Brimar

[southall-1998]

Are they back?

http://brimaruk.com/

S.

[DSJR]

I do hope so and that the tooling can be re-located and used once again - all you tube rollers PLEASE take note as I believe the Tech-Tube venture was de-financed just when it showed signs of taking off - using long lasting CRT tube technology in modern realisations of classic valves.

Thanks for sharing Shane - VERY much obliged..

[Spectral Morn]

Nice one - I have some old Brimar's nice valves.

[BTH K10A]

They were at the Audiojumble.

They obviously have ownership of the Brimar name and their valves are supplied in replica boxes but currently they are just rebadged valves which, to be fair, Brimar did just the same for a lot of their inventory back in the day. I asked where they were produced and was told they couldn't be specific as they were sourced from various countries. Again nothing that Brimar didn't do.

it seems the tooling they have found is ex Mullard Blackburn factory so we may have new manufacture Mullards branded as Brimar in the future.

It would be nice to see them return home to either Rochester or Footscray or then again should that be Blackburn. :scratch:

[Andy831]

Thanks for that Shane I have purchase a set of 4 12ax7 from them.

[Arkless Electronics]

Brimar as just as good as Mullard. As are Mazda etc. I always thought it bizarre that Mullard are so desirable just because they have the Mullard name! Mind you the whole "leading brand" desirability thing leaves me cold and perplexed generally... not just in hi fi!
I've always thought it would be great for valve manufacturers of today to make some new designs, intended to be better than the old stuff, rather than the nostalgia fest which seems to completely dominate the valve market....

[Jimbo]

Brimar as just as good as Mullard. As are Mazda etc. I always thought it bizarre that Mullard are so desirable just because they have the Mullard name! Mind you the whole "leading brand" desirability thing leaves me cold and perplexed generally... not just in hi fi!
I've always thought it would be great for valve manufacturers of today to make some new designs, intended to be better than the old stuff, rather than the nostalgia fest which seems to completely dominate the valve market....

Trouble is Jez's they would not probably be able legally to use the ingredients they used to use on the cathode coating,nor will there probably be any folk around who knew what the secret recipes were.

This was one of the reasons why many older NOS valves simply slaughter modern produced valves.

Now if they could come up with a really good modern alternative that would be interesting.:eyebrows:

[anthonyTD]

At the moment they just seem to be re-labeling chinese, and russian valves,
Brimar mostly re-branded british valves, or valves intended for the british market, ie; from Holland etc.
Good luck to them, if they can indeed set up the manufacturing process again in the UK. :)
A...

[anthonyTD]

I agree, i remember the trouble the original Tesla plant experienced trying to make Audio power valves again, after they had let go some key employee's who took the secrets with them.They had extreme problems with cathode to heater insulation issues, etc.

Trouble is Jez's they would not probably be able legally to use the ingredients they used to use on the cathode coating,nor will there probably be any folk around who knew what the secret recipes were.

This was one of the reasons why many older NOS valves simply slaughter modern produced valves.

Now if they could come up with a really good modern alternative that would be interesting.:eyebrows:

[Arkless Electronics]

Personally I don't agree that NOS is always best..... usually yes, and I doubt that modern valves have the longevity of NOS, certainly in the case of power valves they are nothing like as reliable as NOS. But in the case of lets say ECC83 I have found some modern ones to be just as good and sometimes better in terms of sound quality than NOS samples.... It seems to be quite arbitrary as to what will sound best in a given circuit! I have certainly found no differences of the "night and day" variety that some report and which makes a Mullard ECC83 worth £100 but a Sovtek one only £10... My own experiences of "tube rolling" (I hate that term!) has been of fairly subtle differences, assuming of course that the valves being replaced were not in fact worn! Now obviously one will find valves which have to be rejected as too noisy or microphonic for a phono stage for example, before it's SQ even comes into it. Even then it's not always NOS that wins out. Some Mullard ECC88's can be much noisier than modern ones for example.
I reckon there is a fair bit of brand snobbery comes into it..... like when Nike trainers are £200 but another less well known brand could sell exactly the same trainer and get only £30 a pair for them.... or that a genuine Gibson Les Paul from 1958 can be worth £100,000 but a better made and better sounding modern version may be £600... maybe a nostalgia for something too old for you to have "been there" at the time plays a big part?

:sofa:

Cue the folks claiming they changed one valve in their line stage and it made more difference than changing from Quad ESL57's to Klipschorns :D

I would have thought that with modern research facilities, materials science, CAD and CAM etc it should be possible to make new valves that wipe the floor with older types. A variety of cathode coatings were developed very carefully back in the day and companies sometimes had their secret recipes, but if they could do it from scratch back in 1926 they can easily do it now, even if they had to start again from basics! However as it's no longer the case that every radio, telly, hi fi, transmitter, radar, tape recorder etc etc is full of valves the demand from hi fi and guitar users is just nowhere near enough to make it commercially viable, so we get sometimes dubious copies of old technology.

[southall-1998]

Personally I don't agree that NOS is always best..... usually yes, and I doubt that modern valves have the longevity of NOS, certainly in the case of power valves they are nothing like as reliable as NOS. But in the case of lets say ECC83 I have found some modern ones to be just as good and sometimes better in terms of sound quality than NOS samples.... It seems to be quite arbitrary as to what will sound best in a given circuit! I have certainly found no differences of the "night and day" variety that some report and which makes a Mullard ECC83 worth £100 but a Sovtek one only £10... My own experiences of "tube rolling" (I hate that term!) has been of fairly subtle differences, assuming of course that the valves being replaced were not in fact worn! Now obviously one will find valves which have to be rejected as too noisy or microphonic for a phono stage for example, before it's SQ even comes into it. Even then it's not always NOS that wins out. Some Mullard ECC88's can be much noisier than modern ones for example.
I reckon there is a fair bit of brand snobbery comes into it..... like when Nike trainers are £200 but another less well known brand could sell exactly the same trainer and get only £30 a pair for them.... or that a genuine Gibson Les Paul from 1958 can be worth £100,000 but a better made and better sounding modern version may be £600... maybe a nostalgia for something too old for you to have "been there" at the time plays a big part?

:sofa:

Cue the folks claiming they changed one valve in their line stage and it made more difference than changing from Quad ESL57's to Klipschorns :D

I would have thought that with modern research facilities, materials science, CAD and CAM etc it should be possible to make new valves that wipe the floor with older types. A variety of cathode coatings were developed very carefully back in the day and companies sometimes had their secret recipes, but if they could do it from scratch back in 1926 they can easily do it now, even if they had to start again from basics! However as it's no longer the case that every radio, telly, hi fi, transmitter, radar, tape recorder etc etc is full of valves the demand from hi fi and guitar users is just nowhere near enough to make it commercially viable, so we get sometimes dubious copies of old technology.


Exactly Jez.

I remember mentioning JJ valves to a chap some few years back. The silly bastard just tilted his nose up sky high....and encouraged me to buy Mullards instead!

S.

[lurcher]

or that a genuine Gibson Les Paul from 1958 can be worth £100,000 but a better made and better sounding modern version may be £600

Apart from anything else, its a simple case of supply and demand. They will not be making any more original 59 sunbursts. So even if one did cost 100k, its never going to be worth less than that, so in these days of 0% interest its obvious why the going price will move in one direction,

But no, I doubt if £600 would get you close, 2k for a LP standard maybe, or 3k-10k for a custom shop.

[DSJR]

Tech-Tube were modern realisation of common valve types, but made using CRT technology - CRT's are basically a type of valve and by the end, were very efficient and long lasting I believe. I think I remember the staff left over when Mullard stopped making TV tubes began to put this latest thinking into practise until the financial plug was lulled from under them and the business sadly folded. I think Marco tried a couple of them with mixed results, but the thing is, the innards could have been adjusted and damped, or not, depending on tastes and ultimate performance...

[Barry]

Valve manufacture is as much art as it is science - and the 'art' resided in the experience and know-how of the assembly staff; much of which was passed on by 'osmosis' (the "sit next to Elsie" effect). When those people retired and left the company the knowledge, unless passed on, was lost.

It's the same with the pressing of vinyl today. Pressing plant equipment is no longer made, s0 new manufacturers have to use old and well worn old pressing plants. Not only that the new manufacturers do not have, in general, the "know-how" of former vinyl manufacturers such as the likes of Decca, EMI, Columbia etc. That is why, in my opinion, the quality of new LPs is often quite poor.

It is true that not everything made by Mullard was the best, but then that could be said for Telefunken, another former valve manufacturer whose products can command ridiculous prices today.; so much so that there are a lot of Chinese forgeries out there. Again in my opinion the best version of a valve design is usually produced by the company that originally designed it. In the case of the ECC88, that was Siemens and Halske, and of those the best were singled out for the German PTT and designated CCa. If you want a good Mullard ECC88, then it is best to track down the military version: the E88CC.



To provide another parallel, wine making involves even more art than science. There are many oenophiles who have a sufficiently sensitive palette to be able to distinguish and to prefer the output from one vineyard to that of its neighbour. Why does a bottle of Margeaux typically cost £200, whereas a bottle of the same year from a neighbouring vineyard cost £20?

To my mind 'tube rollers' are a bit like wine connoisseurs, and their discussion of the differences and subtleties similar.


To my mind

[anthonyTD]

Exactly! :)
Apart from anything else, its a simple case of supply and demand. They will not be making any more original 59 sunbursts. So even if one did cost 100k, its never going to be worth less than that, so in these days of 0% interest its obvious why the going price will move in one direction,

But no, I doubt if £600 would get you close, 2k for a LP standard maybe, or 3k-10k for a custom shop.

[southall-1998]

I've still got some old ''yellow label'' Mullard ECC83 tubes. How much are they fetching ''each'' nowadays?

S.

[Arkless Electronics]

I've still got some old ''yellow label'' Mullard ECC83 tubes. How much are they fetching ''each'' nowadays?

S.

I hear this new fangled google thingy is quite popular.....

Depends on provenance etc as all silliness like this does ie if it's got its original box it's worth loads more.. like a dinky car...

[Arkless Electronics]

Exactly Jez.

I remember mentioning JJ valves to a chap some few years back. The silly bastard just tilted his nose up sky high....and encouraged me to buy Mullards instead!

S.

That's one make I won't touch with a barge pole. On reliability not SQ grounds. As ever power valves is what I'm referring to.

[Arkless Electronics]

Valve manufacture is as much art as it is science - and the 'art' resided in the experience and know-how of the assembly staff; much of which was passed on by 'osmosis' (the "sit next to Elsie" effect). When those people retired and left the company the knowledge, unless passed on, was lost.

It's the same with the pressing of vinyl today. Pressing plant equipment is no longer made, s0 new manufacturers have to use old and well worn old pressing plants. Not only that the new manufacturers do not have, in general, the "know-how" of former vinyl manufacturers such as the likes of Decca, EMI, Columbia etc. That is why, in my opinion, the quality of new LPs is often quite poor.

It is true that not everything made by Mullard was the best, but then that could be said for Telefunken, another former valve manufacturer whose products can command ridiculous prices today.; so much so that there are a lot of Chinese forgeries out there. Again in my opinion the best version of a valve design is usually produced by the company that originally designed it. In the case of the ECC88, that was Siemens and Halske, and of those the best were singled out for the German PTT and designated CCa. If you want a good Mullard ECC88, then it is best to track down the military version: the E88CC.



To provide another parallel, wine making involves even more art than science. There are many oenophiles who have a sufficiently sensitive palette to be able to distinguish and to prefer the output from one vineyard to that of its neighbour. Why does a bottle of Margeaux typically cost £200, whereas a bottle of the same year from a neighbouring vineyard cost £20?

To my mind 'tube rollers' are a bit like wine connoisseurs, and their discussion of the differences and subtleties similar.


To my mind

If enough demand existed for new production plants to be set up using the latest techniques then they would be built by robot/CNC to much greater precision than even Mullard, Siemens etc ;)
The demo hybrid phono stage I have doing the rounds has Mullard E88CC-01 and Brimar ECC83. It is also designed in such a way that "tube rolling" is not permitted under any circumstances.

[lurcher]

The demo hybrid phono stage I have doing the rounds has Mullard E88CC-01 and Brimar ECC83. It is also designed in such a way that "tube rolling" is not permitted under any circumstances.

I am intrigued by this. How is the owner meant to replace the valves at the end of their useful life? and how does it deal with the change in characteristics as the valves are used?

[BTH K10A]

If a manufacturer is going to set up to build new valves then either they just compete in the current replacement market with the same old range of ECC, EL or KT valves or they could be adventurous and make a new version of the Telefunken EC 8020 or the STC 3A/167M at a reasonable price

[Arkless Electronics]

I am intrigued by this. How is the owner meant to replace the valves at the end of their useful life? and how does it deal with the change in characteristics as the valves are used?

It has to come back to base for valve replacement. The 88 will wear before the 83 and it's the latter that really can't be fiddled with by user. When ECC88 is replaced the ECC83 will be replaced at the same time. If the ECC83 is replaced by a random one (it doesn't matter what brand in theory) then THD can go from 0.007% to 0.3% or thereabouts so only selected ones can be fitted. Obviously fitting non "Arkless approved" ones won't damage it but it will result in changes to the sound for the worse... or better to some "pervs" who prefer it distorted, coloured and "characterful". There have been several companies over the years who insist on return to factory for valve replacement so nothing new here.... and only every 2-3+ years.

[lurcher]

It has to come back to base for valve replacement. The 88 will wear before the 83 and it's the latter that really can't be fiddled with by user. When ECC88 is replaced the ECC83 will be replaced at the same time. If the ECC83 is replaced by a random one (it doesn't matter what brand in theory) then THD can go from 0.007% to 0.3% or thereabouts so only selected ones can be fitted. Obviously fitting non "Arkless approved" ones won't damage it but it will result in changes to the sound for the worse... or better to some "pervs" who prefer it distorted, coloured and "characterful". There have been several companies over the years who insist on return to factory for valve replacement so nothing new here.... and only every 2-3+ years.

Ok, you do realise you have just typed a good reason for someone not to buy your product dont you?

And if its designed such that a change in valve can result in that much of a change just how (as I asked before) will it deal with the ageing of the valve over those 2-3 years?


There have been several companies over the years who insist on return to factory for valve replacement so nothing new here

Such as?

[Arkless Electronics]

I've dealt with it already in my previous post... and although I recall several cases of manufacturers requiring return to base for valve replacement I ain't wasting time googling it....

It is impossible to get the solid state rivalling measured performance (no negative feedback used!) of this phono stage without very careful selection of valves for each unit. If people consider needing to return it to base for valve replacement too much hassle then other phono stages are available. Simples. I will not compromise on this.

[anthonyTD]

Good point,
And one i restled with in the Soul series, in the end we designed a dedicated current source that locks the valve to what i want it to draw, this ensures the parameters' as far as current is concerned, cannot change as the valve ages. Also' it makes for easy user friendly changing of the valves.
Ok, you do realise you have just typed a good reason for someone not to buy your product dont you?

And if its designed such that a change in valve can result in that much of a change just how (as I asked before) will it deal with the ageing of the valve over those 2-3 years?



Such as?

[lurcher]

I've dealt with it already in my previous post...

if you have and I have failed to see it then I apologise. I am not talking about a "worn out" valve after 3 years, I am talking about the perfectly normal ageing of a valve over 6 months or so. If the circuit is assuming a perfect unchanging valve then its being (IMHO) overly optimistic. But as you say, its your design, your customers.

[lurcher]

Good point,
And one i restled with in the Soul series, in the end we designed a dedicated current source that locks the valve to what i want it to draw, this ensures the parameters' as far as current is concerned, cannot change as the valve ages. Also' it makes for easy user friendly changing of the valves.


Exactly, no matter how much you may want it to be so, you cant design with valves like you do with solid state. You have to take their characteristics into account and either make the design cope with or ignore their change in characteristics. Current and voltage regulation can help a lot with this, its why I like to design with a valve surrounded by solid state.

[Arkless Electronics]

Good point,
And one i restled with in the Soul series, in the end we designed a dedicated current source that locks the valve to what i want it to draw, this ensures the parameters' as far as current is concerned, cannot change as the valve ages. Also' it makes for easy user friendly changing of the valves.

I looked into many possibilities but put sound quality above convenience etc. As I say if having to return the unit to base once every few years for valve replacement is too much trouble then don't buy it folks..... Everyone who has heard it so far has said it's the best valve phono stage they have ever heard so hopefully there's method to my madness ;)

[Arkless Electronics]

if you have and I have failed to see it then I apologise. I am not talking about a "worn out" valve after 3 years, I am talking about the perfectly normal ageing of a valve over 6 months or so. If the circuit is assuming a perfect unchanging valve then its being (IMHO) overly optimistic. But as you say, its your design, your customers.

There will be some degradation with time obviously but the idea is that even after a few years use it will still be better than a randomly chosen valve. The ECC83 which is the critical one is used very gently and will change only slowly in characteristics. The ECC88 will need changing anyway by this time....

Valves changing characteristics with age issues is not limited to this design and is an issue with many/most valve amplifiers and valve phono stages!! I could name plenty with much bigger issues than mine in this area but they don't tell you that in their designs the RIAA EQ goes out as the valve ages! It's very common but usually ignored. I choose to mention it as I really don't want people fucking about with my amps and degrading the performance with "tube rolling". Mine does not change in RIAA accuracy as the valves age.

Most rivals have nowhere near the low distortion of mine and in fact the distortion of theirs will change with valve use as well... just in many cases it's from an already high figure to an even higher one, i.e it goes from 0.2% to 0.4%

As a hybrid amp it IS surrounded by solid state!

[anthonyTD]

Indeed, which is why we have never had it so good, as far as being able to use the best of modern technology, in combination with old, And take advantage of what each is best at, according to our own individual design philosophy.
Exactly, no matter how much you may want it to be so, you cant design with valves like you do with solid state. You have to take their characteristics into account and either make the design cope with or ignore their change in characteristics. Current and voltage regulation can help a lot with this, its why I like to design with a valve surrounded by solid state.

[anthonyTD]

Thats a fair point!

Valves changing characteristics with age issues is not limited to this design and is an issue with many/most valve amplifiers and valve phono stages!! I could name plenty with much bigger issues than mine in this area but they don't tell you that in their designs the RIAA EQ goes out as the valve ages! It's very common but usually ignored. I choose to mention it as I really don't want people fucking about with my amps and degrading the performance with "tube rolling". Mine does not change in RIAA accuracy as the valves age.

Most rivals have nowhere near the low distortion of mine and in fact the distortion of theirs will change with valve use as well... just in many cases it's from an already high figure to an even higher one, i.e it goes from 0.2% to 0.4%

[Arkless Electronics]

Come to think of it.... the reason that, in the specific case of valve phono stages, many do report big differences from "tube rolling" is VERY likely that in many designs (not mine :D) the RIAA accuracy is effected by the valves used and so in these situations there actually will be an audible change in frequency response etc.
It's nothing to do with the "quality" of the valves but everything to do with how well matched to the chosen RIAA values a particular valve happens to be ;) Note I say "a particular valve" and not a particular make etc

I choose to mention that I want my hybrid stages to come back to me for valve changing because I went to a lot of trouble to set state of the art figures for measured performance, without resorting to negative feedback, and if any old ECC83 is fitted it will revert to being the same as "the pack"....

[BTH K10A]

This may be some of the equipment the Brimar site refers to


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDvF89Bh27Y

[Firebottle]

and if any old ECC83 is fitted it will revert to being the same as "the pack"....

So don't use an ECC83, I don't rate them.

My phono design doesn't suffer any change of RIAA characteristic with age either, it's all about circuit implementation :)

[Arkless Electronics]

So don't use an ECC83, I don't rate them.

My phono design doesn't suffer any change of RIAA characteristic with age either, it's all about circuit implementation :)

I didn't rate them at one time but have found they are very good indeed in the right circuit.

As we are talking Brimar, if anyone's got a shed full of ECC807's they wish to sell me for peanuts.... :eyebrows:

[anthonyTD]

I have one new boxed, and its the only one i have ever come accross in 20 years, appart from when servicing the odd Rogers Cadet amp.
Just a low noise ECC83 realy, as is the 12AY7, but both very rare!
I didn't rate them at one time but have found they are very good indeed in the right circuit.

As we are talking Brimar, if anyone's got a shed full of ECC807's they wish to sell me for peanuts.... :eyebrows:

[TheMooN]

Come to think of it.... the reason that, in the specific case of valve phono stages, many do report big differences from "tube rolling" is VERY likely that in many designs (not mine :D) the RIAA accuracy is effected by the valves used and so in these situations there actually will be an audible change in frequency response etc.
It's nothing to do with the "quality" of the valves but everything to do with how well matched to the chosen RIAA values a particular valve happens to be ;) Note I say "a particular valve" and not a particular make etc

I choose to mention that I want my hybrid stages to come back to me for valve changing because I went to a lot of trouble to set state of the art figures for measured performance, without resorting to negative feedback, and if any old ECC83 is fitted it will revert to being the same as "the pack"....

Hmmmm, So If you are claiming that RIAA is not affected by the long term characteristic of the ECC83 in your circuit, what is the issue with a user substituting in a thoroughly tested, 100% emissions example, NOS or modern production valve :scratch:

[Arkless Electronics]

I have one new boxed, and its the only one i have ever come accross in 20 years, appart from when servicing the odd Rogers Cadet amp.
Just a low noise ECC83 realy, as is the 12AY7, but both very rare!

u of 150 as well!! I have 3 all unexpectedly from a Rogers HG88.... They are rare as rocking horse droppings and go for a fortune.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hmmmm, So If you are claiming that RIAA is not affected by the long term characteristic of the ECC83 in your circuit, what is the issue with a user substituting in a thoroughly tested, 100% emissions example, NOS or modern production valve :scratch:

Because I went to great lengths to get the performance as good as it is a and it relies on careful choice of the valve to get it as good as that. As I explained it gives state of the art distortion figures etc and although a user fitting a valve won't cause damage to the amp, it will result in the measured performance being an order of magnitude worse than it could be.... Distortion etc is maybe 10 x better than would be expected from a valve amp with no negative feedback and this is one of the reasons!

[Firebottle]

An honest question Jez - If it is that dependent on the valve characteristics then what is to prevent the performance deteriorating as the valve ages, as it will?

Any design that tries to make a valve work in the closest 'perfect' linear mode must surely be tolerant of a spread of valve characteristics, yes?

:)

[lurcher]

An honest question Jez - If it is that dependent on the valve characteristics then what is to prevent the performance deteriorating as the valve ages, as it will?

Any design that tries to make a valve work in the closest 'perfect' linear mode must surely be tolerant of a spread of valve characteristics, yes?

:)

I sometimes feel like the "can anyone actually hear me" character from the Fast Show on this forum. If you look at the last page you will see I have already asked this question and got a non answer. But its Jez's design, he can do what he wants with it.

[Arkless Electronics]

I've already answered this at least twice.

[TheMooN]

Because I went to great lengths to get the performance as good as it is a and it relies on careful choice of the valve to get it as good as that. As I explained it gives state of the art distortion figures etc and although a user fitting a valve won't cause damage to the amp, it will result in the measured performance being an order of magnitude worse than it could be.... Distortion etc is maybe 10 x better than would be expected from a valve amp with no negative feedback and this is one of the reasons!

Could you perhaps enlighten me/us/the confused as to the measurement peramiters of the ECC83 that you insist are vital to the design and which brand is of your choice?

[lurcher]

I've already answered this at least twice.

Well, the closest I can find to a answer is "There will be some degradation with time obviously but the idea is that even after a few years use it will still be better than a randomly chosen valve." That seems to me to make a huge assumption about how the valve characteristic will change over time. I know that if you take a handful of new EH ecc83's, they will measure a lot closer than a handful of used 83's. It also begs the question, if people are hearing the sample at its best, what will it sound like in 6 months, a year. Its a lot like the practice that some companies had of sending "blueprinted" versions of their product for review, they were not representative of what you bought from the shop.

I suspect you will feel I am having a go at your product Jez, I am not, I am just asking the obvious question that any engineer would ask given what you have said. I do honestly worry about it as a way of keeping customers. Eventually your customers will want to sell the phono stage, what if by then you have gone off and are doing something else, and don't have any of the magic valves, what about 10 years, 20 years, how is it going to keep going as a product?

I have had valve amps in to repair that have all sorts of clever tweeks in them that obviously seemed like a good idea at the time, but were undocumented, and when they fail, render the amp junk. Anyone who knows valves can repair a Radford, there is no magic, they will just keep going.

[Arkless Electronics]

Could you perhaps enlighten me/us/the confused as to the measurement peramiters of the ECC83 that you insist are vital to the design and which brand is of your choice?

No. I consider it proprietary.

[Jimbo]

Too much bolox on here about ECC83,s.

I got loads stuffed in my Croft and it sounds superb. :lol:

[Arkless Electronics]

Well, the closest I can find to a answer is "There will be some degradation with time obviously but the idea is that even after a few years use it will still be better than a randomly chosen valve." That seems to me to make a huge assumption about how the valve characteristic will change over time. I know that if you take a handful of new EH ecc83's, they will measure a lot closer than a handful of used 83's. It also begs the question, if people are hearing the sample at its best, what will it sound like in 6 months, a year. Its a lot like the practice that some companies had of sending "blueprinted" versions of their product for review, they were not representative of what you bought from the shop.

I suspect you will feel I am having a go at your product Jez, I am not, I am just asking the obvious question that any engineer would ask given what you have said. I do honestly worry about it as a way of keeping customers. Eventually your customers will want to sell the phono stage, what if by then you have gone off and are doing something else, and don't have any of the magic valves, what about 10 years, 20 years, how is it going to keep going as a product?

I have had valve amps in to repair that have all sorts of clever tweeks in them that obviously seemed like a good idea at the time, but were undocumented, and when they fail, render the amp junk. Anyone who knows valves can repair a Radford, there is no magic, they will just keep going.

I'll answer this yet again then.... ALL VALVE AMPS DEGRADE WITH TIME AS THE VALVES WEAR. Mine is no different. Worst case is that it will end up with similar performance to other valve amps rather than the 0.007% or so THD it leaves me with, lets say it rises to 0.2%.... but over a few years gradually. I thought I'd made this clear earlier in the thread.... There is no free lunch in engineering and all things are compromises, in this case in order to get unparalleled performance the price to pay is that maintenance requirements are a bit stricter than the norm. One could take the view that many consider measured performance unimportant anyway and won't hear the difference between 0.007% and 0.2% as 0.2% is still inaudible when low order.... It's a non issue... wish I hadn't mentioned it!

[lurcher]

Or you could do (as you say you have with respect to RIAA accuracy and valve life) design so that the amp performance will be generally unaffected by the change in valve characteristics as they age, that means what you get now, you get in two years time, it also means that the owner can chose to use different valves with confidence. I would think that way everyone wins.

[Jimbo]

Or you could do (as you say you have with respect to RIAA accuracy and valve life) design so that the amp performance will be generally unaffected by the change in valve characteristics as they age, that means what you get now, you get in two years time, it also means that the owner can chose to use different valves with confidence. I would think that way everyone wins.

That sounds sensible Nick and indeed my Croft preamp has not changed much in the last 2 years with the valves I have installed.

[Gazjam]

Exactly, no matter how much you may want it to be so, you cant design with valves like you do with solid state. You have to take their characteristics into account and either make the design cope with or ignore their change in characteristics. Current and voltage regulation can help a lot with this, its why I like to design with a valve surrounded by solid state.

Can vouch for this approach working....rather well. :)

[TheMooN]

No. I consider it proprietary.

Oh well! I would consider then that any high quality NOS 83 such as an Telefunken or M8137 measuring to specification or better, would enable your phono to perform quite optimally.

[Arkless Electronics]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to get this level of performance, without negative feedback, and also have no change as valves age. I'm endeavouring to build thoroughbreds not also rans :eyebrows:
If you buy a Ferrari for it's performance you accept that service intervals will be rather shorter than those of a Vectra and that it's going to go through tyres a lot quicker!
As I keep saying again and again all valve amps deteriorate with ageing valves. The only difference here is that it starts off much better than most other valve amps and degrades to a point where it's similar to other valve amps. I can adjust it FOC to keep it at optimum performance if customers wish but they would have to pay the P&P. It's quite possible of course that when the valves have degraded to a point where measured performance is about average for a valve phono stage the sound stays the same as it's still only 0.2% distortion and not audible.....

[Arkless Electronics]

Oh well! I would consider then that any high quality NOS 83 such as an Telefunken or M8137 measuring to specification or better, would enable your phono to perform quite optimally.

'fraid you are totally wrong. It has nothing to do with the make of valve.

[Arkless Electronics]

Can vouch for this approach working....rather well. :)

Same here which is why I use this approach myself! There is vastly more solid state electronics than valve in this unit but valves do nearly all the actual amplification.

[anthonyTD]

It would be daft not to take advantage of what we have available, as far as components and devices today, I realised that back in the early 2000's when i was proto-typing the Valve circuitry, that was to become the Soul amps, by using all semi-conductor circuitry to control all aspects of the valve, the performance level went up sevral notches from what was already a good single ended design. But its not just a case of using off the shelf components, to get the best out of any circuit, you need to do a lot of R&D to get to the performance level worthy of true HI End, so as far as what Jez has acheived with this design, i think it speaks volumes of the length's he has gone through to acheive the figures he has. :)
Same here which is why I use this approach myself! There is vastly more solid state electronics than valve in this unit but valves do nearly all the actual amplification.

[Arkless Electronics]

Thanks Anthony :) A lot of research went into it yes!

[Firebottle]

I sometimes feel like the "can anyone actually hear me" character from the Fast Show on this forum.

Not with me you're not Nick :). I asked the question again because of no specific answer.

[anthonyTD]

+1 :) But I know the feeling...
Not with me you're not Nick :).

[TheMooN]

'fraid you are totally wrong. It has nothing to do with the make of valve.

I was merely using the two valves that I mentioned, particularly M8137, as an example of the type of valve, when measuring to full specification and NOS, that I would expect to perform more than adequately sonically and by measurement.

[Arkless Electronics]

I was merely using the two valves that I mentioned, particularly M8137, as an example of the type of valve, when measuring to full specification and NOS, that I would expect to perform more than adequately sonically and by measurement.

I'll attempt to explain further. When you read a data sheet for a valve the characteristics seen will be for a particular "bogie" unit, a "golden sample" if you like, not particularly one which is better than others but one which meets the specs bang on. In practice certain characteristics will be within a few percent of this and other characteristics may be +/- say 30% of the data sheet values for a new valve. Even for high quality valves from the same manufacturer there will be this spread of characteristics. If a valve is chosen at random, or even chosen for its reputation as in a M8137, there is every possibility that it may be say +25% on a particular important characteristic compared to the sample I originally choose and fitted. Hence unless you have access to a distortion analyser and ultra low distortion test oscillator, and have the knowledge to use them, there is no guarantee that the valve you fit yourself will give the low distortion figures I intended for this design ;)

On the other hand, if one were to say that even if a random sample resulted in say 0.05% THD rather than the 0.007% or so achievable, then this is still well below audibility and so it may well indeed "perform more than adequately sonically and by measurement". You may be unlucky and up with say 0.5% though. Now many bits of hi fi gear, especially valved, manage to get great reviews etc with even more than 0.5% distortion so even this may be a moot point.... it could even add some false warmth to the sound that some like! It seems a shame though, after I went to such lengths to design a unit with such good specs, transparency and neutrality, to potentially compromise it in this way...

[Gazjam]

Bringing it to Nebo Jez?

[Arkless Electronics]

Bringing it to Nebo Jez?

I brought it to the last one but it only had a few minutes use.... Some JBL's it was used with couldn't handle its flat to virtually DC bass combined with a probably under damped subsonic resonance from the front end in use and looked about to disembowel themselves :eek: It's presently travelling from Scotland to Yorkshire via London... which is another story....

[spendorman]

I thought that the name Brimar might have something to to do with Marconi, Bri and Mar, the Mar being short for Marconi, but according to the interweb, apparently not. It stands for something else. Anyone else found out what?

Now how about the brand name Pinnacle, I think that just re-branded valves. I have several Pinnacle GZ34,s.

[BTH K10A]

BRItish Made, American Ratings was set up by STC in the mid 30's to manufacture American type valves.

[anthonyTD]

Pinnacle seemed to buy up valves from most manufacturers at the time, and re-brand them, I have seen, and tested lots of diffrent types branded up as Pinnacle over the years, and i have to say, most are way out of spec, or just test wrong, which seems to sugest that they purchased seconds, or stock that wasnt chosen to be sold under the original brand for one reason or another, not all re-branded valves were bad though, Zaerix was another well known re-brander, Bentley another, etc,etc.
I thought that the name Brimar might have something to to do with Marconi, Bri and Mar, the Mar being short for Marconi, but according to the interweb, apparently not. It stands for something else. Anyone else found out what?

Now how about the brand name Pinnacle, I think that just re-branded valves. I have several Pinnacle GZ34,s.

[spendorman]

Pinnacle seemed to buy up valves from most manufacturers at the time, and re-brand them, I have seen, and tested lots of diffrent types branded up as Pinnacle over the years, and i have to say, most are way out of spec, or just test wrong, which seems to sugest that they purchased seconds, or stock that wasnt chosen to be sold under the original brand for one reason or another, not all re-branded valves were bad though, Zaerix was another well known re-brander, Bentley another, etc,etc.


Yes, bought Zaerix and Bentley new in the day. From memory, Bentley Acoustics was the name. Z&I Aero Industries?

[TheMooN]

I'll attempt to explain further. When you read a data sheet for a valve the characteristics seen will be for a particular "bogie" unit, a "golden sample" if you like, not particularly one which is better than others but one which meets the specs bang on. In practice certain characteristics will be within a few percent of this and other characteristics may be +/- say 30% of the data sheet values for a new valve. Even for high quality valves from the same manufacturer there will be this spread of characteristics. If a valve is chosen at random, or even chosen for its reputation as in a M8137, there is every possibility that it may be say +25% on a particular important characteristic compared to the sample I originally choose and fitted. Hence unless you have access to a distortion analyser and ultra low distortion test oscillator, and have the knowledge to use them, there is no guarantee that the valve you fit yourself will give the low distortion figures I intended for this design ;)

On the other hand, if one were to say that even if a random sample resulted in say 0.05% THD rather than the 0.007% or so achievable, then this is still well below audibility and so it may well indeed "perform more than adequately sonically and by measurement". You may be unlucky and up with say 0.5% though. Now many bits of hi fi gear, especially valved, manage to get great reviews etc with even more than 0.5% distortion so even this may be a moot point.... it could even add some false warmth to the sound that some like! It seems a shame though, after I went to such lengths to design a unit with such good specs, transparency and neutrality, to potentially compromise it in this way...

Thank you for crafted responce AE, perhaps I had not made myself clear, in that I am not advocating the use of any old random purchase off of eBay. I deliberately did advocate the M8137 as one particular valve 'already' golden factory sampled at production testing, such an NOS valve, currently measuring on spec or better would be, given the non critical to RIAA of the ECC83 in your Unit, an exceedingly unlikely cause of performance degradation.

I quite concede that in terms of having a unit re-set to your exacting standards, that a return to base would be best practice, however I would also consider that for those of your customers who may be unwilling to do so, that the type of valve I am advocating 'should' provide a solution measuring below the standard threshold of audibility.

In in the end, as Lurcher commented earlier, it is your product and therefore are at liberty to advocate whatever terms of use and service you deem fit.

[anthonyTD]

Military Grade valves ie; CV4004/M8137 etc are made to very tight tolerances, from experience, if i had ten on the bench for testing, i would say at least 7 or 8 would measure spot on with each other as far as each triode half, and over-all current draw, and MA/V.
As for designing with these valves to start with, well, i am sure if Jez had a decent stock of them, he probably would, however, we have to be realistic, and accept that we have to design around what we have available from current production stock these days, and obviously, Jez has chosen a paticular characteristic of certain tested valves, that suits his design criteria, he has already fully explained that if one was to substitute a good know tested valve for what he has fitted, it wouldnt be the end of the world as far as performance wise.
Unless anyone has a direct comment regarding what i have said here, then I sugest we leave it there now, and get back to the topic.:)

[Arkless Electronics]

Thank you for crafted responce AE, perhaps I had not made myself clear, in that I am not advocating the use of any old random purchase off of eBay. I deliberately did advocate the M8137 as one particular valve 'already' golden factory sampled at production testing, such an NOS valve, currently measuring on spec or better would be, given the non critical to RIAA of the ECC83 in your Unit, an exceedingly unlikely cause of performance degradation.

I quite concede that in terms of having a unit re-set to your exacting standards, that a return to base would be best practice, however I would also consider that for those of your customers who may be unwilling to do so, that the type of valve I am advocating 'should' provide a solution measuring below the standard threshold of audibility.

In in the end, as Lurcher commented earlier, it is your product and therefore are at liberty to advocate whatever terms of use and service you deem fit.

It seems that no matter how well I explain this you don't get it.... I give up :rolleyes:

[Arkless Electronics]

Pinnacle, Edicron etc sometimes even rebranded Mullard... However most of their output was so bad that in the case of anything other than small signal valves they are unusable! MANY times I have fitted Edicron or Pinnacle EL84 or GZ34 and they have blown in a firework display inside the glass within 10 minutes or so. THAT bad yes!

[anthonyTD]

Aye, i know what you mean!
I was just looking through the diffrent brands i have in the racks in my workshop, another brand that seemed to just be a re-brander, 6202, Red and black boxes,Anyone else come accross these ? Colomor is another.
Pinnacle, Edicron etc sometimes even rebranded Mullard... However most of their output was so bad that in the case of anything other than small signal valves they are unusable! MANY times I have fitted Edicron or Pinnacle EL84 or GZ34 and they have blown in a firework display inside the glass within 10 minutes or so. THAT bad yes!