AOS-recommended SPPV products - just an idea for a sticky? [Archive]

Wakefield Turntables

13-03-2016, 08:40

I got the inspiration for this idea from reading the Klotz / MS Audio thread. I'd like to start a list of products & manufacturers that produce or have designed fantastic products at amazingly good value for money. So here's my nominations

AMPLIFIERS

£100 - £500

* Croft Mircobasic Preamplifier - The only amp where you get a MM phonostage probably worth more than the amp!! Fantastic value if you can get 2nd hand.

CABLES

INTERCONNECTS

<£100

* Belden 19364 shielded cable - Fantastic no nonsense cable that simply does the job done.
* Yannis Tome (www.backbeat.co.uk (http://www.backbeat.co.uk)) - An amazing guy who produces amazing cables. His tonearm cable displaced a Nordost cable at 4 times the cost.
* Mark Grant G1000HD - Starts at £50 and highly recommended over many forums, crops up regular on 2nd hand market for less cash. An AOS favourite.
* Flasback's Premiere range - Prices start at £43 per meter and a few AOSer's seem to like these with Quad/Naim gear.
* Pure AV (White version) - Sold at pound shops! Screened cables, pure copper, gold plated RCA's. Less than £10 would cost considerably more to better.
* The Klotz MC5000 / MS Audio RCA IC's - Two products when combines produces an excellent set of IC's. Very good SPPV.

CARTRDIGES (MC)

£100 TO £500

* Denon 103 (+Variants) - Widely recognised all over the world as an MC that punches well above its weight. Very tweekable and massive Internet following.

DACs

£100 - £500

* Bushmaster II / Caiman II DAC - Beresford Audio, these come up quite regular and offer excellect SPPV, even better with SFW upgrades and battery powered PSU.
* IQ-Audio DAC - Nominated by Marco who says, "SPPV doesn't really get much better than with that!"
* The Raspberry Pi - Very well respected piece of kit used by many AOSer's.

HEAD-AMPS

<£100

* Little Bear T20 - A headamp, goldplated RCA's, PSU, tightly matched resistors&caps (within 5%), from China £20!! Would probably cost £75-100 from UK.

PHONOSTAGE

* Arkless Electronics 640P - Widely sort phonostage starting at £185. Rarely crops up and widely recognised as being extremely good SPPV.

SPEAKERS

* RFC Extrinsic Tannoy Cross Overs - Fantastic Tannoy speaker designs and Reference grade XO's are simply superb.

STREAMING DEVICES

<£100

* Chromecast - A few AOSers have commented on the quality of this device, it's portability and its incredibly low price.

TONEARMS

<£500

* Jelco SA-750D - Another tonearm that is widely seen across a multiude of forums as good value for money. Prices vary between £400 - 475 brand new.

TURNTABLE ADD-ONS

<£100

* Ebony Armboards - Magna Audio AKA Speedy Steve! His ebony armboard was a very cheap and effective upgrade for my 1210.
* The Analog Audio Crystal Mat - Harking back to the 70's when the big Jap TT's had glass platter mats, for me this is the best 1210 platter mat available.

Marco

13-03-2016, 09:45

Good idea for a thread, Andy. I'll move it into Blank Canvas, which is a more relevant place for it to live, considering that the products concerned have various different applications, and also it'll get more traffic there :)

I won't sticky the thread right away, however. I'll wait until more products have been added and/or it has received some more replies.

To your list I would also add:

The Raspberry Pi/IQ-Audio DAC. SPPV doesn't really get much better than with that! Also the Jelco SA-750D tonearm, with Shuggie collar. Anything from Jez or Firebottle. Oh, and of course, not forgetting a judiciously modified Technics SL-1200!

So folks, what else should be on this list? :cool:

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

13-03-2016, 11:02

I'll do a little more work on this later and add seperate sections. I also think that the Caiman mk II + upgrades should be added alongside the Anker PSU.

Marco

13-03-2016, 13:00

Yeah, defo anything Beresford. I'll leave it with you :)

Marco.

DSJR

13-03-2016, 17:07

I think the Chromecast Audio is fine as well, especially as mine cost me £14 each :D if your wireless network is clean and you wish to stream network music files (currently), it's great and 'sounds' far better than you'd imagine by the price and visuals. Apparently VLC media player may support (Chrome)casting locally held music files too before too long and I await that with keen interest.

By the way, the little P20 passive preamp I make ought to be included if nothing else from the range, as it's 'only' £100 and doesn't 'sound' any different from the bigger more versatile models...

User211

13-03-2016, 19:10

Got that Chromecast thing too not tried it via the main system yet.

No TIDAL support though you can use BubbleUPnp. However, that does not support TIDAL phone buffered tracks.

Would also be better if it worked in the car. It will if you have an in-car router. I might set that up as I am a bit fed up with low latency Bluetooth, which skips when the phone is challenged for CPU by something else.

So cheap though for what it can do. Mad really.

RobbieGong

13-03-2016, 19:29

Wakefield Turntables

13-03-2016, 20:01

Updates and added a few more suggestions.

Barry

13-03-2016, 20:14

You need to add Mark Grant to the cables section as well. :)

RichB

13-03-2016, 22:23

+1 for the Chromecast audio. Cheap simple streaming for the price of a takeaway. I have two of them going in different systems in the house.

I'd also go along with the Croft Micro basic preamplifier too.

petrat

13-03-2016, 23:22

I understand the concept, but still trying to figure out what the initials SPPV actually stand for ... :scratch:

Anyway ... another vote for the Klotz MC5000 interconnects.
Also, the Jelco SA 750D is whole lot of tonearm for the money imo.

Arkless Electronics

14-03-2016, 00:07

Sound Per Pound Value I presume.....

StanleyB

14-03-2016, 00:38

Taking into account the initial brief of the OP, which is fantastic products at amazing value for money, then my TC-7220 MKII amp/speaker selector deserves consideration as well. There are actually more owners of one of them than there are of the Bushmaster and Caiman combined.

southall-1998

14-03-2016, 00:44

The NVA Sound Cord Interconnects should get a position in the list. Plenty detail retrieval for beer money.

S.

Marco

14-03-2016, 01:16

Sound Per Pound Value I presume.....

Bravo! :clap: ;)

Marco.

Audio Advent

14-03-2016, 01:33

I got the inspiration for this idea from reading the Klotz / MS Audio thread. I'd like to start a list of products & manufacturers that produce or have designed fantastic products at amazingly good value for money. So here's my nominations

I'd like this idea to work and ultimately this thread/sticky can be seen as a reference for other AOSer's who don't want to spend stupid amounts of money on Foo.

Endorsed by whom?

As I see it, the whole point of the forum is to discuss products and have people voice their VARIED and CONTRADICTORY opinions of them.. You can't just sum up the initial, individual's opinions of gear in threads and discard the discussion around them and then endorse it as a "summary" of SPPV. OK, well you can do that but it's pissing over everything else IMHO.

Isn't there increased danger of shilling or kickbacks from manufacturers too? How could anyone tell?

Audio Advent

14-03-2016, 01:44

Anything from Jez or Firebottle.

Marco.

Err... ? How many people who've listened to Firebottle's stuff, Arkless's (that Jez?) stuff would openly dare, socially, to criticise or declare it to be rubbish on AOS?

I can't see that their gear has ever had a fair and honest scrutiny on this forum simply because of the forum suicide, rebuttle and possibilly attack that would create.. more likely that people would keep their mouths shut or say something nice out of politeness (but not necessariily mean it).

Kind of looks like just helping mates out rather than an honest appraisal of SPPV to folks outside of regular AOS usership.

Perhaps a non-judgmental list of forum user's cottage industry products is more appropriate for that if one wants to actively promote cottage industry over and above other trade member's products?

Marco

14-03-2016, 06:26

Sam, that's complete bollocks, and in a way rather insulting, as it implies disingenuousness in those here who've nominated products, as a result of what you claim as "helping mates out". I can assure you that no products listed here have been mentioned for any reason other than that they fundamentally deliver the highest SPPV!

I mentioned equipment from Jez or Alan (Firebottle), in the context of high 'SPPV', because I've heard examples of their products in my own system, and compared/scrutinised them against other kit, some from commercial manufacturers costing considerably more, so I know from personal experience how highly they deliver on the SPPV front, hence me nominating them on this thread. And that will be exactly the same with others here who've nominated products from other manufacturers.

Therefore, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with "helping mates out". Many members here (and elsewhere), after having heard Arkless or Firebottle products in their own systems, have bought them with their hard-earned cash, indeed after having heard them significantly outperform commercial products, which they were using previously. Shelling out one's hard-earned cash is the biggest endorsement of all of a product's efficacy, which certainly wouldn't have happened had the kit in question not been any good, made by "mates" or not!

As such, I would have no qualms whatsoever giving, say, £1000 of my money either to Jez or Alan, to build me an amplifier or phono stage, and knowing that what I'd get back, in terms of sonic performance, would be superior to any £1k commercial item, and more likely the equivalent of something commercially produced costing considerably more.

And their respective talents as audio engineers aside, that's simply down to the fact that because they don't have the overheads of a commercial business to pay for, they can thus afford to use higher quality components in their products; more than any commercial manufacturer would be able to do with the same given budget, which is what delivering the highest 'SPPV' is all about.

As for this:

Perhaps a non-judgmental list of forum user's cottage industry products is more appropriate for that if one wants to actively promote cottage industry over and above other trade member's products?

Well, the majority of the so-called "cottage industry products" nominated and mentioned on this thread are produced by trade members, so I'm not quite sure what the point is you're making?

A core part of the AoS ethos is supporting small audio manufacturers, whose products deliver the highest SPPV, and identifying new ones when suitable candidates emerge, for the benefit of our membership, so that with their systems, they can obtain the 'biggest bang for their buck'. *That* is one of the key foundations upon which this site was built.

As such, AoS will always be much more about that, than facilitating the interests of so-called commercial high-end audio, much of which is simply audiophile jewellery or overpriced 'badge-fi' for those with more money than sense. Therefore, as far as we're concerned, long-live the deliverers of high SPPV, the products of whom have been listed here, and those aimed at genuine enthusiasts and music lovers, not simply key-janglers and badge snobs who often buy audio equipment for all the wrong reasons.

Marco.

RichB

14-03-2016, 08:27

The NVA Sound Cord Interconnects should get a position in the list. Plenty detail retrieval for beer money.

S.

Second that. They're good value.

Marco

14-03-2016, 08:37

You need to add Mark Grant to the cables section as well.

Indeed. The whole of Mark's product range offers very high SPPV :)

Marco.

Marco

14-03-2016, 08:46

Second that. They're good value.

I think we have to differentiate between products that undoubtedly offer high SPPV (which I agree pretty much all NVA stuff does), and those products that AoS would actively seek to endorse. There's a notable difference between both.

Whilst we have no issues whatsoever with members who use NVA equipment and cables, eulogising about it or recommending it, it's a different matter again it receiving the 'AoS seal of approval', as it were, and thus us seeking to actively promote it. I'm afraid that due to obvious factors (for those who know the history between the NVA owner and here), that simply isn't going to happen.

Therefore, by all means recommend NVA stuff, if you think it's warranted, but understand that because of what I've mentioned above, it will quite naturally *never* feature here in the category of officially AoS-endorsed products, nor will it be allowed to be actively promoted in any kind of commercial sense.

Marco.

Joe

14-03-2016, 08:59

Well, then I guess you need to clarify what 'AoS endorsed' means for the avoidance of doubt. Do nominations need the OK of yourself/the moderation team before they can be given that accolade?

CageyH

14-03-2016, 09:02

I agree on the Firebottle KIN and AIR. Fantastic value for money.
I also like the MC5000, but then again I would say that.

Marco

14-03-2016, 09:16

Well, then I guess you need to clarify what 'AoS endorsed' means for the avoidance of doubt. Do nominations need the OK of yourself/the moderation team before they can be given that accolade?

Nope, anything non-NVA, in that respect is fine, as we don't have such issues with any other manufacturer :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 09:18

Well, then I guess you need to clarify what 'AoS endorsed' means for the avoidance of doubt. Do nominations need the OK of yourself/the moderation team before they can be given that accolade?

Anyone can nominate a product which they think is well worth the money and gives serious value for money, your a member of AOS hence its AOS endorsed. How can the moderation team validate what passes for SPPV?

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 09:22

Isn't there increased danger of shilling or kickbacks from manufacturers too? How could anyone tell?

Yeah i shill and receive kick backs every day, really, do you really think GOOGLE are going to send me nice cheque at the end of the month for simply saying that the Chromecast which costs an earth shattering fourteen quid sounds so amazingly good. They flogged 20x10-6 units (that's twenty million) before this thread was started. DO A REALITY CHECK.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 09:25

NVA and Mark Grant will be added later. I would like SPECIFIC products nominated and not just "Any Mark Grant product"' he's realeased quite a few bits and bobs over the years.

myles

14-03-2016, 09:29

This is a pretty pointless list if you can't actually endorse components that are good value and quality, by virtue of their manufacturer.

Marco

14-03-2016, 09:30

Anyone can nominate a product which they think is well worth the money and gives serious value for money, your a member of AOS hence its AOS endorsed. How can the moderation team validate what passes for SPPV?

Indeed, the NVA issue aside, anything nominated for endorsement should be (as you say) a *specific* item (or items) within a manufacturer's product range, but also I would suggest, ones that have been subject to extensive discussion on the forum over some time, and where there is therefore a long history of user satisfaction.

Marco.

Marco

14-03-2016, 09:31

This is a pretty pointless list if you can't actually endorse components that are good value and quality, by virtue of their manufacturer.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. NVA aside (for good reasons, if you know the history), every other manufacturer's equipment is open for endorsement, provided that it's extensively used and recognised by AoS members as offering high SPPV, so what's the problem?

Marco.

Marco

14-03-2016, 09:33

NVA and Mark Grant will be added later.

Not NVA.

Marco.

YNWaN

14-03-2016, 09:39

Second that. They're good value.

Well, I guess that raises the question as to how many members of AoS have to think something is good value for it to qualify because I thought the SSC to be very average/poor. Now admittedly it isn't a very expensive interconnect but just because something is cheap it isn't necessarily good value.

r100

14-03-2016, 09:42

does DIY equipment qualify ? If so, it would probably trump ( no pun intended ) everything in the list relative to value for money.

Simon_LDT

14-03-2016, 09:46

r100

14-03-2016, 09:48

StanleyB

14-03-2016, 09:50

I would be concerned about organizing a pi$$ up in a brewery for AoS members. There would be a massive disagreement about which brewery, the types of beers, and about the folks who have no means of transport.

Marco

14-03-2016, 09:52

does DIY equipment qualify ? If so, it would probably trump ( no pun intended ) everything in the list relative to value for money.

Hi Rupert,

It does, but to make the exercise worthwhile, it would have to be stuff that's been subjected to significant scrutiny, in terms of its efficacy, and currently used, discussed and recommended on the forum by a significant number of members.

One-off items, used by only a handful of folks, wouldn't qualify. Think of stuff on the level of popularity of, say, the Klotz MC-5000 cables, Arkless/Firebottle/Beresford products, or the Raspberry Pi :)

The best example of all, of an 'AoS-endorsed' product, is the MC-5000 cables (with MS Audio plugs), simply because they were 'born' from a collective effort by AoS members, and weren't part of any manufacturer's product range, commercial or otherwise, so ideally, we'd like to see more of that!

Marco.

Marco

14-03-2016, 09:57

Like the idea of the thread in relation to SPPV but the ''endorsing'' products I personally think is not needed and will only open a can of worms at some point. Nowt wrong with members nominating products and discussing but I think posting it as ''endorsed'' by the forum/Mods/or whoever is not really needed. Unless I'm missing the point here?

Hi Simon,

The 'endorsement', as such, comes from the AoS community, as a whole: established products, tried and tested by members as offering the highest SPPV. It's not solely (and in fact very little) a mods or admin thing :)

As such, the list could be referred to and used by those seeking recommendations for a specific product, thus they can view them 'at a glance' on this thread (once it becomes a sticky), without having to trawl through the various sections of the forum, looking for recommendations on DACs, streamers, power supplies, cables or whatever.

It could certainly be used to pique interest in a specific product, and then those interested could search the archives for detailed discussion of the item(s) concerned. I think it's usefulness therefore, in that respect, is very real.

Marco.

r100

14-03-2016, 09:59

ok, so we have one genuine AoS "designed - produced - built - tested - endorsed" (AoS / DPBTE) product :D well, that's a start.. :) ... just joking man ! no offense.

Marco

14-03-2016, 10:03

Lol.... It would be great if we could come up with more :)

Marco.

r100

14-03-2016, 10:07

maybe there should be a separation between DIY and commercial items then ?

Concerning the "endorsement" of items, I still think it is not necessary to insist on that since it is impossible to know how many members actually would formally endorse an item unless there where a vote ? or am I missing something ? Endorsement of a product naturally transpires through the opinions of posters and doesn't have to be formalised IMHO.

CageyH

14-03-2016, 10:08

Sommer is coming Marco, I am just waiting for a good plug. ;)

To be fair, there will not be many AoS built products. If they are they are most likely to be cables as they are simple to do.
Other things likely to be there are things such as the DIY projects put forward such as the SL1200 PSU where PCBs were offered to forum members.

YNWaN

14-03-2016, 10:09

Hi Rupert,

It does, but to make the exercise worthwhile, it would have to be stuff that's been subjected to significant scrutiny, in terms of its efficacy, and currently used, discussed and recommended on the forum by a number of members.

One-off items, used by only a handful of folks, wouldn't qualify. Think of stuff on the level of popularity of, say, the Klotz MC-5000 cables, Arkless/Firebottle/Beresford products, or the Raspberry Pi :)

Marco.

But, in reality, aren't all of those products (perhaps not the Beresford) used by a relative handful of the AoS membership as a whole?

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 10:10

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 10:11

But, in reality, aren't all of those products (perhaps not the Beresford) used by a relative handful of the AoS membership as a whole?

Probably so.But the list won't grow if you don't your mouth and suggest something.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 10:12

Not NVA.

Marco.

NVA interconnects, keep up old boy.

YNWaN

14-03-2016, 10:12

The original idea is an organic concept and can be modified for the greater understanding of the community if it's means we get a community consensus of opinion with regards what we think are good value for money .

The concept of 'value for money' is such a relative one I doubt you will ever get any form of consensus (except perhaps for the cheapest of items).

r100

14-03-2016, 10:15

The original idea is an organic concept and can be modified for the greater understanding of the community if it's means we get a community consensus of opinion with regards what we think are good value for money . view the list as something that you can have a lot at for new ideas or inspiration for new systems.

Is that technically possible ? It would be nice to have a list of top AoS products voted by members. It would have to be dynamic for sure (i.e. not managed "by hand")

Marco

14-03-2016, 10:17

But, in reality, aren't all of those products (perhaps not the Beresford) used by a relative handful of the AoS membership as a whole?

I guess you'd have to start a poll, in order to gauge their genuine popularity. However, if you look at the popularity of the RPi/MC-5000 threads here, and the amount of discussion taking place on them (and indeed that has taken place so far), you'll see ample evidence that a significant number of members use those products.

In any case, it's only a list/guide for folks interested to read, not an official statistical analysis of who uses what.

Marco.

r100

14-03-2016, 10:18

The concept of 'value for money' is such a relative one I doubt you will ever get any form of consensus (except perhaps for the cheapest of items).

Then why not divide the list into price classes i.e. from 1-100, 101-200, pounds, euros whatever.

Marco

14-03-2016, 10:18

NVA interconnects, keep up old boy.

That's still an NVA product. *No* NVA products, cables or otherwise, will ever be 'officially endorsed' by AoS, so none should feature on your list.

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 10:19

Why don't we change the word "endorsed" to recommended? MODS could you modify the thread title to reflect this?

Marco

14-03-2016, 10:21

The concept of 'value for money' is such a relative one I doubt you will ever get any form of consensus (except perhaps for the cheapest of items).

It's not about value for money; that's an entirely different concept. It's about Sound-Per-Pound Value, which is something quite different, and rather easier to pigeonhole. Like Rupert says, recommendations, in that respect, could be offered at various price points.

For example, which phono stage, recommended by the AoS community, offers the biggest 'bang for buck', at under £1000, or which cables do the same for under £100, or whatever. The important criterion is that it's not simply *your* favourite whatever, but stuff that is widely used and 'endorsed' by AoS members, as delivering high SPPV :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 10:22

Gents, the time has now come for me to start doing some work, I've a few patients booked in so I shall let this debate percolate for a while and return tonight. Thanks so far for ALL input.

StanleyB

14-03-2016, 10:23

Why not change it to "worthy of consideration"? Better still, scrap the whole idea. The amount of negative vibes expressed by some folks is astonishing.

Marco

14-03-2016, 10:25

Why don't we change the word "endorsed" to recommended? MODS could you modify the thread title to reflect this?

Ok, sure :)

Marco.

Marco

14-03-2016, 10:26

Why not change it to "worthy of consideration"? Better still, scrap the whole idea. The amount of negative vibes expressed by some folks is astonishing.

I know, some folk seem to like to argue for argument's sake! :doh:

Marco.

myles

14-03-2016, 12:22

StanleyB

14-03-2016, 12:30

Has NVA unleashed its agents and provocateurs on this thread?

struth

14-03-2016, 12:32

As if they would Stan:lol:

RichB

14-03-2016, 12:33

That's still an NVA product. *No* NVA products, cables or otherwise, will ever be 'officially endorsed' by AoS, so none should feature on your list.

Marco.

Mmmm I hadn't realised this was heading down the road of an official endorsement for the suggested products.

Perhaps then the manufacturers are what should be endorsed. This could be on the basis of reliability, feedback, responsiveness etc.

I only suggested NVA soundcords as they are low cost and very good as well as widely used. I'm not however into the idea of official endorsements for stuff though.

Lead to the dark side it will.

Macca

14-03-2016, 12:33

Well, I guess that raises the question as to how many members of AoS have to think something is good value for it to qualify because I thought the SSC to be very average/poor. Now admittedly it isn't a very expensive interconnect but just because something is cheap it isn't necessarily good value.

You are one of very few people to have expressed that opinion (at least publically). I use them and I wouldn't if they were poor. I don't use them because they are cheap. Personal taste and equipment characteristics also have to come into it, especially with interconnect cables.

Does beg the question though that if one person says 'no, that's no good' does that mean that the product cannot be endorsed even if 20 others like it?

Marco

14-03-2016, 12:37

Just so I know for the future, are you saying that a list compiled by contributors cannot include any NVA product? It's hardly 'official endorsement', if such a thing can even exist - short of AoS; sponsored by Wrigleys.

I cannot make it any clearer than this:

As far as this thread is concerned, in terms of establishing AoS-recommended (and in turn actively promoted products on here, by the AoS membership), NVA equipment and cables are excluded, due to history with the manufacturer concerned.

That, however, does not preclude it from being discussed or recommended on any other thread, as a matter of course in relevant discussions, as indeed was the case before Andy started this thread, and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Hopefully that has now penetrated! ;)

Marco.

Marco

14-03-2016, 12:41

Mmmm I hadn't realised this was heading down the road of an official endorsement for the suggested products.

Perhaps then the manufacturers are what should be endorsed. This could be on the basis of reliability, feedback, responsiveness etc.

I only suggested NVA soundcords as they are low cost and very good as well as widely used. I'm not however into the idea of official endorsements for stuff though.

Lead to the dark side it will.

Rich, I take your point, but it's really just another way of condensing what kit here is considered by the membership (not just me) as good, instead of folk starting new threads in different sections of the forum, asking for recommendations on the best amp, phono stage, cables or whatever.

This way, the key products will all be listed on the one thread, for easy reference (for those who happen to read it), and thus will hopefully save folks some time searching through multiple threads and reams of prose to find the basic answer that they want. It's really no more 'sinister' than that :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 12:46

I think the Denon 103 + its variants need to added. I also think the White Belden interconnects that used to be sold at various pound stores need to be added.

Havana

14-03-2016, 12:50

Nope, anything non-NVA, in that respect is fine, as we don't have such issues with any other manufacturer :)

Marco.
Timestep ? MCRU ?

RichB

14-03-2016, 12:50

Has NVA unleashed its agents and provocateurs on this thread?

No doubt it will be widely discussed elsewhere. However we don't give a f##k about that do we? I'm sure we can all live without another round of inter forum ping pong.

I like NVA cables so I'll mention them here. I also like Croft preamps, amptastic mini-t amps, longdog psus, klotz cables, Chromecasts.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 12:55

Timestep ? MCRU ?

hmmmm interesting, Marco?

No doubt it will be widely discussed elsewhere. However we don't give a f##k about that do we? I'm sure we can all live without another round of inter forum ping pong.

I like NVA cables so I'll mention them here. I also like Croft preamps, amptastic mini-t amps, longdog psus, klotz cables, Chromecasts.

Would you like amp tastic and long dog on the list? Just give me some feedback why you like these products, I've not used anything by amptatsic or Nick.

Marco

14-03-2016, 12:58

Timestep ? MCRU ?

Hi Dave,

They're simply banned ex-trade members. There are others you could mention in a similar vein, all of whose products are regularly discussed and/or recommended here, but none of whom conduct a continual on-line hate campaign against AoS and me.

The latter is what makes NVA the exception, in terms of being allowed to be actively promoted here, such as would be the case if the equipment concerned formed part of the list on this proposed sticky thread, or if we entertained facilitating the loan scheme, currently being allowed by some minor (minimal significance) forums elsewhere.

Now, I insist that the thread returns on topic, and remains so. Any further off-topic comments and/or reference to that which is banned will be removed without further warning.

Marco.

Marco

14-03-2016, 13:01

No doubt it will be widely discussed elsewhere. However we don't give a f##k about that do we? I'm sure we can all live without another round of inter forum ping pong.

Indeed, so we'll nip it on the bud right there.

I like NVA cables so I'll mention them here. I also like Croft preamps, amptastic mini-t amps, longdog psus, klotz cables, Chromecasts.

And that is 110% fine. However, you'll also understand that they will never be on the list of AoS recommended products, for the entirely justified reasons given. Ok, folks, back on topic! :)

Marco.

r100

14-03-2016, 13:01

I come back to the point I tried to make earlier which in essence would be a member updatable list of items with some kind of rating system similar to the voting system, categorized by type, price, etc.. No discussions, etc. only ratings (1-10 stars for instance). Would this be technically possible on this platform ?

myles

14-03-2016, 13:09

I cannot make it any clearer than this:

As far as this thread is concerned, in terms of establishing AoS-recommended (and in turn actively promoted products on here, by the AoS membership), NVA equipment and cables are excluded, due to history with the manufacturer concerned.

That, however, does not preclude it from being discussed or recommended on any other thread, as a matter of course, as indeed was the case before Andy started this thread.

Hopefully that has now penetrated! ;)

Marco.

No need for the tone. Got it loud and clear.

Just to clarify, I am not an NVA agent Stan. I have used your products and also expertise and would recommend you also.

Marco

14-03-2016, 13:13

Good. "The tone" was because you kept repeating essentially the same thing, rather flippantly, and appeared to have a pro-NVA agenda, which prompted Stan to post what he did. Anyway, you understand how things are now, so let's move on! :)

Marco.

YNWaN

14-03-2016, 13:30

Probably so.But the list won't grow if you don't your mouth and suggest something.

I'm guessing you missed out 'open' as in "if you don't open your mouth and suggest something"?

Assuming so, well there is nothing in my system that is widely used by any AoS members and nothing springs to mind that is used by the likely majority of the membership. If you are looking for things that are already regularly recommended on threads then cables from Mark Grant, RFC, Flashback etc. - other than that there are all the Technics mods and Paul's crossover rebuilds etc. - all of which have been mentioned already. I suspect that only a small percentage of the AoS membership own any of them though.

Actually, I do use a couple of Flashback cables.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 13:31

Gazjam

14-03-2016, 13:48

Shout out for Paul Stewarts "The Right One" record cleaning fluid.
Best I've used by quite a large margin.

And another for the Klotz MC5000/MS Audio RCA's that a lot of us lot use.
Recommend the silver RCAs, heard gold and rhodium and silvers better in my system.
YMMV

Arkless Electronics

14-03-2016, 14:12

I'll join Stan in "bigging up" up some of my own products for inclusion here specifically on SPPV:

Arkless 640P standard version: You need a donor Cambridge 640P/651P for conversion but I charge only £185 + P&P for conversion and to the best of my knowledge it has no rivals at anywhere near this price. Loads of rave reviews can be found with a quick search and it seemed to be agreed that the Dynavector P75 at about £650 was the cheapest commercially available product to match it. At this point some preferred the Arkless and some the Dynavector.

Arkless Head Amp: Newly available, one good review by Ali Tait so far and awaiting review from the fount master Barry (who has said he's very impressed so far in a PM). The battery only version starts at £150 and will beat sub £1000 SUT's... ow's that for SPPV!?

StanleyB

14-03-2016, 17:22

I'll join Stan in "bigging up" up some of my own products for inclusion here specifically on SPPV:

Arkless Head Amp: Newly available, one good review by Ali Tait so far and awaiting review from the fount master Barry (who has said he's very impressed so far in a PM). The battery only version starts at £150 and will beat sub £1000 SUT's... ow's that for SPPV!?
I was under the impression that the list is based on already established items that have stood the test of time ;).

Barry

14-03-2016, 17:55

NVA and Mark Grant will be added later. I would like SPECIFIC products nominated and not just "Any Mark Grant product"' he's realeased quite a few bits and bobs over the years.

The only Mark Grant product I have heard is his G1000HD cable, so that is the only one I can recommend as having good SPPV. Some of Mark's cables are very expensive, so I will leave it to others to comment if they think they also offer good SPPV.

I can concur NVA Soundcord cables offer good SPPV; I have heard them in my own system. I haven't heard any other NVA cable, so cannot comment.

Would also like Flashback Cables to be added. They are no-nonsense cables, using good quality connectors and made to the customer's requirements for a very reasonable outlay. In general I prefer to make up my own cables, but sometimes for the sake of expediency (especially if I need cables terminated in DIN connectors) I will readily use Flashback.

r100

14-03-2016, 18:01

what we need is a programmer :D

Gazjam

14-03-2016, 18:04

I was under the impression that the list is based on already established items that have stood the test of time ;).

http://www.thefatcontroller.co.uk/portfolio/albums/userpics/tv_burp_fight-film_digital2.jpg

Arkless Electronics

14-03-2016, 18:21

I was under the impression that the list is based on already established items that have stood the test of time ;).

Completely irrelevant IMHO. The product is good... damn good... The market for head amps is a very small one so how many does one have to sell before it becomes "established"?

walpurgis

14-03-2016, 18:23

Could a rating out of ten be useful? Members with experience of specified products could rate them. I don't know if this could easily be implimented though.

r100

14-03-2016, 18:25

anybody should be able to rate.. all based on confidence. as it is now. Let the vote be subject to discussion and not the item or manufacturer.

StanleyB

14-03-2016, 18:28

Completely irrelevant IMHO. The product is good... damn good... The market for head amps is a very small one so how many does one have to sell before it becomes "established"?I don't know how many one would have to sell, but in my case it runs into the hundreds per product each year. Maybe I should put my phono preamp design on the market as well if there are sales to be had :).

Marco

14-03-2016, 18:28

Completely irrelevant IMHO. The product is good... damn good... The market for head amps is a very small one so how many does one have to sell before it becomes "established"?

Well, I'd certainly say that your Arkless 640P is "established"... How many do you reckon you've sold to date? :)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

14-03-2016, 18:36

Well, I'd certainly say that your Arkless 640P is "established"... How many do you reckon you've sold to date? :)

Marco.

I've not kept records but probably 60 -70 or so....

Marco

14-03-2016, 19:16

Defo "established" then, IMO, in the context of a very small business :)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

14-03-2016, 19:23

Defo "established" then, IMO, for a very small business :)

Marco.

Indeed!

Hopefully the head amp will become more established as people come to learn that the "SUT's always beat head amps" mantra one sees bandied about is absolute bollocks, as you can testify yourself;)

r100

14-03-2016, 19:26

isn't there a *bollocks" smiley @ AoS ? :D

Arkless Electronics

14-03-2016, 19:30

isn't there a *bollocks" smiley @ AoS ? :D

A scary prospect! I did get "testify" in though :D

struth

14-03-2016, 19:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dHM84oo8DZ0

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 19:36

Why not change it to "worthy of consideration"? Better still, scrap the whole idea. The amount of negative vibes expressed by some folks is astonishing.

Stan, trust me if I keep getting negative vibes I'll just stop bothering and the bretheren that post negative shitty little comments can go and amuse themselves behing a wall for five minutes :wanker:, get my drift. :D

I come back to the point I tried to make earlier which in essence would be a member updatable list of items with some kind of rating system similar to the voting system, categorized by type, price, etc.. No discussions, etc. only ratings (1-10 stars for instance). Would this be technically possible on this platform ?

Well lets start giving marks out of ten, remember I said the concept was flexibly organic, I've not had any gradings so I cant really implement something that I don't have!

I'm guessing you missed out 'open' as in "if you don't open your mouth and suggest something"?

Assuming so, well there is nothing in my system that is widely used by any AoS members and nothing springs to mind that is used by the likely majority of the membership. If you are looking for things that are already regularly recommended on threads then cables from Mark Grant, RFC, Flashback etc. - other than that there are all the Technics mods and Paul's crossover rebuilds etc. - all of which have been mentioned already. I suspect that only a small percentage of the AoS membership own any of them though.

Actually, I do use a couple of Flashback cables.

Mark, yes, IPADitis struck I should have used the word "open". I shall add Flashblack cables, any one in particular, and how much did it cost?

I'll join Stan in "bigging up" up some of my own products for inclusion here specifically on SPPV:

Arkless 640P standard version: You need a donor Cambridge 640P/651P for conversion but I charge only £185 + P&P for conversion and to the best of my knowledge it has no rivals at anywhere near this price. Loads of rave reviews can be found with a quick search and it seemed to be agreed that the Dynavector P75 at about £650 was the cheapest commercially available product to match it. At this point some preferred the Arkless and some the Dynavector.

Arkless Head Amp: Newly available, one good review by Ali Tait so far and awaiting review from the fount master Barry (who has said he's very impressed so far in a PM). The battery only version starts at £150 and will beat sub £1000 SUT's... ow's that for SPPV!?

Jez. I'll add the 640P but not the head amp. Your 640P is well established and quite sort after, your Head Amp isn't really something that's sold very well. I've requested a demo, remember? Incidently, we are going to "BIG" up products or rely on demo's from loaner units. I want to see products that have stood the test of time and have been discussed on lots of forums.

I was under the impression that the list is based on already established items that have stood the test of time ;).

Stan, see my above comment.

The only Mark Grant product I have heard is his G1000HD cable, so that is the only one I can recommend as having good SPPV. Some of Mark's cables are very expensive, so I will leave it to others to comment if they think they also offer good SPPV.

I can concur NVA Soundcord cables offer good SPPV; I have heard them in my own system. I haven't heard any other NVA cable, so cannot comment.

Would also like Flashback Cables to be added. They are no-nonsense cables, using good quality connectors and made to the customer's requirements for a very reasonable outlay. In general I prefer to make up my own cables, but sometimes for the sake of expediency (especially if I need cables terminated in DIN connectors) I will readily use Flashback.

Barry, OK, I'll add the G1000HD. Can you stipulate which Flashback cable you've tried and the cost. I'll add that as well.

Could a rating out of ten be useful? Members with experience of specified products could rate them. I don't know if this could easily be implimented though.

Why not start giving some of the products marks out of 10.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 19:57

List updated again.

r100

14-03-2016, 19:57

A scary prospect! I did get "testify" in though :D

hmmm, couldn't find the testicule smiley either !!

:eyebrows:

r100

14-03-2016, 19:59

Well lets start giving marks out of ten, remember I said the concept was flexibly organic, I've not had any gradings so I cant really implement something that I don't have!

.

I like the organic and flexible part. That could be achieved via some programming. But I guess we don't have the critical mass here to get a sufficient amount of data.

Arkless Electronics

14-03-2016, 20:05

Stan, trust me if I keep getting negative vibes I'll just stop bothering and the bretheren that post negative shitty little comments can go and amuse themselves behing a wall for five minutes :wanker:, get my drift. :D

Well lets start giving marks out of ten, remember I said the concept was flexibly organic, I've not had any gradings so I cant really implement something that I don't have!

Mark, yes, IPADitis struck I should have used the word "open". I shall add Flashblack cables, any one in particular, and how much did it cost?

Jez. I'll add the 640P but not the head amp. Your 640P is well established and quite sort after, your Head Amp isn't really something that's sold very well. I've requested a demo, remember? Incidently, we are going to "BIG" up products or rely on demo's from loaner units. I want to see products that have stood the test of time and have been discussed on lots of forums.

Stan, see my above comment.

Barry, OK, I'll add the G1000HD. Can you stipulate which Flashback cable you've tried and the cost. I'll add that as well.

Why not start giving some of the products marks out of 10.

I haven't forgotten you asked for a demo of the head amp no :) It has been posted on by Barry now and Grant should get it tomorrow. You are next on the list after Grant. It's hardly likely to have sold well when you will be only the fourth person to hear it and it's only been available for a fortnight! ;)
You'll probably get it before the Hybrid Phono Stage which is also on its way to you of course, if by a tortuous route...

I'm not too sure about the rating out of 10 :scratch: I guess it has to be combination of outright sound quality and VFM to give an overall figure? But in whose opinion.... Two different people may rate the same unit at 3 and 9 respectively! I guess this is where "established" comes into play, however, certain products are rather niche and so wouldn't be expected to sell as well as other more mainstream products. E.G. streaming is more popular than vinyl and people needing a head amp to use a MC with a MM only phono stage are a smaller subset of that group, hence 10 may be "established" for a head amp but 100+ of a VFM digital product may be sold in an equivalent time.

Pieoftheday

14-03-2016, 20:14

Dont many of us recommend products already in the various sections?:sofa:

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 20:17

I haven't forgotten you asked for a demo of the head amp no :) It has been posted on by Barry now and Grant should get it tomorrow. You are next on the list after Grant. It's hardly likely to have sold well when you will be only the fourth person to hear it and it's only been available for a fortnight! ;)
You'll probably get it before the Hybrid Phono Stage which is also on its way to you of course, if by a tortuous route...

I'm not too sure about the rating out of 10 :scratch: I guess it has to be combination of outright sound quality and VFM to give an overall figure? But in whose opinion.... Two different people may rate the same unit at 3 and 9 respectively! I guess this is where "established" comes into play, however, certain products are rather niche and so wouldn't be expected to sell as well as other more mainstream products. E.G. streaming is more popular than vinyl and people needing a head amp to use a MC with a MM only phono stage are a smaller subset of that group, hence 10 may be "established" for a head amp but 100+ of a VFM digital product may be sold in an equivalent time.

Thanks looking forward to getting the head amp. The "mark out of 10 system" is something that others have suggested and being flexible am happy to integrate into the list. I honestly think that it overly complicates things and think it's a bit pointless as every opinion is different. I prefer the "established" product route, just like your 640P v your head amp.

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 20:18

Dont many of us recommend products already in the various sections?:sofa:

YES! This is a condensed resource so you don't have to go trawling around the site. Which bit of Wakey are you from?

Pieoftheday

14-03-2016, 20:28

YES! This is a condensed resource so you don't have to go trawling around the site. Which bit of Wakey are you from?

Durkar at the.moment:)

r100

14-03-2016, 20:43

Add to the list ?

various upgrades for Quad amps, notably for the 306. One source I know and have used is http://dadaelectronics.eu/shop/quad-upgrade-kits = very good V and gives you a fresh amp

Wakefield Turntables

14-03-2016, 21:55

Durkar at the.moment:)

Durkar, Know it quite well.

Add to the list ?

various upgrades for Quad amps, notably for the 306. One source I know and have used is http://dadaelectronics.eu/shop/quad-upgrade-kits = very good V and gives you a fresh amp

Yeah I'm aware of the upgrades I have a fully modded Net Audio 405-2.

Jimbo

15-03-2016, 07:58

May I just say it's very good of you putting this together Andy as I know it can't be easy with so many potential items wishing to be listed.

Should help anyone wanting to build a system take a short cut to tried, tested and proven products without all the uncertainty of whether they are any good or not.

Marco

15-03-2016, 08:21

Should help anyone wanting to build a system short cut to tried, tests and proven products without all the uncertainty of whether they are any good or not.

I think you might need to rewrite that last sentence, as the bits in bold no makey any sensey... ;)

Marco.

Firebottle

15-03-2016, 08:29

I think what James meant was:
.... to build a system by using a short cut to tried, tested and proven products ...... :)

Macca

15-03-2016, 08:30

StanleyB

15-03-2016, 08:36

if this is going to happen might I suggest the list be titled 'Worthy of Consideration' rather than 'marks out of ten' or 'this is the best in class' since there will never be universal agreement on anything so it is best to avoid absolutes.

'Worthy of Consideration' meaning if you are in the market for one this is worth taking the time for a demo, and nothing more.
I refer my learned friend to post #55 on page http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43868-AOS-recommended-SPPV-products-just-an-idea-for-a-sticky/page6 where that suggestion has already been put forward.

Macca

15-03-2016, 08:38

I refer my learned friend to post #55 on page http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43868-AOS-recommended-SPPV-products-just-an-idea-for-a-sticky/page6 where that suggestion has already been put forward.

Then we are in agreement :)

We surely don't want some idiotic 5 star rating system like What (sic) Hi Fi. I've always thought trying to catagorise audio equipment like that was idiotic, although I suppose it does help out the hard of thinking.

Marco

15-03-2016, 08:54

I think what James meant was:
.... to build a system by using a short cut to tried, tested and proven products ...... :)

Yes, that's better, and it is indeed the WHOLE POINT of this thread.

Marco.

Marco

15-03-2016, 08:55

Yup, I'd also go with the 'Worthy of Consideration' thing :)

Marco.

Jimbo

15-03-2016, 09:42

I think what James meant was:
.... to build a system by using a short cut to tried, tested and proven products ...... :)

Cheers Alan/Marco,

I was using phone to type and with predictive text and fat fingers it all went a bit nonsensical!

Thanks for the correction.😄

YNWaN

15-03-2016, 13:39

Mark, yes, IPADitis struck I should have used the word "open". I shall add Flashblack cables, any one in particular, and how much did it cost?

The two I use are both from Flasback's Premiere range and are custom in that they have non-standard terminations (Flashback are happy to customise a cable at minimal extra cost). A metre cable of Premiere is about £43.00 but most of their cables are half that price. Flashback are particularly good if you are looking for Naim or Quad leads but can do pretty much anything.

Barry

15-03-2016, 16:26

Barry, OK, I'll add the G1000HD. Can you stipulate which Flashback cable you've tried and the cost. I'll add that as well.

I don't remember exactly - there were a couple of DIN plug terminated leads for Quad equipment and an attenuating lead for use with CD players. I'll look at the Flashback site to remind me and get back to you.

Wakefield Turntables

15-03-2016, 20:04

The two I use are both from Flasback's Premiere range and are custom in that they have non-standard terminations (Flashback are happy to customise a cable at minimal extra cost). A metre cable of Premiere is about £43.00 but most of their cables are half that price. Flashback are particularly good if you are looking for Naim or Quad leads but can do pretty much anything.

Thanks, cables added.

I don't remember exactly - there were a couple of DIN plug terminated leads for Quad equipment and an attenuating lead for use with CD players. I'll look at the Flashback site to remind me and get back to you.

I'll add these when you get back to me Barry.

Wakefield Turntables

15-03-2016, 20:06

Flashback IC's added.

YNWaN

15-03-2016, 20:20

I use a Witch Hat Audio 'HatPin' (HP5) Snaic replacement between my Naim pre-amp and my modified Naim Hi-Cap power supply - works very well and sounds noticeably more open than Naim's Black Snaic - cost is £119.99.

Ryan Sound Labs make superb replacement boards that massively upgrade the internals of Naim 'shoe box' pre-amps - prices vary depending on the variations chosen (can also add remote volume control). Avondale Audio and Neil Jadman also make alternative board replacements that are different but also work well.

Yomanze

19-03-2016, 09:36

Lossless streaming.

My own experience with downloading started with Audiogalaxy in 1998, taking 5 minutes to download each song, listening to it though computer speakers. It wasn't HiFi, but it was revolutionary for music discovery.

As time went on I got a HagUSB, which was the first time that computer audio started to get close to using CD transports. More time goes on, we now have broadband, lossless streaming, and asynchronous USB - my Halide Bridge finally made me stop using mechanical transports. Finally, computer audio can get *better* results than using a CD transport.

Now, I spend £30 a month for unlimited streaming of millions of songs rather than spending my time skint and in record stores! Nowadays, I slowly build & rebuild a core collection of higher quality physical media, which has suddenly become a lot cheaper on CD.