gain. In another application I found this to be lacking in guts. Getting the gain chain right is everything in phono replay.
Digital SQ from FBA sounds to me a much better way go. I have compared CD against ripped CD and the ripped version often sounds better. ?
And there were no other variables involved in this comparison?
Either way it is a computer reading a data file. There is no reason why there should be any difference between reading a file from an optical disc and reading a file from a hard drive.
I think part of the reason we have not progressed at all with digital is that there are far too many myths surrounding how digital replay works and these myths are propagated by hi-fi journalists and manufacturers.
The journalists because they have no understanding and can't be bothered to take a couple of hours to basically educate themselves in the subject and the manufactures because they know that to make a mousetrap that really is an improvement will be expensive and punters won't buy it because they believe what the journalists say about improving digital: i.e it is the DAC chip or the resolution or the bit depth and so on and not the things that will cost money like discrete AO stages and power supplies.
But the journalist keep telling us 'digital has come on leaps and bounds' and people believe it until they get a proper listen to a high end player from 25 years ago.
I've not heard an old school stand alone DAC like the Technics Oldius has got but I'd bet money that will be superior to all of the modern wall wart supplied DACS even those costing thousands of pounds.
jandl100
05-04-2016, 12:05
It all depends what you want - you'd trade resolution for bass heft, Martin, I'd do the trade the other way round.
And there were no other variables involved in this comparison?
Either way it is a computer reading a data file. There is no reason why there should be any difference between reading a file from an optical disc and reading a file from a hard drive.
I think part of the reason we have not progressed at all with digital is that there are far too many myths surrounding how digital replay works and these myths are propagated by hi-fi journalists and manufacturers.
The journalists because they have no understanding and can't be bothered to take a couple of hours to basically educate themselves in the subject and the manufactures because they know that to make a mousetrap that really is an improvement will be expensive and punters won't buy it because they believe what the journalists say about improving digital: i.e it is the DAC chip or the resolution or the bit depth and so on and not the things that will cost money like discrete AO stages and power supplies.
But the journalist keep telling us 'digital has come on leaps and bounds' and people believe it until they get a proper listen to a high end player from 25 years ago.
I've not heard an old school stand alone DAC like the Technics Oldius has got but I'd bet money that will be superior to all of the modern wall wart supplied DACS even those costing thousands of pounds.
That's a bold statement for a one eyed fat man Martin...
Maybe you'd be right. :)
As I say I'm not sure 'cause I 'aint tried it but experience tells me it's worth a bet.
If I'm right it would mean that 90% of what is talked about in terms of improvements in modern DACs is irrelevant bollocks. It would be useful to know for sure.
It all depends what you want - you'd trade resolution for bass heft, Martin, I'd do the trade the other way round.
I don't see that there is a need to trade anything. In any case I don't see the point of a 'more resolving' DAC when you have still got all that 'mush' hanging there behind the sound because the more important things haven't been attended to.
And don't get me wrong the 'mush' doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the sound produced - my current Sony has it, although not as bad as some, and still sounds very good. But when you have heard the same recording played without the mush - then you know what is possible.
When I was at Marco's I asked him to play 'ZZ Top's First Album' for the tape hiss because the mush interferes with the tape hiss - so I know his player doesn't have it. Otherwise, on an unfamiliar system, it is hard to isolate it.
And there were no other variables involved in this comparison?
Either way it is a computer reading a data file. There is no reason why there should be any difference between reading a file from an optical disc and reading a file from a hard drive.
I think part of the reason we have not progressed at all with digital is that there are far too many myths surrounding how digital replay works and these myths are propagated by hi-fi journalists and manufacturers.
The journalists because they have no understanding and can't be bothered to take a couple of hours to basically educate themselves in the subject and the manufactures because they know that to make a mousetrap that really is an improvement will be expensive and punters won't buy it because they believe what the journalists say about improving digital: i.e it is the DAC chip or the resolution or the bit depth and so on and not the things that will cost money like discrete AO stages and power supplies.
But the journalist keep telling us 'digital has come on leaps and bounds' and people believe it until they get a proper listen to a high end player from 25 years ago.
I've not heard an old school stand alone DAC like the Technics Oldius has got but I'd bet money that will be superior to all of the modern wall wart supplied DACS even those costing thousands of pounds.
Hi Martin, I did this evaluation using a very expensive DAC called DAVE.
I really need to get a session organised as promised for you to come and hear what an be done with digital. I assure you, you will be surprised. I have had problem getting a Saturday free but next opportunity I will let you know and hope we can work something out.
It's not worth me trying to put into words what I have heard, it needs to be experienced first hand.:)
It's not worth me trying to put into words what I have heard, it needs to be experienced first hand.:)
Always the case in this hobby :)
I thought you had gone off the idea or I would have mentioned it previously. Yes, I'm always up for a meet or a bake-off.
There are potential problems with your comparison;
The CD and the file may not be identical, the connection between transport/DAC and computer/DAC may not be identical, the transport may be inferior to another transport that would sound as good as the computer.
The last one in particular is a little difficult to get around unless you think all transports will sound the same. My experience is that they don't.
jandl100
05-04-2016, 19:10
I don't see that there is a need to trade anything. In any case I don't see the point of a 'more resolving' DAC when you have still got all that 'mush' hanging there behind the sound because the more important things haven't been attended to.
I guess I was referring to Marco's post ...
+1 on all of the above, although in terms of outright resolution (retrieving the most detail and information from recordings), some modern DACs do dig a little deeper in that respect, which I can clearly hear with the likes of the IQ-Audio DAC attached to my RPi.
However, as with most modern DACs in comparison with the best vintage varieties, it loses out slightly in the 'low-end heft' stakes, and the ability to underpin music with palpable weight and authority (although that's most likely a multi-bit/TDA1541 thing).
Marco.
I hear significantly more rez with the best modern DACs I have tried than with the vintage gear I have owned and heard.
I prefer the modern DAC sound. I'll take an ectra level of rez over ultimate bass heft.
Always the case in this hobby :)
I thought you had gone off the idea or I would have mentioned it previously. Yes, I'm always up for a meet or a bake-off.
There are potential problems with your comparison
The CD and the file may not be identical, the connection between transport/DAC and computer/DAC may not be identical, the transport may be inferior to another transport that would sound as good as the computer.
The last one in particular is a little difficult to get around unless you think all transports will sound the same. My experience is that they don't.
Absolutely agree with all you have said regarding differences in transports, connections etc. The information read by the CD player will be different from the ripped version as it will no doubt have errors caused by surface imperfections which will then have to be corrected by the player thus degrading SQ. A good bit of ripping software will copy the CD onto a file and compare it against up to 5 databases on the net which will ensure a bit perfect file copy on a NAS HDD.
What I find is that the ripped CD will sound smoother and more listenable as compared to plain vanilla CD unless it is absolutely perfect. The CD transport and power supply/ DAC etc will all impose its sonic signature on the digital information including loads of the usual stuff like jitter etc. The FBA copy has less interference as it where via a media player/DAC and as it should be bit perfect sounds better. That is my theory and experience.
So when you retrieve the digital file from your NAS and fire it into a really good DAC like DAVE you will end up with a fabulous digital experience and I can certainly say there is no loss of heft in the bass or across any of the audio spectrum.
I can assure you what I have heard is simply awesome! And I am a vinyl/ analogue only fanboy!
It still sounds digital but miles away from any CD player I have ever heard. A bit closer to analogue but different.
Ultimately for me nothing yet I have heard beats a good recording on vinyl wether it's from digital or analogue source.
All the distortion and colouration in the analogue chain creates a bit of magic to my ears that no digital system has yet captured.:)
Elephantears
05-04-2016, 20:28
GAIN.
I just saw the OPs full kit list and noticed the passive pre, so I must reiterate my point. A Firebottle phono stage with a passive pre and a low output MM with about 3mV. That is just not enough gain.
Firebottle
05-04-2016, 20:46
The Firebottle phono stage has very low MM gain,
I don't know where you get his from, the MM gain is about 40dB.
Elephantears
05-04-2016, 20:52
Ok, but in the context of his system. If it's a 3mV cart and 40dB gain into a passive pre, then his power amp is only getting 300mV. Am I not calculating that correctly? Sure 40dB is going to be ok with most MM carts into most preamps, but with a relatively low output MM like a Nagaoka into a passive pre, it's got to be a struggle.
AudioFreak
05-04-2016, 20:52
I find myself going through peaks and troughs with vinyl, sometimes it really bothers me with all the effort of finding good recordings, let alone the added problem of a good pressing, having to meticulously clean before playing, getting OTT with the storage (as the wife will endorse). Other times I just love the constant tinkering and satisfaction of hearing a good recording on a good pressing, sounding better than the CD version I have. I have always resisted the temptation of selling my vinyl collection though, it has taken me a long time to find the right material, some LP's I have four or five copies from different years of manufacture/remaster and I have still kept them all. Really OTT I know.
I agree with what others have said on here, get rid of your analogue equipment if you're not enjoying it any more, but keep the vinyl records. I have seen too many people make that mistake and really regret it later. It is far easier to get the hardware again later, especially when you may have more disposable income and more time to devote.
I guess I was referring to Marco's post ...
I hear significantly more rez with the best modern DACs I have tried than with the vintage gear I have owned and heard.
I prefer the modern DAC sound. I'll take an ectra level of rez over ultimate bass heft.
Yup... You pays yer money and takes your choice. Compromises in hi-fi (in all areas) are inevitable :)
Marco.
Ok, but in the context of his system. If it's a 3mV cart and 40dB gain into a passive pre, then his power amp is only getting 300mV. Am I not calculating that correctly? Sure 40dB is going to be ok with most MM carts into most preamps, but with a relatively low output MM like a Nagaoka into a passive pre, it's got to be a struggle.
No, I don't have a gain issue. The difference between a low volume mastered CD and a low volume mastered LP is about 2 clicks on the pre-amp - or 6dB - I never have any problems getting any recording to play as loud as I want. And that is in a large room sat 20 feet from the speakers.
Marco and Alan have both had a good long listen to my system with vinyl as the source - whilst Marco tweaked a few things he did say towards the end of his visit that he had not once thought about the amplification side of things because there just weren't any issues to address.
brian2957
06-04-2016, 07:24
I don't think CD can really compete with FBA and a good DAC. The only use I would have for CD would be to rip it to a hard drive attached to a media player.
Digital SQ from FBA sounds to me a much better way go. I have compared CD against ripped CD and the ripped version often sounds better. Interestingly the advancement in DAC technology has made digital sound more analogue.
Are we going to go round in full circle with digital only to end up with something that sounds a little more like analogue ?
I totally agree with this James . I got rid of my turntable ( and albums :rolleyes: ) many years ago and I have come to the conclusion that I have spent the last few years , in particular , trying to get my system to sound more analogue . I firmly believe that that's where we're going with digital music reproduction .
Absolutely agree with all you have said regarding differences in transports, connections etc. The information read by the CD player will be different from the ripped version as it will no doubt have errors caused by surface imperfections which will then have to be corrected by the player thus degrading SQ.
Except that error correction doesn't degrade the sound. Another myth repeated endlessly on line and in print - don't forget that all we are doing with digital is re-creating a simple waveform, amplitude against wavelength - all the error correction does is interpolate where there is a gap in the information due to damage.
Remember when you did Physics or Maths and you had to plot points on a graph and then join the dots? You didn't need an infinite number of plots to be able to draw the curve.
If the damage is too great to be corrected you will get skips or spitch or clicks or a dropout, or the CD may stop playing altogether. What you won't get is uninterrupted sound at a lower quality level. It just don't work that way.
Now I have done absolutely zero experiments with FBA personally. However I notice that for every person who says it is superior to the CD there is someone who reckons the opposite is true.
If FBA is inherently superior I have yet to hear a valid reason why.
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