View Full Version : Audionote IO1 v Ortofon Cadenza Black
Wakefield Turntables
26-03-2016, 18:38
Which one would you select and why?
RobbieGong
26-03-2016, 18:52
Having had its Shibata clad siblings (2M Black and currently Quintet Black) and knowing what Ortofon Shibatas do it would be the Cadenza without question.
Why ? as expressed above plus anyone I know who has had one has been smitten, namely Tarzan, Clive197 and your good self Mr REXTON :)
As is often the case with high end quality carts what you'll get is not necessarily better but different. ;)
Ha - as ever, Rob, we're going to disagree on this particular subject, whilst respecting our contrary opinions ;)
Personally, I'd go with the AN, all day long, as IME they produce much more musically convincing cartridges than Ortofon do these days. Approximately post 1995, SPU aside, Ortofon started voicing their cartridges rather differently, with the emphasis more on 'hi-fi accuracy' than music.
YMMV :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
26-03-2016, 19:15
Ha - as ever, Rob, we're going to disagree on this particular subject, whilst respecting our contrary opinions ;)
Personally, I'd go with the AN, all day long, as IME they produce much more musically convincing cartridges than Ortofon do these days. (Approximately) post 1995, SPU aside, Ortofon started voicing their cartridges rather differently, with the emphasis more on 'hi-fi accuracy' than music.
YMMV :)
Marco.
:) absolute respect for each others views Marco, everytime. Just noshin with the wife n girls but will be back later ;)
Enjoy, mate. It would be a rather boring world if we all liked the same thing! :cool:
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
26-03-2016, 20:02
An Io can be a truly lovely thing to hear, when properly partnered, but therein lies the big challenge. Things can get very expensive, but at least the Io is British built and can be serviced and rebuilt by AN indefinitely, so quite possibly a cartridge for life.
Personally, I'd have neither of these cartridges when such astonishingly beguiling sounds can be had from a Miyajima.
I'll tell you what is clearly better than both ... the Io Ltd.
I wish someone would do a field coil mc at even a semi-affordable price. Surely it can't be that difficult? ... a couple of coils of wire, a diamond, a little rod, a bit of rubber, a tether, a pivot and a steady hand :scratch:
hifi_dave
27-03-2016, 09:59
Not a fan of the Cadenzas - too thin and stark for my liking. I prefer a bit more body and solidity.
Clive197
27-03-2016, 12:23
Not a fan of the Cadenzas - too thin and stark for my liking. I prefer a bit more body and solidity.
Respect. Just goes to prove how we hear and our personal preferences influence our taste. As Marco said, "It would be a rather boring world if we all liked the same thing".:cool:
One mans "body and solidity" is another man "thick and bloated"
I'll tell you what is clearly better than both ... the Io Ltd.
I wish someone would do a field coil mc at even a semi-affordable price. Surely it can't be that difficult? ... a couple of coils of wire, a diamond, a little rod, a bit of rubber, a tether, a pivot and a steady hand :scratch:
If it's not that difficult, I'll knock one up in my shed this afternoon! :lol:
BTH K10A
27-03-2016, 14:07
If it's not that difficult, I'll knock one up in my shed this afternoon! :lol:
This guy didn't find it too difficult
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spNd6HKNmHc
I look forward to you presenting your version later today Barry :D
Another case of 'nice gear, shame about the music'! How folk can sit and listen to that mind-numbing monotonous pap, I'll never know.... :doh:
Marco.
Hardly ever listen to anything now, far less pap. Seem to have lost interest. The systems a bit bright at moment too which aint helping i guess. Gonna rip it all out when in the mood.
RobbieGong
27-03-2016, 14:16
Another case of 'nice gear, shame about the music'! How folk can sit and listen to that mind-numbing monotonous pap, I'll never know.... :doh:
Marco.
:lol:
Whilst I admire his enterprise, sadly the results are hard and screeching to my ears. How do you know he made the cartridge himself?
Well I have a spare TSD-G headshell and a 9 volt battery, so there's a start! ;)
BTH K10A
27-03-2016, 14:55
Whilst I admire his enterprise, sadly the results are hard and screeching to my ears. How do you know he made the cartridge himself?
Well I have a spare TSD-G headshell and a 9 volt battery, so there's a start! ;)
How about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skJtBqIdYX4&ebc=ANyPxKrt3xX6WrwkgKf5HyetRxvpfWhlk41R94jhocKsgi m9JSQ1RrHleXl5RYS6YTDORItREaoy
Well the choice of music is much better, but the 'sound' is just as bad: hard and ear-piercingly shrill. If it sounded like that at the original performance, I would have walked out! :( The system hum and 100Hz buzz/whine did little to improve things either!
sq225917
27-03-2016, 16:28
Yeh, cos that youtube is the highest fidelity, especially when coming off a guy's cameraphone.
....and played back via quality(!) laptop/tablet/phone speakers etc.
pure sound
27-03-2016, 16:42
There's more to it than just incorporating any old electromagnet as well. ;)
walpurgis
27-03-2016, 17:21
Hard to be sure from that, but I get the impression the speakers have some serious colourations.
tis a tad hard and tinny at the top; trouble is that recording is mostly up the top. Dunno what that recording would sound like on another system; would have been a good comparison. Also much will depend on the camera's mic I guess
There's more to it than just incorporating any old electromagnet as well. ;)
Do tell ....
Yeh, cos that youtube is the highest fidelity, especially when coming off a guy's cameraphone.
....and played back via quality(!) laptop/tablet/phone speakers etc.
Of course, which begs the question why do people make YouTube clips of their audio systems, when the audio reproduction via the poster's videocamera and the viewer's computer is so poor?
I listened via a pair of Sony headphones, so probably not much better.
I did a couple of quickies via my iphone and it sounded better than that did. ..again though I would be interested to here that record in another system to compare
pure sound
27-03-2016, 22:00
Do tell ....
Material the (electromagnet) coil formers are made from. Shape of the coil formers. General construction of the rest of the cartridge including how the wires are dressed before they head off to the pins on the back Rigidity of cartridge body, presence of air pockets in cartridge body. Material moving coil former is made from. Choice of cantilever etc etc.
Hi Guy ... it's your Io Ltd that so impressed me a couple of times at Scalford, so I'd be interested on your thoughts on why it is so good. Is it the field coil approach, or is it just a better engineered cartridge? As often said, a magnetic field doesn't know or care how it was generated ... but I've also found field coil speakers that seem (to my ears) rather special, too.
pure sound
28-03-2016, 12:26
A magnetic circuit can be altered by the shape & materials comprising its constituent parts. The induction of a signal in a moving coil will affect the field the coil is suspended in, as will the shape of the pole pieces focussing the field at the moving coil. It's preferable not to have a magnetic circuit with odd shaped elements, discontinuities, inconsistent materials etc. The flux lines should run around the circuit without 'turbulence'. This applies as much to speaker drivers as MC cartridges.
Personally I think the use of the alloy Permendur for the pole pieces and the way they are shaped contributes a great deal to the efficacy of the electromagnet in the Io Ltd. But Permendur is also incorporated in the magnetic circuits of speaker drivers like Lowther's PM4a as well as boutique Japanese drivers by the likes of Ale & Goto. It isn't a new technology & it is expensive unfortunately. It does seem to be beneficial though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permendur
But other aspects of the design also contribute. The rigid construction plays a big part along with the other design features mentioned earlier.
Thanks Guy! As an ex-instrumentation designer, I do actually appreciate some of the potential difficulties. Lord knows how many unsuccesful prototypes would get binned before getting it right. Just wish someone like Denon had taken on the challenge 50 years ago ... we'd all be using field coil cartridges at £200 a pop, maybe.
BTW, I was going to introduce myself to you at Scalford, but every time I saw you, you were busy setting up cartridges ... hope you were charging for the service :D
pure sound
28-03-2016, 15:32
Thanks Guy! As an ex-instrumentation designer, I do actually appreciate some of the potential difficulties. Lord knows how many unsuccesful prototypes would get binned before getting it right. Just wish someone like Denon had taken on the challenge 50 years ago ... we'd all be using field coil cartridges at £200 a pop, maybe.
BTW, I was going to introduce myself to you at Scalford, but every time I saw you, you were busy setting up cartridges ... hope you were charging for the service :D
I did seem to get roped into a fair bit of that this time (no payments sadly :)) but it was a nice opportunity to hear a few different & interesting ones on some very fine turntables. Regardless of that you should still have said hello!
With regard to magnetic circuit design I think it's arguably a good deal easier now with FEA & modelling software than it would've been 30 years ago when Kondo was designing that cartridge. I've no doubt that the internal profiles could be further optimised if anyone had the will to try and such shapes might be easier to machine now aswell. There probably is still scope for a good few improvements in cartridge design if the right people are motivated to try.
I owned a Cadenza Black for a while. I really liked it, as did many others who heard it at Scalford and at Bake Offs at my house. It is a very nice cartridge.
Then I got an Audio Note Kondo cartridge. This is the original Japanese version. Although I didnt own them both at the same time to enable a direct comparison, I feel that the AN cartridge
was clearly the better sounding of the two. Others who had heard both thought so too.
So, not an IO 1, but from the same family.
I would suggest IO out of the two.
RobbieGong
28-03-2016, 20:14
I owned a Cadenza Black for a while. I really liked it, as did many others who heard it at Scalford and at Bake Offs at my house. It is a very nice cartridge.
Then I got an Audio Note Kondo cartridge. This is the original Japanese version. Although I didnt own them both at the same time to enable a direct comparison, I feel that the AN cartridge
was clearly the better sounding of the two. Others who had heard both thought so too.
So, not an IO 1, but from the same family.
I would suggest IO out of the two.
What is the price of a new Kondo ?
What is the price of a new Kondo ?
I think there's been a few variants over the years but IIRC they're in 4 to 6k territory. Ultra low output too.
As for the predictably boring Ortofon crapping I'm not even going to bother to pass comment; it's taken me a year to realise just how painfully agenda driven this forum is. Perhaps I've not spent enough time here or I would have 'got it' sooner ;)
The AN Io1 currently sells for £900 more than the Cadenza Black UK rrp.
Not aware of any anti-ortofon agenda here. Quite a few prominent members are long time users of the cadenza black. Unfortunately, it's not a cartridge I've lived with, but it was clearly very, very good whenever I have heard one ... just as I've come to expect from that company. Whether I'd prefer it to the Io1 would pretty much depend on system-matching.
As for the predictably boring Ortofon crapping I'm not even going to bother to pass comment; it's taken me a year to realise just how painfully agenda driven this forum is. Perhaps I've not spent enough time here or I would have 'got it' sooner ;)
Agenda driven? I don't think so, Adam. Perhaps you could cite examples of what you perceive as such?
Also "Ortofon crapping"? I don't see any evidence of that either, unless you mean honest opinions from those of us who've heard some Ortofon cartridges, and don't rate them as much as those from other manufacturers, at similar price points?
In which case, what should we do, shut up and keep it to ourselves, lest we risk upsetting the sensitive little souls here who use them? ;) With all due respect, I think you're being a bit touchy...
FYI, my turntable contains two Ortofon items, which I rate very highly indeed, so I'm far from being 'anti-Ortofon', as indeed neither is anyone else here who's expressed similar views about certain Ortofon products, based on considerable experience of using them. Being constructively critical of something does not equate to "crapping".
Marco.
Also "Ortofon crapping"? I don't see any evidence of that either, unless you mean honest opinions from those of us who've heard some Ortofon cartridges, and don't rate them as much as those from other manufacturers at similar price points?
In which case, what should we do, shut up and keep it to ourselves, lest we risk upsetting the sensitive little souls here who use them? ;) With all due respect, I think you're being a bit touchy...
I was referring to Ortofon Carts specifically.
Touchy about someone on the internet saying something I disagree with?
No. Just a little disappointed.
Sure I could spend a few hours reading back through years worth of threads highlighting everything I have issue with but I won't.
You'd probably just delete it anyway.
-
There are some really nice folk and genuine enthusiasts on this site but alas, virtually every thread these days is infected with the same agenda driven dogma.
Ironically, pretty much in stark contrast to this: 'Free-thinkers challenge 'currently accepted wisdom', and push boundaries, which makes progress happen. Long live the free-thinkers and non-conformists!'
-
And on that note; I think I'd best leave you to it. Sayōnara!!
Clive197
29-03-2016, 08:55
..........lest we risk upsetting the sensitive little souls here who use them? ;)
Marco.
Oy, who are you calling a sensitive little soul, I'll have you know I'm not little.:D:D:D
I have no issues with other members choice or preferences. Except of course the sensitive little/medium/big soul members who praise the venerable Denon 103, G.d forbid anybody who should criticise that little bit of kit.:doh:
Very odd conclusion... I use an ortophon cart and have not noticed it...overall probably the opposite actually. A good chunk of the guys use them too or have used them.
I used to think very highly of the Cadenza Black back in the day, especially in comparison to some of its siblings, such as the Jubilee or even the A90; to my ears, the Black clearly outperformed both of those.
However, after listening to some equivalently priced offerings from ZYX, Shelter and Phasemation, I should say that I much preferred those over the Ortofon which, to my ears, sounded a tad bland and too clinical in comparison.
Thats a fair opinion john.. I actually now prefer my shure mm to my expensive ort mc, but its not a sllight on ortofon ...
Oh, no slight intended here as well. Far from it.
I've owned quite a few Ortofon cartridges over the years and immensely enjoyed my time with them.
I just happen to find ZYX or Shelter a tad closer to my current tastes and liking. Maybe I'm just getting older?
I like ortofon cartridges esp the now discontinued kontraB. I don't find it bland in anyway whatsoever, far from it. Its engaging, conveys the music brilliantly and has great detail retrieval and tracking abilities. I also liked the jubilee when I had one many years ago, I think its important to put things into context when making judgements about sound quality, there may be more synergy at work than it seems at first. Ortofon's tend to measure very well with an extended and relatively flat frequency response this may or may not suit one's system or ears.
Would love to have a Cadenza black one day but would need the assistance of the lottery to get one! Cant say Ive ever heard an AN of any description but would hope they are are good given the cost. I recently bought an AT33PTG/II and read so may differing views on the internet that it was mind boggling but Im glad I did especially now its run in, over the first 20 hours it changed significantly the top end smoothing out and the bass filling out. At first it was over bright and a bit thin with loads and loads of detail highlighted, I could have easily slammed it as poor if I had not given it time. It has a great synergy on my Datum S arm.
As much as I like the dear old 103/103R for its initial fun factor, Ive found overtime that its limitations are just too annoying for me to continue to use it for any length of time. Getting a 103D rebuilt by Goldring a few years back showed just how they can be improved though with a new generator and fine line stylus, my rebuilt D remains one of my favourite cartridges.
walpurgis
29-03-2016, 11:24
My main experience of Ortofons is earlyish vintage MCs, which can be excellent, but I have had a couple of MC25FLs and thought they were very nice indeed. Somewhat on a par musically with the ZYX R50 Bloom, but not the same obviously. I'd say that was compliment enough.
ZYXs currently remain my favourites. Not owned a Shelter, but have heard them and liked the sound.
I won't comment on the DL-103. 'Cos I say rude things.
Anybody using an Eroica LX? A very underrated MC in my opinion. I have one of those too.
Ali Tait
29-03-2016, 11:44
Yes have an LX and like it. Not used it for a while though.
What exactly is 'High Fidelity?'
Is the above term the absolute closest we can get to the mastering session (vinyl cutting session on this case), or do you want a nice entertaining sound that bears little resemblance to the original sound as desired by the mastering/cutting engineer?
Just a thought...
I was referring to Ortofon Carts specifically.
Touchy about someone on the internet saying something I disagree with?
No. Just a little disappointed.
Disappointed, why? Because I'm disagreeing with your opinion on Ortofon cartridges, or simply not qualifying your buying decisions? I can't see anything else for you to be 'disappointed' about. Unless that is, you're just 'disappointed' when not being told that you're right ;)
Sure I could spend a few hours reading back through years worth of threads highlighting everything I have issue with but I won't.
You'd probably just delete it anyway.
Nope, far from it. Nothing would be deleted, as I've specifically asked you to back up your assertions with fact, so I'll take your non-answer as indication of there being no such facts to back up your assertions.
There are some really nice folk and genuine enthusiasts on this site but alas, virtually every thread these days is infected with the same agenda driven dogma.
*Virtually every thread*... Really??
Yet more grossly exaggerated bollocks, based on your now (for some reason) negatively biased view of the forum. So where is this so-called "agenda driven dogma"? I'm afraid until you actually supply some evidence, which proves that accusation, it is nothing more than hot air.
Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me sometimes how some folk live in their own tiny little bubbles, which are almost completely divorced from reality!! :doh:
Flounce off in a silly strop if you like, over something you've simply imagined in your head, if it makes you feel better than actually facing the facts.
Marco.
Oy, who are you calling a sensitive little soul, I'll have you know I'm not little.:D:D:D
I have no issues with other members choice or preferences. Except of course the sensitive members who praise the venerable Denon 103, G.d forbid anybody who criticises them little/medium/big souls.:doh:
Lol!
Opinions on any subject are there to be expressed, and if necessary, defended or challenged accordingly. As long as it's done politely and constructively (in all instances), then no-one should have an issue with it :)
Marco.
What exactly is 'High Fidelity?'
Is the above term the absolute closest we can get to the mastering session (vinyl cutting session on this case), or do you want a nice entertaining sound that bears little resemblance to the original sound as desired by the mastering/cutting engineer?
Just a thought...
Couldnt care what it actually is to others really. It is what I like, to me, and i guess it is to others what they like. Bit of a mouthful, so glad i didnt orate it ;)
Some will say its as you say, something that is as close to what the engineers etc wanted, but as we will probably never actually know what he or she heard then its up to the individual listener imho
Disappointing, why? Because I'm disagreeing with your opinion on Ortofon cartridges? If not, I can't see anything else for you to be 'disappointed' about. Unless that is, you become 'disappointed' when not everyone agrees with your opinions.
Nope, far from it. Nothing would be deleted, as I've specifically asked you to back up your assertions with fact, so I'll take your non-answer as indication of there being no such facts to back up your assertions.
Virtually every thread... Really?? Yet more exaggerated bollocks, based on your now (for some reason) negatively biased view of the forum. I'm afraid until you actually supply some evidence that confirms the accusations you've made, they are nothing more than hot air.
Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me sometimes how some folk live in their own tiny little bubbles, which are almost completely divorced from reality!! :doh:
Marco.
It would seem that, according to some, that if a member offers an opinion it is just that whereas if a moderator or the site owner offers an opinion it is 'agenda driven dogma'
It is all just opinion, folks! And anyone is free to agree or disagree with anyone else, providing they keep it respectful.
It would seem that, according to some, that if a member offers an opinion it is just that whereas if a moderator or the site owner offers an opinion it is 'agenda driven dogma'
It is all just opinion, folks! And anyone is free to agree or disagree with anyone else, providing they keep it respectful.
Exactly!! And that really pisses me off. It's a ridiculous way of looking at things.
Any hi-fi view I express here is simply that of Marco, the hi-fi enthusiast, no more, no less - and carries no more 'authority', in that respect, than that of anyone else here. Moreover, and most importantly, unless specifically stated, it does not represent 'the official position of AoS', much as some folk's fragile egos or agendas seemingly would like that to be the case!
Marco.
What exactly is 'High Fidelity?'
Is the above term the absolute closest we can get to the mastering session (vinyl cutting session on this case), or do you want a nice entertaining sound that bears little resemblance to the original sound as desired by the mastering/cutting engineer?
Just a thought...
I dunno. How many people here or on any other forum have been present at a recording/mastering/cutting session to be able to judge? Your question also presumes that 'the original sound' can't also be a 'nice entertaining sound', and vice-versa. Speaking personally, if the sound isn't 'entertaining' (broadly defined) then I won't be listening.
I'm guessing that most people will make the unspoken assumption: 'I like the sound my system makes, therefore it must be truthful, or I wouldn't like it'. I know I do.
anthonyTD
29-03-2016, 13:14
Its the latter Dave,
As most of us are trying to mask the mistakes the recording engineers did! ;)
Just kidding...Or am I ? :eyebrows:
What exactly is 'High Fidelity?'
Is the above term the absolute closest we can get to the mastering session (vinyl cutting session on this case), or do you want a nice entertaining sound that bears little resemblance to the original sound as desired by the mastering/cutting engineer?
Just a thought...
Over the years I have used several Ortofon cartidges:
SPUGTE, SL15E, SL15E Mk.II and MC20. It was only the MC20 I found a little disappointing, replacing it with a Linn Asak and later an EMT XSD15.
Today I still use some Ortofon cartridges:
MC200 ('Concord'), MC25FL and a newish SPU-GM. I love them all, as I do my EMT cartridges. I have no experience of the current Ortofons (apart from the SPU), so cannot really comment on their 'voicing'.
I'm unaware of any "agenda" concerning cartridges (or any other component for that matter) here on AoS. We seem to be a pretty broad church; there are as many members who love the Denon DL103, as there are who don't.
I'm unaware of any "agenda" concerning cartridges (or any other component for that matter) here on AoS. We seem to be a pretty broad church; there are as members who love the Denon DL103 as there are who don't.
Absolutely. At least there's someone here able to separate *reality* from fantasy land! ;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
29-03-2016, 13:58
I was referring to Ortofon Carts specifically.
Touchy about someone on the internet saying something I disagree with?
No. Just a little disappointed.
Sure I could spend a few hours reading back through years worth of threads highlighting everything I have issue with but I won't.
You'd probably just delete it anyway.
-
There are some really nice folk and genuine enthusiasts on this site but alas, virtually every thread these days is infected with the same agenda driven dogma.
Ironically, pretty much in stark contrast to this: 'Free-thinkers challenge 'currently accepted wisdom', and push boundaries, which makes progress happen. Long live the free-thinkers and non-conformists!'
-
And on that note; I think I'd best leave you to it. Sayōnara!!
Eh? What are you on about?
Have a cup of tea and a biscuit and come back when you are feeling a little less Citizen Smith.
RobbieGong
29-03-2016, 14:56
One thing we do have here is people who are passionate and expressive about the particular cartridges they have experience of, i'm definitely one of those types, particularly with regards to the Shibata clad Ortofons which I love. I've learned a lot about Denon's and other carts here, because of people like me. As a result of this openly expressive 'experience sharing' environment and although i'm not what you'd call a 'swapper' i'd love to hear a fair few of these other carts one day :)
One thing we do have here is people who are passionate and expressive about the particular cartridges they have experience of...
Precisely, Rob - and that's a *very* different thing indeed from "agenda driven dogma".
It's interesting noting the difference in the reaction of Clive and you, as both fans of modern Ortofon cartridges (and the Cadenza Black in particular), towards what I wrote about the matter, and Adam......
I am VERY passionate, enthusiastic and expressive about what I believe in, when it comes to any subject, audio-related or otherwise, and I certainly won't stifle that simply because some folk either don't like it or interpret it in completely the wrong way!
Marco.
sq225917
29-03-2016, 15:45
To answer the original question. I'd take the Lo over pretty much anything out there.
Wakefield Turntables
29-03-2016, 19:43
To answer the original question. I'd take the Lo over pretty much anything out there.
:lol: 57 Posts of banter and one straight answer! Seriously, I'm thinking that I might just do both and have the IO1 as Reference MC on my Valve setup.
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