View Full Version : I'm fighting a losing battle .. With space of all things! New speakers the answer?
The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2009, 23:13
I have just spent a good 2 1/2 hours re-aranging my hifi
previously my pmcs were each facing the side of each sofa with the drivers clearing the arm. I had them like that as they were part of the ss set up so either side of the tv
pros:
1. a bit if breathing room all around them (although not much)
2. I was happy with the overall balance of the sound for the most part
cons:
1. No sweet spot listening position on the sofa
2. Because of the odd shape of the room it was imposible to get a good sound stage, it was always wonky to the left and a bit I'll defined!
They are now behind the sofa in the bay window so the drivers sit just above the back of one of the sofas... Not ideal as the trasmission line ports are hidden behind the whole sofa:
pros:
1: sound stage is much better
2: sweet spot on the oposite sofa (big deal for me after so long without such a luxury
cons:
1: sound is unbalanced - the sofa in front of the speakers is playing hell with the bass. some freqencys seems to have gone AWOL where as some are now boomy as anything... I am asuming my sofa has become part what's now generating the sound
basically I'm pissed off! It was a right faff moving all this crap about and now I'm not sure which bloody compromise was better!!
So, since I'm spending some money on my system over the next week or so Maybe I should (dare I say it) change my speakers... Mybe the pmc's are just not suitable for the room? Maybe a pair of tasty stand mounters might suit better?
So, £1000 max second hand stand mounters... What's going to happily outperform the pmcs?
I like the look of some of these focals and heard some I though were pretty good the other day... Might that be a good place to start looking?
Spectral Morn
04-11-2009, 23:25
Hi Hamish
Just spent the day changing bits of my set up round.
Post a photo or two of your room so we can see what we are working with. I suspect that the sofas will ruin what ever you do. Small/medium stand mounts won't solve your problems as the sofas may still restrict positioning to much + you will loose all the weight and scale your PMC's gave you even though that aspect is working against the room/furniture.
I would get rid of a sofa and change it for a single seat chair-this will be less of an upset to the speakers/acoustic. However nothing between the speakers is a much better solution as an object between the speakers upsets sound staging and imaging imho/e.
Photos will help, get snapping.
Regards D S D L
If it helps, I'll give you two hundred quid for your PMCs. ;)
This is a tricky one, think Neil is right, we need a better understanding of the room layout. Are you adverse to the use of a Sub?
The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2009, 23:44
hows this
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/lounge.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/259e08e8.jpg
scuse the shoddy iphone photo
the sofa can be moved forward to give about a foot of room inbetween sofa and speakers
The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2009, 23:47
... i dont want to dich a sofa they... cost a fortune (more than the speakers did... 2 words ... Next directory)
Spectral Morn
04-11-2009, 23:53
... i dont want to dich a sofa they... cost a fortune (more than the speakers did... 2 words ... Next directory)
You don't need two Sofas in a room that size IMHO. Loose a sofa and your problem is solved. Remove a sofa from the room and try it....I think you will find that the sound is transformed.
Next directory yep dear I know but two sofas is really over kill in my very humble opinion. Replace it with a few Ikea bean bags or fold out directors chairs which you put up when people come round.
Don't kill me Hamish trust your uncle Dalek ;) it will be better.
Edit put the speakers along the wall opposite the bay window it will give you a lot more space around them..than you have in the bay window were they are at the minute.
Regards D S D L
Why can't you put your sofas in a L shape, so that one faces the TV. That leaves the window bay free for speakers. Not enough space?
Can you place the offending sofa along the wall opposite the TV; making a fashionable L-shaped item?
Regards
(P.S. All this hard graft is doing wonders for your spelling! :eyebrows:)
The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2009, 23:59
i could but i wouldnt be able to get in or out of the room... the door to the rest of the house is oposite the porch
Spectral Morn
04-11-2009, 23:59
Can you place the offending sofa along the wall opposite the TV; making a fashionable L-shaped item?
Regards
(P.S. All this hard graft is doing wonders for your spelling! :eyebrows:)
Thats a very good idea Barry and Alb...I suspect there won't be enough room to get through to the sofas....no gap.
What do you think Hamish ? Get the tape measure out....:eyebrows:
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:01
Don't kill me Hamish trust your uncle Dalek ;) it will be better.
Edit put the speakers along the wall opposite the bay window it will give you a lot more space around them..than you have in the bay window were they are at the minute.
Regards D S D L
the scale of my picture doesnt do the rooms small size ... if i put the speakers along the other wall the sofa would block the tv and would only be about a foot from the other!
(I CANT dich a sofa ...)
Spectral Morn
05-11-2009, 00:04
the scale of my picture doesnt do the rooms small size ... if i put the speakers along the other wall the sofa would block the tv and would only be about a foot from the other!
(I CANT dich a sofa ...)
Thats what I thought might be the case. From the picture it looks like a very small room....original position is probably the best compromise.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:04
2 more room views comeing...
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:05
Thats what I thought might be the case. From the picture it looks like a very small room....original position is probably the best compromise.
Regards D S D L
i think you might be right...
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:08
shot of porch / sofa situation
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/ac354dce.jpg
shot of exit to rest of house
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/246c1c41.jpg
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:10
... not much space is there?!?!
just told hannah i might be moving the speakers back.... not, NOT, impressed!
Spectral Morn
05-11-2009, 00:15
Yikessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, its even smaller than I thought.
Even a two seater sofa would be to big for that gap.
Have you thought about putting the L with the TV in the window speakers either side of it and the Sofa 1 in the area where the TV was and Sofa 2 along the wall facing the TV.....sofas probably to big to allow that ?
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
05-11-2009, 00:17
... not much space is there?!?!
just told hannah i might be moving the speakers back.... not, NOT, impressed!
She loves you it will be okay.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:21
..... wall facing the TV.....sofas probably to big to allow that ?
Regards D S D L
yep... we bought the sofas when we were in my old flat with a lack of fore thought!
the hifi was so good in that flat!!!
I was thinking of something similar: put the TV between the speakers and arrange the sofas in a V shape in front of the TV/speakers.
Not sure though if there is room for that, it will also look odd and the space behind the sofas will be inaccessable.
Oh well - just an idea.
Regards
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:29
i think i am just going to have to resign my self to compromise and hope i can find a bigger house!
at least now you have convinced me to keep my treasured pmc's
The Grand Wazoo
05-11-2009, 00:32
Hate to say it - you all tried to save the speakers & quite right, but I think Hamish's idea of smaller speakers would work best.
Get something that'll work up tight to a wall & stick 'em on brackets. If you have to have your trousers flapped, get a subwoofer. That room is way too small for floorstanders & two sofas. Folk's have gotta have some living space! Your knees must be nearly touching if you sit opposite each other on those two sofas - it's a good job you like each other!
Spectral Morn
05-11-2009, 00:32
i think i am just going to have to resign my self to compromise and hope i can find a bigger house!
at least now you have convinced me to keep my treasured pmc's
It would be a big mistake to give them up.
As long as you can live with the compromise until you have a bigger room again.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:36
... i dont have to sell the speakers to afford new ones if i spend a bit less on other upgrades i intend to do! if that opens up this queery a bit more?
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:37
Hate to say it - you all tried to save the speakers & quite right, but I think Hamish's idea of smaller speakers would work best.
any suggestions?
Alright then, £220 for the PMC's, and as I hinted at in post 3, and TGW concurs, a sub could be the answer - get some wall mounted brackets for smaller speakers - if nothing else it will save you the heartache when you have kids of the drivers being poked to death!
The Grand Wazoo
05-11-2009, 00:55
any suggestions?
Sorry, mate, but I haven't got a clue! I've been well out of the game as far as small speakers go for quite a while.
I've got two pairs - both pretty long in the tooth & neither of which cost much at all - old Tannoy Mercury MkII's & some Genexxa Pro LX5's.
I listen to them both a fair bit, though. I've always thought that something bad happened when the wave of cheap floorstanders arrived - there's nothing wrong with a good small speaker. I know the old saying about good big 'uns always beating good little 'uns, but the trouble is that big 'uns are so often not good 'uns! (No slight on your PMC's you understand - it's a dig at little speakers in big boxes)
I bow to almost everyone else's greater knowledge on the stand mount speaker front.
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 00:58
you can take your £220 and shove it in ya bum
no space for sub.. i have a rel quake (the older little one) for films but its not good enought for music.. anything bigger wont fit in the room
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 01:02
anyone think i might get a pair of these for £1k?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FOCAL-JM-LABS-MICRO-UTOPIA-BE_W0QQitemZ290365965020QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Audi oVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers?hash= item439b2902dc
The Grand Wazoo
05-11-2009, 01:03
You missed a trick with Jerry's yellow perils!!
anyone think i might get a pair of these for £1k?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FOCAL-JM-LABS-MICRO-UTOPIA-BE_W0QQitemZ290365965020QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Audi oVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers?hash= item439b2902dc
Probably unlikely, but why not give it a go?
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 01:06
you may well be right..
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 01:07
Probably unlikely, but why not give it a go?
i really like the look of them and the range all seem to review well
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 01:12
AH HA... i just found this
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4304
hes bound to have sold them knowing my bloody luck
Rare Bird
05-11-2009, 01:19
Hamish bonfire night tonight, out the sofa's ..Problem solved..
:lol:
The Vinyl Adventure
05-11-2009, 01:20
... i live by a canal... i dont need bonfire night to dich stuff ;)
Rare Bird
05-11-2009, 01:24
:lolsign:
Peter Galbavy
06-11-2009, 13:07
Sorry, may have missed what's happened since the thread started, but my initial though would be to move the internal sofa 90 degrees to make an L with the soaf in the bay window and put the PMCs on the inside of the hi-fi racks, just next to TV ? Yes, you would have to enter the living area by a gap on the right of the sofa now opposite the TV, but...
PS I have the lower end Focal's and I love them. The alternative at the time was the similarly priced PMCs (2 years ago, not sure which model) but the 816W's won out in the end. Unless you are < 25 I suspect the Be tweeters are going to be overkill :-)
Steve Toy
06-11-2009, 13:24
Standmounters plus stands equals pretty much the same footprint and need for space as floorstanders.
Unless of course you are just going to plonk the speakers on a sideboard or behind the sofa.
I'd be getting a pair of Bose 301s and bolting them to the walls to be honest.
That direct/reflect might be just what you need.
by the way , my father had these speakers stuck on the wall and though imaging isn't their best trait, they do sound great considering their position.
If I were you, I would exchange the position of the whole tv+rack+speakers with your actual "sweet spot sofa".
Like this, you will still have a sweet spot (the other sofa), and nothing in-between.
Just to put a spanner in the works, i once saw a picture of a guy who couldn't do without his ESL 57's so he hung them from the walls/ceiling:mental:
beertime now
beertime now
You're right. Beertime. :cool:
Drink and post and sod the spelling...
Bose 301 Mk IV were really good I thought, much better than the screamers which preceeded them.
Ali Tait
06-11-2009, 19:23
Hamish,consider a pair of WD's kit wd25 speakers.I've heard these and they really are superb,and are designed to work hard up against a wall.Despite being a bookshelf speaker,they have an unfashionably wide baffle to accommodate the large woofer.Good bass from these!
The Vinyl Adventure
06-11-2009, 20:07
I have, I think, decided to not worry about it for now, there is nothing about the room I can change!
Cheers for all the comments and pointers!
Me and hannah have been looking at the sort of house we can afford and I think in the new place it should be better! We have just been looking at one place that would allow 1' behind each speaker, 6' between them, 4' either side and about 6' to perfect listening position....
I'm also more keen on upgrading my amp and have 2 very nice options available to me in the very near future!
Steve Toy
06-11-2009, 20:19
Hamish don't rule one out just yet.
The Vinyl Adventure
06-11-2009, 20:36
.... ....
I have, I think, decided to not worry about it for now
Funny you should say this, I was thinking yesterday that if you are looking at moving, then you are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Given that you've been reasonably happy up until recently, hang on until you know exactly where your own home will be, and what the layout is - when I moved in to my current house, my old speakers had to go straight away (no great shakes, I was glad of the upgrade!) but I guess you don't want to be doing this twice!
....._ _ _ .... __.._
Not fair for those of us who do not know Morse code! :scratch: :eyebrows:
Regards
Stratmangler
06-11-2009, 21:15
Not fair for those of us who do not know Morse code! :scratch: :eyebrows:
Regards
try googling morse code translator.
Chris;)
try googling morse code translator.
Chris;)
Yes I could do that, but why should I have to? :confused:
S'OK, it's not really Morse Code.
Aha, so thats why the translator told me to stop taking the piss.
Morse code translator says "5 _ _ _ h _ _i _"
It's Shippy again, isn't it?!
S'OK, it's not really Morse Code.
Didn't think it was Joe! :lol:
Regards
Morse code translator says "5 _ _ _ h _ _i _"
It's Shippy again, isn't it?!
It's Shippy the Bush Kangaroo!
The Vinyl Adventure
07-11-2009, 16:15
yeah.. i make it "?TTH?" or "?TTHTX" with the translator i found
The Vinyl Adventure
07-11-2009, 16:15
true story it would seem
- .... . / --. .-. .- -. - / -... ..- .. .-.. -.. .. -. --. / .. -. / -.. --- .-- -. - --- .-- -. / .--. .. - - ... -... ..- .-. --. .... / .... .- ... / -... . . -. / ... .--. . .-.. .-.. .. -. --. / --- ..- - / - .... . / -.-. .. - -.-- ... / -. .- -- . / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / ...- .. .- / .- / ..-. .-.. .- ... .... .. -. --. / .-. . -.. / .-.. .. --. .... - / --- -. / - .... . / - --- .--. / --- ..-. / - .... . / ... - .-. ..- -.-. - ..- .-. . / ... .. -. -.-. . / .---- ----. ..--- ----. .-.-.- / . -..- -.-. . .--. - / - .... .- - / .- / .-.. --- -.-. .- .-.. / --. .-. .- -.. / ... - ..- -.. . -. - / .-. . -.-. . -. - .-.. -.-- / -.. . -.-. --- -.. . -.. / - .... . / -- . ... ... .- --. . / - --- / ... .--. . .-.. .-.. / --- ..- - / .--. .. - . - ... -... -.- .-. .-. .... / .. -. ... - . .- -.. .-.-.- / - .... . / -... ..- .. .-.. -.. .. -. --. ... / --- .-- -. . .-. ... / -.. --- -. - / -.- -. --- .-- / .... --- .-- / .-.. --- -. --. / - .... . / -- . ... ... .- --. . / .... .- ... / -... . . -. / ..-. .-.. .- ... .... .. -. --. / .. -. -.-. --- .-. .-. . -.-. - .-.. -.-- / --- .-. / .... --- .-- / .- -. -.. / .-- .... . -. / - .... . / .-.. .. --. .... - ... / -- .. --. .... - / -... . / .-. . ... . - --..-- / -... ..- - / - .... . -.-- .-. . / .- - / .-.. . .- ... - / .- .-- .- .-. . / --- ..-. / - .... . / .--. .-. --- -... .-.. . -- / -. --- .-- .-.-.- / - .... . / -- .. ... - .- -.- . / .-- .- ... / ... .--. --- - - . -.. / -... -.-- / - --- -- / ... - . .--. .-.. . - --- -. --..-- / ..--- ----. --..-- / .-- .... .. .-.. . / .-- .- .. - .. -. --. / - --- / ... . . / - .... . / -.-. .. - -.-- ... / ..-. --- ..- .-. - .... / --- ..-. / .--- ..- .-.. -.-- / ..-. .. .-. . .-- --- .-. -.- ... / ... .... --- .-- .-.-.-
/ ... - ..- -.. . -. - / .-. . -.-. . -. - .-.. -.-- /
I completely agree with that, but I've no idea why you went for the strawberry flavoured one.
Marco.
The lemon bubbles and treacle references got me confused..:scratch:
There should be a spoiler alert!
Sorry, Joe, that one's flown right over my head.... :scratch:
Spoiler alert?
Marco.
The lemon bubbles and treacle references got me confused..:scratch:
:confused::confused: Where did this come from? It's patently obvious that Hamish was saying:
"The Grant Building in downtown Pittsburgh has been spelling out the city's name in Morse code via a flashing red light on the top of the structure since 1929. Except that a local grad student recently decoded the message to spell out Pitetsbkrrh (sic) instead. The building's owners don't know how long the message has been flashing incorrectly, or how and when the lights might be reset, but they're at least aware of the problem now. The mistake was spotted by Tom Stepleton, 29, while waiting to see the city's fourth of July fireworks' show."
Curious that Hamish's spelling is impeccable when spelt out in Morse! :eyebrows:
Regards
The Vinyl Adventure
08-11-2009, 22:22
i can solve that little conudrum for you barry...
i copied and pasted it from somwhere else on the internet into a translator
i suspect everyone else is being a bit silly
Silly on here? Never!
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
08-11-2009, 22:47
... well yeah, i mean, when was the last time you mentioned somthing wierd marco
I should've been locked up some time ago, really.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
08-11-2009, 23:32
... you wont find any arguament here!
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