View Full Version : Tonearms
Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 19:11
ok after selling out to CD quite some time now i impulsivly bought an armless 'STD305' Turntable yesterday.The sell out was for many reasons one being obscure prog albums warrant like a months wages per LP..I'm not dissatisfied with CD but i miss the vinyl hands on experience i'm used to.So i decided to buy a deck..The only albums i'll by though are the more common prog releases from the likes of ELP, YES, Genesis, Floyd etc..Hence i'm not prepared to pay a lot as it's not my main source.
I'm looking for an arm from the 80's period but i'm very fussy about what, modern arms are junk IMHO ie: Rega
old arms then, SME: yes for an engineering standpoint but they sound a bit shitty to me..Trouble being most arms that used to fetch peanuts now hit the roof ie: Syrinx, Alphason etc..
Armboard fitted is no probs to replace.
Possibilities at the mo:
Mayware Formula 4 (Uni)
Mission '774' (Original Bichet design)
Old Helius ok but a bit heath Robinson
!!!!
Anyone.
;)
What about an Alphason, Andre? If you can find one, both the Xenon and HR-100S are excellent and better than 90% of tonearms made today...
I agree with you about Rega arms - they're one of the most overrated pieces of hi-fi equipment ever invented! They're certainly 'adequate', but also deeply unremarkable.
Marco.
What about the mighty Zeta a nice arm but not cheap
Marco really rates the Jelco and has a nice 70s feel to it
Yep, I was going to mention the Jelco, but I don't think Andre likes Jap gear and/or tonearms with detachable headshells ;)
There's the Jelco 250ST, which is a fixed headshell design, and miles better in my opinion than any Rega.
Marco.
pure sound
04-11-2009, 20:20
The original Acos made Rega R200 was a nice sounding arm which turns up fairly often for not too much. Or of course yer actual Acos. The Mayware may limit your cartridge options somewhat.
The Bicht 774 is perhaps the most obvious & affordable choice.
A working Helius Orion 1 is a pretty awesome arm and they didn't generally suffer the stiction problems that some of the other models had. I doubt you'd find a decent one for much less than £250 but if you did it would be better than pretty much anything else mentioned here. Anything with vdH cable attached should ideally be avoided.
Good call with the Helios, Guy :)
However, is it liable to be any better than, say, an HR-100S?
Marco.
pure sound
04-11-2009, 20:41
I've owned an Orion 1 but only the Alphason Xenon although that was rebuilt by AO so probably would be on a par with an HR100S. I like the Alphason alot. It's more explicit than the SMEV but doesn't quite have the authority. It suits some music incredibly well though being capable of great delicacy & precision when called for. The Orion can also do the SME kind of authority & scale but perhaps not with quite the security that the SME has. Many HR100S's and Orions came with the vdH wire so (imho) would need to be rewired. The Orion would certainly suit a substantial deck like the STD really well and is much more correct sounding than something like the Zeta which I always found overblown in the bass. (the Zeta is another arm often ruined by vdH cable!) He had much to answer for.
The early Helius arms at the time were rather "lively" in the manner of the Ittok as I recall, but worse IMO. I'm sure they got better as time went on though..
The STD was a PITA to set up and use, but sounded good. A friend of mine used one with a Hadcock (the one with conventional bearings). I forget the cartridge, but it could have been an Entre.
The Alphasons are wonderful, but have been growing in value for several years now. SME's are great of you use a sympathetic cartridge with black gunk (as supplied by SME) and the damper with shaved paddle running in baby oil. Just don't try to use a Denon 103, OK? ;)
The Rega RB arms are fine to be fair, but need the right turntable to "terminate" the arm's transmission of resonances, and not every deck does this the way the Rega arms prefer, although the latest tri-pod fitting may be better.
How about a Roksan Nima? Not cheap second-hand, but the "mechanics" of the arm should suit the STD alright (Rega fitting IIRC and the deep "well" should take the counterweight ok) and with a neutral cartridge (AT 120e/440MLa/33PTG, Nagaoka??? Denon 304) it should sound fine as long as it's set up properly.
Good points, Guy and Dave. I think that the Hadcock is definitely another valid option. I'm sure that all the suggestions have given Andre much food for thought :)
Many HR100S's and Orions came with the vdH wire so (imho) would need to be rewired. The Orion would certainly suit a substantial deck like the STD really well and is much more correct sounding than something like the Zeta which I always found overblown in the bass. (the Zeta is another arm often ruined by vdH cable!) He had much to answer for.
Agreed on the Zeta. However, not ALL VDH cable is crap. I do think though that their tonearm cable (for some reason) is particularly naff. However, you were listening to a rather fun pair of speakers recently, which were wired internally and externally with the 'offending AJ-designed stuff'! ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 21:11
Keep em comming lads i got lots of responce to make
:lolsign:
I love the Zeta, BUT NOT ON AN STD..................... This deck is a lighter build than the top model Systemdek's and Logic DM101, let alone the heavier built Aristons, TD125's and LP12's IMO.
Use a less "critical-n-fussy" arm (I think the straight-tube Jelco would be perfect and still similar to the model they made in the early eighties IIRC).
A rewire to a Zeta makes a huge difference but no idea what it be like on this deck so Dave is probarly right
Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 22:17
Well the last STD '305' i had was a silver finish with Electronic display (D) this had SME 'IIIS' fitted, i dislike that arm with a passion.
As for other arm. Jap stuff no way :lolsign:
I'm spending no more than £150.00 second hand as it's not my main source, it's just to fill a fettish but i'm still a fussy swine.
Helius 'Orion' is too heavy & too pricey.
'Zeta' the same, most 'Zeta' have iffy bearings anyway as do the Mission 774'SM' (Built by GB Tools the same)
Alphason 'HR100S' is nice but again can have iffy bearings..The 'Xenon' & 'Opal' are nice alternative, i think these had ceramic bearings..Linn cut out would not be a problem. Even though it's criminal even having the thought of a Linn idea anywhere :lolsign:
I love the Mission '774 Original but the aluminium casting is a lot to be desired!
I do love the Mayware 'F4' aswell but as Guy says they are low mass uni's & limited to cartridge even though some of my fave carts suit Low mass arms! (I missed one on e-bay last night)
So the last two low mass designs are possible..
I'm just getting people to awaken my elephantine memory a bit (I'm getting old)
Here's two pics i posted on Vinyl engine of my old Mayware i fully restored, rewired & fitted sonus parts to..
Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 22:33
btw:
there's a Original Mission '774' mounted on a Linda Ronstadt 'LP12' E-bay way tried convincing him the 'LP12' would about fetch the same without the arm but he wasnt having it!
The 774 was roughly finished and not all of them had good bearings. Later ones improved the finish but the wiring to amp will need to be replaced because it's too stiff for suspended decks. Not a problem to do today.
SME III's are fine with high compliance cartridges and with a V15 III SAS or Ortofon Concord "Wand" you'll get a great vintage sound to suit your musical tastes IMO :)
Rare Bird
05-11-2009, 08:42
The 774 was roughly finished and not all of them had good bearings. Later ones improved the finish but the wiring to amp will need to be replaced because it's too stiff for suspended decks. Not a problem to do today.
Aye the wiring was shit, stole it's ground from one of the cartridge tag grounds...The handy thing about this arm was the removable/adjustable wands which makes cartridge mount & azimuth a doggle to set up.Real shame this arm was better presented as it was a great sounding arm...
Beobloke
05-11-2009, 14:22
I can also highly recommend the Audio Technica AT-1130 - a very under-rated arm IMHO. I used one for years on my 301 until upgrading to the HR-100S but I still have it.
Rare Bird
05-11-2009, 15:15
I can also highly recommend the Audio Technica AT-1130 - a very under-rated arm IMHO.
Thanks Adam but no thanks it's Japanese...Yes please to the HR100 tho.. ;)
Beobloke
05-11-2009, 16:09
Thanks Adam but no thanks it's Japanese
Ah, OK. Is this a bad thing then? I never realised...............;)
The day Andre finds out that ELP are (actually) Japanese, it will be Armageddon day... :)
Rare Bird
05-11-2009, 16:45
The day Andre finds out that ELP are (actually) Japanese, it will be Armageddon day... :)
:flasher:
".....Sidney chose a switchblade and Benny got a cold meat pie.
Oh, what a terrible sight
Much to the people's delight
One hell of a fight.................................." :D
Very good Dave! LMAO (no smiley for that!)
".....Sidney chose a switchblade and Benny got a cold meat pie.
Oh, what a terrible sight
Much to the people's delight
One hell of a fight.................................." :D
Please, will people cite the lyrics they quote. I'm guessing it might be ELP but I don't know.
Regards
Sorry Barry - yes, ELP, from Brain Salad Surgery - Benny the Bouncer.
It's definitely not The Fall.
Rare Bird
06-11-2009, 23:48
:lolsign:
It's definitely not The Fall.
Anyhow, great band - The Fall I mean.
Please, will people cite the lyrics they quote. I'm guessing it might be ELP but I don't know.
Regards
Not bad from memory, I dug the CD out after I posted and enjoyed Benny the Bouncer all over again...
continues...
" Sidney grabbed an 'atchet and "buried it" in benny's 'ead,
The people gasped as he bled, THE END OF A TED!
Well, they dragged him from the wreckage of the Palais in bits
They tried to stick together all the bits that would fit.
But "some" of him was missing and "part of" him arrived too late
So now he works for jesus as the bouncer at St Peter's gate (ah)"
Brilliant album, loads of inner-mixing going on and, back on topic, you'll need a pretty decent arm and cartridge combination to really do it justice on LP. A shame that Hadcocks go for such silly money bearing in mind their "tool-shed" build in the early days.
The Grace 707 is still a good arm for well sorted cartridges as long as the bearings don't rattle (misuse by over zealous Linn dealers...) and the hideously over-priced low capacitance exit cables can be reasonably replaced by a US made cable advertised on eBay for £45 or so...
Rare Bird
07-11-2009, 14:25
Thanks guys for all your help but i've decided to dump the vinyl idea, i really can't be bothered with Vinyl again so anyone who wants the STD305 when it arives monday can have it for what i paid, i'll put it in the ads when it comes..
LOL - what are you like!! :mental: :lol:
;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
07-11-2009, 15:17
LOL - what are you like!! :mental: :lol:
;)
Marco.
:mental: Indeed. Hifi is a pain in the asrse for me nowadays..Just so much easier to have a Laptop, outboard HDD & HRT streamer.I just don't have the energy or patience to wait/build on things things.
All you need is love. (and a good alcohol) :artist:
:lolsign:
Rare Bird
10-11-2009, 00:25
The Grace 707 is still a good arm for well sorted cartridges as long as the bearings don't rattle (misuse by over zealous Linn dealers...) and the hideously over-priced low capacitance exit cables can be reasonably replaced by a US made cable advertised on eBay for £45 or so...
Hate the '707' headshell..How much we looking at for a Grace '747' tho?
Nothing much wrong with a G707 headshell guv'nor... 747's barely if ever made it to the UK although I had the unbridled pleasure of a 714 which my manager whipped home pronto. Sounded amazing with the wooden bodied Grado's apparently.
Now I'm confused - what was the difference between the 727 and 747?
I had a 707 mk1 before but sold it to a friend. I still have both the 707 mk2 and 747, I prefer the 747 which has a detachable headshell and is slightly better sounding, the plastic one on the 707 is too flimsy.
I don't have a clue for the difference between the 727 and 747 as well because they look exactly the same in appearence.
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 02:33
There is no difference as far as i'm aware..Thing is you see '747's over here but i've never ever seen a '727' for sale.. '747' were a better arm than the '707'.I ask about pricing for the '747' as it's quite amazing how things like this were quite cheap around ten years ago, now fetch quite nutty prices..The last '707' i had cost me £25 off flea bay, bet your talking around a ton now..
Yes you are. Interesting that many moving coil carts cause less "handling microphonics" than many moving magnets..
According to Vinyl Engine, the 747 had better bearings and a more rigid arm-tube. Is the headshell the same geometry as others of this type?
I shall investigate my 707/SL150 soon, but I'll probably play safe and fit a Supex, as I have the extra counterweight ring it needed..
Haselsh1
11-11-2009, 17:16
Oh dear... another one bites the dust. From 'real' Hi-Fi to convenient Hi-Fi...!!! What a shame.
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 18:16
Real hifi..Um forgot when that last existed
:lol:
Haselsh1
11-11-2009, 22:30
It's very much in existance. You just have to forego the convenience.
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 23:22
Never
Yes you are. Interesting that many moving coil carts cause less "handling microphonics" than many moving magnets..
According to Vinyl Engine, the 747 had better bearings and a more rigid arm-tube. Is the headshell the same geometry as others of this type?
I shall investigate my 707/SL150 soon, but I'll probably play safe and fit a Supex, as I have the extra counterweight ring it needed..
The 747 had a replaceable headshell (that appears to be be a lot more rigid than the horror on the 707). The rest of the 747 is superficially similar to the 707, but the arm lift pad has a wider arc and the bearing caps are different.
Regards
Sorry to keep defending the 707 (I have two after all, I discovered...), but the plastic is rather thick on the headshell and "boxy" in design to keep a fair amount of rigidity. It was designed for CD-4 compatible MM cartridges such as the JVC X1 and similar, so low mass and wide frequency response was judged important. My "other" Grace has the headshell milled out a little for the Asak, which came along around the time of the Mk2 707 (mine were "converted."
As I said, in the UK, the 707 ruled until the dreaded ittok came on the scene and it's bright and breezy balance suited the old fruitbox perfectly, especially when tempered with the Supex 900E cartridge. Still one of the most neutral sounding LP12 combinations IMO.
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