View Full Version : New Mark Grant G1000HD Precision cables
I've taken delivery of these cables and have been assessing and comparing them for the last few days to Mark's standard £20 Canares. The G1000HDs are shown here:
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43_1
And here:
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43_1&products_id=165
These new cables of Mark's are absolutely stunning (in the right system) and, IMO, set a new benchmark for what is capable with high quality copper-based cables...... The G1000HDs, quite simply, offer truly outstanding value for money!
Look out for a full review soon in S.O.G :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Are these the same cables that were used in JJ's cable test on Saturday?
Will you be giving us your thoughts on the cable testing session? I, and I'm sure JJ as well, would be interested in your views.
Cheers
I, and I'm sure JJ as well, would be interested in your views.
Not to mention everyone else on AoS! ;)
Hi Barry,
Yes they're the same ones :)
I'll be posting my thoughts on JJ's cable testing session tomorrow.
What I'm stating here though basically (and I will go into more detail in my review in S.O.G) is that the G1000HDs are markedly superior to the standard Canare type Mark sells for £20, and so are well worth the extra cost!
Rarely have I heard such a fundamental no-brainer upgrade from cables...
Marco.
now he tells me, just after I've "blown" £20 on the standard fair! ;)
Well, it's only money, and the top of the range cable in most line-ups is considerably more expensive!
The standard ones are superb, Alex.
However in a very revealing, synergistically-matched system, the G1000HDs come into their own in terms of sheer resolution, vanishingly low-noise, complete lack of detactable sonic signature and/or grain, and incredible musical insight into all recordings.
More later in the dedicated review! :)
Marco.
StanleyB
04-11-2009, 06:41
The standard ones are superb, Alex.
However in a very revealing, synergistically-matched system, the G1000HDs come into their own in terms of sheer resolution, vanishingly low-noise, complete lack of detactable sonic signature and/or grain, and incredible musical insight into all recordings.
I tend to find that a disadvantage of the product, rather than an improvement.
The noise and graininess comes from the preceding source. In some equipment designs a resistor of 100 ohms or so is inserted in line with the audio signal in order to combat any oscillations etc in the signal transmission path. However, that resistance of 100 ohms also lowers the noise floor and makes it more difficult to detect any grain. This in turn creates a darker signal, and takes away some of the soundstage and ambiance.
Coming back to a cable with such properties, if a cable with such properties is inserted in the path of a source with similar properties, the end result is a very dark output and almost washed out signal in the low dB range.
Hi Stan,
The noise and graininess comes from the preceding source.
In some cases, yes; but in others noise and graininess are generated by the material properties and/or construction of the cable. I have heard this effect numerous times in inferior cables.
Everything from equipment to cables, to loudspeakers, imposes its own sonic signature, or 'character', on music reproduced by a hi-fi system. I prefer all examples of such to impart the least 'sound' as possible of their own on the recording/source signal. That, after all, is what hi-fi is about.
As far as cables are concerned, the Mark Grant G1000HDs do that job admirably - indeed they are amongst the best I've used in that respect :)
One must remember that in reality there is no such thing as a 'good' cable; merely ones which are 'less bad'.
Marco.
I've had two pairs of G1000HD cables since last Saturday.
I will wait 'till I get a Croft pre (in a week or two) to thoroughly test the cables and give a more accurate impression.
At first test (last weekend) what I can say is : these are the most natural cables I've listened to, in the mid (low-mid and high-mid) frequencies. Voices and natural (especially wood) instruments are exceptional.
But, of course, this was only the first test, and I'm very fussy with testing interconnects : I like having precise opinions on cables as there's too much hype involved. So, a first impression is always a good point, but a thorough A/B test (blind) is still better.
Steve Toy
04-11-2009, 11:53
Over the standard £20 interconnects these G1000HDs remove even more background hash that adds distortion and brightness to the upper registers. The result of such removal is even more precise imaging and better resolution of harmonic detail and decay of notes into space.
Voices in particular gain more presence and subtle vocal inflections are more easily heard.
Stratmangler
04-11-2009, 12:10
Are the G1000HDs a pseudo balanced construction ?
Chris:)
Dave Cawley
04-11-2009, 12:19
Are the G1000HDs a pseudo balanced construction ?
No, but they are doubled screened, so all that inaudible stuff in the air gets shut out, this reduces the susceptibility of intermod and can often give a clearer sound. Coincidently I'm make a set for a customer, but using way more expensive connectors. Although potentially I'm a competitor, Mark Grant is one of the honest cable manufacturers out there!
Regards
Dave
Stratmangler
04-11-2009, 12:26
No, but they are doubled screened, so all that inaudible stuff in the air gets shut out, this reduces the susceptibility of intermod and can often give a clearer sound. Coincidently I'm make a set for a customer, but using way more expensive connectors. Although potentially I'm a competitor, Mark Grant is one of the honest cable manufacturers out there!
Regards
Dave
Thanks Dave. I spotted the braided screen, so I thought that there would be superior RF rejection and what have you taking place.
Chris:)
Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 12:33
Marco: when you recommend Mark Grant interconnects, which cables do you recommend as i noticed Canare! now Canare are another companies product??
Hi Andre,
Canare/Belden I believe supply the cable and connectors (as they do in many well-known 'high-end' cable manufacturer's products), but the G1000HDs are branded as Mark's own design, and he's paid for the privilege :)
What's interesting is that I've bought the exact same interconnects (the £20 ones Mark sells, not the G1000HDs) from Blue Jeans in America, where I first discovered Belden cables (see here: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm), and yet the ones Mark sells on his site for £20 sound much better!
This for me proves that much of the performance of a good cable (read as: transparent as possible) is down to how carefully all the component parts are assembled. I think that Mark's got this down to a fine art, and sonically it shows.
Coincidently I'm make a set for a customer, but using way more expensive connectors.
Fair enough, Dave - but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll sound any better. For example, I don't think that WBTs are worth the money. They're good, but in many ways unnecessarily over-engineered. Sometimes 'flashy' connectors are just an excuse to justify expensive cable products, or pander to the sensibilities of badge-snob audiophiles ;)
This is why I (and AoS) love 'honest' products like those of Mark Grant, as they cut through the bullshit so that you only pay for what really matters.
Marco.
Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 13:00
Thanks for clearing that up..All my mains cables are actually sheilded Belden/wattgate/MK 'Toughplug' & i'm very happy with em..
Dave Cawley
04-11-2009, 13:08
Hi Marco
They are not WBT, or flashy, you really should know me better that that! Engineering and quality costs money, and in this case the customer is more than happy to pay over 3 times the price for a marginal improvement. I'm not looking for approval or endorsement, just agreeing with Mark Grant that the use of double screened cable is often advantageous.
Regards
Dave
Dave, I wasn't referring specifically to anything you've made, but rather that expensive connectors are often not much more than 'audiophile jewellery'.
A valid case in point, matey:
and in this case the customer is more than happy to pay over 3 times the price for a marginal improvement.
I certainly wouldn't be, but good luck to him or her. I completely agree that engineering and quality costs money, but I'll only pay for it when it directly translates into seriously improved performance, not merely a marginal improvement.
Otherwise, what's the point? :)
SPPV comes first and foremost - always!
Marco.
Dave Cawley
04-11-2009, 15:28
SPPV comes first and foremost - always!
In your view, but other have a right to feel differently. For a wealthy person it really doesn't matter! If you compare my cable at 3 times the price of Mark's with the £12K Nordost, then I win!
But Marco, let other people enjoy the music!!
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave,
SPPV comes first and foremost - always!
In your view, but other have a right to feel differently.
Of course - I have no problem with that :)
For a wealthy person it really doesn't matter!
Well, most wealthy people I know stay that way from being as tight as a gnat's arse! ;)
So..... I'd feel confident that if it were demonstrated to them that 'Cable A' with shiny 'fancy-dancy' connectors (at three times the price) was only marginally better than 'Cable B', which featured 'more than adequate' high quality connectors, they'd go with the latter option because in general wealthy people don't give their money away very easily.
It's the fact they mistakenly believe that the 'fancy-dancy' connectors make a huge difference (by being brainwashed through marketing hype or pseudo science) that generally justifies the cost for them. Remove that notion from the equation and watch how quickly they change their minds!
I think you misunderstand why I'm into SPPV, Dave. It's not because I can't afford to buy pretty much what I want when it comes to hi-fi (trust me I can) - it's because I like to be a bit cleverer about how and where I spend my money. I just resent paying over the odds when it's not really necessary.
I can assure you that my principles wouldn't change even if I were a multi-millionaire. I would still scrutinise everything to the nth degree and seek maximum sonic/musical return on any hi-fi investment I make. Gauche and rather vulgar footballer's wives, etc, may be different - and of course good luck to them.
If you compare my cable at 3 times the price of Mark's with the £12K Nordost, then I win!
LOL- indeed! But let's face it, only a total cock jockey would spend £12k on a cable :mental:
Perhaps what we should do then is conduct a head-to-head comparison between your cable and Mark's? I'd be more than happy to perform such a test and report the outcome. I will simply tell it how I hear it. If some of your target customers are here on AoS, then I'm sure they would find the result most interesting.
But Marco, let other people enjoy the music!!
My expressing my opinion is not stopping anyone from enjoying their music.
Marco.
Back in my old ATC 100A's days, I used an RS brown coloured traditional mic cable with fairly chunky conductors (red and black colour) and a double opposed-spiral wrapped screen. I though they sounded very smooth and, if anything, warm toned, but in alternative systems, they sounded thick and squidgey - a bit like the Linn "Silver" interconnects. The Belden I use, uses a woven screen which seems ok and with no hum or "mush" at all...
I'd like to try these new cables though. is there a price indicated anywhere?
Thanks :)
£75 for a metre pair, Dave. Trust me, they put to shame many cables at ten times the price :)
Marco.
I noticed Canare LV61S seems to be stranded center core where as the G1000HD is solid core, I've always liked solid core IC cables better than stranded
Also the Canare LV61S dielectric is Polyethylene and looks to be solid, normally air spaced sounds better in my opinion, the G1000HD is rated to be gas injected dielectric
It all makes a difference:)
Thanks Marco. I've some valves to purchase first though ;)
I noticed Canare LV61S seems to be stranded center core where as the G1000HD is solid core, I've always liked solid core IC cables better than stranded
Also the Canare LV61S dielectric is Polyethylene and looks to be solid, normally air spaced sounds better in my opinion, the G1000HD is rated to be gas injected dielectric
It all makes a difference:)
On a very humble level, RS used to do an RF cable with solid copper core, PTFE (I think) dielectric, a carbon and copper weave screen at 75 Ohms IIRC. They were very good in a bright-n-breezy kind of way.
Interesting your comments on Blue-Jeans cables. I bought some XLR leads (Belden) from them and they sounded extremely "soft" in comparison with the ATC supplied 8760 cable which I made up myself.
Hi Leo,
I completely agree - everything matters!
Dave,
Interesting your comments on Blue-Jeans cables. I bought some XLR leads (Belden) from them and they sounded extremely "soft" in comparison with the ATC supplied 8760 cable which I made up myself.
It was me who mentioned Blue Jeans.
I however concur with your observation. The LC-1 cables Blue Jeans sell possessed exactly the qualities you describe in comparison to the equivalent Mark Grants.
It's like the old saying goes... It's not what you've got, but how you use it! ;)
Marco.
On a very humble level, RS used to do an RF cable with solid copper core, PTFE (I think) dielectric, a carbon and copper weave screen at 75 Ohms IIRC. They were very good in a bright-n-breezy kind of way.
Interesting your comments on Blue-Jeans cables. I bought some XLR leads (Belden) from them and they sounded extremely "soft" in comparison with the ATC supplied 8760 cable which I made up myself.
I'd be very surprised if the dielectric was PTFE , it doesn't go well with copper which is why most PTFE based cables are silver based
BTW can't stand Silver cable especially plaited
Anyway sorry about the thread drift, nice review Marco, the Mark Grants look a no nonsense well priced cable which I much prefer over the stupid priced BS often floating about
Rare Bird
04-11-2009, 17:37
This sounds good. I'm willing to give three stereo runs of 'G1000HD' a go soon as i've got this power amp sorted..
If there no good a turd in a box is coming through the post marco :lol:
Na joking aside i'm sure they sound nice.
Haha... I'm quite partial to the sniff of a fruity wee jobby! :lolsign:
Marco.
Incidentally, as some of you may know, I use Van Den Hul 'The Wind' speaker cable. It is superb and matches really well with my Tannoys.
Strangely, I found that the Belden speaker cable either Mark Grant or Blue Jeans sell isn't as good as the Belden-derived stereo interconnects or digital cable, hence why I bought the VDH.
I also prefer single conductor speaker cables (in effect, there is a dedicated conductor for both the positive and negative inputs of each speaker), as I generally find that they offer superior performance.
To continue the VDH cable loom, I have ordered one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.nl/NEW-VAN-DEN-HUL-DIGICOUPLER-SPDIF-DIGITAL-INTERLINK_W0QQitemZ370259346430QQihZ024QQcategoryZ 8322QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m444QQ_trkparmsZ algo%3DCRX%26its%3DC%252BS%26itu%3DSI%252BUA%252BL M%252BLA%26otn%3D10%26ps%3D63
...which I obtained for just over £90 including shipping from Holland. Strangely, only the optical version is available in the UK :scratch:
I intend to compare it to the Mark Grant (Belden-derived) 1694A I currently use, which is priced at £13, and outperformed a Transparent Reference digital cable I was using before costing £600.
I have a feeling that the VDH Digi-Coupler will be excellent (call it intuition!), so the comparison should prove interesting. I'll report the results I obtain here on a separate thread :)
Marco.
P.S It should be noted that I only rate certain cables within the VDH range. I find their designs rather inconsistent - they're either excellent or crap (rather soft sounding), which is quite frustrating!
I have a feeling that the VDH Digi-coupler will be excellent (call it intuition!), so the comparison should prove interesting. I'll report the results I obtain here on a separate thread :)
Marco.
Right, is someone keeping a list of these reviews Marco has promised us?
Right, is someone keeping a list of these reviews Marco has promised us?
I ran out of A3 paper, sorry. :eyebrows:
Are you sure it wasn't A1? ;)
Marco.
He's too busy listening to music and working for a living I reckon....:lol: it's the rest of us (speaking for myself) that have too much time on our hands.
He's too busy listening to music and working for a living I reckon....:lol: it's the rest of us (speaking for myself) that have too much time on our hands.
Nah, he's just slacking. He's got plenty of time to post on the 'three words' thread.
Please direct all complaints to my secretary.
Marco.
Please direct all complaints to my secretary.
Dear Marco's secretary,
we are expecting a nice review of the VDH Digi-Coupler by Marco. Unfortunately, he considers he doesn't have much time, while -it seems- you should have more time than him to register our complaints.
So, please, be kind to register my complain about the abnormal delay of this review along with all the other reviews. If you need a complete list of the delayed reviews, I've a (heavily compressed) word document of 56GB, that I was obliged to split into 56 different word documents (of 1GB each) because of a software limitation on my Windows 95 version.
Thank you for your help,
Best regards
Dimitri
anthonyTD
05-11-2009, 09:24
I noticed Canare LV61S seems to be stranded center core where as the G1000HD is solid core,
I've always liked solid core IC cables better than stranded
Also the Canare LV61S dielectric is Polyethylene and looks to be solid, normally air spaced sounds better in my opinion, the G1000HD is rated to be gas injected dielectric
It all makes a difference:)
quite agree!:)
A...
StanleyB
05-11-2009, 10:07
Perhaps you guys giving Marco some incorrect items to review:scratch:. One can't review petrol performane in a diesel car ater all.
Spectral Morn
05-11-2009, 10:41
Dear Marco's secretary,
we are expecting a nice review of the VDH Digi-Coupler by Marco. Unfortunately, he considers he doesn't have much time, while -it seems- you should have more time than him to register our complaints.
So, please, be kind to register my complain about the abnormal delay of this review along with all the other reviews. If you need a complete list of the delayed reviews, I've a (heavily compressed) word document of 56GB, that I was obliged to split into 56 different word documents (of 1GB each) because of a software limitation on my Windows 95 version.
Thank you for your help,
Best regards
Dimitri
You forgot to add the write up of the recent hi-fi show he promised.....then theres the reply to a post I made last year which he said he would reply to but didn't.......:scratch: Oh yes the joint story we started to write........;):lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:.
Regards D S D L
Indeed. I fear though that I may have to sack my secretary, as she's becoming very lazy.
Yesterday, she came running in to me and asked: "Can I use your dictophone?"
I had to tell her to use her bloody hands like everyone else.
Marco.
twelvebears
05-11-2009, 13:05
Indeed. I fear though that I may have to sack my secretary, as she's becoming very lazy.
Yesterday, she came running in to me and asked: "Can I use your dictophone?"
I had to tell her to use her bloody hands like everyone else.
Marco.
A friend of mine once manage to drop that joke into conversation.
Unfortunately for him, he was standing next to me at the time......
anthonyTD
05-11-2009, 13:25
A friend of mine once manage to drop that joke into conversation.
Unfortunately for him, he was standing next to me at the time......
:)
jandl100
09-11-2009, 10:58
Over the standard £20 interconnects these G1000HDs remove even more background hash that adds distortion and brightness to the upper registers.
Hah! I've been saying all along that the 'standard' MG cables are a bit bright and grainy. ;)
Now you realise it's true! :smoking:
LOL - Jerry, that's not quite what Steve is saying... Read it more carefully, dude.
What he means is that the G1000HDs remove more background hash than the previous cables did, and that this hash can add brightness and distortion - not that the standard Mark Grant cables are intrinsically bright sounding.
It's the hash (RFI/EMI-induced) present in the system which is causing the perceived brightness/distortion, not the cables themselves.
I trust that you can appreciate the difference :)
The new cables to Steve's ears and mine are definitely 'quieter' than the standard versions (i.e. they filter out more noise, probably due to extra shielding and tighter control of the assembly of their component parts), which likely explains their improved performance over MG's standard cables.
Marco.
jandl100
09-11-2009, 11:21
I trust that you can appreciate the difference :)
Tee Hee - I wondered what convoluted excuses you'd come up with. :lol:
Nope - I reckon I heard it right all along. :eyebrows:
It's the sound that comes out of the speakers that matters - you can rationalise about the reasons for that 'til the cows come home ... Mooooooo :lolsign:
LOL, it's not an excuse Jerry. It's a perfectly feasible explanation :)
The sound that comes out of the speakers is the culmination of a number of factors, not just what the cables are doing.
YMMV, of course.
Marco.
Steve Toy
09-11-2009, 12:31
Jerry it is all relative. I have heard brighter cables. I have also heard darker ones and those with a distinctive roll-off at the top end. I have also heard rather expensive i/cs muddle the top end somewhat in comparison to the £20 Mark Grants.
One thing is sure, the G1000HDs are worth the extra outlay for they lower the noise floor, reduce distortion from already low levels and resolve upper frequencies very well indeed resulting in very coherent and cohesive reproduction of music and a feast of extra detail.
Dave Cawley
09-11-2009, 12:49
Hi Steve, when did you try them? (G1000HD)
Dave
Steve Toy
09-11-2009, 13:38
I have had them between CD and pre as well as pre and power for a couple of weeks. The digital i/c for my DAC turned up last week.
Dave Cawley
09-11-2009, 14:06
Hi Steve
Marco said he had the only ones!!!!!
Dave
Many of the home made wires I use may just sound a little "raw" in comparison to carefully selected and far more expensive "boutique" wires, but, IMO, their heart is in the right place musically. I look forward to trying one of these cables before Christmas.
I wonder if Mark can do XLR to phono, or phono - 1/4" mono jack? No, I haven't asked him yet...;)
Hi Steve
Marco said he had the only ones!!!!!
Dave
No Marco didn't. What he said was that he'd received some from Mark Grant and that they were brand new and had just been released onto the market. He didn't say that he had the only ones ;)
I wonder if Mark can do XLR to phono, or phono - 1/4" mono jack? No, I haven't asked him yet...
I'd imagine that he'll terminate them with whatever connectors you want, Dave :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
10-11-2009, 18:03
Marco and I were both sent the first four pairs to be released. That's two pairs each.
And a couple of pairs for me (on Marco's advice, best buy I've ever made - thank you again, Marco !)
Wow... Nice one, Dimitri! You're welcome :)
How would you describe what they've done to your system over your usual cables - oh and out of interest, what were your 'usual cables'?
Marco.
The change was that the mid-lows are particularly good. As if they were better "integrated" to the overall result. I plan to make a more extensive review when I get Croft's pre. These cables deserve a better preamplifier. ;)
My usual cables were made by my friends at Audiophile Technologie (one of the finest tube amp makers in France) in Montpellier : http://www.hifi-atelier-audiophile.com/
They were their reference cables used for their flagship amplifier.
Ian Walker
10-11-2009, 20:17
Marco and I were both sent the first four pairs to be released. That's two pairs each.
Ah yes Mark said that was the duff stuff at the start of the roll,he's sending me the better "midroll" stuff.........
Ian Walker
10-11-2009, 20:19
And a couple of pairs for me (on Marco's advice, best buy I've ever made - thank you again, Marco !)
ssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhh say it quietly daftee he'll be puttin the price up;)
Ah yes Mark said that was the duff stuff at the start of the roll,he's sending me the better "midroll" stuff.........
The only "midroll" you'll be getting is the leftover bit with a wee 'message' on it at the end of his Andrex! :lol: :lol:
Marco.
Mark Grant
24-11-2009, 18:00
Are the G1000HDs a pseudo balanced construction ?
No, but they are doubled screened, so all that inaudible stuff in the air gets shut out, this reduces the susceptibility of intermod and can often give a clearer sound. Coincidently I'm make a set for a customer, but using way more expensive connectors. Although potentially I'm a competitor, Mark Grant is one of the honest cable manufacturers out there!
Regards
Dave
Thanks for the comments Dave :)
Mark.
Mark Grant
24-11-2009, 19:04
Canare/Belden I believe supply the cable and connectors (as they do in many well-known 'high-end' cable manufacturer's products), but the G1000HDs are branded as Mark's own design, and he's paid for the privilege :)
Marco.
Hello Marco,
Just a little correction here :)
The new cable called G1000HD is not made by Belden or Canare :)
The G1000HD audio cable is made to my specification by one of the best bulk cable manufacturers on the planet.
They also make some big well known seriously expensive brands and they are a bit of a secret ;)
Took a long time to find a manufacturer that could produce the quality required.
I first started looking at a having a high quality custom built cable manufactured way back in September 2004, never really happened back then as the price was too high and also not really sure at the time of the design and specification that I wanted.
I started working with this manufacturer in 2008, many prototype designs, samples and beta versions made in 2008 and most of 2009, now it is complete :)
The connectors I use on this are from Canare in Japan as they are great quality.
The centre core is crimped to the pin in the connector rather than soldered so every cable should be exactly the same performance.
With soldered connectors there is the possibility of variation depending on which solder is used or who solders it etc.
The screening is also crimped rather than soldered. It is a high quality product for sure.
I also have a few little tweaks to the termination process that make a slight difference ;)
Feedback has been excellent so far, nothing negative from anyone that has tried.
( I am always keen to hear suggestions, so if anyone has anything to suggest let me know.)
Thanks for the comments everyone :)
Mark.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-11-2009, 19:38
2 x 1m pairs just orderd
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the clarification :)
This new information now shows just how fantastic value your cables are, given the quality of component parts used within their design...
The most important information of all though is that they offer stunning performance. Like I said before, the G1000HDs have very little 'sound' of their own that I can detect, and simply allow music to flow naturally, 'unmolested', if you will, from component to component. One can't ask any more of a cable.
There are few things in hi-fi I've heard which I would offer an absolute blanket recommendation, and your cables are one of them. All I can say to people is buy with total confidence and hear your favourite music like never before!!
Marco.
Peter Galbavy
25-11-2009, 16:01
Well, just ordered a couple of the G1000HD's to sit between Caiman / 8000C / Rotel 1572. Now my speakers have been replaced I expect to be able to start appreciating the system as a whole.
Also just picked up a Rotel RB-985 for £175 on another forum to front my Denon 4308 in the TV room, so a good value set of 5 Canare's from Mark should help that work too :)
Nice one, Peter. I'm sure you won't be disappointed :)
Let us know how you get on when they arrive!
Marco.
I'd be delighted to use a 1m pair of phono to 1/4" jack on extended credit (;))
I still don't have the money from the ATC's as Dave & I need to know they've arrived safely and I've some valves to buy before anything else, but I'd love to try them and I'd certainly use them if they're truly better than the Beldens I made up myself...
Hi Dave,
No disrespect whatsoever to your D.I.Y skills, but I can't see them not being better... As far as I'm concerned, Mark's in a league of his own as a cable designer :)
He just seems to get it so fundamentally right at ground roots level, knows what stuff to select that works, cost-effectively, and takes all the bullshit 'audiophile nonsense' out of it.
Marco.
You're quite right Marco. I did work for two years I'd rather not remember (for personal reasons) for one of "the" UK audio cable companies and I do realise the costs involved in specifying the construction of the internals and also the amount (usually in Km) that has to ordered and possibly paid for up-front. The cheaper MG cable is almost certainly bought in off the drum and this can be obtained far more cheaply.
The stuff I use is cheap to buy and consistent. It doesn't have any sonic problems (and we're talking tiny differences here at best, aren't we, relatively speaking) and will more than do for now...
No disrespect whatsoever to your D.I.Y skills, but I can't see them not being better... As far as I'm concerned, Mark's in a league of his own as a cable designer :)
I don't disagree either, and just playing devil's advocate - but I'm sure you wouldn't have bet on Barry's home-grown interconnect beating the exalted companies it apparently did either? :confused: You never know! ;)
Indeed, Alex. I'd have to listen to Barry's cable in my own system to form a definitive conclusion on its efficacy in comparison with the G1000HD :)
Marco.
Come on Marco, the suspenders are killing me, we want to know, what is your opion on Barrys homebrew interconnects, i have bought the Neutrik plugs in anticipation the cable is to follow shortly, i love a bit of Diy, nudge nudge wink wink you know what i mean, or is this one of your i'll post it later type reviews and we are still waiting, fingers tap, drum drum
LOL, Jon! I'm afraid that I don't have Barry's cables here to try. Until I do, I can't tell you what I think of them...
However, I believe that Barry is going to send me some to try, and when he does, I'll gladly report on what I hear in comparison with the Mark Grants :)
Marco.
Hmmm... I'm not a great fan of those Nueutrik Profi plugs...:(
They didn't seem to be holding back the performace of Barry's cable at all in London :)
Btw, you'll need to send me a pair of your analogue ones to try. I think they should be in the mix along with Barry's.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
25-11-2009, 22:52
Indeed, Alex. I'd have to listen to Barry's cable in my own system to form a definitive conclusion on its efficacy in comparison with the G1000HD :)
Marco.
Well ahead of you on that one ;):) Once again Daleks are ahead of the game. Ooops me and my big...... I will have to exterminate you all now.
Regards D S D L
don't say that Mike, i've got twelve of the poxy plugs sitting on my desk :doh:
Barry Mon cher it's over to you
Well ahead of you on that one ;):) Once again Daleks are ahead of the game.
So, is what you're saying, daddy-o, that you've compared the MGs and Barry's cables against each other in your system, or that you've just listened to Barry's cables alone? :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
25-11-2009, 22:58
don't say that Mike, i've got twelve of the poxy plugs sitting on my desk :doh:
Barry Mon cher it's over to you
They are good plugs, but can grip a wee bit to tightly. Delicate RCA jacks badly mounted do have a tendency to come offff.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
25-11-2009, 23:00
So, is what you're saying, daddy-o, that you've compared the MGs and Barry's cables against each other in your system, or that you've just listened to Barry's cables alone? :)
Marco.
Why waste time with any thing but the best;), Barry's alone. Mon Capitain...
Only joking I am sure Mark Grants cables are very good. I needed long cables for a project and Barry helped out. A write up will follow at some point but I am swamped at the minute...to many projects and not enough time.
Regards D S D L
Btw, you'll need to send me a pair of your analogue ones to try. I think they should be in the mix along with Barry's.
Marco.
That's bloody spooky! :sofa:
don't say that Mike, i've got twelve of the poxy plugs sitting on my desk :doh:
Barry Mon cher it's over to you
Don't worry, it's just a 'personal' thing... I find them a bit awkward to work with. ;)
Don't worry, it's just a 'personal' thing... I find them a bit awkward to work with. ;)
i hear they say they same about Marco
i hear they say they same about Marco
:D :lolsign: :D
I guess it depends on what you mean by "work with", dahling... I'm quite flexible, actually ;)
Marco.
Hi Guys,
I've only just noticed the last few postings to this thread.
I wouldn't expect my cables necessarily to do that well against the Mark Grant G1000HD, as reading Mark's website, they seem to be of professional standard in both materials and construction. In fact reading the description, the cable looks similar to an RF cable I used at work at GHz frequencies! Also Mark's cables are about twice the price of mine.
Marco, you say that the Mark Grant cables are the very same ones you brought down to JJ's cable test, and in JJ's system they were competitive to mine. I'll drop mine off with you when I see you in the New Year, so that you can compare the two in your system.
I like the Neutrik 'ProFi' RCA phono plugs for the reasons that I have explained in previous posts. However I can accept that not everyone will think that they are worth double the price of Neutrik's 'standard' version. The old version of the ProFi plug was difficult to work with, especially soldering the screen, however later versions are better in this respect.
I also ought to point out that 'my' cables are intended to be used in the analogue domain. I believe digital cables (i.e. as used between a digital source and a DAC) demand greater care in the choice of both cable and connector.
Regards
I like the Neutrik 'ProFi' RCA phono plugs for the reasons that I have explained in previous posts. However I can accept that not everyone will think that they are worth double the price of Neutrik's 'standard' version. The old version of the ProFi plug was difficult to work with, especially soldering the screen, however later versions are better in this respect.
Hi Barry,
I agree with you in many repects about the 'Profi' plugs, but I just find them a bit 'fiddly'(:confused:)... I think we both agree in our points of view about the 'RCA phono' connector in general? I personally prefer 'locking' type plugs from a mechanical viewpoint.
Electrically speaking. My own 'reservations' are based mainly on feedback from people who've actually bought cables I have made for them to use in the digital domain.
Marco, you say that the Mark Grant cables are the very same ones you brought down to JJ's cable test, and in JJ's system they were competitive to mine.
Indeed, so 'professional' cable or not, yours performed very well against the Mark Grants :)
What's beyond question though, in relation to the G1000HDs, is that commercially they are quite extraordinary value for money, both in a material and sonic sense.
I'll drop mine off with you when I see you in the New Year, so that you can compare the two in your system.
I look forward to it!
Marco.
I love both types of Neutric plugs. I also use some reasonably good alternatives, but some of these have too strong an outer connector, which risks breaking moulded twin sockets on removal. The Neutric's both seem just right in this regard..
don't say that Mike, i've got twelve of the poxy plugs sitting on my desk :doh:
Double bollock i have just noticed that i have bought the standard plugs and not the Profi, but at £12 ish a pair for the profi's perhaps my standards at £2 a pair is better value?? I really ought to pay more attention to what Barry is writing in the future
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I love both types of Neutric plugs. I also use some reasonably good alternatives, but some of these have too strong an outer connector, which risks breaking moulded twin sockets on removal. The Neutric's both seem just right in this regard".
__________________
Peace on this holy ground,
Dave
Thanks though Dave you have made me feel a bit better
The Vinyl Adventure
26-11-2009, 17:08
credit where its due, i orderd my cables 2 days ago in the evening and they came this morning!!
Peter Galbavy
27-11-2009, 09:26
"me too". I ordered on Weds afternoon and the special delivery package would have been delivered yesterday except there was no one in to sign for it. Another 15 minutes of my life wasted this morning waiting for some guy at the sorting office to dissapear for ages for no reason and then reappear after he did whatever they do (smoke, tea, who knows).
The cables look really pretty, but they are not going to get plugged in until I get home tonight - or maybe even tomorrow if I am too tired to appreciate the process :)
Nice one, guys! Some comments as to how they're performing compared to whatever it was you used before would be good :)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
29-11-2009, 19:54
I don't currently don't know how they are doing as the set up us the first set up they have been used in! I might well have a play comparing them with some with my basic qed audio 1 cables in the new set up... I fear I already know the outcome!
Hi Hamish,
Please do that as all feedback is important and much appreciated :)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
29-11-2009, 20:11
Shall do!
anthonyTD
29-11-2009, 21:01
hi all,
i have recently been auditioning two pairs of mark grants cables in my own system and their sonic diffrences over what i have been using long term [townshend isolda] are proving very interesting, however, i have explained to mark that i will refrain from giving my opinion on their performance untill i am sure that they have sufficiently settled in. stay tuned!:)
regards,anthony,TD...
Nice one, mate - you kept that quiet! ;)
The bottom line of course, as I've always said and as I'm sure you'll agree, is that there is no one 'perfect cable' for every system.
All I can say, quite categorically, is that the G1000HD are head and shoulders the best cables I've ever used in my system.
If you're coming up next week, bring your Isoldas and we'll do a comparison at my place. I'm sure that this will also prove very interesting :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
29-11-2009, 21:33
Nice one -
you kept that quiet! ;)
The bottom line of course, as I've always said and as I'm sure you'll agree, is that there is no one 'perfect cable' for every system.
All I can say, quite categorically, is that the G1000HD are head and shoulders the best cables I've ever used in my system.
If you're coming up next week, bring your Isoldas and we'll do a comparison at my place. I'm sure that this will also prove very interesting :)
Marco.
well,,, i wanted to do the test in my own time, and to give the cables a fair go... however i will offer my opinions once i am happy that they have had enough time to reveal their true potential.:)
regards,anthony,TD...
That's definitely the right thing to do, although normally if cables are genuinely better than what you were using before you get an instant 'hit', even before they've 'burnt-in'...
It took me about 10 seconds to 90% decide that the G1000HDs were the best cables I've used so far. The other 10% certainty arrived a few days later once I'd thoroughly analysed their effect.
Like I said, bring the Isoldas up with you, because the respective results of the Isoldas and MGs in both our systems would be interesting and I suspect significant :)
Marco.
"thoroughly analysed their effect" = "burnt-in"
Sounds fair. ;)
anthonyTD
29-11-2009, 21:49
That's definitely the right thing to do, although normally if cables are genuinely better than what you were using before you get an instant 'hit', even before they've 'burnt-in'...
It took me about 10 seconds to 90% decide that the G1000HDs were the best cables I've heard so far. The other 10% certainty arrived a few days later once I'd thoroughly analysed their effect.
Like I said, bring them up with you, because the respective results of the Isoldas and MGs in both our systems would be interesting and I suspect significant :)
Marco.
hi marco,
it is undeniable that there is a significant diffrence between the two types of cable, i just need to do more listening before i am sure what is realy going on!
sure, when i visit i can bring up the isolda's and we can do the comparison in your system, that would indeed be very interesting!:)
A...
Nice one! :)
It'll be interesting to hear your conclusion though before you come up. I know what my view is, based on experience of both cables, which of course may differ from yours, judging by their interaction with our respective equipment.
IME, the Isoldas have more of a 'sound'/sonic signature than the MGs, which depending on the sonic characteristics of one's system will work really well or not. I found the exact same thing with JJ's MAD designs. Excellent in the right context, but for me, ultimately a little coloured.
However, you might think the exact same thing about the MGs and find the Isoldas more neutral! :lolsign:
Marco.
Peter Galbavy
30-11-2009, 13:41
Well, all good so far. I can't offer even a subjective comparison because so much has changed in my 2 channel set-up that it wouldn't be fair. Once thing I did do (and the reason for buying on pair of 1m and on of 0.75m) is to wire the Caiman directly into the power amp, bypassing the 8000C. The overall experience is very clean - in fact maybe too clean as I am again getting annoyed by substandard recordings. This happened the last time I upgraded speakers in the AV room. Hopefully I will get used to it and get to the substance of the music and not the technical deficiences of some of it.
Is the 8000C an Audiolab one? if so, then this will add a little to the proceedings, thus blending differences in recording quality a bit (as my Quad valve power amps do when compared with something decent and more modern).
If it is Audiolab and you'd like a more transparent preamp for not much dosh used, the 8000Q (original issue) is now quite cheap and is far more faithful to the original source IMO.
Anyway, back to cables :)
You know, £75 for a 1m pair would have been budget price ten years ago. It's only now as small manufacturers sell online at "trade" prices that these bargains can be had. What else is around at this price in HiFi shops? Chord Co budget range, Audioquest, Bland-n-Dull????? I'd sooner give Mark the money trusting Marco as I do..... ;)
No problem, just forward a cheque covering my hi-fi consultancy fees to the usual address.... ;)
Marco.
I'll invoice you for mine (30 years @ £20K per annum should do it) :lol:
I do appreciate that this is pin money when compared to the mega incomes generated by many of the posters here....:)
Mega incomes=mega taxes :D
Not if you have a good accountant ;)
Marco.
Peter Galbavy
01-12-2009, 09:46
Is the 8000C an Audiolab one? if so, then this will add a little to the proceedings, thus blending differences in recording quality a bit (as my Quad valve power amps do when compared with something decent and more modern).
If it is Audiolab and you'd like a more transparent preamp for not much dosh used, the 8000Q (original issue) is now quite cheap and is far more faithful to the original source IMO.
Yes, but I am waiting to see what Stan might do next as the *only* reason for the Audiolab to exist, now I have a Caiman, is as a phono stage. I play vinyl so rarely what a manual cable move is fine for now :)
You know, £75 for a 1m pair would have been budget price ten years ago. It's only now as small manufacturers sell online at "trade" prices that these bargains can be had. What else is around at this price in HiFi shops? Chord Co budget range, Audioquest, Bland-n-Dull????? I'd sooner give Mark the money trusting Marco as I do..... ;)
Yes, agreed. But ten years ago, and even now, I would not be so *stupid* (I am using that word very intentionally, sorry if it offends some) as to spend those amount of money. I understand the law of diminishing returns, but there is always something else that such "real" amounts of money can be spent on. £75 is low enough for me to take a punt in the hope that a well made cable is simply better, subjective and observational bias aside.
anthonyTD
01-12-2009, 17:01
hi all,
well,,, today i emailed my findings on the G1000HD cables to mark grant and he has agreed for me to put a copy of that email here for all to read, i dont realy need to add anything further to it so please see below.
Hi mark,
I stated that I would let you know first hand my findings of the cables that you so kindly and promptly sent me for evaluation in my own system, these being the G1000HD interconnects, well, I have listened to my system playing various types of music [as I usually do] with said cables in situ and have come to the conclusion that they are very good indeed, this is the description I was going to give regarding their sonic signature “they have excellent detail retrieval and are very fast, bass weight and depth is good, imaging is solid etc, however they are quite merciless when dealing with less than desirable recordings” then I realised that what I was hearing was not the cables but in fact the traits of my current system setup! In other words these cables don’t really add any significant character that is worth describing, they just let you hear what’s happening in your system as a whole’ good or bad, which in reality is the only thing you should expect a top notch cable to do, so all that’s left to say at this particular time is well done, you have succeeded in making a cable that can be used confidently as a bench mark for the true evaluation of each component in the chain.
Regards, Anthony, TD…
Hi Anthony,
That's very interesting, mate, and also very honest of you too! :)
Most people would've just said that the MGs were 'bright sounding', and put the blame on the cable, not the system (although I've never thought that your system sounded particularly bright) :scratch:
However, we're in agreement that the G1000HDs simply tell it as it is, and that they are extremely transparent with little signature of their own - which is why I like them and consider them a serious bargain.
When I tried Isoldas in my system a few years back they definitely had more 'character' than the MGs, which is why I made the earlier comment.
Anyway, I'm just having my tea at the moment but will add more later http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1817/character0104.gif (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/character0104.gif/)
Marco.
anthonyTD
02-12-2009, 13:52
hi all,
listening to my system this morning and all is very well, i am a great believer in leaving things settle, and it would seem that my system after being disturbed to include the mark grant cables have certainly benefited from a bit of settling! any forwardness that these new cables seemed to have highlighted in the first instance of their implementation in my system has now subsided, do these cables make my system sound any better, thats a difficult one, i think the more important question to ask is,,, has my system suffered since the inclusion of these cables, answer, certainly not! so the final question would be thus,,,could i live with these long term in my system, answer''' certainly!!!
if like me you only want to hear the true potential of your system, and its individual component make up then this choice of cable is a winner, if on the other hand your looking for cables that act as passive tone controls to mask deficiancies somewhere in your replay equipment, then i sugest you look elsewhere.
hope this helps.:)
regards,anthony,TD...
electric beach
03-12-2009, 17:22
Marco, Anthony
Could you help me better understand how you (and therefore I) can test and judge that any given cable connection is without sonic signature, an open window, neutral and uncoloured? How do you determine that it IS the cable exposing a character within the system and that it is NOT an effect of introducing that link into the chain.
I guess I'm looking for a methodology to apply, I hope the answer is not simply that you already know from experience what the connected components sound like. :rolleyes:
This is emphatically not a question questioning your comments and findings of Mark's interconnects (which I have been eagerly awaiting) but consider this in the assessment of any connection. :youtheman:
The Vinyl Adventure
03-12-2009, 18:28
i would have thought that comparing cables sonic signature would be made easier by comparing them with multiple sources ... but i guess even that could get confusing...
thats a damn good question!!
I'd like mark himself to post on this, but I've found that the best sounding interconnects are usually very "clean" ar RF frequencies. It's not just bandwidth, but how much reflection or "splatter" there is at these frequencies. I do appreciate this is one of many parameters to balance, but I still think it's important.
anthonyTD
03-12-2009, 19:30
Marco, Anthony
Could you help me better understand how you (and therefore I) can test and judge that any given cable connection is without sonic signature, an open window, neutral and uncoloured? How do you determine that it IS the cable exposing a character within the system and that it is NOT an effect of introducing that link into the chain.
I guess I'm looking for a methodology to apply, I hope the answer is not simply that you already know from experience what the connected components sound like. :rolleyes:
This is emphatically not a question questioning your comments and findings of Mark's interconnects (which I have been eagerly awaiting) but consider this in the assessment of any connection. :youtheman:
hi steve,
the answer unfortunetly IMHO does rely partly on knowing and recognising the sonic ability of the key components in the chain, even in a worse case scenario, first and foremost, cables should not be used in an atempt to rectify serious fundamental flaws and incompatibility issues within a system, this will only lead to frustration in the long run. cables are as far as i am concerned the icing on what is already a very well sorted cake!!! when i choose a cable i listen for key elements in paticular recordings which i would recognise in any system ie, prominent characteristics, then i decide whether that paticular cable allows those key elements to flow naturaly and timely, simple as that.:)
hope this helps.
regards,anthony,TD...
electric beach
04-12-2009, 17:47
Thanks Anthony,
I didn't want to load the question but it just occurred to me that you would be in a unique position to judge a cable connection in absolute terms because of your perspective as the designer of the components (I'm thinking of power amp and pre amp here); components that were publicly applauded to be among the best examples of the highest performance possible - ever. So I imagined that your evaluation would be based on the ability of the connection to maximise the potential of these components that you know
intimately and that you would hear any tendency to restrict that performance i.e. to act in a limiting or accentuating way that could
be described as a sonic signature.
An equally valid evaluation, Marco would come from a more comparative perspective, knowing his source components through extensive tests and experience, but all of which would be judged against other cables. My thoughts were the same as Hamish; that by testing with different components you would discover common attributes that could then be considered as the cables influence and signature. The more you think about this, the more variables come to mind that would influence this sort of judgement. Neither you nor Marco would be doing this, so it raised the question of method for me.
While we all understand and agree that these connections should be as accurate and transparent as possible to allow the true nature of the hardware - the icing on the cake, as you say - I for one (probably most of us) am still in the process of developing, refining and balancing a system and the cake is still in the process of being cooked and sorted. I'm still unsure how to differentiate between a connection cable that is making my system sound better because it is allowing the components to perform to their maximum potential (transparent, complimentary and honest) and one that sounds better because it is minimising their shortcomings (a coloured tone control). I don't intend to use the latter but how do I tell them apart?
And I like Dave's idea, if Mark would be kind enough to comment himself. Commercial product design and a Hi Fi system are both about balancing compromises. I like balance.
Ali Tait
04-12-2009, 18:02
I've found that cables matter less generally with valve gear.To me,a far bigger difference can be made by changing,say,a coupling cap.Interestingly though,when I got the Accuphase T-101,I tried it first with one of my own DIY silver cables.It sounded dire! In the course of mucking about trying to fix it,I tried a Chord Company Solid I had lying about.HUGE difference.I've never before heard a cable change make such a difference.
anthonyTD
04-12-2009, 18:35
Thanks Anthony,
I didn't want to load the question but it just occurred to me that you would be in a unique position to judge a cable connection in absolute terms because of your perspective as the designer of the components (I'm thinking of power amp and pre amp here); components that were publicly applauded to be among the best examples of the highest performance possible - ever. So I imagined that your evaluation would be based on the ability of the connection to maximise the potential of these components that you know
intimately and that you would hear any tendency to restrict that performance i.e. to act in a limiting or accentuating way that could
be described as a sonic signature.
An equally valid evaluation, Marco would come from a more comparative perspective, knowing his source components through extensive tests and experience, but all of which would be judged against other cables. My thoughts were the same as Hamish; that by testing with different components you would discover common attributes that could then be considered as the cables influence and signature. The more you think about this, the more variables come to mind that would influence this sort of judgement. Neither you nor Marco would be doing this, so it raised the question of method for me.
While we all understand and agree that these connections should be as accurate and transparent as possible to allow the true nature of the hardware - the icing on the cake, as you say - I for one (probably most of us) am still in the process of developing, refining and balancing a system and the cake is still in the process of being cooked and sorted. I'm still unsure how to differentiate between a connection cable that is making my system sound better because it is allowing the components to perform to their maximum potential (transparent, complimentary and honest) and one that sounds better because it is minimising their shortcomings (a coloured tone control). I don't intend to use the latter but how do I tell them apart?
And I like Dave's idea, if Mark would be kind enough to comment himself. Commercial product design and a Hi Fi system are both about balancing compromises. I like balance.
hi steve,
i understand where your coming from and it is a dificult one to answer, all i can tell you and i hope people who know and own some of my equipment as well as other well respected manufacturer types will varify, cables in a well sorted system will always have an affect on over-all performance, but the true sonic capabilities of the system as a whole should still be identifiable, whether it is dulled by some cables, or exagerated by others, a cable's ability should just be used to tip the final balance in favour of what the listner perceives to be the correct balance.
regards,anthony,TD...
electric beach
04-12-2009, 21:59
a cable's ability should just be used to tip the final balance in favour of what the listner perceives to be the correct balance.
Kind of like a fine-tune tone control then... :hmm: :brickwall:
No, I do understand. Ali's example illustrates how getting the basic compatability wrong can be as fundamental as the component matching. But having done that, the difference between the Chord Co cable and a similar design could be that final refinement.
When I started with this lark I was advised that when choosing equipment, the greater the difference heard between recordings showed that the replay was more accurate, that you would be hearing the recording character rather than the system. This started leading me towards a set up that played excellent recordings impressively - but only those!
C'mon Marco, I need your input now. You're normally banging on about neutrality in connections - even when it's not the subject! :whistle:
The Vinyl Adventure
04-12-2009, 22:07
Marco, "banging on" about something ... Nah ...
anthonyTD
04-12-2009, 22:09
hi steve,
if i had known this thread was intended to try and catch people out, or trip people up then i wouldnt have bothered replying, but since i have,,, i stand by my explanation, which was cables should not be used as tone controls in the context of the rest of the post,,,come on man!:scratch:
A...
I understand and agree with Anthony's review on these cables, and I'm desperately searching another way of stating the same things... It's going to be really hard. :help:
Hi Steve,
I fully intend to reply to the points you've raised. Unfortunately, it's on my 'To Do' list at the moment along with a 101 other things! :)
I promise that I'll get to it as soon as I can, probably tomorrow :cool:
Marco.
OK... I can't resist. ;)
I'm going to throw a wee spanner in the works now and suggest that cables ARE 'tone controls'! :lol:
No, seriously!... they are. Just like everything else in the system. Ya see 'system' is the operative word. I contend that you need to take a holistic (to borrow a word from another esteemed member here) view of the whole lot. It ALL interacts to effect tone, timbre, pace, musicality, etc. etc. etc... Including the room, our tastes, our moods, etc. etc. etc....
Nothing is perfect, not the cables, stands, components (all of 'em), or even the music for that matter. :confused:
I get kinda sick of hearing that this cable or that cable is 'better' or 'worse' than whatever cable. It's the overall result of the entire system that matters to most to our enjoyment of the music, surely?
Stop pretending that cables aren't 'tone controls'. They are! Just like CDP's, amps, loudspeakers, and everything else in the chain are too! ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
05-12-2009, 01:34
Don't forget bum holes, bum holes are good tone controls too...
Don't forget bum holes, bum holes are good tone controls too...
:nocomment:
The Vinyl Adventure
05-12-2009, 01:53
:lolsign: .. Ive had a few and this thread has got far too confusing!
I do agree with what you just said though mike! It's about the most easy to understand conclusion as regards cables etc... Apart from the fact that I'm fairly sure some cable mus be better than others! If a little bit of free wire wire that comes with your cheapy cd player makes a system sound better.. Maybe by dulling the sound somehow, then I would say other things in the system need addressing ... Right?
Peter Galbavy
05-12-2009, 08:09
I understand and agree with Anthony's review on these cables, and I'm desperately searching another way of stating the same things... It's going to be really hard. :help:
How about: "Niiiiice!"
:ner:
The Grand Wazoo
05-12-2009, 10:34
Hamish I'm a little worried about these two statements...........
Don't forget bum holes, bum holes are good tone controls too...
.. Ive had a few
.........spelling is one thing mate, but you're use of grammar there is appalling!
anthonyTD
05-12-2009, 10:49
Hamish I'm a little worried about these two statements...........
.........spelling is one thing mate, but you're use of grammar there is appalling!
:scratch::confused:
anthonyTD
05-12-2009, 10:55
OK... I can't resist. ;)
I'm going to throw a wee spanner in the works now and suggest that cables ARE 'tone controls'! :lol:
No, seriously!... they are. Just like everything else in the system. Ya see 'system' is the operative word. I contend that you need to take a holistic (to borrow a word from another esteemed member here) view of the whole lot. It ALL interacts to effect tone, timbre, pace, musicality, etc. etc. etc... Including the room, our tastes, our moods, etc. etc. etc....
Nothing is perfect, not the cables, stands, components (all of 'em), or even the music for that matter. :confused:
I get kinda sick of hearing that this cable or that cable is 'better' or 'worse' than whatever cable. It's the overall result of the entire system that matters to most to our enjoyment of the music, surely?
Stop pretending that cables aren't 'tone controls'. They are! Just like CDP's, amps, loudspeakers, and everything else in the chain are too! ;)
aye,
and so is your room, and your ears if you look at it in that context ya big jesse.:ner::lolsign:
The Vinyl Adventure
05-12-2009, 11:47
Hamish I'm a little worried about these two statements...........
.........spelling is one thing mate, but you're use of grammar there is appalling!
Its my sub consience mind trying to out me I guess, it's hard work living this double life!
The Grand Wazoo
05-12-2009, 12:31
Step back into that closet quick, before Anthony realises that I'm actually not talking about grammar!
anthonyTD
05-12-2009, 12:47
Step back into that closet quick, before Anthony realises that I'm actually not talking about grammar!
:lolsign:
electric beach
05-12-2009, 14:49
hi steve,
if i had known this thread was intended to try and catch people out, or trip people up then i wouldnt have bothered replying, but since i have,,, i stand by my explanation, which was cables should not be used as tone controls in the context of the rest of the post,,,come on man!:scratch:
A...
No offence or hidden agenda intended mate. I thought I approached the subject with the greatest respect for both your's and Marco's experience, ability, opinions and critical judgement. That's why I asked the question; it's the subject that's tricky, not me! :grouphug:
Steve Toy
05-12-2009, 16:31
It wasn't intended to catch people out at the outset.
This is that Art of Sound. The objectivist barrack room lawyers, a rather vociferous minority amongst audiophiles, do not have a platform here. We value the experiences of our members and trust their hearing/judgement unless they prove otherwise.
Hi Steve,
Could you help me better understand how you (and therefore I) can test and judge that any given cable connection is without sonic signature, an open window, neutral and uncoloured?
There is no such thing as a cable which is free from any sonic signature, such as you describe above - but there are some which subjectively, according to your available benchmark, impart less of a signature than others. The G1000HDs, for me, come into that category.
It's a question of judging results from your available (known) benchmarks, based on listening experience of your system, and also in the wider field of audio. Experience of listening to a genuinely wide variety of music (both recorded and live) and knowing favourite CD or record selections intimately, inside out, is also essential because that's what is used as the test sample from which to evaluate differences, both musically and sonically.
The important thing to remember though is that there is no universal methodology for ascertaining the efficacy of cables, and those which offer your preferred sonic presentation. However, you can arrive at a reasonably definitive conclusion by using a known benchmark as a reference.
This is the process I used to evaluate the Mark Grant G1000HDs.
How do you determine that it IS the cable exposing a character within the system and that it is NOT an effect of introducing that link into the chain.
Basically, by adopting the process I've described above and using your experience to differentiate between effects heard that are genuine improvements, (i.e. those which make you listen to music more), and those which are simply the result of euphonic coloration imbued on the source signal that, superficially on initial listening, makes the sound merely either more 'impressive' or 'easier on the ear'. Neither of those necessarily equates to a genuine improvement.
The best cables, in my experience, are those which make your system play music in such a way that you're pulling out album after album to hear newly discovered information on recordings which previous cables had masked or rendered less enjoyable. If after a listening session there are a pile of CDs or records strewn across the floor, chances are those cables are the right ones for your system and you... *That* is the most 'definitive' proof of all for how effective anything in hi-fi is, not just cables! :cool:
I guess I'm looking for a methodology to apply
Hopefully I've helped give you that. It's not an easy or straightforward question to answer :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
05-12-2009, 17:40
No offence or hidden agenda intended mate. I thought I approached the subject with the greatest respect for both your's and Marco's experience, ability, opinions and critical judgement. That's why I asked the question; it's the subject that's tricky, not me! :grouphug:
steve,
it is a tricky subject, and like marco has explained there is no cable that i know of that dosent impose i little of itself onto the sonic signature of any system, but there are cables that seem to have less affect than others, or ones that sound more right than others, what i was trying to explain about not using cables as tone controls is,,,sort the rest of the system out as best you can before putting the final piece of the jigsaw together,which in this instance is the cables, i know this in itself is difficult with so much equipment to choose and endless combinations of said equipment, all i can say is experience is invaluable, if you dont have that, then seek out someone who does, it will save a lot of time and frustration.:)
i hope this helps.
regards,anthony,TD...
Ian Walker
05-12-2009, 18:24
It wasn't intended to catch people out at the outset.
This is that Art of Sound. The objectivist barrack room lawyers, a rather vociferous minority amongst audiophiles, do not have a platform here. We value the experiences of our members and trust their hearing/judgement unless they prove otherwise.
Steve,arent you supposed to be off somewhere nailing your colours to the mast?:lol::lol::lol::lol:
Steve Toy
05-12-2009, 18:41
They are nailed.
Yo Mikey,
I'm going to throw a wee spanner in the works now and suggest that cables ARE 'tone controls'!
Mmm... I see where you're coming from, but I guess that depends how one analyses their 'tone control' effect. In my experience, the best cables don't act much as 'tone controls', in a traditional sense, which I see as simply adding bass or treble to boost loudness - they just allow music to flow naturally.
There are plenty of cables on the market which do act as traditional 'tone controls', of course, but I don't consider the G1000HDs as one of them.
I contend that you need to take a holistic (to borrow a word from another esteemed member here) view of the whole lot. It ALL interacts to effect tone, timbre, pace, musicality, etc. etc. etc... Including the room, our tastes, our moods, etc. etc. etc....
I couldn't agree more! And choosing the right cables is intrinsically a part of that holistic view. However, in that scenario they aren't necessarily performing as 'tone controls' in the sense you mean.
I get kinda sick of hearing that this cable or that cable is 'better' or 'worse' than whatever cable. It's the overall result of the entire system that matters to most to our enjoyment of the music, surely?
Yes, and of course cables play a significant part overall in how well your system reproduces music, and thus how much you enjoy listening to it. A 'better' cable is simply one which allows that effect to be realised :)
Marco.
electric beach
05-12-2009, 22:10
Thankyou both, Marco and Anthony, for your comprehensive consideration and answers to my question, the context of which is that I have considered a component's signature traits by comparing it in a number of situations and looking to identify characteristics that remain constant as the conditions or partnering equipment changed.
I tried my new power cable (the Belden 83803 based) in each of my locations and the common effects were negative; enhanced detail and drive but delivered with hardened upper registers that spoilt the frequency balance compared to RS Yellow cable or standard supplied lead. I question that this could be either positively revealing a system issue or could be a cable trait, I don't know. I've ordered one from Mark to compare. I suspect that an improvement which Anthony identified, namely a crossover revision to present my Tube Distinctions modified Yaqin with a more uniform load to drive, may be needed before I can take advantage of the potential that the Belden might bring.
This is why I would rely on Anthony or Marco with more revealing, sorted systems and experience, or a reviewer, or common consensus from a number of people, to identify the signature (or lack of it), but that then decide whether it's the right component for my system, maybe by trial and error but at least on an informed basis.
Hi Steve,
Thankyou both, Marco and Anthony, for your comprehensive consideration and answers to my question, the context of which is that I have considered a component's signature traits by comparing it in a number of situations and looking to identify characteristics that remain constant as the conditions or partnering equipment changed.
No worries, dude. Sorry for my delay in replying, but I had a lot on, and I wanted to try and give the best answer I could, rather than rushing it and missing stuff out :)
The bit in bold is very important. I think it's safe to say that any cable which performs superbly well in a variety of systems is a 'good' cable, which could also be regarded as relatively free of sonic signature as it has to compliment the presentations of various types of equipment.
That's precisely why the G1000HDs have been received so well!
I tried my new power cable (the Belden 83803 based) in each of my locations and the common effects were negative; enhanced detail and drive but delivered with hardened upper registers that spoilt the frequency balance compared to RS Yellow cable or standard supplied lead. I question that this could be either positively revealing a system issue or could be a cable trait
Experience suggests that it is likely to be a cable trait. Some Belden cables intrinsically possess the effect you mention. It's the reason why I moved from Belden 5T00UP speaker cable to VDH 'The Wind', as the former added a 'hard' edge to the sound which no amount of adjustment elsewhere would tame. The VDH cables have all the drive and 'sparkle' of the Belden 5T00UP, but are less coloured, adding more weight, texture, and resolution to the overall musical presentation.
Experiment, of course, but I suspect that you'll never fully resolve the 'hardness' in the sound you're hearing until you change from the Beldens. I think that you'll find Mark's mains leads rather more 'even-handed', sonically, and ultimately more musically rewarding :cool:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 15:22
Just swiped qed audio 2 from out the back the copper dac for the g1000hd that was coming out the majik...
I think I said I would report on the differences between these 2 cables...
Well, i did say I would hold off comenting ferther on the dac until it was better set up... I think that qed thing was holding it back somewhat! There realy is no comparison!
I was just chatting to Anthony about how nice it is having a system that can resolve such subtle differences in thing like cables. This wasn't subtle... I'm never ever going to understand how cables make this level of difference... But it really don't matter... These apear to me to be really rather good!
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 15:29
Hannah was asleep while I swoped the cables she just woke up and commented on it sounding "a lot better"! Very very impresive, there really are some very clever people around these parts!!
Nice one, Hamish - you've just succeeded in removing a huge bottleneck (the QED cables) from your system...
What's happened is akin to opening a water tap fully which was previously only half-open, so now the water is flowing freely and rushing through, unrestricted!
In a hi-fi sense, the musical information previously being held 'in check' by your old cables, is now flooding through in a similar way!! :)
And yes, the only way you'll hear what your new copper DAC is capable of is to use G1000HDs throughout ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 16:33
They are being used now for everything but the digi cable - I have one of mikes on the way!
Nice one - I'm sure that will be the final part of your cable jigsaw... Just make sure though and compare Mike's cable to the Mark's, which can also be used as a digital cable, to find out for definite which cable works best in your system :)
Remember what John and I were saying elsewhere about more resolution showing up things that were previously hidden? Well, the copper DAC was showing up the deficiencies of your QED cables, which have now been resolved by introducing the Mark Grants!
It's this process of identifying issues and solving them at source that building a genuinely superb and (long-term) musically satisfying system is all about... Furthermore, the fact that Hannah was asleep when the cable change took place and commented on the improved sound, unprompted, when she woke up also proves that what you heard wasn't imagined!! :cool:
Don't worry, stick with the audio gurus on AoS and you won't go far wrong ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 17:07
It's quite reasuring all this I have to say, I'm a lot more confident in my ears than I used to be!
Just wanna get all this stuff in the new house so i can make the last few tweaks I want to
and don't worry marco, shall no doubt be seeking advice from all you guru's .... ... ...
Ali Tait
24-12-2009, 17:30
Gurus? When are they gong to post then? :lolsign:
You just have, laddie! :eyebrows:
No worries, Hamish. We're all hear to learn - that's why sharing information and experiences is necessary and often rewarding :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
24-12-2009, 18:35
Much as I hate to,I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Marco again. :doh: :lol:
I've just asked about a set 1m phono to 1/4" mono jack, as I'm interested in Marco's comments regarding a very slight "etched" quality from many popular Belden wires...
All I need to do is find the donor wires for the "Wind" conductors, unless VDH have it made themselves..
One of the best speaker cables I ever heard was of unknown source - two massive stranded copper conductors around 1/2" diameter each channel terminated in chunky spade connectors. I bet they were based on powerline wires :lol:
Ali Tait
24-12-2009, 19:21
I've used similar myself-cable I liberated from work,except mine was about three quarters of an inch across.Was a long time ago in a very different system (use the force Luke! :lol:)
Was very good as I remember,though recently I've found solid-core stuff better.
Much as I hate to,I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Marco again. :doh: :lol:
Hahahaha... Great minds think alike or fools never differ?
Marco.
Ali Tait
24-12-2009, 19:32
Choose yer pick! :eyebrows:
Dafties united it is then! :lolsign:
Marco.
Ali Tait
24-12-2009, 19:52
:lolsign:
One of the best speaker cables I ever heard was of unknown source - two massive stranded copper conductors around 1/2" diameter each channel terminated in chunky spade connectors. I bet they were based on powerline wires :lol:
Welding cables are a good source for chunky copper cables and not that expensive per metre either
Well, got my G1000HD's this morning - first class always takes two days to reach here...
I ran them into switched off power amps this morning and now wifey's out and sonny-jim otherwise occupied, I've switched the power amps on and am listening to something I know well.
You know, the Belden's I was using before are fine for 95% of it and as they cost me very little, I can still rate them highly. What I WILL say about the Mark Grant wires is that I find I can do the Linn "Tune-n-rhythm" thang a little better perhaps. Something else is that spatial decay (reverb) and things at the very back of the mix seem to be a little clearer. Extreme bass and treble seem more forward too, although with my ears, anything's possible...
I'm not going to say these cables make a night and day difference, as we're all prone to exaggerate tiny differences in this hobby, but I can say that I very much like what they *don't* do and am quite happy to leave them in the system. I now need to buy some more - yikes!!!!!!
Hmmm, I've just turned the volume up a little - me LIKE!!!!!!!!!!!
Who says CD's don't do 3-D................................................. ................................................
Steve Toy
31-12-2009, 14:07
Now you should try his mains cables. Even more textures, reverb and decay.
Hey, I've got credit cards to sort out first guv.........
Nah, it's an XLR to phono cable set next ;)
jandl100
16-02-2010, 14:51
Anyone got a pair of these MG cables they would care to loan me, before I take the plunge and maybe buy a pair? :)
Mark does a sale-or-return on them... They don't seem to have a sound at all, they just open the window further than a typical mid priced interconnect does without changing or "manipulating" the sound in any way...
Got a mains lead now and some fancy quasi-balanced wires coming too to try..
Great service, fantastic products for not much money and THEY WORK!!!!!
Thanks Mark, and thanks to Marco for recommending them to us all.
jandl100
16-02-2010, 18:16
Yup - thanks Dave. I ordered a pair this afternoon from MGC and have had an email saying they will be posted today!
I shall report back with my thoughts. :)
No chance in sending them back : these cables are unbeatable. ;)
Yup - thanks Dave. I ordered a pair this afternoon from MGC and have had an email saying they will be posted today!
I shall report back with my thoughts. :)
Look forward to that Jerry, given your experience of so many cables (no offence intended!)
I'd only just bought the standard ones when the new ones came out, so yet to take the plunge...
The Vinyl Adventure
16-02-2010, 21:22
in case anyone has missid the "whathifi...wtf..?" thread and marcos pointing out of the fact that you can comment on wtf's daft review of these cables... here is the link
http://whathifi.com/Review/Mark-Grant-G1000/UserReviews/ if you like the cables, back it up, and go and write something to help negate wtf's daftness :)
Welding cables are a good source for chunky copper cables and not that expensive per metre either
Welding cables do have a large cross section but they are not made with high purity copper. I have to confess that I have not tried using welding cables, so cannot speak from experience, but would not expect spectacular results.
Regards
Steve Toy
17-02-2010, 02:49
There are also skin effect issues of using solid core copper, never mind the issue of flexibility.
There are also skin effect issues of using solid core copper, never mind the issue of flexibility.
Hi Steve,
Would you like to run through the mirgrating skin effect 'issue' with relation to solid core cables (Copper and otherwise) and it's relevance within the audiable listening spectrum for the AOS guys please.
Thanks Mr.C
Steve Toy
17-02-2010, 09:50
I'll leave that one to you Tony.
Ali Tait
17-02-2010, 11:17
As far as I was aware,this does not happen at audio frequencies?
It doesn't happen at audio frequencies, but the 100KHz+ distortion caused in some wires may interfere with an amplifier's stability possibly...
Using good quality RF cables for audio isn't a totally bad thing, my Ecoflex 10 cable, welded into some large-body phono plugs sounds surprisingly like the G1000HD cables, although it's not at all flexible.
Dave Cawley
17-02-2010, 16:34
There are also skin effect issues of using solid core copper, never mind the issue of flexibility.
Hi Steve
What do you mean by skin effect?
Thanks
Dave
Steve Toy
17-02-2010, 17:05
I hate it when experts ask me questions to which they know the answers. I would prefer that they expand using their superior knowledge.
Dave Cawley
17-02-2010, 17:21
Yes and no? Steve, I have never experienced skin effect in audio. But from your statement above, clearly you have. So we are simply asking you to share your experience with us?
Thanks
Dave
technobear
17-02-2010, 19:13
http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/popcorn.gif
Stratmangler
17-02-2010, 20:01
I hate it when experts ask me questions to which they know the answers. I would prefer that they expand using their superior knowledge.
Come on Steve, admit it - you haven't got a clue about skin effect on audio signal transmission have you ? ;)
It's just some nice buzzword that sounds as if it might be appropriate.
I know bugger all about the subject, but you can't bullshit a bullshitter.
I rather suspect that Dave Cawley understands more about it than he's letting slip:eyebrows:
Chris:ner:
Has anyone listened to Mark Grant's XLR to XLR - Canare L4E6S star quad balanced cables? I've ordered a pair to replace my standard Belden XLRs between phono preamp and main preamp as I can't afford another pair of Kimbers at £1,299.64 for a 1m pair.
I know bugger all about the subject, but you can't bullshit a bullshitter.
I rather suspect that Dave Cawley understands more about it than he's letting slip:eyebrows:
Chris:ner:
Bullshit?? On a hi-fi forum??? Who could have thought it????:lol:
Stratmangler
18-02-2010, 12:14
Bullshit?? On a hi-fi forum??? Who could have thought it????:lol:
I know. Disgraceful, isn't it ?:eyebrows:
Chris:)
Yes and no? Steve, I have never experienced skin effect in audio. But from your statement above, clearly you have. So we are simply asking you to share your experience with us?
The truth about skin effect: Skin Effect Interview with Dr. Howard Johnson (http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/interview-with-dr-howard-johnson-about-skin-effect)
:popcorn:
I wish more of these people would post on audio forums, but I fear they either would get into bitter arguments or they're just not interested. Sadly, people like me (and Ash) who tend to relay things second hand get out of our depths quite easily as we don't know the full ins and outs of it all...
Dave Cawley
19-02-2010, 20:14
Mmmmmmmmmm Over to you Steve ?
Dave
I wish more of these people would post on audio forums, but I fear they either would get into bitter arguments or they're just not interested. Sadly, people like me (and Ash) who tend to relay things second hand get out of our depths quite easily as we don't know the full ins and outs of it all...
It all goes whooshing over my arty head I'm afraid. Anything with graphs in, forget it.
I wish more of these people would post on audio forums, but I fear they either would get into bitter arguments or they're just not interested.
"They are not interested" is my first guess. ;)
jandl100
20-02-2010, 08:57
Ooooo - this is all getting a bit heavy - as only AOS can!! :lol:
As t'was me that restarted this thread I'll post my initial thoughts on the cables ....
Plugged them in yesterday, so not 'run in' yet ... although running cables in may be as contentious as skin effects! :eyebrows:
Good. Very good. And way, way better than the old Canare LV61S cables - no mid grain, no emphasis on the treble, more transparency.
But I have some 5N purity silver cables that outdo them in terms of transparency, imaging presence & palpability, and tonal purity/neutrality. And the silver cables are cheaper.
Tbh, the silver cables (mine are XLR-terminated) can be a bit much in a system balance that already errs on the bright side of things - they can come across as a bit clinical.
The MG Precision cables are really very similar to my Hitachi OFC i/c's. (And they are excellent, and my faves in a brighter system).
In another current thread in this section Dave eloquently, and to my ears correctly, summarised cable improvements as ...
the sound becoming less smeared and cleaner, with a wider and less distorted frequency range and image if it's set up right.
and for me the MG Precision cables are a good step along the way. But there is (much?) more to be had, imho.
I'll give them a week or so more to 'run in' - I can do so in parallel to cables in use - but these may well be returned to sender.
IMO YMMV :)
Dave Cawley
20-02-2010, 09:07
5N purity silver cables, and XLR too! What are they?
Thanks
Dave
jandl100
20-02-2010, 09:13
5N purity silver cables, and XLR too! What are they?
Thanks
Dave
You may have felt that I was a bit circumspect about naming them. If so, you would be correct! :lol: I'm just sorting out an order for some RCA-terminated ones, after that's done I will reveal all. ;) (Btw, Dave, I've extended my previous post a bit with a quote from t'other Dave).
Dave Cawley
20-02-2010, 09:25
Hi Jerry
OK, could you PM me the details, please?
Thanks
Dave
Ali Tait
20-02-2010, 09:33
Me too please.
twelvebears
20-02-2010, 09:35
And me please Jerry.
Not me (silver doesn't fit). ;)
jandl100
20-02-2010, 10:04
Order sorted. :)
Here's the link to my fave silver cables, as previously mentioned. The link is for RCA-ed cables - but see his Other Items for XLRs and other lengths,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270533125522
:cool:
The price is very good indeed (for the type of cable), Jerry. :)
Order sorted. :)
Here's the link to my fave silver cables, as previously mentioned. The link is for RCA-ed cables - but see his Other Items for XLRs and other lengths,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270533125522
:cool:
Hi Jerry,
Those cables look VERY good indeed. I would expect them to sound a little more detailed and 'etched' at the top end than the Mark Grants, but with the latter, overall, perhaps sounding more expansive and fluid. Basically, it's the silver vs. copper difference.
I'll be very interested in your thoughts :cool:
Marco.
Here's the link to my fave silver cables, as previously mentioned
Jerry, the internals look rather like Homegrown Audio's silver cables. If so, I've made up a kit and used them and they're very impressive. See here:
http://www.homegrownaudio.com/hga/silver_lace.htm
Dave Cawley
20-02-2010, 12:18
Etched? What does that mean?
Dave
This guy also does silver cables and they use to be on sale or return if that helps anybody:)
I do have one of his bottom end ones but find it a bit forward sounding and needs to be matched accordingly, it appears that he doen't make the £75 that i have one any more though, he did have an Ebay account
He lives local to me and brought all his interconnects around and left them with me for a week or so, but at £500 and upwards they were not for me, nice guy to deal with though.
http://www.s-arrowcables.com/
Ian Walker
20-02-2010, 12:39
Etched? What does that mean?
Dave
He dosnt know it was just something Steve Toy said:lol:
It's confusing, because copper is the metal normally used for etchings.
Lol - very good, Joe! :eyebrows:
Etched? What does that mean?
Hi Dave,
'Etched', in a hi-fi sense, simply means an over-emphasis (imprinting) of the upper-frequencies on the sound, which generally spotlights treble detail and can give the (often false) impression of a superficially more 'exciting' and detailed sonic presentation.
This is what I often hear with silver or silver-plated cables against good quality solid copper ones. Much depends on the sonic signature of your system and/or individual preferences for music presentation as to which will produce the effect with music most pleasing to the ear.
Will that do? :)
Hugs and kisses,
Marco (who never uses hi-fi buzzwords unless he knows what he's talking about) ;)
jandl100
20-02-2010, 13:20
Hi Jerry,
Those cables look VERY good indeed. I would expect them to sound a little more detailed and 'etched' at the top end than the Mark Grants, but with the latter, overall, perhaps sounding more expansive and fluid. Basically, it's the silver vs. copper difference.
I'll be very interested in your thoughts :cool:
Marco.
I think it's tricky to 2nd guess these things - the 5N vs 4N purity makes a substantial difference from what I hear. I've never been convinced by 4N silver, finding it a bit grainy and, yes, etched. These 5N cables have more rez than the MG but are smooth and fluid, too. Not suitable for those whose systems lie on the bright side, though, as I said - these let it all thru! I'm afraid I think I just hear more music with those silver cables ....
Listening again this morning - Mark will def be getting a return on his ones. :(
Hi Jerry,
Yes it is tricky to second-guess these things, but that's what I've generally found :)
Thing is, ultimately, cables are rather system-dependant, so if the 5N cables do it better for you in your system, that's all that matters.
At least you tried the MGs and so can now put that to bed! :cool:
Marco.
jandl100
20-02-2010, 13:29
Anyone who is averse to silver care to take the MG cables off me for what I paid? ... £75 for a 1m pair. Still in mint nick with original packing. :) ... but then you'd miss out on the MG's refund promise, so might be best for someone who just wants another pair.
SOLD :)
Anyone who is averse to silver care to take the MG cables off me for what I paid? ... £75 for a 1m pair. Still in mint nick with original packing. :) ... but then you'd miss out on the MG's refund promise, so might be best for someone who just wants another pair.
I can, but in ten days. ;)
Jerry, just a quick question about the MGs...
how would you say they compare to the Hitachi LC-OFC ones?
I know I can get Mark's cables Sale or Return, but as someone who knows the Hitachi's well....how would you rate them in comparison?
Thanks
Gaz.
*EDIT*
Just reread your original post Jerry where you said the MGs were very similar to the Hitachis..
Dave Cawley
20-02-2010, 16:05
Hi Marco
I'm not sure any cable could "over-emphasis (imprinting) of the upper-frequencies". Cable cannot add gain, only provide attenuation. So to emphasise the top, it must attenuate the middle and bottom, I can't see any mechanism for that happening. Unless the source and subsequent load was in some way badly designed, and then different cables might sound different. But them those same cable would sound different again on a well matched system.
As ever, confused..............
Regards
Dave
Lol - well I can't put it any clearer, mate. That's what my experience and me ol' lug 'oles tell me, which you said were amongst the best you know ;)
Marco,
Lol - well I can't put it any clearer, mate. That's what me ol' lug 'oles tell me, which you said were amongst the best you know ;)
Marco,
I bet he says that to all the boys!
I know, and I wasn't even wearing my Loeffler Randall black leather mini skirt at the time! :lol:
Marco.
anthonyTD
20-02-2010, 16:22
Hi Marco
I'm not sure any cable could "over-emphasis (imprinting) of the upper-frequencies". Cable cannot add gain, only provide attenuation. So to emphasise the top, it must attenuate the middle and bottom, I can't see any mechanism for that happening. Unless the source and subsequent load was in some way badly designed, and then different cables might sound different. But them those same cable would sound different again on a well matched system.
As ever, confused..............
Regards
Dave
hi dave,
it is well accepted by most people who have experienced the affect of silver plated copper cables over plain copper conductors [or solid silver]that the silver plating alters the balance of the cable significantly in a lot of systems, making the performance of their system seemingly more forward sounding, especialy in the top end, to the point of rendering some systems un-listenable, IMHO using one solid metal type over a mixed type whether it be copper or silver makes for a much better and even frequency transfer between equipment.
A...
jandl100
20-02-2010, 16:50
Hi Marco
I'm not sure any cable could "over-emphasis (imprinting) of the upper-frequencies". Cable cannot add gain, only provide attenuation.
...........
As ever, confused..............
Regards
Dave
Hmmm .... I know where you are coming from, Dave. But I perceive very similar treble emphasis traits in some cables (especially, as Marco says, silver plated ones). I bet a penny to a pound that it's not measurable though! Some weird psychoacoustic effect? Whatever, I am convinced it happens! :)
Remember .... this is "audiophile hifi" - it doesn't have to make sense! :lol:
========
Jerry, just a quick question about the MGs...
how would you say they compare to the Hitachi LC-OFC ones?
I know I can get Mark's cables Sale or Return, but as someone who knows the Hitachi's well....how would you rate them in comparison?
Thanks
Gaz.
*EDIT*
Just reread your original post Jerry where you said the MGs were very similar to the Hitachis..
Yeah - very similar to the superb OFC Hitachi cables. Don't get me wrong; the MG Precision is a mighty fine cable!
I'm not sure any cable could "over-emphasis (imprinting) of the upper-frequencies". Cable cannot add gain, only provide attenuation. So to emphasise the top, it must attenuate the middle and bottom,
+1. That is my opinion, too. ;)
I received a pair of G1000hd this week;)....Next week i will be 2 lots of the 6 way multi channel G1000hd..And a dsp..2.5 power cable..Thats gets all the analogues out of the way:eyebrows:
jon
I think that the construction of the cable must make a difference too. Those four insulated silver strands plaited together must do something to the capacitance of the complete cable mustn't they?
The MG HD cables are a traditional double screened coax, nothing at all fancy. The sound seems to me to be straight down the line..
jandl100
20-02-2010, 22:49
As Marco has often posted - it's the sound that matters! ;)
Hi Dave,
From the website for Jerry's cables:
The conductors are then insulated in a larger PTFE/Teflon sleeve resulting in a predominantly air dielectric. Air is the best dielectric possible so loose insulation is ideal to minimise dielectric absorption. These are then carefully braided in a double balanced litz pattern resulting in maximum RF interference rejection.
After testing various diameters of wire and insulation, this combination gives least capacitance which means faster signal rise time. That is why the trebles in particular are so good with these interconnects.
I think these cables will be very good indeed and likely preferable in some systems to the MGs. It's good to have a choice - variety is the spice of life! :carrot: :hairmetal:
Marco.
"Faster signal rise time" ... I wish some would rather stick to their impressions rather than saying pseudo-scientific nonsense... :(
Never heard of a cable "rise time" : how is this measured ? :scratch:
Yup - it was the ultra-low capacitance thing that interested me, Dimitri, which is definitely a good thing, especially with valve amps :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
21-02-2010, 08:33
For valve amplifiers with relatively high output impedances, low capacitance may be an advantage.
But no real screening is not good as it can let all sorts of things in that will cause intermediation distortion, and this often manifest itself as extra information; information that was never there in the first place, hence some people express a preference for this!
Regards
Dave
Yes, the capacitance is certainly a factor, but I think without measuring it's difficult to say which cable has less capacitance...
The capacitance doesn't depend on the type of cable (copper or silver or whatever) but its surface, insulation type and distance.
If I remember properly a single insulated wire has less than 0,1nF... this is pretty low already. ;)
Multiple wires have always more capacitance, actually...
jandl100
21-02-2010, 08:39
Yup - it was the ultra-low capacitance thing that interested me, Dimitri, which is definitely a good thing, especially with valve amps :)
Marco.
Marco - if you like I'll send you on a pair of RCA-plugged silver jobbies to try when I get the ones I have just ordered. Quite a different sound to the MG, and, as I have said previously, quite system dependent, ime. :)
Marco - if you like I'll send you on a pair of RCA-plugged silver jobbies to try when I get the ones I have just ordered. Quite a different sound to the MG, and, as I have said previously, quite system dependent, ime.
Hi Jerry, yup, that would be ace, as I'd like to try them just to see what effect they have in my system :)
Cables are most certainly system dependent. I'm very confident that the Mark Grants would be one of the best solutions in most systems, *but* that doesn't mean that other cables won't be more effective somewhere else.
Guys,
There is no universal cable solution - one must remain open-minded and judge these things on a system-to-system basis...
Jerry, I presume you've still got my address from before? :cool:
Marco.
I am open-minded : all silver cables sound rather unbalanced in my room compared to copper ones.
I've tried all possible combinations (source, amps) and with different types of amps.
Speaker cables with silver had the same effect. I even kept one for four months, just to be sure it wasn't a "temporary" impression...
So, no silver for my room and my taste. :)
But my room and tastes are only valid for me. ;)
Experience so far suggests I agree with you, Dimitri - but with audio, I close the door on nothing ;)
Marco.
Yes, the capacitance is certainly a factor, but I think without measuring it's difficult to say which cable has less capacitance...
The capacitance doesn't depend on the type of cable (copper or silver or whatever) but its surface, insulation type and distance.
If I remember properly a single insulated wire has less than 0,1nF... this is pretty low already. ;)
Multiple wires have always more capacitance, actually...
This doesn't make much sense Demitri. Capacitance is a property that relates to a pair of conductors. If referred to the earth (terra firma), then it depends on the separation between the wire and the earth. If we have an insulated wire suspended over a groundplane, then the distance to the ground plane is important. In all cases, the length of the wire needs to be known as well.
0.1nF = 100pF; a reasonably low capacitance. When used with an amplifier with an input impedance of say 50K Ohm, the rise time would be 50us, that is a -3dB point at ~32kHz.
Regards
Dave Cawley
21-02-2010, 11:46
I thought the output impedance would dominate the rise time calculation?
Dave
This doesn't make much sense Demitri. Capacitance is a property that relates to a pair of conductors.
You mean a single interconnect is not already a pair of conductors ? :scratch:
It's all this impedance/capacitance thing that probably dictates why different wires may or may not suit different equipment. I wish I was engineer enough to work these things out. No foo, just sensible calculations.....
You mean a single interconnect is not already a pair of conductors ? :scratch:
Dimitri,
You quoted "... a single insulated wire...". I assumed you meant just that, not a pair of conductors as used in an interconnect. Sorry, I misunderstood.
I would agree that 100pF is a typical capacitance value for a 1m long interconnect.
Dave,
I should have said time constant, which is the product CR. The output impedance of a source is usually much less than the input impedance of an amplifier, so using the output impedance would suggest a smaller time constant.
Regards
It wasn't your fault, I am not precice enough as I'm not a specialist, sorry.
Dave Cawley
21-02-2010, 19:26
The output impedance of a source is usually much less than the input impedance of an amplifier, so using the output impedance would suggest a smaller time constant.
Hi Barry, my point exactly!
Dave
Hi Jerry,
Those cables look VERY good indeed. I would expect them to sound a little more detailed and 'etched' at the top end than the Mark Grants,
Marco.
Marco, these are pretty much like the home made cables I brought round. There are a few old articles on TNT audio on how to make your own using a few methods of construction. Mine where based on 5 cell air core dialectic with a Teflon outer and cost about £20 to make in parts.
I noticed a few people have gone into business making these cables based on the original TNT articles, they are that good.
Swamp
Hi David,
I thought they looked similar! I was impressed with those, so it'll be interesting having a listen to the ones Jerry sends, over a longer period of time :)
Marco.
Also as Dave C said earlier, a cable cannot have any gain so if the mids and highs seem boosted or 'etched' the cables are just letting more info through with less effect of C and L at these frequencies compared to a braided cable.
My diy cables are < 20pF were most braided screen cables are around 100pF. Be aware that these cables do not work well between pre and power from my own experience were a good screened cable is needed. Also since they do not have a full screen they are best kept as short as possible.
I'll bear that in mind :)
Marco.
My diy cables are < 20pF were most braided screen cables are around 100pF. Be aware that these cables do not work well between pre and power from my own experience were a good screened cable is needed. Also since they do not have a full screen they are best kept as short as possible.
Any chance of a link or a pointer so i can make some up, Cheers
jandl100
22-02-2010, 09:34
I can't help thinking that it's the 5N purity of the silver that makes the difference with those silver cables of mine. I have had 4N purity silver cables (which is what most hifi cables use) and find them a touch grainy and etched - to my ears these 5N's don't do that at all - a much purer and cleaner sound with, tbh, amazing clarity and transparency. We'll see what Marco thinks when I send my RCA-ed ones on to him once I get them.
Hi Jerry,
I look forward to having a listen and suspect I will like them, as I did Dave's, which appear very similar :)
The only thing is (and I doubt it'll apply in my system) is that the "cleaner sound with amazing clarity and transparency" can, in systems that aren't as well-balanced as yours or mine, tip the sound towards bright and forward, just as in the wrong system (such as the WHF one) Mark's cables could be mistakenly perceived as "jumbled and confused" and "lacking cohesion and definition, ending up as a soggy, pulpy mass".
That's why cables are so bloody system-dependant! :rolleyes: ;)
I still maintain, however, that an essentially neutral and 'well behaved' cable, such as the G1000HDs, will perform superbly well in a most decent systems (although you may have your own equally good favourite). If however they sound as WHF described, then there is a major imbalance somewhere, or your system is just plain shit!!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
to my ears these 5N's don't do that at all - a much purer and cleaner sound with, tbh, amazing clarity and transparency
That's what I find with my hybrid silver/copper Kimber Selects - they are highly detailed but smooth without a trace of harshness. I don't seem to suffer from the 'silver shriek' that some systems have.
Steve Toy
22-02-2010, 10:58
Basically, given the nature of the listening room at WHF Towers so I've been informed, if they recommend an interconnect it will likely take your ears off.
Any chance of a link or a pointer so i can make some up, Cheers
I can't seem to find the original article, looks like it has been removed or moved, but these are similar...
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm
The dialectic can be simple teflon tube like this guy uses, or cotton piping.
Thanks swampy,i will read it in depth later
Another outlet for Mark grant cables..nice to see:http://www.crtprojectors.co.uk/oppo_bdp83se.htm
jon
I received two lengths of G1000HD today. Replacing my 0.5m SUT to phono pre, I heard tonight exactly the same effect that Marco, Steve and I heard two weeks ago, that time replacing a 0.5m Profigold OFC cable and this time around a 0.5m Fisual Havana cable (I've also tried a QED Qunex 1 in this position). The sense of dynamic freedom and sheer rhythm with the MG is amazing. It seems that this connection (CineMag step-up transformer to Whest preamp) is the most critical in my system, being high impedance. It won't stand for any unshielded cable, as I found out when I tried a Homegrown Silver Lace unshielded which hummed horribly.
I've just put the 1m Beresford Caiman to Pass Labs preamp length in place and will listen to that over the next few days, primarily from Sky HD which sounds superb.
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