View Full Version : New Mark Grant G1000HD Precision cables
Jerry kindly loaned me the 5N silver cables he got from E-Bay, they are incredibley tranparent, smooth with good depth and l have to say they are the best cables l have yet heard and for the money are great VFM( l use a Class A amp and Technics SL1200/ Stanton 681EEE, which are warm sounding, for the money £50 they are amazing, oh and did l mention that they are dynamic and very musical, if you are a detail freak you will love these cables:).
chris@panteg
15-03-2010, 11:10
I have just ordered a G1000HD to replace my Cambridge Azur reference , why ? .
Well i decided ' after reading Steve's excellent review and also Marco's finding's to do an AB comparison with my other cable ' a Translucent ' from Paul Greenfield of Classic sounds (Leicester).
I have been using the Azur on my 640p since i bought it and the 1210 .
I just did a straight swap CD and Phono stage ' and soon found that to my ears the Azur
seems to have a thick and recessed quality ' listening to Nick Drake ' a treasury ' he sounded vague compared to the translucent ' which sounding much more vivid and better defined .
There is also a much greater sense of acoustic space around everything ' more open if you like ' the Azur just sounds a bit bland really , this comparison has left me in no doubt i need something better ;)
I strongly suspect the Azur is designed to work with something very bright and forward sounding but i could be mistaken ' either way its going to be relegated to my cheap and cheerful techy tuner.
So i have taken the plunge for a Mark Grant ' looking forward to it:)
jantheman
15-03-2010, 11:50
Well Chris...I took the plunge on 1 set and a week later I ended up with 4. Hope you like them as much as I did.
chris@panteg
15-03-2010, 12:02
Thanks Ray ' i feel a positive vibe about them:)
You're going to love it, Chris.
No need to go into raptures about them. They do the job, are made using decent bits and aren't too highly priced, although there are some really excellent value interconnects on eBay for under £20 for a metre pair..
I've forgotten my MG1000HD's are there and the system sounds lovely to me...
There are also some dogs out there purporting to be hi-fi interconnects. It's a minefield and you could end up with cables that seriously hamper your system's performance (one example: Profigold). It's hard to compare cables or try-before-you-buy, but don't underestimate their effect.
chris@panteg
16-03-2010, 11:58
Got the Mark Grant today ' and managed to have a listen before work .
Well i was quite keen i can tell you ' and low and behold ' what a difference i played side 2 of Brothers in arms , please don't laugh it was just to hand so i stuck it on the techie ,
straight away its a much more focused and vivid presentation ' more open with a greater sense of dynamic headroom , there was an extra feeling of slam in the bass .
Next up was JJ Cale Shades ' a cool album if ever there was !
Loads more detail and clarity and tonally richer ' the Azur seems a bit thick sounding by comparison.
The best and important bit to me though was tonal colour ' it makes the Azur sound a bit black and white , an oft used term but when you hear the difference you sort of understand ' the way different instruments have there own character and tone ' .
I also would say it wipes the floor with the Translucent (Paul Greenfield) cable i have ' which sounds just a touch too smooth , and the MG has not even burned in yet ! .
So chuffed to bits ' i sort of thought i would be though and i am not dissapointed :)
So anyone thinking of trying one ' do so today ' do it now :)
jantheman
16-03-2010, 13:09
So Chris....you gonna get some more????
straight away its a much more focused and vivid presentation ' more open with a greater sense of dynamic headroom , there was an extra feeling of slam in the bass .
That's it precisely, Chris.
I know it sounds silly even hearing myself enthuse about the difference 0.5m of the stuff made between my SUT and phono preamp, but it really did make exactly the differences you noted. I'm hearing improvements in my DAC to preamp run, too.
That's it for me and the G1000HD as I have no more single-ended runs. My Kimber Selects still rule supreme for the balanced runs, but their prices are eye-watering!
The prices asked are the main shortcoming of many Kimber leads, although I remember some of their speaker cables being highly capacitive.
The high-end stuff is very good though, Dave. As an aside (call it today's 'factoid' :)), Kimber cable is used as the internal wiring for the £108,000 Cabasse La Sphère speakers. I just thought I'd throw that one into the mix....
I certainly wouldn't pay the prices Kimber charge though for their really good stuff. My days of using expensive cables are over, having heard what Mark Grant stuff does. I'm afraid that I don't get a warm glow from owning (vastly overpriced) 'boutique' cables, unlike some other 'audiophiles'. I'm not referring to anyone here, incidentally.
I'll just about go to £50 a metre, for the likes of the VDH speaker cable I use, but that's my limit. The highest SPPV is where it's at for me now. It's simply a much more comfortable feeling knowing that you haven't got thousands of pounds tied up in cables, especially when the outcome, sonically, is better too and you can put the change in the bank... I do so love win-wins! :eyebrows:
Martin,
Next time I'm down, I'll bring some £45 Mark Grant mains leads with me and we can compare them to your Kimbers. I suspect that the results will be interesting ;)
Marco.
Dave
The problem with Kimber is that the base price is high but then Russ Andrews does the typical £ for $ pricing, making the imported price even higher. Also, the prices have risen so much in the past few years that I could have put all my money into Kimber Selects and made much more than on any stock market. I need one more length and I'm seriously considering buying it from Needle Doctor in the USA as, even with import duty, it'll cost less. Sadly I have never heard a better interconnect and I'm not willing to drop my standards :(
Marco
That would be an interesting comparison as my Kimber Powerkords are based on the more reasonable 8TC speaker cable. Unfortunately, it's not easy to swap the Chord power cable as it uses a 15A Hubbel connector. Would be interesting to try the preamp and SACD player, though.
Yup, Martin we can definitely do that and I'd be curious to know the outcome. I don't know about you, but I certainly couldn't detect any degradation in sound quality when we swapped over to my kit at yours and used the Mark Grant mains leads to power it… :)
Sadly I have never heard a better interconnect and I'm not willing to drop my standards...
Quite right too, however if you didn't have to use balanced connections, I'd wager that the G1000HDs would be every bit as good as any of the Kimber single-ended varieties on the market ;)
Marco.
The high-end stuff is very good though, Dave. As an aside (call it today's 'factoid' :)), Kimber cable is used as the internal wiring for the £108,000 Cabasse La Sphère speakers. I just thought I'd throw that one into the mix....
Yawn............;)
I don't need a willy extension in the form of a very expensive stereo and I'd like to know how Cabasse can justify such enormous profit margins. It's not as if they use the most precious of metals or fibres in its construction. merely, they have an interesting design that is priced and will be bought by the crisis-immune uber-riche as statements for their obscene lifestyles..
So there...............:mental:
however if you didn't have to use balanced connections
I don't have to, however I prefer balanced connections where the equipment is constructed internally in a fully balanced configuration.
Lol - I wouldn't grudge anyone buying what they can afford, Dave.
Also, I've heard the speakers concerned at Whittlebury Hall last year, and they were quite superb; probably in my top five of über-high-end speakers on the market.
However, I still preferred the (mere £8k) Aspara HL1s on the end of Guy Sergeant's superb demo system: http://www.asparaacoustics.co.uk/hl1_concept.php
It remains as *THE* best sound I've heard at a show to date! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Martin,
I don't have to, however I prefer balanced connections where the equipment is constructed internally in a fully balanced configuration.
Yup, that's kind of what I meant by "have to". Your kit has been voiced to perform optimally in a balanced configuration, so the G1000HDs would always lose out from that perspective...
However, what I'm saying is that taking the advantages of balanced configuration (if you see it that way - I know you do, but my experience in this area makes me less convinced) out of the equation, I'd wager that the G1000HDs were just as good as anything Kimber make, comparing single-ended with single-ended :)
Marco.
I'd like to know how Cabasse can justify such enormous profit margins.
I'm not even sure Cabasse makes any margins at all on such speakers... ;)
When you know the costs of the specialists involved, the time spend, the necessary equipment and all the rest (shows, etc), I'm even sure not only they make no money, but they even pay for them.
The sellers make money, not Cabasse.
I'm sure that even after all the above, they don't cost £50K to make - sorry, they're made for profit as much as anything else, or they're pretty bad businessmen IMO.. Even having the boss to come to your home to set them up........... Alan Shaw of harbeth would do that with his active 40.1's and I don't think they're £10K the pair..
You know Dave, in France a specialist costs (easily) £15k/month. How many working months is this project worth ?
The building materials is not much, I agree.
I'm with you on the ridiculous cost thing, Dave, but at least the La Sphère deliver where it matters in terms of sound quality, unlike some 'statement' products from other manufacturers, which in the final analysis are little more than audiophile jewellery.
Marco.
chris@panteg
16-03-2010, 22:47
So Chris....you gonna get some more????
Oh yes i think another G1000HD and a mains cable for starters ' :)
Steve Toy
17-03-2010, 02:46
I'd wager that Cabasse actually lose money on each pair of la Sphere just as VW lose 1.5 million on each Bugatti Veyron car sold for a million apiece.
"I'd wager that Cabasse actually lose money on each pair of la Sphere "
So in reality we are doing the company a favour by not buying them.
So in reality we are doing the company a favour by not buying them.
No, that's not what loss leaders or flagship models are all about.
What some of you may not be aware of is that for decqades, audio has been the poor relation. Free dems, free advice (as on here) and then many of the worst culprits (who used to be known around friendly dealers near each other) went and bought either second hand or at discount somewhere else..
Some dealer friends suggested charging for dems - not much, but enough to make it worthwhile, this cost coming off the bill of sale. Didn't go down too well..
"Experts" charging £15K per MONTH is, to me at present, one of the reasons "we" are in the financial mess we're currently in. These fat cats take the cream and leave the sour milk for everyone else.....
Gawd I'm in a mood this breakfast-time. Apologies all.......
The Grand Wazoo
17-03-2010, 07:58
"Experts" charging £15K per MONTH ......
Of course, as everyone knows:
An 'ex' is a has-been
and
A 'spurt' is an uncontrollable drip
Ammonite Audio
24-03-2010, 10:37
Fiddling around with my Leben CS-600 amp has meant fiddling with RCA type interconnects, since I was using balanced interfaces before on vinyl and all-digital on CD. The MIT AVt1 cable that I bought from Jerry is not really my cup of tea, so I took a punt on a set of Mark Grants, mainly since Marco's system sounded so good with them. Although the cables are new, there is a nice, rounded, 'wholeness' to the sound. I did initially wonder where the top end had gone, but it is there alright, just nicely balanced with the rest of the frequency range. So, initial impressions are very good - good enough to have ordered another RCA cable and a mains lead too.
I have to say that Mark Grant's service is excellent, too.
Ammonite Audio
30-03-2010, 15:04
Bizarrely, there is a huge difference between the 0.5m and 0.75m Mark Grant G1000HD cables. The longer cable sounds much more relaxed and natural, where the 0.5m cable is brash and actually rather difficult to listen through. That one's going back to Mark Grant. Thank goodness he has a straightforward returns policy.
Bizarre indeed, Shuggs!
I use a 0.5m G1000HD between my CDP and DAC, and a 1m length of the same cable between my pre and power amp, and there's nothing "brash" about the sound whatsoever... Indeed, this is exactly what you listened to when you came up and were so impressed with :scratch:
I have also noticed no discernable difference between the 0.5m and 1m lengths when compared side-by-side.
Have you still got the cable? If so, try reversing the directionality.
Marco.
Could be a badly made one? My 0.5m length between SUT and phono pre is superb.
Ammonite Audio
30-03-2010, 16:34
Could be a badly made one? My 0.5m length between SUT and phono pre is superb.
Who knows? Maybe Mark will test it (he does know it's going back!)
Have you still got the cable? If so, try reversing the directionality
Yes I have still got it, at least until it goes in the post tomorrow. I won't trouble myself with changing the cable direction, as the GCPH/Lyngdorf combo clearly prefers balanced connections. Mark has told me that there is a new improved balanced cable coming along very soon, and once that's on his website I shall give it a whirl.
Peter Stockwell
09-04-2010, 08:31
I just added the G1000HD cables to my mongrel system, but based around Naim. I have a 282 preamp so I can use RCA connector cables. I have a G1000HD digital cable, that I could not readily distingush from the Mike Homar cable I was using, I added the G100HD (1.2m) cbales instead of the AR sound Greenlink 2.
So I switched an RCA to DIN unshielded cable for two shielded RCA cables, and into a different input on my pre-amp. I'd never used the RCA inputs before, having pretty much takenthe Naim mantra "Din is better" as gospel.
I was very pleasantly surprised. I'd been coming around to the conclusion that the Audiocom CDX/XPS and Hiline connection was more cohesive and engaging than the Squeezebox/TeddySB3PS/Lite Dac-ah/AR Green link. In A-B comparisons they were so close that I couldn't really tell a difference.
The G1000HD freshly plugged in, was clearer, more finely lit than, the AR Sound and more importantly the engagement, or groove, factor racked up a notch or two. With the G1000HD in place I'm looking forward to everything settling down, and i'm expecting that the Squeezebox choice to be a step ahead of the physical CD spinner.
I think Anthony really nailed the description, so i'll repeat it here:
they have excellent detail retrieval and are very fast, bass weight and depth is good, imaging is solid etc, however they are quite merciless when dealing with less than desirable recordings” then I realised that what I was hearing was not the cables but in fact the traits of my current system setup! In other words these cables don’t really add any significant character that is worth describing, they just let you hear what’s happening in your system as a whole’ good or bad
A great buy!
Peter Stockwell
09-04-2010, 08:31
I just added the G1000HD cables to my mongrel system, based around Naim. I have a 282 preamp so I can use RCA connector cables. I have a G1000HD digital cable, that I could not readily distingush from the Mike Homar cable I was using, I added the G100HD (1.2m) cbales instead of the AR sound Greenlink 2.
I switched an RCA to DIN unshielded cable for two shielded RCA cables, and into a different input on my pre-amp. I'd never used the RCA inputs before, having pretty much taken the Naim mantra "Din is better" as gospel.
I was very pleasantly surprised. I'd been coming around to the conclusion that the Audiocom CDX/XPS and Hiline connection was more cohesive and engaging than the Squeezebox/TeddySB3PS/Lite Dac-ah/AR Green link. In A-B comparisons they were so close that I couldn't really tell a difference.
The G1000HD freshly plugged in, was clearer, more finely lit than, the AR Sound and more importantly the engagement, or groove, factor racked up a notch or two. With the G1000HD in place I'm looking forward to everything settling down, and I'm expecting that the Squeezebox choice to be a step ahead of the physical CD spinner.
I think Anthony really nailed the description, so i'll repeat it here:
they have excellent detail retrieval and are very fast, bass weight and depth is good, imaging is solid etc, however they are quite merciless when dealing with less than desirable recordings” then I realised that what I was hearing was not the cables but in fact the traits of my current system setup! In other words these cables don’t really add any significant character that is worth describing, they just let you hear what’s happening in your system as a whole’ good or bad
A great buy!
What gets me is why Naim still advocate UNSCREENED cables. they obviously don't have taxi's or fire-engines' radios causing bother as I had at the time. I also believe they're no longer recommending using the locks on their plugs, which they used to make such a huge issue about. Is this true?
Peter Stockwell
09-04-2010, 11:34
Dave,
I don't know. I'm such a heretic with my Teddy and Avondale gear that the naim signature, a mid bass bump that gives more drive, superficially, to the music, has all but dissappeared.
I was using an AR Sound Greenlink 2 which I consider better than a Flashback RCA to Din. I think the G1000HDs are easily on a par with a Hiline, but it's not easy, for me, to make a direct comparison.
Wonder if Crown advocate SCREENED or UNSCREENED cables?
Dave, do Crown say anything in their manual ?
I also believe they're no longer recommending using the locks on their plugs, which they used to make such a huge issue about. Is this true?
Yes, that's true. They never made a 'huge issue' about it with me, but I would agree that it is a significant alteration in stance.
Just bought a Mark Grant G1000HD Coaxial Digital Cable to span the gap between my CDP and Beresford DAC and it is a very nice cable. It looks fantastic, feels well made, and more importantly sounds great to my ears. Can't compare it to other cables as I don't own any other digital cables. But I am deffo gonna replace my van den hul interconnects with G1000HD.
Also great service and fast delivery too!
Butuz
Steve Toy
14-04-2010, 12:30
I've found that VDH digital interconnects work better with more resolution.
I use the G1000HDs eleswhere.
Wonder if Crown advocate SCREENED or UNSCREENED cables?
Dave, do Crown say anything in their manual ?
Late reply, but Crown recommend SHIELDED audio cables tied parallel along their length.....
By the way and to answer damping factor questions raised elsewhere, the output impedance of a D-60 used as a stereo amp is 0.01 Ohms up to 200Hz, then rising gently to 0.02 Ohms at 1KHz, then 0.2 Ohms at 12KHz approx. As I recall, one doubles these figures for bridged operation as I'm using...
Busybee330
17-04-2010, 18:27
Hi everyone . First post in the AOS forum .
Do you think that a MG G1000HD stereo cable would work well between a Beresford Caiman and a Little Dot MkIII , the LD being used either as a headphone amp for a Sennheiser HD650 , or as a preamp ?
Thank you .
Bernard
The Vinyl Adventure
17-04-2010, 18:47
Give it a go, you can always send it back if you don't like it!
Busybee330
17-04-2010, 20:09
Fair enough :)
I was hoping to get something from the high-end knowledge around here though :)
Steve Toy
22-04-2010, 00:52
'Fraid you'll have to use your own ears. That's what this place is about. However, The G1000HDs get the fundamentals of music reproduction right in that they don't screw up your system like some.
Good retrieval of dynamics and harmonics too.
Added to that, extremely good deep bass reproduction and natural tonality. I use one between my Caiman and preamp.
I held off on this one till I had a good listen to the cable.
An alternative point of view I suppose...?
I've has the MG cable for a couple of months now on loan, and I've been directly comparing it with a Hitachi LC-OFC cable that some of you may have heard of.
I ran the MG for a week or so and got used to the sound..then swapped back to the Hitachi and lived with that for a while.
To counteract "audio memory" from kicking in, the relevant way to tell was m immediate gut reaction when swapping the cable over and listening to the same song.
Within the last couple of months a few changes have occured in my system and I have continued to swap the cables over,basically when I could be bothered.
I've had my Dac upgraded and recently slotted in an Squeezebox Touch to replace my SB3 which I passed on to fund my Touch.
Bi of a delay with the Touch, so had gotten used to the sound of my DVD player playing mp3 through my Dac.
So fair to say the cables have had a few different environments to work in..
I've concluded through all this.....the Hitachi is better in my system.
Initially the MG seemed to be more "realistic" sounding with the little details easier to ge your attention, but whilst the sound was very open it seemed after extended listening to be a bit clinical sounding..I wasn't really getting into the "song" if you know what I mean?
With the SB3 I found the MG to slightly more open and detailed....but the Hitachi I enjoyed more..better bass and a "sweeter" top end, which made listening more enjoyable.
With the Dvd player...no difference
With the Touch (what a step up from the Sb3!) the MG sounded too lean and airy..a bit mechanical sounding even.
The Hitachi just makes music sound like music..just as clear and open but with a more natural quality to vocals. Also vocals stand out from the soundstage in a very solid way that just isn't the case with the other cable.
Suppose the MG sounds more "hifi". It seems to present the music in front of you rather than invite you in to enjoy it?
My theory is maybe the more transparent beresford dac I have now with the Touch, which honestly as a transport is fantastic, is letting me hear more of what the cables sound signature is?
The Hitachi isn't coloured, it's not that, but to me in my system it just adds weight to the performance...not the hifi stuff, but the song and the performance.
To me, that's what it's all about.
I gave it a fair crack, but I'm sending the MG back and I'd say to anyone get a hold of a Hitachi cable and at least TRY it.
They pop up on eBay now and again and they just might be exactly what your lookin for.
The MG is a great cable though, and it's presentation may suit your tastes better.
Ali Tait
23-04-2010, 14:07
Gaz,Any chance of hanging on to it till you come over? I'd like to hear it against this silver cable I bought on Jerry's recommendation.It would have to be good to beat it. Bring the Hitachi too please!
Gaz,Any chance of hanging on to it till you come over? I'd like to hear it against this silver cable I bought on Jerry's recommendation.It would have to be good to beat it. Bring the Hitachi too please!
Sure mate, no worries. :)
Will do.
A while back I was looking at the silver Ebay cables Jerry suggested as well, not to buy (unless it beat the Hitachi's of course), so will be good to have a chance to compare.
Cheers
Gaz
The Hitachi wires were one of the first to use LCOFC weren't they?
I bought a Van Damme 1m interconnect for under £15 from SoundStable on eBay a few weeks ago. decent quality and good gauge of conductors, foamed poly whatsit insulation and the basic Neutrik/Rean phonos. Good stuff and all many would need to be honest and in my opinion.
I know what you mean about the more "explicit" treble, but despite a slight peak in the HF1300 tweets at 10 - 14KHz, it's not a problem here. I still find the midrange sublime and three dimensional and the bass extension is superb (but I have to listen in another room further away to fully appreciate it :eyebrows:
I liked the VDH D103 but the carbon loaded First and Second always sounded muted and "one level" across the range to me.....
Busybee330
24-04-2010, 22:35
Thank you , guys .
Got my MG G1000HD stereo cable this Friday .
adventuresinhifiaudio.com
03-06-2010, 00:08
Hi Guys
Having now finished a formal review of these cables I can now reveal that Adventures in High Fidelity Audio.com has just awarded them the first AIHFA Amazing Value Award.
You can read more here http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/02/06/2010/mark-grant-g1000hd-are-these-cables-as-good-as-some-say-they-are/
Enjoy :)
Regards Neil
Balanced connection via XLRs, if available, always sounds superior to my ears over single-ended. Your tests using the MG cables with XLR-RCA adapters were using your system in sub-optimal mode as the line was effectively single-ended and it's possible that the -ve connection was not even correctly grounded. This would be considerably worse than just using single-ended phono connections and is not relevant.
As single-ended cables, the MGs are the best I've heard even including some expensive Kimber single-ended cables. I would agree that they tend towards a slight warmth but it's very small and no bad thing at all. I use sets for digital (DAC to pre) and analogue (SUT to phono pre) and its application is equally good.
I would love to try proper balanced versions of the G1000HD if MG ever gets to developing them.
twelvebears
03-06-2010, 06:53
I would love to try proper balanced versions of the G1000HD if MG ever gets to developing them.
I've recently had two pairs of balanced XLR cables which Mark made up from double lengths of the G1000HD cable, which I imagine was rather difficult.
While they were very good, they were definately bettered by the brand-new high quality silver/copper/Teflon XLR cable that he has just started selling.
In addition to sounding slightly better (perhaps slightly to the analytical side of neutral compared with the G1000HD), the new cable made for a more usable XLR. Short-ish XLRs made from double heat-shrunk G1000HD don't want to bend!
If anyone gets a chance (I think you already have some Martin), I recommend checking the new XLR cable out.
adventuresinhifiaudio.com
03-06-2010, 08:10
Balanced connection via XLRs, if available, always sounds superior to my ears over single-ended. Your tests using the MG cables with XLR-RCA adapters were using your system in sub-optimal mode as the line was effectively single-ended and it's possible that the -ve connection was not even correctly grounded. This would be considerably worse than just using single-ended phono connections and is not relevant.
As single-ended cables, the MGs are the best I've heard even including some expensive Kimber single-ended cables. I would agree that they tend towards a slight warmth but it's very small and no bad thing at all. I use sets for digital (DAC to pre) and analogue (SUT to phono pre) and its application is equally good.
I would love to try proper balanced versions of the G1000HD if MG ever gets to developing them.
Hi Martin
Thank you for your comments.
However as I stated during the text of the review I was well aware of the superiority of using balanced connections if the equipment being used is true differential in design and not transformer coupled (rarely does that offer a superior sound to RCA outputs). The sound via the XLR adaptors was actually very good and not obviously flawed so my decision to change power amplifier from the Music Reference RM200 was based in the main on wanting to give the G1000HD cables the best opportunity to shine and not because there was an issue with the sound. To remove any doubts of mine or a reader (such as yourself) I opted for an amplifier that had RCA connection and sounded excellent used that way. So a Meridian G56 was selected (an item I had already reviewed and thanks to Kevin I was able to borrow again) both for its excellent sound and also as it matches the pre-amplifier, perhaps better than the RM200 (though it sounds excellent used with the Meridian G02) and is the pre-amplifiers natural partner; both in fact and as intended by Meridian.
I had hoped that these decisions and my motivation for the changes were clearly presented during the text of the review and in fact had little to do with the subsequent use of an XLR cable which created an unequal advantage to the Atlas Marvos cable, which was down to the superiority of dual differential balanced technology and not that the Atlas Marvos cable happened to be terminated with an XLR plug. I should point out in saying that that the XLR plug does have certain mechanical advantages to an RCA plug but in and off themselves as mentioned earlier would not create such a large swing in sound quality, in my opinion and past experience.
I mentioned this during the review simply to challenge those who use RCA cables to hook up such equipment. In the main because they either can't be bothered to buy new cables or can't afford them. Not using XLR terminated cables in such cases will in my experience mean they are not hearing these components or system as it can and will sound. I like to try and challenge apathy in audio set up where I can and thus included these elements to the review in order to do that. Perhaps the text does not make that fully clear so may need revised.
I agree that the G1000HD cables are excellent in the context of the review system and may well be in other systems. As I have not heard Kimber to any great extent in my system so I can't comment more on that.
During the course of the review period Mark and I chatted via email and he revealed that he is working on a G1000HD balanced cable and he hopes to be able to release these soon. As he uses a coax cable for the G1000HD he has faced the same problems Audience (AU24 is a coax cable) had when trying to create an XLR version of a successful RCA cable design, where the cable used does not easily adapt to an XLR use.
Once again thank you for taking the time to read the review.
Regards Neil
The superiority of fully balanced lines *used in short domestic runs* is more to do with bad single-ended impedance matching IMO. use an amp input with a decently high input impedance (47K minimum) and many of the se type cable differences tend to fade into insignificance, the quality of the conductors becomes more important as long as the capacitance os kept low.
I'm glad Mark is doing the balanced silver plated cable. If it's anything like the cables he sent me, it's good, with a manageable amount of the "silver plated" crispness which seems to have disappeared now (unless I've just got used to it :))
Excellent review, Neil. I fully concur with your observations :)
The G1000HDs do have a subtle sonic signature of their own, in terms of imparting a soupçon of tonal richness on proceedings, but as Martin says, in most systems that will be no bad thing. What they have though is coherence in abundance and a magical way with music.
They are, however, still one of the most neutral sounding cables I've heard (I've been through 100s of different varieties over the years), and given the level of performance on offer, the G1000HDs are quite frankly an amazing bargain. Their relative neutrality also means they are likely to compliment the majority of sonically well-sorted systems, and it is precisely this that will ensure their continued success and in time allow them to become a major contender worldwide in the audio cable market.
AOS will certainly be doing all it can to help that happen, as hard-working, customer-focussed small businesses, such as Mark's, deserve to be rewarded!
It also ably demonstrates just how much more one pays for 'badge' cables, which don't necessarily perform any better (and often worse) than properly designed bullshit-free cables, based on solid engineering principles, such as the G1000HDs - as both Steve Toy and me discovered with Siltech and Transparent cables respectively!
Advantages of balanced connection aside, I'd say to Martin I'm confident that the G1000HDs are as good as or if not better than anything Kimber make (at a mere fraction of the price), so when Mark finalises the design of his balanced cables, Martin will have some significant pocket money to make when he says bye-bye to his overpriced Kimbers, and embraces a full interconnect cable loom of G1000HDs! ;)
I would add though that those seeking to extract the most from the G1000HDs (in terms of single-ended connection) should try a version with either the Neutrik Pro-fi or WBT plugs fitted (both of which Mark offers at extra cost), as this elevates their audio performance to a notably higher level and maximises the intrinsic sonic qualities of the bespoke G1000HD cable itself.
So, Neil - when are you selling your Mavros cables and replacing them with G1000HDs and pocketing the profit? :eyebrows: ;)
Next you need to review Mark's (utterly superb) mains leads, particularly the Furutech-modified variety, which I think are set to take the hi-end mains cable market by storm!! :eek:
Marco.
Aren't those Marvos (Mavros?) cables several hundred quid a pop?
£750, I believe, for a 1m pair!! :eek:
Puts things into context nicely, SPPV-wise, doesn't it? ;)
Marco.
Think how many Lenteks you could buy for that amount :D
And between you and me :eyebrows: the A***s cable probably doesn't actually cost much more to make.. This range was intended as a huge profit wagon for hard-up dealers and the main man (ex Ariston of old) admitted the wires were cheap if bought in quantity. the only pre-requisite was that the (M******n S**w) dealers bought a fixed high quantity at a time to justify it all. maybe it's different now, several years on, but that's how it started.
Most interesting! That doesn't surprise me in the slightest :eyebrows:
I shall comment more later, once I've sobered up from a rather boozy lunch in the beautiful sunshine here in Wrexham! ;)
Marco.
Advantages of balanced connection aside, I'd say to Martin I'm confident that the G1000HDs are as good as or if not better than anything Kimber make (at a mere fraction of the price), so when Mark finalises the design of his balanced cables, Martin will have some significant pocket money to make when he says bye-bye to his overpriced Kimbers, and embraces a full interconnect cable loom of G1000HDs! ;)
I'm up for it, but don't underestimate the quality of sound from the Kimbers. They'll take some beating :)
Spectral Morn
03-06-2010, 16:23
And between you and me :eyebrows: the A***s cable probably doesn't actually cost much more to make.. This range was intended as a huge profit wagon for hard-up dealers and the main man (ex Ariston of old) admitted the wires were cheap if bought in quantity. the only pre-requisite was that the (M******n S**w) dealers bought a fixed high quantity at a time to justify it all. maybe it's different now, several years on, but that's how it started.
Unlike many who say they make cables Atlas does in the sense that the cables are made for Atlas to their specs and design and finished in Scotland. The cables in the range such as say Marvos are also made form the same materials through out the range thus allowing synergy between the interconnects and speaker cables unlike some who choose cables from the RS catalogue re brand them but use different ones within the ranges. Atlas's cables allow you to use an entire cable loom unlike many who's cables don't work with each other.
I can assure you that Atlas do no such thing...Mountain Snow was the past and Atlas which is a different company and yes John was involved in Mountain Snow and is the head of Atlas is a very different operation.
Like all things you must try cables out for yourself and see what suits your budget and system and as with all things audio synergy is the most important factor to get right. Some cables suit some applications and systems better than others and some may suit a wider range of systems and components than others.
Regards D S D L
Hi Martin,
I'm up for it, but don't underestimate the quality of sound from the Kimbers. They'll take some beating...
I *know* you're up for it, and that's one of the things I like about you: that it doesn't really matter what something costs (or whether it has a 'desirable audiophile badge' or not), if it's good enough to be included in your system - it gets in!!
It's also exactly the way I operate.
I'm not underestimating the quality of the Kimbers, though - they are very good, so it'll be interesting to see what happens......
As Neil's review of the G1000HDs shows though, you don't have to spend a fortune to own some of the best cables on the market! ;)
Marco.
P.S Neil, thanks for the clarification about Atlas - noted :)
twelvebears
03-06-2010, 20:08
Iit doesn't really matter what something costs (or whether it has a 'desirable audiophile badge' or not), if it's good enough to be included in your system - it gets in!!
Personally, having been through a "Kimber Period' (don"t ask, I'm better now) including Select interconnects and Bi-Focal XL speaker cable, I'm rather glad that Mark is coming up with great value products that also really deliver on performance.
I have one more balanced length that I would ideally like to have Kimber Select for (the connection from my Whest Phono pre to Preamp) but the price is frankly eye-watering now. Doing good service is a Mark Grant Canare XLR balanced cable, which outperformed his silver plated XLR prototype cable. This is an area I'd like to try a 'balanced G1000HD' type cable.
P.S Neil, thanks for the clarification about Atlas - noted :)
Thanks from me as well :)
Steve Toy
04-07-2010, 16:45
These should make for very interesting reading:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...nt_g1000hd.htm (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0710/mark_grant_g1000hd.htm)
http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/02/06/2010/mark-grant-g1000hd-are-these-cables-as-good-as-some-say-they-are/
I've got a pair of G1000HD's warming up as I write... things sound promising! :)
I disagree about the slightly full bass comments personally. Most of the better wires I've ever tried have more powerful bass and a "quieter," less hashy sounding treble to me...
Well firstly big thanks to the man himself for sorting me out with a great deal on the G1000HD. After I had expressed disappointment at missing out on Mike's pair he was selling Mark contacted me and sorted me out, shall we say.
They are a 0.5m pair running from the Caiman's fixed output into the Tuner input in my Creek amp. I mainly listen to CD, and a Mike Homar digi coax cable feeds the Caiman. My speaker cables are also Mark Grant supplied, Belden 5000UP.
I actually had kind of forgotten I had put them into the system last Saturday (arrived next day, as always) and they replaced a Mark Grant Canare set, which was a step up from what I was using before anyway (can't remember what.) As I said, I had kind of forgotten, as I have been playing vinyl and SACD a lot the last couple of days, but I have been thinking tonight that the music on CD I was playing was sounding fab, although it is all relatively new stuff I don't know that well. But everything just seems to be sounding really nice. Then I put a CD on I know and love (Genetic World by Telepopmusic) and suddenly the penny dropped - why does this CD sound so much better than I remember - bass has more presence, snare drums sound like, well, snare drums, high-hats sound smoother and less harsh than normal, but the biggest difference is that I have sound extending far beyond the speakers - the biggest soundstage I've ever had from CD in this system, with pin-sharp placement of instruments and voices and improved separation.
This must be the reverse of "Expectation Bias" - I was genuinely wondering why the sound was so much better, thinking it must be that I haven't got the main lights on, or because it is late and the electric is cleaner - maybe I've forgotten to turn the baby monitor on! Nope, the only thing that's changed is the introduction of the Mark Grant G1000HD. Highly recommended - another convert!
kininigin
23-07-2010, 12:35
i wrote this on another thread yesterday so thought i'd copy and paste to here.
well a couple of pairs of G1000HD turned up today (excellent guy to deal with)and i have these cables running throughout my system.
I 've been listening to music most of the day with a look of amazement on my face,i knew these cables were good but with no other cables restricting what they do im appreciating them alot more.
As many others have said before they come across as very natural with an even tonal balance.
The thing that has impressed me the most though is the soundstaging,there's more width,height and depth.On some albums i have listened to today when i closed my eyes i swear i could reach out and touch the different instruments.
Very interesting Darren - I hadn't seen your other post, and note we were both struck by the improved soundstage - didn't notice any burn in though... ;)
Hmm, I wonder if the G1000HD will even perfom on a far from highend sytem like mine.
It has to connect my Caiman to a Yamaha RX-V1300 receiver which are now connected through a pair of Silver High Breed Metaphor IC that imho performs pretty well and sounds very natural.
My Yamaha btw is connected to a set of Chario 200T speakers and my music source is 99% from my Squeezebox Classic.
But then ..... maybe it is overkill :rolleyes:
Hi Steven,
I seriously doubt it. A good cable is a good cable, regardless of system cost. Your system is easily good enough to show any improvements.
Why not give them a go? I guarantee you'll not be disappointed! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Thanks for your thoughts. I guess you might be right with the "trying it is knowing it"-doctrine.
I hope my better half agrees as well. :rolleyes:
Ali Tait
23-07-2010, 21:20
Well you can always send it back if you don't like it.You'd only lose cost of postage.
(...) Highly recommended - another convert!
Hi Alex, still converted?
Steven.
Steve Toy
27-07-2010, 17:44
If you want even more from your interconnects you could try these:
http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7181&page=2
Oh please, let my system be the bottleneck which prevents the G1000HD non-standard plugged sound even better than the standard plugged one. :eek:
Hi Alex, still converted?
Steven.
Put it this way, I'm planning on converting my SME arm to phono outputs so I can use one there too! :)
I'm sure they'll be fine, but the vibration issue does count with turntables. The Van Damme Pro Patch mic cable as used by Audio Origami is fantastic for tonearm exit leads of around 1m length. if it has a sound I'd say "Sweet & Atmospheric." Very cheap to buy and easy to terminate :)
Stratmangler
27-07-2010, 21:22
Put it this way, I'm planning on converting my SME arm to phono outputs so I can use one there too! :)
SME have the part in stock too.
SME have the part in stock too.
It was one of the extras I've asked them to quote me for! ;)
There's a pukka phono adaptor kit on fleabay for nigh on £200. I thought it was about £42 or thereabouts..
To save polluting this thread, added to my Garrard thread here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=140937&postcount=80)
Hi Steven,
I seriously doubt it. A good cable is a good cable, regardless of system cost. Your system is easily good enough to show any improvements.
Why not give them a go? I guarantee you'll not be disappointed! :)
Marco.
You´re right. I trust your remark and just ordered a set.
We only live once right? :eyebrows:
Nice one, Steven... Let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
quadsugdenman
13-08-2010, 22:42
Hi Steven,
I seriously doubt it. A good cable is a good cable, regardless of system cost. Your system is easily good enough to show any improvements.
Why not give them a go? I guarantee you'll not be disappointed! :)
Marco.
Your sales patter has succeeded again Marco!! :lol: I have also ordered a pair to compare with Audio Note and Stratos cables I use normally.
Lol! :eyebrows:
I meant what I said, Garry - it's a fallacy that you need a 'fancy' system to hear the benefits of good cables.
Enjoy, and let us know how you get on when you try them :)
Marco.
I used to recommend around 10% of the value of the components being connected together to be spent on interconnects, but then I changed jobs and met Steve Boxhall, (one time Tannoy Arden owner - gawd they're big) who used to run a business in Cambridge (now Audio File). he suggested - and proved to me back then, that 25% or more was more realistic.
For example, a £500 CD player could easily be used with "shop bought" cables costing well over £100 and the subtle differences easily heard over the usual £35 one most often bought..
These days, modern sources are better and cheaper than ever, and since Mark's cables are available directly at what I regard as a fair "trade" price, the balance is restored, as if sold in a shop they'd cost nigh on £200 for the standard one and £250 for the Neutrik terminated ones, let alone how much for the WBT version.
Mark has very kindly sorted me out with Neutrik equipped cables as I was having a problem with one of the Canare's. I certainly think the Neutrik Pro plugs are good (and also the basic "Rean" plugs too, which make a great contact for little money) and worth the money IMO.
Steve Toy
14-08-2010, 09:37
The WBT Nextgen version is frankly awesome and is a bigger step than from Canare to Neutrik.
I have my G1000HD's connected for a couple of days now but due to having 2 kids running around all day long, I was first able to test them briefly yesterday.
The Mark Grant's connect a B-Dac Caiman to a Yamaha receiver and the Caiman is connected to my Squeezebox Classic through a Mike Homar coax original (thanks again Mike ;))
I did some a/b comparisson with the Silver High Breed Metaphor interlink that the MG replaced (for the moment?).
I listened to some of the variety of musical genres I like (in FLAC format and stereo mode): Verdi's Requiem, Air's Moon Safari, Thelonious Monk's Monks Dream, Stevie Wonders Talking Book, Pink Floyd's Wish you were Here, Cowboy Junkies The Trinity, Radiohead's OK Computer and Metallica's Master of Puppets.
I must say the a/b switching revealed less differences than I suspected it would. With some songs the Mark Grant did slightly better on the vocals that the SHB. Bass was in overall the same and the highs, if noticable at all, were sometimes in favour of the SHB (but than they are silver cables).
Though extensive listening with kids at home is hard (when they finally sleep it is time to put on the headphones) the short comparing I did didn't yet bring me the hosanna I expected after reading other (many) comments. This of course may be because:
1) the Silver High Breed Metaphor are of (near) equal quality as the MG;
2) my system is the bottle neck that prevents hearing the differences between the two cables;
3) my 39 yr old hearing is the bottle neck.
Please note that I am not trying to bash MG's products at all (!), I just want to give my objective opinion after the short comparisson I did. Fact is, I really like the sound of it, but compared to the SHB sound wise it is not (yet) the better one to me.
I will post my experiences when I've done some further testing.
BTW, my thoughts are that maybe - given the many cheerful comments the MG G1000HB gets - my system (with in my opinion decent Chario Syntar 200 speakers) isn't high-end enough to reveal all of the interlinks quality.
I used to recommend around 10% of the value of the components being connected together to be spent on interconnects, but then I changed jobs and met Steve Boxhall, (one time Tannoy Arden owner - gawd they're big) who used to run a business in Cambridge (now Audio File). he suggested - and proved to me back then, that 25% or more was more realistic.
For example, a £500 CD player could easily be used with "shop bought" cables costing well over £100 and the subtle differences easily heard over the usual £35 one most often bought..
You met the legendary Steve Boxshall?
One of the rare breed of dealers that knew his stock forwards, backwards and sideways, plus he was always a true gent to deal with. I really miss his style of selling hi-fi and I did buy quite a lot of gear from him back in the 80's and 90's. I last met him around 1995-ish when he was working part time at hi_fi consultants up in Peterborough.
I don't think there ever was a hard and fast rule about a percentage budget spend on cables, because I've heard £1,000+ cables that sounded pants and £30 cables that sounded sublime. And that is the very reason why price and sound quality can be both proportional and inversely proportional.
I have heard much about Mark Grant's cables but never had the chance to listen to any. If cash wasn't so tight right now then I certainly would give them a spin.
Reid Malenfant
20-08-2010, 19:21
I last met him around 1995-ish when he was working part time at hi_fi consultants up in Peterborough.
Sorry to go off topic but we might know each other ;) I might know this chap you are refering to as well, terrible for names, but i remember faces :eyebrows:
I assume you know Steve Wilcox who at the time owned Hifi Consultants in Cowgate, Peterborough. The shop is shut now but KJ West One & possibly another of his outfits is still going on in London :)
Sorry to go off topic but we might know each other ;) I might know this chap you are refering to as well, terrible for names, but i remember faces :eyebrows:
I assume you know Steve Wilcox who at the time owned Hifi Consultants in Cowgate, Peterborough. The shop is shut now but KJ West One & possibly another of his outfits is still going on in London :)
I knew Steve Wilcox very well, so too his brother Robin who sadly passed away last time I heard, plus we used to tease Malcolm incessantly back in the 80's about his "midrange suckout" comments. I worked with Dave Millard when the repair centre was in the back room of the Cowgate shop. Richard Dunn was forever coming into the shop too when he had the Tresham Audio factory over in Orton.
Reid Malenfant
20-08-2010, 19:39
I should imagine we do know each other then :lol: Small world ;) I didn't know Robin had passed away, must have been in the last 5 years at the most, if not less :(
One day we might well find out if we do indeed know each other :) You might know a friend of mine that used to assemble imported kits of Hafler amps from the USA back in the day, used to live down Mayors Walk. It would probably have been about that time ;)
Meanwhile apologies for going off topic & lets get back to what it's all about... The cables..
I should imagine we do know each other then :lol: Small world ;) I didn't know Robin had passed away, must have been in the last 5 years at the most, if not less :(
One day we might well find out if we do indeed know each other :) You might know a friend of mine that used to assemble imported kits of Hafler amps from the USA back in the day, used to live down Mayors Walk. It would probably have been about that time ;)
Meanwhile apologies for going off topic & lets get back to what it's all about... The cables..
I have built a fair few Hafler pre and power amps in my time back then too. I loved the power amps and one of my favourite sounds of all time was a Hafler power amp fed by a Rappaport pre, into a pair of Harbeth HL's. Lovely stuff :)
We sold all of those at KJ back then, although the very best was the "John Oliver Record Player" (John was still half of Listening Rooms last I heard) - this was an LP12/Hadcock/Entre with a Meridian 101/103D and the lovely old Harbeth HL's.
I personally would'nt mind if you'd continue your OT chat somewhere else. :eyebrows:
chris@panteg
21-08-2010, 10:39
Thread drift is a tradition here on AOS , halcyon days eh Dave.
Yeah, I knew Robin too, as brother Steve was my last bosses business-partner.
OK, back to Marks cables. He's very kindly re-terminated the phono end of my pre to power lead (Canare jacks on amp end) with Neutrik Pros and, despite the superior feeling connection, I can't say there's a big difference in sound, or much of a small one tbh. I do like the Neutrik pro plugs though, so I'm very happy.
Mark also made me up a new XLR-Phono interconnect using an uprated silver plated "mic" cable. It's certainly more difficult to "form" and really does need to hang freely I think. As for tonality, I'd returned to the Belden 9272 cables I made and although the sound seemed more "contained," it was clearer to me and less "hyped." The replacement interconnects are definitely better, having more "focus," but I can't get past the feeling that the sound may well still be a little OTT, especially on some CD's with "wild" treble energy mastered in.
Mark is apparently planning a twin-conductor version of the HD1000 for balanced use. I think this will be the best of all myself and can't wait for them to appear. Trouble is, if you specify the construction yourself, it takes time for your turn to come with the cable manufacturers..
Mark is apparently planning a twin-conductor version of the HD1000 for balanced use. I think this will be the best of all myself and can't wait for them to appear.
Now that I do want to hear. I want to replace my phono pre to preamp run (a Belden cable) and, if they're successful enough, I may do a Marco and sell all my expensive Kimber balanced cables. I would love to get back to a single brand of cable for uniformity.
My single-ended run of G1000HD from DAC to preamp has been very successful.
quadsugdenman
21-08-2010, 22:13
Lol! :eyebrows:
I meant what I said, Garry - it's a fallacy that you need a 'fancy' system to hear the benefits of good cables.
Enjoy, and let us know how you get on when you try them :)
Marco.
Well I swapped the QED Anniversary speaker cable for the Sterling Mambas on your recommendation a month or so ago, and now the Mark Grant for my Audio Note Silver interconnect.:lolsign:
The difference really is remarkable. The soundstage is wider, the images more three dimensional, the bass is deeper, more pronounced but not boomy. The Harbeths seem to disappear completely and I am immersed in a wall of sound. Thanks for the recommendations!!! ;)
I think there are enough of us now that have tried the Mark Grant GXXXXHDs (and not only for a short time, but long-term) and found genuine improvements to be confident that they really are that rare breed - a genuine bargain. Cheers Mark! :cool:
Well I swapped the QED Anniversary speaker cable for the Sterling Mambas on your recommendation a month or so ago, and now the Mark Grant for my Audio Note Silver interconnect.:lolsign:
The difference really is remarkable. The soundstage is wider, the images more three dimensional, the bass is deeper, more pronounced but not boomy. The Harbeths seem to disappear completely and I am immersed in a wall of sound. Thanks for the recommendations!!! ;)
Are the improvements you mention only due to your swap of interconnects or are they compared to your setup before you had the Sterling Mambas?
Now that I do want to hear. I want to replace my phono pre to preamp run (a Belden cable) and, if they're successful enough, I may do a Marco and sell all my expensive Kimber balanced cables. I would love to get back to a single brand of cable for uniformity.
My single-ended run of G1000HD from DAC to preamp has been very successful.
The Belden 9272 and 8760 are good general purpose wires and if you can make them up yourself, make a solid, decent interconnect. I like Van Damme cables too, the current ones having decent quality copper, a few silver strands apparently and they're easy to solder and work with.
Marks cables just seem to take this slightly further and not everyone can make their own cables to a decent standard. You have to factor in Mark's time in the costing and he ain't doing it for nowt...
Agreed, I could make up my own cables but it would take some time and patience, not to mention the difficulty of getting fat cables into an XLR or, worse, phono plug.
I do think Mark is onto something with his gas-tight crimping technique, too.
Steve Toy
22-08-2010, 13:15
The better connectors are soldered...
quadsugdenman
22-08-2010, 14:43
Are the improvements you mention only due to your swap of interconnects or are they compared to your setup before you had the Sterling Mambas?
The point had been that Marco recommended I changed speaker cable a couple of months ago to Sterling Mambas. About 10 days ago he recommended I look at the Mark Grant cables (See Marco's previous posts in this thread) which I did and have been using them almost non stop (60hrs) in my system.
The combination of these cabling changes has resulted in the improvements noted. However the biggest improvement has been since the introduction of the MG interconnects.
Aha, thanks for clarifying.
My HD1000G's have only had a couple of hours of duty time yet, so maybe the sound will change over time compared to my Silver High Breeds they replaced.
Hi, Garry - glad it's worked out well :)
Good cables can make a huge difference to how a system plays music.
Marco.
The better connectors are soldered...
I would always have agreed with you, but the MGs are sounding very good indeed. Their performance over a long period will be telling as to whether the crimp method is long lasting.
It's generally believed that crimped connections are best. A really tight crimp will be gas-tight. It also will ensure the best electrical connection as there's no solder between wire and phono. It has to be done right though. As far as I'm aware most connections on aircraft are crimped rather than soldered, this tells us a lot....
As the better WBTs are sounding good it must be that the connector quality outweighs any advantage due to crimping.
We're talking audio frequencies and levels here with a normally limited dynamic range too, not rf in a physically demanding environment (unless you "shake your snaics" every day :rolleyes:) so as long as the joint is clean and properly soldered, I wouldn't have thought there'd be any long-term problems.
We're talking audio frequencies and levels here with a normally limited dynamic range too, not rf in a physically demanding environment (unless you "shake your snaics" every day :rolleyes:) so as long as the joint is clean and properly soldered, I wouldn't have thought there'd be any long-term problems.
Absolutely Dave, there won't be long term issues with soldered joints. I expect crimps might sound a fraction better if done well (gas-tight) but a well executed soldered joint with a little solder present and a lot of cable contact to the phono should be good.
Steve Toy
22-08-2010, 20:25
I think the point I was making has been missed. The G1500HD and G2000HD with Neutrik Pro-fi and WBT Nextgen 0110 connectors respectively are soldered not crimped. They are audibly better than the crimped Canare plugs.
I think the point I was making has been missed. The G1500HD and G2000HD with Neutrik Pro-fi and WBT Nextgen 0110 connectors respectively are soldered not crimped. They are audibly better than the crimped Canare plugs.
That's what I was trying to say whilst not attributing the improved sound to the soldering:
As the better WBTs are sounding good it must be that the connector quality outweighs any advantage due to crimping.
As the better WBTs are sounding good it must be that the connector quality outweighs any advantage due to crimping.
...And that's it in a nutshell
Did you miss that comment, Steve? :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
22-08-2010, 21:15
I did miss it yes. That aside it's one of those trees falling in a forest making no noise situations.
Ali Tait
22-08-2010, 21:23
Even in situations where longevity and consistency are absolutely required,such as control systems in nuclear power stations,wiring is crimped rather than soldered in my experience.Indeed I rarely have to solder things these days at work,and when I do it's mostly when tying newer systems into old.Speed and cost are of course major factors in this,but not everything,especially where critical systems are concerned.
I thought I'd add some more comments about soldering vs crimping and the Nextgen phonos used by Mark.
The phono plugs, similar to the Eichmanns (with may have been the inspiration for WBT), connect ground very effectively over a very small surface area but with a relatively large force. It would seem that this technique has much to do with why these phonos are widely acclaimed as sounding better than standard one's with a collar providing a looser ground connection. There are other details such as the amount and types of metals involved too.
Non-hifi industries see crimping as the best and most reliable form wire fixing. If you have the correct equipment it's easier to repeatedly make top quality joints by crimping. Top quality crimping means the cable is squashed so tightly that the joint is gas-tight resulting in the very best electrical transfer possible with no tarnishing being able to develop in future.
If you solder these joints and do a really good job then the resulting sound from the cable should be just as good as a crimp. But, just think about what's required. When preparing the wire it must be very tightly in contact with the phono plug (just as the Nextgen ground connector will be when the plug is in use). When the solder is applied it should be providing "metal glue" to the joint, also making it gas-tight but the solder should not be used for making the electrical connection.
Ensuring the wire is really tightly in contact with the phono plug prior to soldering is IMO likely to be more variably achieved than than similarly good contact is by crimping. However....probably it's not so difficult to make a good enough soldered joint, even if it's not as good as a crimp. It would seem from the listening tests performed by Steve that it's the phono plugs that make a far greater difference. The overriding difference appears to be down to the quality of the ground connection via a small surface area, this is provided by the WBT Nextgen plugs as offered by Mark on his G2000HD. cable.
Thanks for the informed post. Cleared up the confusion of which is better perfectly.
I thought I'd add some more comments about soldering vs crimping and the Nextgen phonos used by Mark.
The phono plugs, similar to the Eichmanns (with may have been the inspiration for WBT), connect ground very effectively over a very small surface area but with a relatively large force. It would seem that this technique has much to do with why these phonos are widely acclaimed as sounding better than standard one's with a collar providing a looser ground connection. There are other details such as the amount and types of metals involved too.
Non-hifi industries see crimping as the best and most reliable form wire fixing. If you have the correct equipment it's easier to repeatedly make top quality joints by crimping. Top quality crimping means the cable is squashed so tightly that the joint is gas-tight resulting in the very best electrical transfer possible with no tarnishing being able to develop in future.
If you solder these joints and do a really good job then the resulting sound from the cable should be just as good as a crimp. But, just think about what's required. When preparing the wire it must be very tightly in contact with the phono plug (just as the Nextgen ground connector will be when the plug is in use). When the solder is applied it should be providing "metal glue" to the joint, also making it gas-tight but the solder should not be used for making the electrical connection.
Ensuring the wire is really tightly in contact with the phono plug prior to soldering is IMO likely to be more variably achieved than than similarly good contact is by crimping. However....probably it's not so difficult to make a good enough soldered joint, even if it's not as good as a crimp. It would seem from the listening tests performed by Steve that it's the phono plugs that make a far greater difference. The overriding difference appears to be down to the quality of the ground connection via a small surface area, this is provided by the WBT Nextgen plugs as offered by Mark on his G2000HD. cable.
Without wishing to dismiss the acoustic properties of Mark Grant’s excellent interconnects (I’m listening to some at the moment), I’m not convinced that the audible benefits heard by many are necessarily due to the use of RCA phono connectors that are crimped onto the cable.
Soldering vs. crimping
The debate as to whether to solder or not to solder an electrical connection has been likened to the debate between Gulliver's Lilliputians and Blefuscudians over which end to open a boiled egg. The argument may never be settled, and, ultimately, there may be no right or wrong answer. Yet each side has its steadfast proponents.
A properly soldered electrical connection has its virtues. Solder reinforces the mechanical connection of joined wires and helps to prevent their inadvertent separation. Solder is an excellent conductor, and causes minimal voltage drop. Solder allows for visual inspection of the exterior of the connection. Solder has an almost universal application, regardless of differences in wire gauge, component location, available space, and component function. Soldering does not require specialised equipment, but does require skill. But soldering is not perfect.
Soldering is done at high temperature. Even with a heat sink, solder may migrate into areas beyond the intended joint or may cause damage to adjacent wires and components. Solder may trap moisture that eventually may corrode a connection from within. Too much solder may reduce the electrical conductivity of the stranded wires. Too little solder may cause the joint to fail. Solder does not permit visual inspection of the interior of the joint. Solder with a lead content raises health or environmental issues. A soldered connection will be less flexible than the original stranded wire, and may weaken over time due to vibration. A soldered connection may require additional insulation using sleeving. A soldered connection is permanent and cannot conveniently be disconnected. For these reasons a ‘solder-less’ method of connection was developed.
Crimping
Crimping was invented in 1941, in the US by Amp Incorporated. It was developed as a method for terminating wires and connectors that avoided soldering. Crimping technologies allowed rapid, consistent and cheaper wire termination compared to that achieved by soldering. Over the years many different methods of crimping technology were invented for single wires, multiple wires and coaxial cables. Most people assume a ‘crimp’ is just a contact crushed onto a wire, giving electrical conductivity by means of pressure, whereas proper crimping involves elastic and plastic deformation and flow of metals resulting in micro cold welds due to ‘contact asperity welding’ of the metal surfaces. During the deformation process the wire and connector are mechanically cleaned, usually making pre-cleaning of wire and terminal unnecessary. When done right, this crimped connection can be much stronger and longer lasting than a soldered connection, and have electrical resistance of the equivalent length of wire. A properly done crimp is also gas-tight as well, so preventing oxidation to degrade the connection over time.
How to make good crimped connections
There are critical factors in crimping that are necessary to create a proper cold welded crimp, ideal connector to wire interaction and insulation material support. Properly accomplishing all of these will result in connections having extremely high quality electrical performance, are long lasting, and have great durability in harsh environments.
The first thing to understand is that all connectors are made to work with a somewhat small range of wire sizes. Using improperly sized wires and connectors will result in poor electrical performance, poor mechanical strength and often a poor or non-existent cold welding of materials. Besides matching the connector with the wire or cable, the proper tooling in the proper condition is also absolutely necessary for a proper crimp termination. The wire, the contact and the tooling are all engineered to very exacting degrees. In the field, crimped contact measurements must be measured to be accurate to very small tolerances, typically within ±50μm or less. The crimps must also be viewed under magnification to be sure that tooling wear or contamination has not adversely effect the quality of the crimp termination. Small amounts of wear or contamination on the crimp dies can result in a poorly formed crimp.
A pull test is a commonly used method of determining the quality of a crimp. It is basically a measurement of how much force it takes to pull the wire out of the termination. With common wire sizes, this should be as close as possible to the force necessary to break the wire itself when pulled. This is because achieving the best possible mechanical strength in a well-designed crimped termination is similar to the conditions required to achieve optimum electrical performance. So if you are within range of the best mechanical strength, you are also within range of the best possible electrical performance. Crimping just a bit tighter trying to reach the best possible electrical performance will give only marginally better electrical performance, but will rapidly over-harden the crimp resulting in fragility.
A very important factor in passing or failing a pull test is where exactly the wire breaks. If the wire breaks within the terminal, this will usually mean an over-crimp, weakening the crimp from too much cross-sectional area reduction and work hardening. If it breaks right where the wire meets the terminal that may, or may not, be a bad indication. Terminals have what is called a ‘bell mouth’ where the wire enters the terminal. The bell mouth is a flared out area to eliminate cutting into the wires, which would happen with an abrupt ending of the crimped area.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/crimping-and-soldering/Crimpterminal.jpg/image_preview
An example of a crimped termination: showing the crimped electrical connection as well as the insulation support.
When the wire itself breaks outside of the terminal it is generally considered ideal. If the wire is pulled from the terminal without breakage, it is important it only does so within the rated specifications of the terminal or general crimp specifications.
Coaxial cable crimps generally pull out and do not reach the level of breaking the braided shield material during pull tests. It is important to be sure that coax crimps meet the manufacturer’s specifications on both the inner and outer conductors in order to be sure of the best possible crimp. Using improper tooling is very easy to do with coaxial cables when substituting brands of cable, which may have largely different braid and other shield sizes even within the same cable type designation.
An important and often overlooked feature of most kinds of crimps is the insulation support crimp. This part of the crimp does not contact the wire conductor at all. The insulation crimp is there to provide strain relief and vibration resistance for the wire crimp. Without a strain relief, or with a poor strain relief crimp, vibration of, or repeated flexing of the wires will directly affect the wire barrel crimp and will eventually result in breakage.
Because of speed, cost and repeatability, Crimping is by far the most common type of wire connection used today in electronics. Proper crimping creates a weld between wire and contact, resulting in an extremely reliable, long lasting connection that is extremely resistant to environmental harm.
Soldering
Soldering is a method of connecting a wire and terminal using a conductive melted metal alloy. The filler material is melted and flowed into and around the gap between the wire and terminal. Upon cooling, the wire and contact are joined in what is called a solder joint. While not as strong as the wire or contact metals the solder joint is mechanically strong. The alloy material used in soldering is chosen for its low melting point and good electrical conductivity. Historically a mixture of about 63% tin and 37% lead was used for its low melting point. This combination is called a eutectic, and has the property that the melting point of the alloy is lower than the respective melting point of the constituent metals. This is important because if a different proportion of tin and lead were used, on cooling the constituent with the higher melting point (lead) would solidify first, before the tin. This interim temporary mixture has a constituency a bit like concrete before it has set: a slurry of solid objects in a liquid. As such the resultant electrical contact would consist of many (millions) of tin-lead contacts, leading to a joint that in time would become noisy.
All solder sold for electrical connection is the 63/37 tin lead eutectic, though is commonly referred to and marketed as 60/40 solder. While solder with lead is still often used in mission-critical applications such as aerospace and medical, it is being replaced, for health and safety reasons, with lead-free solder which most commonly uses a tin, silver and copper alloy.
How to make a good soldered joint
Several factors are involved in creating the best possible solder joint. You need to start with clean; non-corroded materials and a soldering iron at the proper temperature for the solder with a clean tip of proper size and shape for the wire and contact to be soldered. The best soldering iron to use is one whose tip is thermostatically controlled to suit the solder used. The tip should itself be tinned, but the tip should be clean, with excess solder being removed by wiping the tip on a dampened sponge. (Some will advise the use of de-ionised water, but this is not necessary.) The wire and contact to be soldered must be prepared by tinning and shaping the wire or by mechanically attaching the wire to the terminal before soldering.
The first step in soldering is cleaning, if necessary. A chemical cleaning agent called flux is used to remove oxidation from the wire and terminal and to protect them prior to soldering. Flux can be in liquid or paste form and usually is included in solders made for hand soldering (resin cored solder: the resin being the flux). There are numerous different types of flux, which may or may not have to be removed after soldering. Usually there is enough flux in the solder to eliminate the need for additional flux.
The next step is tinning the wire and terminal. Care must be taken not to melt or damage the insulation. The idea is not to cover the wire with solder; it is to let solder flow onto and into the wire via ‘wetting’ and ‘capillary action’. These same physical and molecular forces are also used to create a proper solder joint during final soldering. After tinning, the wire is properly formed, if necessary, onto the contact or in a shape that will allow easy attachment to the contact.
The act of soldering the wire and terminal usually looks very easy, but requires a certain amount of skill. First the two parts must be simultaneously heated using the iron to reach the solder melting temperature. Then, the solder is applied to the materials, which cause the solder to melt and flow. The solder flows into, onto and around the materials via wetting and capillary action helped along by the flux. No excess solder should be flowed onto the joint - just enough solder to create the bond between materials. The wire and contact must remain motionless during the soldering process as well as during cooling. If the wire moves during cooling, or if the solder is heated solely by the iron but not the wire and terminal, then a ‘cold’ or ‘dry’ solder joint is created. Dry solder joints look dull and grey rather than shiny like polished chrome. While new lead free solder joints don't have the same bright, shiny look as traditional lead based joints, they should still look smooth and shiny. Dry joints will have a higher electrical resistance, will be brittle and thus subject to mechanical failure and will be electrically noisy.
After soldering, the joint should be cleaned of excess flux. Isopropyl alcohol is sufficient.
It ought to be mentioned that if tinned wires are to be soldered to gold-plated terminals, the plated terminals must not be tinned beforehand and the tinned wire must be mechanically attached securely before the junction is soldered. This is because during 'tinning' the molten solder is likely to dissolve some of the gold of the plating, forming a brittle gold-tin-lead alloy, which is liable to separate from the nickel barrier layer on which the gold has been plated. This is usually not a problem with say the gold-plated solder buckets of audio connectors, such as RCA phono plugs, XLR or DIN connectors, but for aerospace applications these areas would be 'de-golded' before soldering.
After mechanical methods of connection (screw terminal or the above mentioned crimping), soldering is the second most commonly used way of attaching wires and connector contacts. With proper cleaning and soldering techniques an excellent connection can be made that will have high conductivity and long lasting reliability.
Summary
Done properly, a soldered joint can be just as good and reliable as a crimped connection. To make a good soldered joint, requires skill on part of the operator, but does not require particularly specialised equipment. On the other hand, to make a good crimped joint does not require skill, but does require the specialised crimping tools unique to the wire size and crimp termination. The only point to stress is that connections designed to be crimped, should never be soldered (nor should a crimped joint be ‘reinforced’ by soldering; this will degrade the connection), likewise a connection designed to be soldered should not be crimped.
Reid Malenfant
23-08-2010, 18:21
A most excellent post Barry ;)
I actually hold a power press regulations certificate that i earned on a week long course in a Devon town or village at an AMP site (wish i could remember the name of the place :scratch:). This was so i could strip & rebuild/ maintain power presses for crimping would you believe :eyebrows:
Having just taken a look at a map of Devon i feel sure it was at Great Torrington ;)
Superb stuff, Barry! Such is the quality of the writing in that post (and info therein) it deserves to feature as an article in The Library....
I may move it there later :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
23-08-2010, 18:24
Superb stuff, Barry! Such is the quality of the writing in that post (and info therein) it deserves to feature as an article in The Library....
+1 :)
Right, thats 39 pages on this ic, can anybody post what they actually sound like, warm -what?:).
Oh, and had a few of the black stuff as well:cool::):):):):):):)
Steve Toy
23-08-2010, 23:45
Just order some - the 1000s, 1500s and 2000s and pick the ones you like best, sending back any you don't like/don't justify the price premium in the context of your system.
Simples :)
Right, thats 39 pages on this ic, can anybody post what they actually sound like, warm -what?:).
They don't "sound" so it's difficult to put a label on them. Since that's not the answer you want, let me say that they lack the splashy and grainy qualities that afflict many cheaper "commercial" interconnects. It's like the QED Qnex 2, but miles "clearer." :)
To add to that, the G1000HD is very tonally neutral and does not accentuate any part of the spectrum, but definitely has a full and extended bass response which is noticeable when compared with some other cables. It has delicate detail yet is not harsh or splashy in any way. Not warm, then, but definitely not balanced cool either.
Ammonite Audio
24-08-2010, 15:30
To add to that, the G1000HD is very tonally neutral and does not accentuate any part of the spectrum, but definitely has a full and extended bass response which is noticeable when compared with some other cables. It has delicate detail yet is not harsh or splashy in any way. Not warm, then, but definitely not balanced cool either.
I'd agree with that.
Does anyone know:
Are the G1000/1500/2000HD interconnects wired such that the screen/shield is connected to ground on only one end of the cable?
I've sent this question to Mark Grant's website twice in the past three weeks and have not received a reply.
Thanks!
Mark Grant
26-08-2010, 08:46
Hello George,
The screen is connnected at both ends as the cable is a coaxial construction, one core and a screen.
It would need two cores and a screen to make it with a 'floating' screen.
There is a balanced version ( two cores and screen) in development that could be wired like this, will be a while yet as is taking some time...
Not sure why you never received an email, I do occasionally have problems with being blocked by yahoo and hotmail and some other free email providerers.
(googlemail is usually OK though)
I will send you a Private message here and an email from a different email address that has not been used much so should get through.
Thanks,
Mark.
I guess it might not be practical with a co-ax cable but would a DIN to DIN be an option?
Mark-
Thanks for the PM and the information. Please let us know when the new cable may be available.
Best regards-
Just bought a Mark Grant G1000HD Coaxial Digital Cable to span the gap between my CDP and Beresford DAC and it is a very nice cable. It looks fantastic, feels well made, and more importantly sounds great to my ears. Can't compare it to other cables as I don't own any other digital cables. But I am deffo gonna replace my van den hul interconnects with G1000HD.
Also great service and fast delivery too!
Butuz
How have you got on with this cable since you've had it, did it take any time to "burn in"?
Thanks...
Peter Stockwell
22-09-2010, 09:46
I guess it might not be practical with a co-ax cable but would a DIN to DIN be an option?
Mark did me a DIN to DIN G1000HD with which I'm very satisfied, it replaced a Hiline. I'd say there must be differences between the cables, but not enough to warrant keeping the Hiline, although I prefer the G1000HD, so yet another reason not to keep the Hiline. (I'll sell mine when I find the box :) )
Hi Peter
Good to see you again, matey. Long time no see! How's tricks? :)
Glad you're liking the Mark Grants :cool:
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
22-09-2010, 11:04
Hi Marco,
Things are fine, just took a break from too many forums. Now decided to hang in here for a while.
cheers
OH NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Mark can squeeze two HD1000's into a DIN plug! Oh cr@p :(
I can see more money going his way before too long........;)
Hi Marco,
Things are fine, just took a break from too many forums. Now decided to hang in here for a while.
cheers
Great news, Peter - we always enjoy your contributions. Are you still using your Techie or are you now completely lost to the 'delights' of computer audio? :)
Marco.
OH NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Mark can squeeze two HD1000's into a DIN plug! Oh cr@p :(
I can see more money going his way before too long........
Indeed - Mark is a man of many talents ;)
You really must try his mains leads at some point, Dave!
Marco.
I am, and it works very nicely thank you :respect:
Soz, didn't realise you were already using them...
Fab aren't they? :)
Marco.
I'm using one from wall to distribution block and yes, it's excellent and half the price of the equivalent Rega mains lead which looks very similar... Most of the rest of it uses captive mains leads and I'm still using the Roxburgh filters in any case.
Peter Stockwell
22-09-2010, 14:09
Great news, Peter - we always enjoy your contributions. Are you still using your Techie or are you now completely lost to the 'delights' of computer audio? :)
Marco.
Use computer audio most of the time. The teccie almost got a run this week, but I'm waiting on a wee phonostage that'll be autopowered by the 282 ( a Stageline 'E'), that'll make running the teccie more convenient. I have to plug unplug to use the Teccie currently. I think it still sounds best in absolute terms, but don't have the space to store records. Between CDX/XPS and SB3/TeddySB3PS/Chevron Dac, I'm hard pushed to notice a difference, but think the CD player get's the nod. Just waiting for the latest generation G2000HD's to see what they bring.
I also bought Scoobs old VRDS-9 to use into the dac, and then I'm going to stop and try to sell some of the expensive gear.
I'm using one from wall to distribution block and yes, it's excellent and half the price of the equivalent Rega mains lead which looks very similar... Most of the rest of it uses captive mains leads and I'm still using the Roxburgh filters in any case.
I like the idea of captive mains leads, as IECs are (in general) evil things, in terms of degrading sound quality, but only if the cable in question of the captive mains lead is of suitably high quality.
In my experience, some of the captive mains leads used on vintage gear are shockingly poor, compared to the best types available today for audio purposes.
When you can be arsed (and can afford to do so), Dave, you should replace all your captive mains leads for Mark Grant DSP 2.5s, hard-wiring them in situ. You can always keep the old leads, and refit them, should you ever sell your gear.
You will then obtain (cumulatively) the sonic improvement you gained from using one from the wall to your distribution block, and trust me your system will never sound better! :)
Marco.
Hi Peter,
Use computer audio most of the time. The teccie almost got a run this week, but I'm waiting on a wee phonostage that'll be autopowered by the 282 ( a Stageline 'E'), that'll make running the teccie more convenient. I have to plug unplug to use the Teccie currently.
Ah, that must be a bit of a ball-ache, and it certainly isn't going to encourage frequent listening sessions. Hope the Stageline E hits the spot :)
I think it still sounds best in absolute terms, but don't have the space to store records.
The latter is undoubtedly a key issue. You've still got the KAB PSU, haven't you, and the stock tonearm, too (I can't remember)? Things have moved forward now big time, so your deck could definitely do with an update!
There are all sorts of mods now available that would launch the performance of your Techie into the stratosphere, sonically, leaving behind all of your other sources in that respect :cool:
Between CDX/XPS and SB3/TeddySB3PS/Chevron Dac, I'm hard pushed to notice a difference, but think the CD player get's the nod. Just waiting for the latest generation G2000HD's to see what they bring.
Is it your CDX that was Audiocom-modified? I remember you got Mark to upgrade something, but I forget what it was. If so, I'm not surprised that CD sounds so good on your system.
The G2000HDs are stunningly good, and will undoubtedly give your music collection a whole new lease of life!
I also bought Scoobs old VRDS-9 to use into the dac, and then I'm going to stop and try to sell some of the expensive gear.
Good move. I like the Teac VRDS machines, as they're built very well and all use high quality transport mechanisms - an absolute essential for accurate CD replay. You should get Mark to 'breathe' on that, too - you may be surprised at the results! ;)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
22-09-2010, 17:32
The Stageline E and the Teac VRDS-9 arrived today, now i've got to do some tinkering :). The Teccie has an SME IV/AT33PTG
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2010, 17:47
Marco
You wanted to here how g1000's works as interconnects to my actives...
Smoother, a touch warmer, slightly more full sounding than the ones ultimate supplied... Happy bunny I am!
I got the standard g1000 plugs on the phono end as I don't like the conectors off the higher end ones... I know they are supposed to be better ... But they are a bit flimsy for my liking!
Mark Grant
12-11-2010, 18:42
Thanks for the comments Hamish :)
Just so that people know, Hamish has a 6 metre stereo pair that is Phono to XLR from his valve pre amp to high end active speakers.
Phono connectors are Canare RCAP-C53 crimped, Male XLR are Neutrik with pins 1 and 3 connected to ground, pin 2 hot, with my high quality soldering in the XLR's :)
Mark.
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2010, 18:50
No probs, the hifi is sounding superb this evening ... Mains filter and new interconnects have made me a very happy chappy!
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