DL103R in SME 3012 mkII

[drSM]

Hi All
I have put 103R which sits in an old ADC headshell (7.5g) I am told, back into the 3012 arm.
Decided to give it another go.
Its tracking at 2.6 g. Generally sounds good.
Wonder if things might be better if

1. I used a heavier headshell ?
2. I get another weight at the back of the arm, so that there are 2 smaller weights to adjust tracking force.

the above would increase the mass of the whole assembly which keeps the 103R happy.
Am i on the right track?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I ran this combo for a few weeks before I sold my 103R and was very happy with the combination I later went onto the 103M. You need a slightly higher mass head shell, tracking at 2.4g is probably better (altough subjective) you also need to make sure the VTA is spot on. In all honesty I would speak to Marco, he's had probably every variation of the 103 over the years and messed around with them for far longer than me. Good luck.

[Marco]

Hi Shahrin,

Nice TD124! :respect:

An SME 3012 is an excellent arm upon which to mount a Denon DL-103. As it's a 12" arm, and thus heavier than most 9" ones, you don't need to add as much mass as usual to the headshell of the partnering tonearm.

However, you can improve things further, which I can confirm from experience. My advice would be to purchase an Audio Technica MG10 magnesium headshell, such as this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-AUDIO-TECHNICA-HEAD-SHELL-AT-MG-10-from-JAPAN-/121663094513?hash=item1c53af7ef1:g:uRkAAOSwHjNWBkV N

For three main reasons:

1) Magnesium (which your ADC is also made from) is one of the best materials available for damping resonance.

2) The 10g weight of the MG10 will be spot on for your needs.

3) Experience tells me (as I first started using MG10s, with DL-103s in the 1980s) that the Denon really 'likes' this headshell. Call it 'sonic synergy'.

Try it and I guarantee that you'll notice a significant improvement in performance! :)

As for counterweights, etc, my advice would be that what you're aiming for is to have the main one as close to the arm's pivot point as possible, thus reducing the vertical moment of inertia of the arm, and allowing it to track warps more evenly, whilst still balancing the weight of the cartridge.

Therefore, it's a matter of selecting a suitable combination of counterweights (or counterweight), which will combine to deliver that effect, especially considering that by adding more headshell mass, you're need to position the c/w further back on the arm, in order to balance the cartridge, and thus further away from the pivot point, which is the opposite of what you want, so you'll need to use a heavier counterweight.

2.6g is spot on the optimal VTF for a DL-103, with around 2.2/2.3g anti-skate.

Aside from the MG10 headshell, there are a couple of further (very effective) tweaks you can do, at relatively low cost, which will further increase performance. If you're interested, let me know :cool:

Marco.

[drSM]

Thanks gents
On an earlier post i mentioned i ditched the 103r for a humble Nag mp11 and one of u guys couldnt figure why!
I ve been reading a few threads here such as the headshell for jelco somewhere here where there was some fireworks :) and have decided to put the 103 back in
The other headshell i have is the perforated SME which i assume is not the best for the 103

I also learnt that a v15 iii could work good in a jelco 750 if u have the right headshell but i digress

I will get the 10g Mg shell but that could take some time and i will look at an eBayer who has some brass weights for SMEs
Have a great week

[drSM]

Hi Marco
I noticed that on another current 103R thread u suggested http://www.ebay.fr/itm/NEW-Audio-Technica-AT6106-Headshell-Leads-/351660046567?hash=item51e09278e7:g:VnMAAOSwUuFWyxK O&rmvSB=true
Are these leads to put in with the 10g headshell?
Ta
S

[Marco]

Hi Shahrin,

They are indeed. I've tested about 20 different pairs of headshell leads, with a DL-103, and those, IMO, offer the most neutral and detailed presentation. They are quite superb, really, at maintaining the integrity of the signal from the cartridge.

If you're feeling particularly frivolous, I've also had superb results with these Mpingo spacers (must be the Mpingo ones, not the others), which seem to add a further layer of damping, and thus ensure less coloration of the music:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190506528284?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

They simply slip between the cartridge and headshell, and weigh no more than 1g, so not liable to upset optimal mass in your application. The seller is also 100% trustworthy and efficient, as I've bought a number of them now from him.

Highly recommended, if you really want to do the job properly! :cool:

Marco.

[drSM]

Hi Marco,
If u wanna do it, better do it properly, huh.
Frivolity an essential ingredient
Mpingo or panga panga?
Oh I see now have to make a choice, so its mpingo :)

[Marco]

Mpingo's the one. When everything arrives, let us know how you get on :)

Marco.

[drSM]

i might be popping down to Spore soon
Lots of HiFi there
Aside from the ADC 10g Mg headshell is there any other particular brand with the same or similar spec that would do the job, Marco ?
Ta
s

[Marco]

Hi Shahrin,

The 10g magnesium headshell I recommended wasn't an ADC one, it was from Audio Technica: an MG-10.

There are of course many other headshells around, but few are made from magnesium (most are a type of aluminium, which I consider as inferior), so that's why I recommended the AT MG-10 :)

Marco.

[drSM]

Have ordered
AT MG10
mpingo
Heavier rider weight for 3012

New belt from Turntable Basics
Springs from Hanze to replace the motor grommets on the 124
The above to try to eliminate or at least diminish rumble or whatever noise it is that is especially bad on one of my 124 s
Will report back in due course

[Marco]

Nice one, Shahrin. Should be good! :cool:

Marco.

[drSM]

Get some kip Marco :)

[Marco]

Lol - was up listening to some choons, and it's the weekend, so a late one (early one?) is allowed... Time for zeds now, though! :goodnight:

Marco.

[kttiong]

Hi Marcos,

thanks for passing and sharing all your valuable experience in regards to sme 3012 s2 setup.

Currently, im using a sme 3012 s2 with a spu g headshell and denon dl 103. It sounds alright to me but just wondering if you have previously tried out this combo and you comment is highly appreciated.

Cheers! And a very happy new year to you.

Kttiong

[IslandPink]

As for counterweights, etc, my advice would be that what you're aiming for is to have the main one as close to the arm's pivot point as possible, thus reducing the vertical moment of inertia of the arm,
Marco.

I used this exact combination a few years ago and can confirm you need (i) extra headshell mass, as ever with the 103R, and (ii) an extra ( or heavier) counterweight and keep it close to the pivot as Marco says. If you just move the normal counterweight back, the 'give' in the rubbery bushings of the 3012 makes the whole thing sound slow with poor bass tone.
I will also re-iterate my preference for 2.35 to 2.4g tracking for the 103R , counter to Marco :), I have experimented many times over 15 years on this and the 103R sounds dead and toneless to me at 2.6g .

[kttiong]

I used this exact combination a few years ago and can confirm you need (i) extra headshell mass, as ever with the 103R, and (ii) an extra ( or heavier) counterweight and keep it close to the pivot as Marco says. If you just move the normal counterweight back, the 'give' in the rubbery bushings of the 3012 makes the whole thing sound slow with poor bass tone.
I will also re-iterate my preference for 2.35 to 2.4g tracking for the 103R , counter to Marco :), I have experimented many times over 15 years on this and the 103R sounds dead and toneless to me at 2.6g .

Ahhh... will try as per your advice. Ta.
What about if to compare with other headshell eg AT as what Marco prefers? Any comparison?

[walpurgis]

I had the 103R sounding very good indeed in a low mass Mission 774 at 2.2 grams with a moderate amount of fluid damping, but that's a different story.

In the SME, I'd reckon the heaviest and most rigid cast aluminium (not magnesium obviously) headshell you can find would be the way to go.

[kttiong]

I had the 103R sounding very good indeed in a low mass Mission 774 at 2.2 grams with a moderate amount of fluid damping, but that's a different story.

In the SME, I'd reckon the heaviest and most rigid cast aluminium (not magnesium obviously) headshell you can find would be the way to go.

That's my current thinking with my SME s2 setup, the heavier the better?. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[walpurgis]

That's my current thinking with my SME s2 setup, the heavier the better?. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've never heard anybody complain about having too much headshell mass when using a 103. :)

[alphaGT]

Just drop a penny on it!

Kidding of course, might I suggest the Soundsmith EZ Mount Headshell Kit. (They've got them at Music Direct) but it's a set of 4 different kinds of thumb screws for mounting cartridges, Poly, Aluminum, Stainless, and Brass, from 1 gram to 6 grams.

It may not solve all of your concerns, but it may prove good fun to change the mass of the headshell and experiment with the damping of the different materials. And it won't break the bank, a good "Tweak" perhaps? And findings may steer you in the right direction?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[drSM]

Hi All
Ah i didnt realise there were further contributions to this thread, Thanks
I ve been collecting bits and bobs:

Nerve Audio Viscera Copper Litz Wire Headshell Leads
MOGAMI 2844 TONEARM WIRE Ultraflex 32 awg
Audio Technica MG-10 Magnesium Headshell
Ebony headshell damper (Mpingo)
Heavier brass rider weight for 3012(twice the weight of standard)
New bearings for the 3012 II
New belt from Turntable Basics
Springs from Hanze to replace the motor grommets on the 124

I will replace the cool L shaped armboard that i got from eastern europe somewhere (bit thin) with the ugly oversized thick wooden Swiss one that came with the tt and arm.

Recenly did and AB test and the tt as set up right now is clearly inferior in sound quality as compared to another 124 II carrying a Graham 1.5 and Shure V15 III
We should have that done by next weekend
Any comments before i proceed?

[Marco]

Missed the recent contributions to this thread...


I will also re-iterate my preference for 2.35 to 2.4g tracking for the 103R , counter to Marco :), I have experimented many times over 15 years on this and the 103R sounds dead and toneless to me at 2.6g .

Lol... Well, you're quite right to experiment! The reality is that there is no such thing as a 'one size fits all' recommendation for anything in hi-fi, including the 'ideal' downforce for any cartridge. Remember also that when adjusting VTF, essentially you're tailoring the sound to suit your system.

Therefore, if it sounds better to you tracking a 103R at 2.35 to 2.4g (which incidentally is less than the manufacturer's recommended 2.5g), then do so.

However, I've always found that best results with any cartridge are achieved by tracking it at the upper end of the recommended range, especially as I insist on achieving secure tracking and a solid and 'effortless' sound.

The very last thing I want is to be playing some demanding music, such as highly-modulated female vocals, or the loudest crescendos during some pieces of large-scale classical music, and the sound to distort and fall apart, which in my experience can happen when too light a downforce is applied.

You might not be aware of that happening until you play a piece of music that catches out the set up of your cartridge...

So what you want is the stylus firmly planted in the groove, not skipping about the place, when the going gets tough...or damage to record groove-walls can result, and then your precious record is fooked! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Kttiong.


Hi Marcos,

thanks for passing and sharing all your valuable experience in regards to sme 3012 s2 setup.

Currently, im using a sme 3012 s2 with a spu g headshell and denon dl 103. It sounds alright to me but just wondering if you have previously tried out this combo and you comment is highly appreciated.

Cheers! And a very happy new year to you.


Sorry for the late reply. It's hard these days keeping up with all the topics started!

Lots of people have used 103s in SPU headshells (if you can get them to fit ok), with good results. However, let's remember that an SPU headshell was designed to optimise an SPU, not a 103, so for me you can do better.

Personally, I'd follow the advice I gave earlier to Shahrin, as for me, that is arguably the ultimate way of getting a 103 to sing :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi All
Ah i didnt realise there were further contributions to this thread, Thanks
I ve been collecting bits and bobs:

Nerve Audio Viscera Copper Litz Wire Headshell Leads
MOGAMI 2844 TONEARM WIRE Ultraflex 32 awg
Audio Technica MG-10 Magnesium Headshell
Ebony headshell damper (Mpingo)
Heavier brass rider weight for 3012(twice the weight of standard)
New bearings for the 3012 II
New belt from Turntable Basics
Springs from Hanze to replace the motor grommets on the 124

I will replace the cool L shaped armboard that i got from eastern europe somewhere (bit thin) with the ugly oversized thick wooden Swiss one that came with the tt and arm.

Recenly did and AB test and the tt as set up right now is clearly inferior in sound quality as compared to another 124 II carrying a Graham 1.5 and Shure V15 III
We should have that done by next weekend
Any comments before i proceed?

No, just get it all fitted and up and running, and let us know how it sounds! :)

You'll have a lot of fine-tuning and adjusting to do before getting everything spot-on, so keep us posted how you're getting on with that, and illustrate (with good, clear, close-up pics) how things are looking when everything has been assembled.

Good luck and enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

[drSM]

I have dimantled the 3012 from the armboard and slid off all the weights and bits that come off easily.
Taken the arm and new bits to my pal Lee but not the 124 yet.
He is going to do the arm first.

pics show the arm as it was with new brass rider, new MG10 headshell, mpingo spacer, headshell Litz wires i got from Nerve audio off eBay

[drSM]

At Lee's we dismantled the arm to its component bits.
50 year old wires in the arm were oxidised and looked crappy.
i had a feel of the bearings x2 in the SME . Not too gritty considering age but will be replaced with new bearings from SKF.
The knife edge on the arm wand is fine

pics show new belt, new wire from Mogami for arm, motor grommets from Hanse, pics of the old big armboard which we will refurbish and use again instead of the L shaped armboard from earlier pics which i got from Moldova and is a bit thin.

[drSM]

The upgrade is taking a bit of time as we are getting a new bronze base custom made for the SME.

I feel like sprucing up the whole tt
Currently it sits in a plinth i made up using 3 slabs of Ikea timber kitchen table top made of beech i think.
Its not the prettiest thing.

What is the general opinion re the use of the synthetic nterial Corian to make plinths for idlers or indeed any tt ?
Lovely colours and designs available.

[alphaGT]

The upgrade is taking a bit of time as we are getting a new bronze base custom made for the SME.

I feel like sprucing up the whole tt
Currently it sits in a plinth i made up using 3 slabs of Ikea timber kitchen table top made of beech i think.
Its not the prettiest thing.

What is the general opinion re the use of the synthetic nterial Corian to make plinths for idlers or indeed any tt ?
Lovely colours and designs available.

Corian should make a very dense, stable plinth. It's resonant frequency should be super high compared to wood? I use a question mark because I'm speculating. But lack of grain and density should make a very good substance to work with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[drSM]

Cheers Russell

[jusbe]

The upgrade is taking a bit of time as we are getting a new bronze base custom made for the SME.

I feel like sprucing up the whole tt
Currently it sits in a plinth i made up using 3 slabs of Ikea timber kitchen table top made of beech i think.
Its not the prettiest thing.

What is the general opinion re the use of the synthetic nterial Corian to make plinths for idlers or indeed any tt ?
Lovely colours and designs available.

PTP use Corian very successfully with their repurposed idler drives.

http://www.ptpaudio.com/products.html

[drSM]

PTP use Corian very successfully with their repurposed idler drives.

http://www.ptpaudio.com/products.html

modern "Lenco" in Corian plinth, hmmm nice. thanks for the info

[drSM]

OK time to report back on my efforts trying to get the best out of the DL103R on my rig.

I had to do quite a bit of work on the 124, building on some major works abt 3 years ago.
This is the noisier of my 124s. i have succeeded in massively reducing rumble. Its pretty darn quiet now.
It was not the idler that was making 99% of the noise, as I had always assumed - it was a worn out ball bearing at the tip of the shaft spindle.
That was the culprit.
The idler ( on this one is from audiosilente ) is absolutely fine and i sorted out the essential washer/s below the idler.
Oh ya new cone springs from Hanse to replace the motor grommets.
I did away with the mushroom grommets as the plinth is pretty solid (made of 3 slabs of beach Ikea tabletop)
So i put in long tapped screw watcha call em and bolted the chassis to the plinth - its abt 12 cm thick.

I solidified my rack to minimise resonances

The 3012 was rewired ( old crumbly 50 yr old wires were in a shocking state) with wire from Mogami.
The wand was made a little heavier, massier, by addition of a couple of copper rods ( done by a friend), and apprpriately damped.
I followed Marco's advice and sourced the AT Mg10 headshell, and what the hell, went for the mpingo spacer too from Korea.
and i got new Litz headshell wires
I got these new heavier brass main counterweight, the back piece that carries the L bit and the rider weight from an eBayer chap in Australia - more mass good, right ?
The bush at the back of the arm wand was replaced by something firm and RCA connectors at base of arm - made by him too
I replaced the cool looking L shaped but crappy skinny armboard with the big thick oversized Swiss one that i got refurbished.
The SME base plate and new CNC thick bronze plate were then bolted to the armboard ( no little woodscrews, no little grommets).
Arm now looks superb.

So in went the headshell for the fine adjustments etc and initial listening pitted it against a modded VPI classic with a Denon 301mk2
Sounded much much better than before.
After weeks of use and extended listening sessions I was not too happy with an irritating 'tizziness' of the highs .
I still preferred the 124/graham1.5/V15 III SAS
Damn !!
Rather despondent i replaced the 103R with a humble Nagaoka MP11 - now that sounded very nice - no more irritating tizziness.
I am pleased that all that effort wasnt all to waste (altho arm in that guise is prob too massy for anything but an SPU !)

For the record my 103R was bought new. I have never been happy with it and its never going on the arm again. good riddance.

I have learnt of the virtues of 2 old Ortofon cartridges that I had stashed away.
One is the SL15 that lurked inside dad's old S15T that lost its cantilever long ago. It has been sent to the monsieurs at Ana Mighty for a total rebuild.
The other is a SL15Q which had probably not seen much playing time.
It may have the best magnet, the best coils and what was the best diamond at the time.
I carefully put it in a lightweight SME headshell, transplanted the new Litz wires and mounted the Q.
All the heavy brassware had to go - we are back to standard SME weights
Tracking at 1.5g
Not used for best part of 40 yrs i was careful, starting with old LPs
Soon i was playing good vinyl. Quite simply it sounds wonderful.
Wide sounstage, nice tone and seems to be tracking ok on the big 3012
Quite a journey its been.
No more 103R for me and I am happily charmed by the SL15Q