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steve dixon
03-11-2009, 09:34
apoligies if this has been posted before, but has anybody compared the caimen to the dac magic, and v dac. i've seen the review in hifi world which surprise surprise picked a £1000 dac as the winner, not really fair i thought, after all you wouldn't expect a mini to compare with a ferrari would you. afterall ones 'school run' and the others a red blooded chick magnet, i know what i'd choose!!!!!

so in an attempt to inject a bit of realism, has anyone heard used compared, the caimen to the cambridge dac magic and the v dac. as you can probably guess i'm in the market for a new dac. at the moment the beresford caimen is out of stock so i can wait a while, is there any real quality differential or is it a case of 'brown' or 'red' sauce? if you get me.
cheers
steve

The Vinyl Adventure
03-11-2009, 10:16
from the range of reviews available i would say its personal taste.. there was a review including some expensive kit and a 7520 where the vdac came out on top. i personally would touch musical fidelity with a barge pole... but thats just me. i have a caimen and 7520 and am happy with them both!
in terms of value for money i think the caiman wins as i recon if it was availabe through shops it would be more like £500.. thats the advantage of buying of the guy who makes the things!

Themis
03-11-2009, 10:21
has anyone heard used compared, the caimen to the cambridge dac magic and the v dac
I did compare these, but not simultaneously.
In short : Caiman (without the PSU)>DacMagic>V-dac.
The Beresford dac is very neutral while the v-dac is more "soft and forgiving". The DacMagic is between the two.

Which was the £1000 dac that was preferred to the Caiman by this review ?

The Vinyl Adventure
03-11-2009, 10:32
As a side note, I'm not sure the ferrari/mini analogy is acurate. These high end dacs, in my view, are more expesive because of a numer of reasons that aren't extra sound quality!
Stan doesn't pay for advertising, nor does he have the large overheads of the larger companies. That should also be taken into account!
(hope you don't mind me fighting your corner stan)
I have a linn majik ds (£1800) .. Ok it streams the music too, but in terms of sound quality it's no better than the caiman! Slightly different (only very slightly) but no better!

StanleyB
03-11-2009, 11:02
Stan doesn't pay for advertising, nor does he have the large overheads of the larger companies. That should also be taken into account!
And that is actually a disadvantage. Because I am able to make cost cutting measures that I pass on to customers, my lowish price is in fact a turn off for most. A more realistic price for he Caiman might have been £399, based on the fact that it is largely hand made and hand assembled compared to the TC-7520. We can only make three to five a day, which is why it it frequently out of stock.

I am not too bothered if anyone prefers to buy a more readily available DAC from a different company. I won't ramp up my production speed just to make more sales. Quality is paramount. But my price will continue to be a fair reflection of true manufacturing cost plus a small profit. Other companies have at least 20 times my overhead, so they are forced to make their products cheaper and sell in larger quantities just so they can make the same net margins as me.

steve dixon
03-11-2009, 12:30
so the caimen compares favorably with a linn, no brainer then really is it??
the £1000 dac was the benchmark, and that really brings me to my dilemma, can a £200 dac be a match for a £1000 dac, well if it can be the equal of a linn then maybe so.
thanks for the reply's i'm now assured i'm heading in the right direction when i buy a caimen, nothing personal stan, just asking as you know i already have a 7510 so i know a little about what people are saying, i probably just needed the reassurance.
cheers
steve

Themis
03-11-2009, 13:49
the £1000 dac was the benchmark, and that really brings me to my dilemma, can a £200 dac be a match for a £1000 dac,
I believe as Hamish says, the price difference is not a quality difference here. It's something else.
If it had been something like the NorthstarMK2 or a high-end Lavry, I wouldn't argue, but a Benchmark... no way.

steve dixon
03-11-2009, 14:05
what exactly are you saying the benchmark is not match for the caimen or have i mis-understood?

and are the lavry and northstar a cut above?
thanks
steve

Themis
03-11-2009, 14:13
what exactly are you saying the benchmark is not match for the caimen or have i mis-understood?
You didn't misunderstand : when I'm in a good mood (and full of generosity), I find that they are -grossly- of the same quality. ;)
But their price doesn't depend on my mood. :eyebrows:

and are the lavry and northstar a cut above?
thanks
steve
Do you know the price of a DA-2002 ? :lol:

REM
03-11-2009, 14:36
..... after all you wouldn't expect a mini to compare with a ferrari would you. afterall ones 'school run' and the others a red blooded chick magnet, i know what i'd choose!!!!!


steve

I assume you refer to the Ferrari as the 'chick magnet', may one ascertain the last time you had occasion to talk to any 'chicks' regarding their motoring preferences? Most of the 'chicks' in my acquaintance would look at a Ferrari owner and the first thing that would spring to their mind would be 'big wallet/little prick'.
However, if one were to choose to drive say something like a Cooper S, all black with privacy glass, large alloys, anthracite interior, etc., then one might find one's self the object of many an admiring glance at the lights and so on from 'chicks', 'hot babes', 'milfs', the list goes on and on.

Cheers:smoking:

Stratmangler
03-11-2009, 14:41
However, if one were to choose to drive say something like a Cooper S, all black with privacy glass, large alloys, anthracite interior, etc., then one might find one's self the object of many an admiring glance at the lights and so on from 'chicks', 'hot babes', 'milfs', the list goes on and on.

Cheers:smoking:

You'd also be getting lots of attention from plod, especially about the privacy glass.

The flash car/little prick analogy is well known.

Me, I have a bus pass:eyebrows:

Chris;)

chrism
03-11-2009, 14:49
So, if I trade in my beloved Caiman in for a "Lavry" will I be able to take my pick of the birds fighting over me? If so I don't think that poor old Stan will be able to compete with this one.

Regards

Chris

StanleyB
03-11-2009, 16:04
So, if I trade in my beloved Caiman in for a "Lavry" will I be able to take my pick of the birds fighting over me? If so I don't think that poor old Stan will be able to compete with this one.
I can't figure out what you mean:scratch:.

chrism
03-11-2009, 16:11
I assume you refer to the Ferrari as the 'chick magnet', may one ascertain the last time you had occasion to talk to any 'chicks' regarding their motoring preferences? Most of the 'chicks' in my acquaintance would look at a Ferrari owner and the first thing that would spring to their mind would be 'big wallet/little prick'.
However, if one were to choose to drive say something like a Cooper S, all black with privacy glass, large alloys, anthracite interior, etc., then one might find one's self the object of many an admiring glance at the lights and so on from 'chicks', 'hot babes', 'milfs', the list goes on and on.

Cheers:smoking:

Stan,

Your DAC is tops but apparently not a chick magnet! Sorry to confuse.

Regards

Chris

StanleyB
03-11-2009, 16:35
It might come as a surprise to you, but I have had quite a few female customers:).

REM
03-11-2009, 16:48
You'd also be getting lots of attention from plod, especially about the privacy glass.

The flash car/little prick analogy is well known.

Me, I have a bus pass:eyebrows:

Chris;)

The privacy glass is a factory option, rears only, the car does not look flash, it does look classy (in a Mini way), you were merely underlining my point;).

Cheers

Themis
03-11-2009, 16:56
Sooooo, if I understood properly:

Stan should propose a rear glass option for the Caiman... for the sake of our sexual equilibrium. :lol:

chrism
03-11-2009, 17:00
It might come as a surprise to you, but I have had quite a few female customers:).

Nice one Mr B! :eyebrows:

Regards

Chris

DSJR
03-11-2009, 21:10
Mini's are the new golf GTI - Estate Agents, senior director's wives and flash gits car :D My ex-Beoboss has one I believe...

DSJR
03-11-2009, 21:12
Now, if Stan makes 3 to 5 per day and the finished result sells for £250??? then how come a fancy cartridge made with fairly cheap parts (!!,,??) in the same quantity sells for thousands? :scratch:

The Grand Wazoo
04-11-2009, 00:22
For the same reason a dog will lick it's balls - because it can.

Stan could too if he wanted. Sell for more that is - I can't vouch for his double jointed prowess.

sburrell
04-11-2009, 03:04
Hi Steve,

I actually did a side-by-side between the Beresford TC-7510 Mk6/latest and the V-DAC, and posted a quite comprehensive review here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3907) on The Art of Sound forums.
In brief, though: it's definitely not a "case of 'brown' or 'red' sauce". The Beresford quiet clearly trumped the V-DAC, most especially in simple quantity of detail. This was the opinion of the member of staff in the store where I did the side-by-side too.

PS: apologies, I quite definitely "pilot posted" this (is that the term for it, where you don't read all the replies?).

StanleyB
04-11-2009, 06:25
Now, if Stan makes 3 to 5 per day and the finished result sells for £250??? then how come a fancy cartridge made with fairly cheap parts (!!,,??) in the same quantity sells for thousands?
Too many middlemen and get rich quick merchants. Remember the Pioneer vs Goldmund saga?

Chippy_boy
04-11-2009, 09:00
what exactly are you saying the benchmark is not match for the caimen or have i mis-understood?

I didn't understand him either. And his "clarification" left me none the wiser.

I have both the Caiman and the Benchmark DAC1 HDR and very good though the Caiman is, the Benchmark is clearly superior. Which you would really hope it would be, considering the huge price difference! It's really not a fair comparison. The Benchmark is clearer, has a more open spacious soundstage and seems just cleaner sounding. The Caiman is slow and muddled by comparison.

The differences are not enormous, but they are quite apparent. I have never been able to discern one interconnect from another for example, but I have no problem picking out the Benchmark from the Caiman.

Please don't misunderstand - I think the Caiman is very very good. It punches way above its weight. But there are limits as to how much you can do for £200 retail and the levels attained by the Benchmark are out of reach imho.

EDIT: Something I just thought of though, is it may well depend on the quality of your source. My source (an Apple TV) is pretty crappy compared to any decent transport. First it only has optical output and I have no idea how jittery that is. The improved sound of the Benchmark may be down to its undoubted superior ability to deal with jittery input signals. Maybe the Caiman would be more competitive if both were fed via coax from a decent transport. Just a thought.

Themis
04-11-2009, 09:27
I didn't understand him either. And his "clarification" left me none the wiser.
It is very simple.
I've tested two Benchmark models : the DAC1 and the DAC1 usb.
They were both (at their best) as neutral as the Caiman. But most of the time, they were not.

I hope this is clearer. ;)

Now, if you think that the Benchmark HDR is better than the DAC1... well, why not ? :eyebrows:
Benchmark's comparison chart says not much about any differences, though... http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/system1/digital-analog-converter/dac1-comparison

Peter Galbavy
04-11-2009, 10:05
And that is actually a disadvantage. Because I am able to make cost cutting measures that I pass on to customers, my lowish price is in fact a turn off for most.

Aye. See also the very very excellent BK Electronics Monolith sub. At about £400 it wipes the floor of most subs at least twice the price - according to most neutral reviewers - but of course gets the same "can't be good when it's that cheap" view of the masses.

Chippy_boy
06-11-2009, 09:06
It is very simple.
I've tested two Benchmark models : the DAC1 and the DAC1 usb.
They were both (at their best) as neutral as the Caiman. But most of the time, they were not.

I hope this is clearer. ;)

Now, if you think that the Benchmark HDR is better than the DAC1... well, why not ?

No, I don't. The HDR is sonically identical to the DAC1 and DAC1 USB I am sure.

If you prefer the Caiman then great, but personally I can't share that view.

Themis
06-11-2009, 09:25
No problemo, Chippy. I find it equally enriching to have different views.

The only thing which is a pity, is that we don't live nearer : it would have been even better to exchange more precise opinions on specific listening material.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-11-2009, 09:30
I'd be interested to hear more about such comparisons!

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 09:36
No, I don't. The HDR is sonically identical to the DAC1 and DAC1 USB I am sure.

They do not. The DAC1 and TC-7520 use the NE5532, whilst the Caiman and HDR us ethe LM4562NA. Those two opamps sound completely different in their respective environment.
http://www.beresford.me/images/shootout.jpg

Marco
06-11-2009, 09:58
Hi Chippy,


I have both the Caiman and the Benchmark DAC1 HDR and very good though the Caiman is, the Benchmark is clearly superior. Which you would really hope it would be, considering the huge price difference!


I'm afraid that these days with hi-fi equipment one cannot reliably presume that because something is much more expensive it is therefore better.

Like Stan said before, quite correctly, there are:


Too many middlemen and get rich quick merchants.


...and this often accounts for differences in price between equipment, rather than the use of superior quality components in a more expensive item. In effect, one isn't always paying for out-and-out sound quality differences when buying more expensive equipment, but rather the funding of the above 'slurpers'.

My system contains items which outperform equipment at many times its price, so don't make the mistake of believing that something that's more expensive is bound to be better - it often isn't the case!

If the Caiman were made by a 'high-end', well-known, commercial manufacturer (pick any you like), how much do you think it would retail for?

A heck of a lot more than Stan sells it for, I can assure you! :)

Marco.

P.S The other thing I would add is have you heard the Caiman with its upgraded PSU? I suspect that would more than give the Benchmark a run for its money, and still at lower cost ;)

Themis
06-11-2009, 10:01
They do not. The DAC1 and TC-7520 use the NE5532, whilst the Caiman and HDR us ethe LM4562NA. Those two opamps sound completely different in their respective environment.

In this case, my opinion about the DAC1USB is probably not valid for the HDR. I somehow prefer to be wrong, as the HDR price tag is rather high.

Themis
06-11-2009, 10:06
If the Caiman were made by a 'high-end', well-known, commercial manufacturer (pick any you like), how much do you think it would retail for? About three times the price. And with a better (bigger) case and an internal (toroidal and preferably heavy) power supply, it should get to four or five times its actual price. ;)
But in such a case, it would sound MUCH better ! :eyebrows:

Marco
06-11-2009, 10:14
About three times the price...


Exactly! And how much does the Caiman sell for - £250?

In that case, it needs to be judged as a £750 DAC, not as a £250 one! ;)

Also, how much is the Benchmark DAC 1 HDR, and the Caiman plus its upgraded PSU?

As an aside, I've never really liked the Benchmark DAC. It's a touch 'cold and clinical' sounding, and rather 'matter-of-fact', musically, for my taste.

Marco.

Themis
06-11-2009, 10:28
Also, how much is the Benchmark DAC 1 HDR, and the Caiman plus its upgraded PSU?
The HDR costs about £1450 shipping and taxes included. Although the dollar/pound conversion is a bit tricky.
The Caiman is at about £250.
Clearly two different products.

Marco
06-11-2009, 10:30
Thanks, Dimitri. And how much is the Caiman PSU?

Marco.

Themis
06-11-2009, 10:33
I can't say, I was an early adopter, my price is probably not accurate. The price without the PSU is at 232£ shipped/taxed.
Stan could say more about the PSU price. ANd, btw, the Caiman was already excellent without the new PSU.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-11-2009, 10:41
i dont see why something that is £1450 and somthing that is £250 are two clearly different products
th fact that one has different set of outputs and inputs, a remote, a posh case and possibly the sound it produces makes it a clearly different product... not the price! i agree with marco... judging equipment by price is a mugs game

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 10:46
It reminds me of the TC-760LC phono preamp I used to sell at £45 plus delivery. I stopped selling it after seeing it back on sale with a different brand name and model number for..... wait for it.... £180! It is still on sale at that price, and a good 4x my original price.

I am not saying that the Caiman is the best I can do. It is a modified TC-7520 after all. But I take all comments into consideration. That's the only way I can improve the product, without affecting the retail price too much.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-11-2009, 10:46
i think it was rob (puffin) who was telling me the hisory of the gainclone chip
the first company that used it in a high end bit of kit charged a fortune for it... then people worked out it could be made for £50 with ease to sound as good.... ....
the company that was selling them for a lot of money had to pay all thier overheads etc but had obviously added on a fair amount of ££ just to make it look like something more special! what about that grado headphone amp?? its a bloody cmoy ... i made a cmoy for £20!! grado sell them for £300!! im not saying its not a good amp.. and it does sound good with grados! aparently the opamp in it is even cheaper than the one in mine!! ££££ does not = quality!

Themis
06-11-2009, 10:47
i dont see why something that is £1450 and somthing that is £250 are two clearly different products
I mean, they are [positioned (in the market) as] two different products. :eyebrows:

They don't target the same buyers.

The Vinyl Adventure
06-11-2009, 10:51
I mean, they are [positioned (in the market) as] two different products. :eyebrows:

They don't target the same buyers.



...yeah! i completely agree with that!

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 11:56
I sold a Caiman to a guy from Holland in August, who had jumped on Ryan Air and taken a National Express coach from Stanstead to Golders Green, and then an 83 bus from there to my house. It turned out that the price difference between the DacMagic and Caiman in Holland made the trip worthwhile, even though those two DACs sell for about the same in the UK... Go figure:scratch:.

Marco
06-11-2009, 12:31
I completely agree with all recent comments here. However, what's the big secret about the cost of the Caiman PSU? :confused:

I, for one, would like to know for reference...

Stanley, please enlighten me :)

Marco.

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 12:40
However, what's the big secret about the cost of the Caiman PSU? :confused:
Maybe I sell it too cheap?

Marco
06-11-2009, 12:43
What is "too cheap"? Tell us the price for gawds sake man!

Or is it meant to be shrouded in mystery? ;)

Marco.

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 12:48
I am as confused as you are. The Caiman power supply is not for sale. It only ships with the Caiman DAC.

Marco
06-11-2009, 13:06
I thought that the Caiman DAC was designed as a separate item before the PSU was introduced?

Therefore they must have two separate costs attached to them. Or do you give the PSU away for free to existing Caiman owners? I suspect not.

Therefore, what I'm asking, Stan, is how much would an existing Caiman user (someone who bought one of the original ones) pay for the separate Caiman PSU (currently being discussed in the D.I.Y room) if they wanted to upgrade their DAC?

I'm not sure why you're being so evasive :scratch:

Marco.

Alex_UK
06-11-2009, 13:13
I sold a Caiman to a guy from Holland in August, who had jumped on Ryan Air and taken a National Express coach from Stanstead to Golders Green, and then an 83 bus from there to my house. It turned out that the price difference between the DacMagic and Caiman in Holland made the trip worthwhile, even though those two DACs sell for about the same in the UK... Go figure:scratch:.

That's some effort to avoid problems from the postal strike! He must have wanted his Caiman very much!

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 14:22
I thought that the Caiman DAC was designed as a separate item before the PSU was introduced?
The Caiman power supply did not meet EU approvals, and I could not obtain them in time in order to launch both DAC and PSU at the same time. So I went ahead and sold the DAC first, later followed by the DAC and PSU.


Therefore they must have two separate costs attached to them. Or do you give the PSU away for free to existing Caiman owners? I suspect not.
In order to submit samples of the PSU for VDU and CE approval, we had to make a quantity and the test house could then pick 5 or more at random for approval testing. After they had finished and certified the PSU I sold some of the remaining stock with a batch of DACs, 50 pieces at a nominal figure of £9.99 plus shipping plus VAT, and kept the rest for the next batch of Caiman DACs. The tooling up, mold making etc., and manufacturing of the first 200 pieces plus approval certification came to more than U$10K. That works out at around U$50 a piece FOB Taiwan. If the PSU had failed the tests, I would be looking at spending another load of $$$. Luckily I can now amortize that cost over a production run.


Therefore, what I'm asking, Stan, is how much would an existing Caiman user (someone who bought one of the original ones) pay for the separate Caiman PSU (currently being discussed in the D.I.Y room) if they wanted to upgrade their DAC? No idea. I haven't got newly manufactured stock of the PSU on its own and won't know the true cost of manufacturing till the 2nd production run has been completed at the end of the month. Whatever stock I do have is solely for inclusion with a Caiman.


I'm not sure why you're being so evasive.
I have learned from my mistakes. Some people have been expanding what I wrote into what they assume. So now I am more careful and stay away from
that sort of hassle.
Not so long ago you even ended up sending me a PM as a result from a PM sent to you by someone else to question me about a message on the forum that appears to have been by me. Whilst you even phoned me to apologize about the misunderstanding, the instigator of the 'cut & paste' and the person who complained to you never showed such decency towards me. Since then I have used extreme caution where possible with regards to anything I write on AoS that has to do with my products. I never know where it could end up being used with 'my name' being attached to it.

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 14:27
That's some effort to avoid problems from the postal strike! He must have wanted his Caiman very much!
I hardly ask these days. I have had some weird requests, including delivery to some weird addresses that even the postman had to look up.

Marco
06-11-2009, 14:41
Hi Stan,

Thanks for clearing up the PSU pricing thing - much appreciated, as it was a bit of a grey area that needed clearing up :)


I have learned from my mistakes. Some people have been expanding what I wrote into what they assume. So now I am more careful and stay away from
that sort of hassle.
Not so long ago you even ended up sending me a PM as a result from a PM sent to you by someone else to question me about a message on the forum that appears to have been by me. Whilst you even phoned me to apologize about the misunderstanding, the instigator of the 'cut & paste' and the person who complained to you never showed such decency towards me. Since then I have used extreme caution where possible with regards to anything I write on AoS that has to do with my products. I never know where it could end up being used with 'my name' being attached to it.


I completely understand, but with respect, that was a very different situation.

This time you've got one of the forum owners asking you a question and seeking some specific information.

In those circumstances, it's best not to be evasive and supply the requested information A.S.A.P because he'll just keep asking anyway until he gets it..... ;)

Not to worry, it's good now that the rather grey area regarding the cost of the Caiman PSU has been cleared up and put into the public domain for reference. You know that I'm a big supporter of your products :cool:

Marco.

StanleyB
06-11-2009, 15:12
You know that I'm a big supporter of your products
Of that I have no doubt. We do go back many years and many collective forum expulsions after all:eyebrows:.
But not everyone who asks me questions may have honest intent. Apparent innocent questions could be the results of attempts to arrive at the source of my cost cutting design secrets;).

Gazjam
06-11-2009, 15:24
Fair comment I'd say?

Marco
06-11-2009, 15:31
But not everyone who asks me questions may have honest intent. Apparent innocent questions could be the results of attempts to arrive at the source of my cost cutting design secrets ;)

Indeed! But you should know that doesn't apply to me, not least because I couldn't solder anything to save my life!! :lolsign:

Sometimes it's best just to tell it as it is, as 'grey areas' can cause speculation which may not always be in your best interests. Quite simply, if the facts are out in the open then there's nothing to speculate about :)

Marco.

Fi-Wi
06-11-2009, 16:50
I sold a Caiman to a guy from Holland in August, ......
What?! There's another Caiman singing in the Netherlands? :steam:

Gazjam
06-11-2009, 19:05
Guess everyones different....;)

CanDAC
06-11-2009, 19:05
I've posted before on Benchmark vs. Caiman, but for those who haven't read it here goes. I owned a DAC-1 for more than a year ( it was a late '06 build purchased used). The Caiman showed it's superiority after only several hours burn-in as it was more detailed and musical at the same time. My DAC-1 had also benefitted from an upgraded power cord, and it still lost (and has found a new owner since). The Benchmark is more hefty and rugged (for pro studio use), but that's not relevant to me, nor I imagine most in this forum. The Caiman is still being broken in, and doesn't even have the upgraded PSU which I've ordered (waiting patiently, Stan).

Given that the Caiman costs about 1/4 what the equivalent model Benchmark costs, Stan is to be congratulated for offering such value to the consumer.

Chippy_boy
07-11-2009, 08:56
They do not. The DAC1 and TC-7520 use the NE5532, whilst the Caiman and HDR us ethe LM4562NA. Those two opamps sound completely different in their respective environment.

Good point - I forgot that. It's only the "USB" model and later that use the LM4562's.