Advice on new power amp [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

sburrell

04-11-2009, 02:54

I've decided the Denon power amp I'm using isn't that great. I'm becoming happier with the speakers since I adopted Mark Grant's interconnect and got myself some speaker stands, so I'm going to keep them a while longer. Can anyone recommend a nice Naim Nait 2-esque power amp I should buy for not much more than £100?

By the way, am I right in thinking all Naim power amps use proprietary connectors and wouldn't work with my Beresford?

Ta chaps. :)

StanleyB

04-11-2009, 07:45

Can anyone recommend a nice Naim Nait-esque power amp I should buy for not much more than £100?

By the way, am I right in thinking all Naim power amps use proprietary connectors and wouldn't work with my Beresford?
If you only got £100 to spend, then the Naim connector issue won't be an issue;).
There is a phono to Naim adapter, which Naim owners have been using to connect the DAC to their NAIM.

The Vinyl Adventure

04-11-2009, 10:49

i have posed a similar question at the end of this thread

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4344&page=3 (stan ?)

stan is right though you are unlikely to find a naim amp for £100! you are also likely to get something a lot better than naim if you dont have much to spend!

Mike Reed

04-11-2009, 17:14

Can anyone recommend a nice Naim Nait-esque power amp

Ta chaps. :)

The Nait's an integrated. Do you mean power amp or integrated amp?

If the latter, for that money a Cyus Two could be found, and improved upon later with the addition of a Cyrus power supply. Great performers, neutral and with excellent manufacturer back-up (in Huntingdon, I believe).

The Vinyl Adventure

04-11-2009, 17:21

Cyrus of course hve the disadvantage of a what hifi following holding the prices up

tubehunter

04-11-2009, 17:34

A&R Cambridge A60 is a very good cheap secondhand buy

sburrell

04-11-2009, 17:53

The Nait's an integrated. Do you mean power amp or integrated amp?

Sorry, when I said "Nait-esque" I was referring to the sound. A Nait 2 was my first amp, and seeing as I'm not liking the Denon I thought, "go back to what you know."

Before the thread gets entirely derailed because of my wee error :doh:, let me just clarify that I am looking for a power amp. It's to be used with the DAC's variable out.

@Tubehunter: Like the wooden veneer on that integrated though! :)

Rare Bird

04-11-2009, 18:28

A&R Cambridge 'SA150' or 'SA200' then if you want a power amp (& with wood)

DSJR

04-11-2009, 21:10

sburrell

05-11-2009, 01:23

The Quad 303's upgradability is certainly a selling point. That's one of the reasons I decided on one of Stan's DACs. Only minor niggle is it uses 4-pin DIN for input, so I'd need an adapter or a new cable, and to be honest, I can't be bothered with the hassle and extra expense. :sorry: However, on my interweb travels I did notice that some people have modded theirs to RCAs, so I'll keep my eyes out for such a one.

A quick look through some of the used stock at various hifi stores did turn up a few A&R Cambridge SA150s and SA200s, but they were all sold. I think the price was right though. I'll just have to try and get in there sharpish, keep my eyes peeled.

Tomorrow I'll nip into Retro Reproduction and see what he can offer me, and if nobody minds I'll list them here and ask for opinions? Ta chaps. :)

The Vinyl Adventure

05-11-2009, 01:30

i shouldnt let conectivity put you off with companies like mark grant (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/) and flashback (http://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/) around
mark has been very helpfull this past week for me

sburrell

05-11-2009, 01:36

Unfortunately Flashback's cable would set me back £26, and whilst I can't find such a cable on Mark Grant's website, I'm sure his custom jobbies would be about the same. Frankly, I'd rather just spend the extra £25 on a better power amp :)
Good to have that link to Flashback though. I'll keep that one for future ref.

Rare Bird

05-11-2009, 01:48

You don't see them very often, but the A&R power amps listed above are like bigger and more "solid" sounding A60's. Their Myryad descendants would be a lot more expensive though. Even a valve classic like a Rogers Cadet III now fetches nigh on £200..

Quad 303? Easily serviced and with loads of update capability with improved difficult load drive and higher current output possible when fully sretched, the capacitor coupling gives a looser and slightly "plumper" feel to many of the directly coupled tranny amps I've heard by comparison. The only shortcoming at the end of it's life was that the design was optimised for speakers dipping no lower than 6 Ohms - I understand that Tannoys from the late sixties-early seventies were nominally 11 Ohms..

The A&R SA150/200 & Quad 303 had something in common being that they were both let down by the partnering Pre amps..The A&R 'C200' Pre was rubbish.

About this time i like the old Quantum Electronics power amps, plain boxed looked nothing, klike skinny old Exposure shape but sounded nice..The production models anyway.. '207DA' Stereo & '205' Mono's were best.. again let down by the '102' pre amp, but at least a matching '402' PSU..They were kinda in the Naim half width/full width type of arrangement..

sburrell

05-11-2009, 11:37

What's a Quad 306 worth? I'm considering bidding for one that ends in 9 hours. Just as good as a 303, or better?

Rare Bird

05-11-2009, 11:41

What's a Quad 306 worth? I'm considering bidding for one that ends in 9 hours. Just as good as a 303, or better?

Yeh not bad about 150.00-200.00..One of the newer breeds of Quad.I prefer the '303'..Bear in mind the '306' has an on/off power button the '303' don't, also '303' has 4 pin din for interconnection the '306' RCA Phono's

sburrell

05-11-2009, 15:12

Got in touch with Retro Reproduction, and all he could offer was an Arcam Alpha 8P @ £145. Maybe I could get it down to £120ish by part-exchanging my Denon, which he sold me originally. Opinions?

Concerto Audio

05-11-2009, 15:51

Hi
Cyrus amps...I won't touch it, it is my opinion and I do not want to be rude.
Once upon a time I read a good review about Cyrus VS integrated amp and I bought it. I surely wasted my money on that and a power supply. It can never run loud and it clips at high peaks (for eg if you are playing Pink Floyd -The Wall track). It is not worth the money. Finally I managed to sell it off!
:doh:

Rare Bird

05-11-2009, 15:59

I hear you i've had two Cyrus amps & hated both..Why ever i bought the second i don't remember. Equally as bad are Arcam amps, they are so poor compared to the past A&R cambridge units.

Themis

05-11-2009, 16:06

I've had two Cyrus (a two and my actual 8xp) and never had the problems you seem to describe... :)
(by the way, the model two is still working after 25 years - never sent to service)

sburrell

05-11-2009, 18:26

Well, I've just put down a max bid of £100 for an Arcam Alpha 8 & 8P combo in VGC with remote. Snowball's chance in Hell of getting them, but what the heck! :)

DSJR

05-11-2009, 21:54

Just take care with cable choice. This combo can sound a little tense and hard and "raw" if you get it wrong. Bi-amping helps these two well IMO...

P.S. The 306 ain't a 303, nor is it a scaled down 405-2 either IMO. Obviously never listened to on anything other than simple acoustic music as it doesn't "do" percussion very well I found.

sburrell

08-11-2009, 01:52

Got outbid on the Arcam 8/8P combo - no surprises there.

A&R Cambridge A60 is a very good cheap secondhand buy
One's just turned up on eBay, item #230393295216. What's the max I should bid? Ends today (Sunday) at 7.40pm.

Rare Bird

08-11-2009, 06:24

Thought you wanted a power amp Si? Those A60's go for peanuts usually but that is a very nice example which may drag the bidding up a tad, i'd say 80 quid max due to this but i'd say a bit excessive usually 30-50, bid as high as you can afford..Looks like an early example with discrete phonostage, the later ones had NE5532 IC's if i remember, good replacement for those were the Analogue devices AD712JN..If you win i recon those PSU caps need changing...If it is an old one they were 6,800uF, change em for 10,000uF..

sastusbulbas

08-11-2009, 08:28

I personally don't see any need to just limit yourself to a power amp just because your DAC has a volume control, but an alternative to getting something from Graham at Retro would be an Alesis RA 150 or 300 or 500 or a Behringer A500.

usually under £150 retail, and cheap on eBay.

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/product/6383-behringer-reference-amplifier-a500.html

Rare Bird

08-11-2009, 11:53

DSJR

08-11-2009, 12:11

Rob Holt has written a great piece in the PF reference section regarding re-juvenating an A60. the later ones had a bit more "grip" on the phono input and a tauter feel all round, without destroying the early model's musicality.. They're a PITA to take apart for service apparently, but do it right and you'll have a bargain for well under a ton (prices creeping up though I think).

The Creek 4140 weren't bad either and clearer IMO than the 4040 which is very popular. the 4140 under-cut the A60 by around £50 and it's this that helped turn the A60 into the "solid-state sounding" Delta 60, which needs beefy sounding wires to sound "right." (Arcam imported Audioquest back then).

sburrell

08-11-2009, 23:24

The A&R A60 went for £93 + £12.50. I didn't bother bidding, as I wasn't convinced the value-for-money was there in this instance.

Thought you wanted a power amp Si?
Yeah, I know, but I thought I'd keep my options open. Besides, I respect the opinions I get on this forum, and figured that seeing as no-one brought up any objections to the A60 I'd keep my eyes open. :)

I personally don't see any need to just limit yourself to a power amp just because your DAC has a volume control
I think I was just trying to get more bang for my buck---I thought I'd get a better system overall by not wasting money on unnecessary pre-amp controls etc. included on an integrated, not to mention a cleaner signal path.

The Creek 4140 weren't bad either and clearer IMO than the 4040 which is very popular.
Ah, Creek. Always liked the look of them. Never heard one though. I'll add that to my list of options. But did they do a power amp?

Rare Bird

09-11-2009, 01:11

How insaine is £93.00 you did right not bidding, nrver seen one go for that before especially an old one..

DSJR

09-11-2009, 09:37

The more the likes of us/me keep banging on about the A60, the higher the selling price will be...

Just get a Quad 303 and fit new supply and output caps to it at least. As long as the speakers' impedance doesn't dip too severely, you'll get a great musical sound that'll still hold its own and if the physical condition is good and you do nothing else, the amp will hold it's value well. Interconnects to it can be got for not much money too.

Macca

09-11-2009, 21:03

How insaine is £93.00 you did right not bidding, nrver seen one go for that before especially an old one..

I loved the A60 - and for a clean, little used example £100 and change is pretty fair IMO. What could you buy new for the same money that could even touch it?

Ali Tait

09-11-2009, 21:21

Wooden-sleeve Sugden A21.:)

sburrell

10-11-2009, 21:42

Woops, well, a bargain appeared today on Gumtree in the form of a pair of Sorrento (light-beige) B&W DM601 S3s. I managed to snap them up for £75, including two four-metre+ lengths of terminated Van Den Hul speaker cable, marked "M.C. CS 122 HYBRID >Halogen Free<". One tweeter has a slight ding, and there's a crack in the top of the bezel of the other speaker, but otherwise in great condition (apart from needing a good clean).
So, I'll put the amp on hold until the New Year, and use what cash I have left for the Christmas pressies. Thanks to everyone for their advice! :)
PS: Anyone point me to a tutorial on safely removing that ding? I believe it's something to do with sellotape, or some kind of sucking implement…

Alex_UK

10-11-2009, 23:17

PS: Anyone point me to a tutorial on safely removing that ding? I believe it's something to do with sellotape, or some kind of sucking implement…

Try a drinking straw and your mouth as the "sucking implement!"

The Vinyl Adventure

10-11-2009, 23:36

Sometimes some very gentle kneading of the dome can work, although proceed with caution! I had a very dented dust cap on one of my little dynaudios slight presure to the rim of the dent fixed it with a pop! I do take no resposibilty for any action you might tak on this though :)
the best way to fix the cones dented by childeren in the shop is, well... Ring monitor audio and tell them to send me a replacment cone... They, for the most part, happily agree to!

sburrell

22-11-2009, 18:44

Hi,

Well, I couldn't resist further peeks at eBay for a power amp. And, as I've come into a wee bitty of extra casharoonie, I've decided I may raise my budget slightly. What's really drawing my attention is this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Naim-Nap-90-3-Power-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ330378843173QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers?has h=item4cec1d1425#ht_500wt_924) item on eBay. It's actually a relisting because no-one wanted it the first time round. I emailed him after the original auction ended and offered my budget, £100 + shipping, and he said he'd accept £130 plus postage. No-one took him up on the offer (there were apparently a couple of others, with their highest offer being £120 + shipping).
Is there any non-financial reason I shouldn't just go for it? Is £165 a good price for this? I can't really find much info on the 90/3 on the web, other than it is a typical Naim with all the associated positive characteristics.

Ta muchly fellas. :)

EDIT: Oh and it turns out the tweeter on the 601 S3s is aluminium and no amount of sucking will bring it back to good-as-new condition, though it'll still help. A replacement somewhere down the line may eventually be in order.

Stratmangler

22-11-2009, 19:06

Phone B&W spares - they're very helpful and very prompt - you should be able to get just the tweeter diaphragm (I could for my DM601 - original model).

There is no way you'll manage to work out the ding properly.

Chris:)

Marco

22-11-2009, 19:10

Sometimes some very gentle kneading of the dome can work, although proceed with caution!

Indeed - and I told her that last night, too!! :eyebrows:

:flasher:

Marco.

sburrell

22-11-2009, 19:58

Haha. I'm surprised you didn't also comment on the, "no amount of sucking will bring it back to good-as-new condition, though it'll still help." Or would that have been too crass? ;)

The Vinyl Adventure

22-11-2009, 20:03

im not sure marco understands the concept of "too crass"

Marco

23-11-2009, 16:37

LOL! You wanna hear some of the stuff that gets discussed when I have the lads round for a sesh... :eek: :eyebrows:

Only the truly warped and deranged need apply! :trust:

Marco.

DSJR

23-11-2009, 16:49

Dented metal domes are a definite no-no as the metal is little thicker than foil and cannot be re-formed like a doped cloth. S3 600's have a vicious treble spit when new, so I'd get a new pair of modules for the tweeters.

sburrell

23-11-2009, 21:27

S3 600's have a vicious treble spit when new, so I'd get a new pair of modules for the tweeters.
Just to clarify: is the emphasis above on buying a new pair, ie. replace both speakers' domes for reasons of matching or some such; or on modules - which I'm not sure of the meaning of. Is that the same as saying "tweeter diaphragm", as Stratmangler put it? Sorry, my lack of technical knowledge letting me down here. I take it I'm basically being advised to replace the aluminium dome that I see, and not the whole tweeter assembly including drive units, right? :scratch:

The Vinyl Adventure

24-11-2009, 01:22

LOL! You wanna hear some of the stuff that gets discussed when I have the lads round for a sesh... :eek: :eyebrows:

Only the truly warped and deranged need apply! :trust:

Marco.

What an odd pride you take in your vulgarity marco! ;) ... I guess we all gotta have a hobby :lolsign:

Marco

24-11-2009, 01:37

LOL... I'm just being honest!

I have a daft big nut full of nonsense (I haven't really grown up yet), and most of my friends seem to share my warped sense of humour, or end up 'infected' by it :lol:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure

24-11-2009, 01:52

Do you all stay together in a place where strange people in matching pyjamas come and give you funny tasting sweets in little plastic cups that when taken make you feel oddly calm?? ;)

Marco

24-11-2009, 08:21

Yesh, it's called North Wales.... :lolsign:

Marco.

sburrell

26-11-2009, 21:24

Crumbs, on the spur of the moment I put in a bid for an amp on eBay that had 4mins to go, and just bought myself a Creek CAS 4040 for £54. This one here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190351028760&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1182). Collect it tomorrow evening.

DSJR

26-11-2009, 21:38

4040 great and still cheap to buy on fleabay..

What I meant about tweeter "modules" is the dome and coil assembly, which fits between the magnet and front trim/fixing. This is often a lot cheaper than replacing the whole tweeter and many tweeters can be serviced this way (even the Celestion unit in my Spendors can still be serviced this way). The 600 series 3 did have a sting up top, but if it's anything like the mk1 600 unit, this will tame down as usage grows, thus my recommendation to buy a new pair of units/modules to match them up.

Stratmangler

26-11-2009, 21:45

Just to clarify: is the emphasis above on buying a new pair, ie. replace both speakers' domes for reasons of matching or some such; or on modules - which I'm not sure of the meaning of. Is that the same as saying "tweeter diaphragm", as Stratmangler put it? Sorry, my lack of technical knowledge letting me down here. I take it I'm basically being advised to replace the aluminium dome that I see, and not the whole tweeter assembly including drive units, right? :scratch:

It should be possible to change just the domes (diaphragms). This will cost less than replacing the entire tweeter unit. This also means that you retain the mechanically run in motor section of the tweeter (no running in required).

Best thing to do is contact B&W and they can properly advise you.

B&W Group Ltd - UK Sales Enquiries & Technical Support
Dale Road
Worthing, West Sussex
BN11 2BH
Tel: Sales 01903 221500 / Switchboard 221800
Fax: 01903 221501
Email: uksales@bwgroup.com
Web: http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk

Chris:)

DSJR

26-11-2009, 21:57

The domes usually come ready bonded to the coils and this is fitted to a former, hence the term "module." The replacement Vifa unit as fitted to my ATC's was a triangular affair with the terminals on two of the "corners" and the dome/coil mounted within this "frame."

sburrell

26-11-2009, 22:39

Hi,

I actually got in touch with B&W a couple of days ago, spoke to a very nice chap. I explained I had a ding in the dome and he recommended a replacement at a cost of just shy of £25 inc. P&P and comprehensive layman-termed instructions. Pretty darn reasonable, acsh. I'll ca'canny* just now, and invest at a later date, as I'm not sure there's any audible reason to replace it just now. Oh, and he recommended just to replace the one, and just leave it to run in for a few hours, and it'd soon match the other.

Ta for all the info, everybody! (In the voice of Dr. Nick from "The Simpsons")
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-m4hga3mUhY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-m4hga3mUhY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

*Ca'Canny - Auld Scots: To make a wise decision. Often synonymous with "Hold your horses."

sburrell

27-11-2009, 23:02

Well I owe everyone another big Thank You. This Creek 4040 is excellent. I've only listened to my reference tracks, but I've heard enough to know there's a definite improvement. The bass is oh-so-low and tight, and I've recovered some of the coveted mid-range I lost when I swapped out my Diamond Pros. It's a lot more detailed than the Denon, revealing the age of the audio track on my Spartacus remaster DVD.
Unfortunately, I thought the seller was providing a DIN-RCA adapter, but in fact it was a cable so skanky I've got it an appointment on The Ricky Lake Show. It does the biz, but I'm looking forward to sourcing a reasonable adapter so I can go back to the Mark Grant cable. I can't imagine how good this'll all sound then.
So, as with the StanDAC, so with the Creek. I have stood on the shoulders of giants and achieved greatness!
Or simply: ta!