View Full Version : Is 20 watts enough power?
Chunky70
03-03-2016, 19:02
For 85db sensitive speakers when sitting 2 metres away?
i would say probably not quite. It may work to a point but unless its got a good grip of the speakers then it will struggle at times. depends though as some speakers are an easy load.
Wakefield Turntables
03-03-2016, 19:17
No prolly not! I've got 100W sunk into a 90db+ speakers and the differences between how the speakers sing when they have 20-30W compared to 100W is MASSIVE!
jandl100
03-03-2016, 19:23
It depends how easy the speakers are to drive - i.e. the impedance curve not just sensitivity.
My speakers are about 86dB, in room, and I am currently listening to an 8wpc amp and it sounds fab.
Arkless Electronics
03-03-2016, 19:24
It obviously depends on how loud you want it... 85dB/W is fairly inefficient but if you listen at "TV volume" or a bit above then it's more than ample. If you like things pretty loud then no it's not enough.
Ostensibly there is no reason a 20W amp would grip the speakers or drive awkward loads any worse than a 200W amp, up until it clips of course. In practice though it's often the case that a 20WPC or so amp will be a budget amp with mains transformer, smoothing caps, number of output transistors etc strictly down to a budget.
Chunky70
03-03-2016, 19:26
Thanks Grant.
Thought I would set up a cheap system in the spare room using a Cambridge audio AM1 amp I have lying around which is 20 watts into 8ohms. Just need speakers noticed richer sounds are offering the Mission SX1's in cherry for only £200! These are only 85db though.
For 200 you will get a better suited pair on 2nd hand market I think. But if in doubt ask if you can try them on your amp; they may agree to a demo, either there or at your home...if you dont ask you dont get
Chunky70
03-03-2016, 19:39
Those speakers demand a better amp i suppose.
Thanks to everyone.
As above, I would say that 85dB is not particularly efficient - bordering on the inefficient even.
Ninanina
03-03-2016, 22:03
I have a pair of LS3/5a's which are about 83dB and I would certainly consider those to be pretty inefficient and my Oto at 8w is definitely not enough to drive them 'properly'
I have a pair of Mark Audio 4' (nominal :-) drivers 85db Eff in 6 ltre Boxes.
Driven by my old DIY point to point ta2020 amp ~20 watts on a 'good day'.
Setup in my bedroom.
The things sound Pretty damn good actually , plenty loud enough (14' x 17' room) with surprising dynamics, Very pleasing.
Then I go downstairs and listen to my 'main' rig .. immediately realising that the bedroom setup is just a step above an I pod.
This happens about every 2 weeks or so :)
No, unless it's 20W class A ;)
Marco.
Michael loves music
04-03-2016, 09:26
I prefer lower volumes with romantic music with the ladies so I'd say yes 20 watt is enough
No, unless it's 20W class A ;)
As stated here the watts do not actually tell that much of the capabilities amp has to drive speakers with different loads characteristics. Some low powered amps handle very well inefficient speakers with very difficult loads. And vice versa some monster amps with XXX watt rating cannot drive some speakers properly. This depends of many things e.g. circuit design including the PSU e.g transformer size/quality, cap reserves and then the bias set for the tubes/op-amps etc.
I would say in most of the cases 20W might be enough, in some cases not even close :D
Hi Mika,
Yes, I know and agree. However, I was just answering the OP's question, purely in terms of wattage, as 20W of pure Class A, is very different from 20W of Class A/B, or Class B ;)
Marco.
I prefer lower volumes with romantic music with the ladies so I'd say yes 20 watt is enough
Is that so you can hear her moan? :eyebrows:
Marco.
It's also known that poor choice of music can make women scream despite what monster amp or speakers you have.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Drevil_million_dollars.jpg
Oops, it's definitely Friday. I'll get my coat..
Haselsh1
04-03-2016, 11:20
In short, I would say, no. You are going to have very little 'reserve' power. Why have 150 Watts...? Why have a car that is faster than 70mph...? If your car can happily do 140mph then you have a reserve of 70mph but if your amp is only 20 Wpc then your reserve is only going to be around 15 Watts. That's my twopenneth anyway.
Frazeur1
04-03-2016, 11:25
Or how about that old and familiar chestnut, is it solid state watts, or tube watts? ;)
Haselsh1
04-03-2016, 11:49
Or how about that old and familiar chestnut, is it solid state watts, or tube watts? ;)
:eyebrows: I wonder what the definition of a Watt is...? Let me see, oh yes, it is the same whether it be for a valve or a transistor.
Lovin it.
Arkless Electronics
04-03-2016, 11:49
Hi Mika,
Yes, I know and agree. However, I was just answering the OP's question, purely in terms of wattage, as 20W of pure Class A, is very different from 20W of Class A/B, or Class B ;)
Marco.
No it's not. It is no different whatsoever....
Haselsh1
04-03-2016, 11:51
Someone once stated whilst talking about engines that there ain't no substitute for cubes. I personally feel that there ain't no substitute for Watts.
Haselsh1
04-03-2016, 11:52
No it's not. It is no different whatsoever....
+1 from me.
;)
rikardo1979
04-03-2016, 11:54
this seems to be :goodthread:
http://img.michaeljacksonspictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/popcorn-blank.gif
Arkless Electronics
04-03-2016, 12:12
2.83 Volts into 8 Ohm is one Watt wherever it comes from. Valve amps can sometimes sound louder than their paper rating because of soft clipping i.e a 20W valve amp may give 25W+ before overload distortion becomes really obvious. This distortion in itself can cause the sound to appear louder. The actual difference between 20 and 25W is barely audible.
A class A amp of 20WPC will usually be a fairly substantial and expensive beasty and so the power supply etc etc will be as substantial as that of a 100WPC class A/B amp. Due to this the amp will generally have all the control, grip, poise etc of a 200WPC amp.... right up to 19.999W. A cheap budget 20WPC amp will not be class A obviously and will have a weedy power supply. This means it gradually wimps out as it gets louder. It is this "meatyness of power supply" issue that can give the idea of class A Watts being louder/better. If the class A/B amp was given the same power supply as the class A amp it would match it Watt for Watt on loudness and grip (generally anyway).
Watts is Watts folks at the end of the day....
2.83 Volts into 8 Ohm is one Watt wherever it comes from. Valve amps can sometimes sound louder than their paper rating because of soft clipping i.e a 20W valve amp may give 25W+ before overload distortion becomes really obvious. This distortion in itself can cause the sound to appear louder. The actual difference between 20 and 25W is barely audible.
A class A amp of 20WPC will usually be a fairly substantial and expensive beasty and so the power supply etc etc will be as substantial as that of a 100WPC class A/B amp. Due to this the amp will generally have all the control, grip, poise etc of a 200WPC amp.... right up to 19.999W. A cheap budget 20WPC amp will not be class A obviously and will have a weedy power supply. This means it gradually wimps out as it gets louder. It is this "meatyness of power supply" issue that can give the idea of class A Watts being louder/better. If the class A/B amp was given the same power supply as the class A amp it would match it Watt for Watt on loudness and grip (generally anyway).
Watts is Watts folks at the end of the day....
Good post. :)
At 85 db sensitivity 2 watts into a pair of speakers will give 91 db at 1 metre which is pretty loud, in fact as loud as you will need. 20 watts should be more than enough if only sat 2 metres away, unless you are already deaf ;)
No it's not. It is no different whatsoever....
You know what Marco really means though, don't you; the fact that valves often clip in a subjectively more forgiving way than transistors :). I suspect a lot of low powered valve amps likely spend most of their lives running into clipping (unless into exceedingly efficient speakers).
EDIT: Oh, sorry, posted before I had read post #25.
Its not all about volume although thats gonna be affected. Sound quality wont be good enough either.. Ive ran 20 watt t amp into more sensitive speakers than that and it sounded flat
Arkless Electronics
04-03-2016, 12:37
Its not all about volume although thats gonna be affected. Sound quality wont be good enough either.. Ive ran 20 watt t amp into more sensitive speakers than that and it sounded flat
Like I say there is no difference between 20W from a 200W amp and 20W from a 21W amp... PROVIDED that the power supply etc on the 21W amp is meaty enough so things aren't gradually wimping out from 15W upwards. In the case of most things like a NAD 3020 of 20WPC (just the first 20WPC amp to come to mind, nothing more) it , and anything similar, has nothing like the quality and meatyness to it's PSU and other important areas to be able to do this. Barry's 25WPC Mark Levinson will do this... easily!
southall-1998
04-03-2016, 12:47
Must have imagined it eh
Yeah probably :)
S.
Beobloke
04-03-2016, 12:49
Is 20 watts enough power?
No it isn't, ever. And no, I didn't bother reading the rest of the question before answering! :D
Arkless Electronics
04-03-2016, 13:12
Must have imagined it eh
I'd guess 60% of everything said about audio is based on expectation bias etc.... I report engineering facts in a matter such as this. A T amp is nowhere near the meatyness I'm saying is required! 90% of 20WPC amps will be too weedy to do the "sounds the same as a 200W amp up to 19.99W" trick. Watts is still Watts though.
Must have imagined it eh
the T amp might claim 20 watts but is probably more like 4 before it starts clipping.
never believe the quoted specification.
Likewise the 85db sensitive speakers are probably only 82db in reality....
We live in a world of obfuscation - you have to allow for this with everything nowadays, not just hi-fi.
Arkless Electronics
04-03-2016, 13:14
No it isn't, ever. And no, I didn't bother reading the rest of the question before answering! :D
I disagree. It all depends how loud one wants it.... And speaker efficiency. My Leak Stereo 20 will drive my KEF 105.3's (efficient speaker) to having to explain it to a beat officer type levels if the neighbours were in!
Haselsh1
04-03-2016, 13:22
We live in a world of obfuscation - you have to allow for this with everything nowadays, not just hi-fi.
Indeed we certainly do and indeed again, it is not all isolated to just a few examples.
With the right speakers you will get 20 watts out of a good t amp.. Ive heard it. Enough to blow your socks off.
There's a good T amp now?
A class A amp of 20WPC will usually be a fairly substantial and expensive beasty and so the power supply etc etc will be as substantial as that of a 100WPC class A/B amp. Due to this the amp will generally have all the control, grip, poise etc of a 200WPC amp....
90% of 20WPC amps will be too weedy to do the "sounds the same as a 200W amp up to 19.99W" trick. Watts is still Watts though.
Yes, we're in full agreement. That's what I meant when I wrote what I did earlier, because that's what my ears tell me, and many others who've heard the same would agree. I wasn't making a statement of electrical fact. As such, it's generally considered that pure Class A amps sound more 'powerful' than their A/B counterparts, for the very reasons you state :)
Therefore, that fact would influence how others and I, who consider the above to be true, based on experience, would answer the OP's question.
And yes, 20W of anything, in the right circumstances, would potentially be deafening. I've heard 'gig-like' SPLs from a 3W single-ended valve amp, into 100db+ efficient open-baffles! Bloody loud it certainly was, in terms of noise; 'good', however, in terms of how real music sounds, is a rather different thing, as most of it would've been pure distortion! ;)
Marco.
There's a good T amp now?
The amptastic on garys edingdales was superb. If you didnt know the amp youd believe it to have been something exotic and expensive..ask any of the boys who heard it
You know what Marco really means though, don't you; the fact that valves often clip in a subjectively more forgiving way than transistors :). I suspect a lot of low powered valve amps likely spend most of their lives running into clipping (unless into exceedingly efficient speakers).
Indeed, which is why I don't (and never would) use a low-powered valve amp :)
Marco.
The amptastic on garys edingdales was superb. If you didnt know the amp youd believe it to have been something exotic and expensive..ask any of the boys who heard it
I heard one into Ditton 66 and it was joke bad. But they are tougher load than the Edingdales.
southall-1998
04-03-2016, 14:49
Does the Leak Stereo 20 clip gracefully? I do like amplifies that soft clip :)
S.
Does the Leak Stereo 20 clip gracefully?
Yes, I believe it does, with the grace of a gazelle and the poise of a professional ballerina. It's not nicknamed 'The Petrushka', for nothing.
Marco.
I will just leave this here.. :)
http://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements#TKB3ZwKFAtFZKjQ5.97
Beobloke
04-03-2016, 17:00
I do like amplifies that soft clip :)
S.
Personally, I prefer amplifiers that don't clip at all. At least, not at the levels I might wish to use them. ;)
all my speakers are efficient so amps dont matter too much normally. think the poorest ones are 91/92 db ;) the best over 100db and can run on air:lol:
I think with hi efficiency speakers amps matter even more. The quality of the components and transformers have their own sonics etc. Also all the distortion and hum etc is easier to be heard with the speakers e.g. poor signal to noise ratio or channel separation..
That's a very good point, Mika - and so true! Low-efficiency speakers, in that respect, can hide a multitude of sins.
Marco.
southall-1998
04-03-2016, 18:36
That's a very good point, Mika - and so true! Low-efficiency speakers, in that respect, can hide a multitude of sins.
Marco.
Hmmmmm indeed, Marco.
S.
20 Watts on AN/E is typical. Hear them with an 80 Watt amp and the change is astonishing. I was genuinely amazed.
S'all about the amp/ speaker match for me.
As Grant said the 20 watt TAmp into my Eddingdales sounded unbelievable....literally.
Now using an 8 watt 300B Set...and my system sounds ten times louder!
At 94db efficient, who needs 20 watts?
....c'ept when your amp starts clipping, trying to drive speakers in a huge room... {Cough, NEBO, cough} ;)
I do agree with you in general, although personally I always like to have plenty of headroom available, to cope with the 'unexpected' :)
Marco.
walpurgis
04-03-2016, 20:37
I can't say I've ever had an amp clipping. I have heard it on other people's 'systems', but not audibly on mine, ever. Maybe because I've tended to have sensitive speakers. Although I have run five and eight watt valve amps. I had a pair of 102db efficiency Coral horns years ago. No chance of clipping an amp into those at levels you could stay in the same room with :).
wee tee cee
04-03-2016, 20:49
Heard Garys eddingdalales with a mini t-was gob smackeded. Having heard it with his valve amp that is voiced with the speakers.....just makes you re-evaluate what you can achieve in your front room.
I run 57s with temple mono blocks-fine combo IMHO.( hard load and minimal t amp power)!
I can't say I've ever had an amp clipping. I have heard it on other people's 'systems', but not audibly on mine, ever. Maybe because I've tended to have sensitive speakers. Although I have run five and eight watt valve amps. I had a pair of 102db efficiency Coral horns years ago. No chance of clipping an amp into those at levels you could stay in the same room with :).
You have - so have I. On many good quality amps the sound is very subtle. As suggested earlier by Jez the effect it usually of increased excitement (subtle). I used 75wpc into reasonably sensitive NS-1000M speakers - sounded great (Naim Nap135 watts with a massive power supply behind them). When I went semi-active there was a weird relaxed but super up tempo quality that I hadn't expected. The sound character just doesn't change irrespective of volume now.
Haselsh1
05-03-2016, 08:22
Back in 2004 I was using an Audion 300B SEL integrated into Audio Note AZ-2's and it was one of my best ever sounding systems but I was always aware in the back of my mind that eight Watts is simply not enough. I was also shifting my taste in music to heavy electronic music and this system just had no balls for that kind of sound.
jandl100
05-03-2016, 08:44
I had a hifi dealer come round a few weeks back to buy a turntable in my charity sale.
Naturally he stayed for a bit of a listen as he hadn't heard MBL speakers before.
Clearly impressed and noting that my little 10wpc el84 amp was on he said that he hadn't realised that MBLs were semi-active.
:lol:
They aren't, of course, but 10wpc can be very good indeed into the right speakers. :)
Power is over-rated, imo. :D
If you sit on top of the speakers I suppose you can get away with it. ;)
If you want to fill a room with powerful, undistorted sound then you need power, or big horn loaded speakers, preferably multi way. For me has to be multi way I won't give a single driver horn speaker the time of day. They sound wrong with anything but simple jazz and classical and the sweet spot is about 2 inches wide. Even then they ain't quite right.
Heh :)
T'was the leccy...amp never stood a chance!
It does show though that yep, amp speaker matching is important, but so is the room.
....c'ept when your amp starts clipping, trying to drive speakers in a huge room... {Cough, NEBO, cough} ;)
I do agree with you in general, although personally I always like to have plenty of headroom available, to cope with the 'unexpected' :)
Marco.
Haselsh1
05-03-2016, 10:16
If you sit on top of the speakers I suppose you can get away with it. ;)
If you want to fill a room with powerful, undistorted sound then you need power, or big horn loaded speakers, preferably multi way. For me has to be multi way I won't give a single driver horn speaker the time of day. They sound wrong with anything but simple jazz and classical and the sweet spot is about 2 inches wide. Even then they ain't quite right.
Martin, that was the main problem with my 300B SE/Audio Note system. It was so dependent on the music. Simple jazz, simple acoustic and it was stunning but give it some welly music wise and it was truly hopeless, all down to it being just eight Watts.
I find 8W is excellent with my 100db OBs, with active bass from 110Hz down (300W or whatever SS amp with DSP). When I use a 2.5W amp with the 100db speakers I find it dynamically squashed with some material. The 8W amp fed into some easy to drive 88.5db speakers sounds flat. It's all about matching.
Active bass does help. My little SECA valve amp won't blast it out even through sensitive 96db speakers but add a powered subwoofer and it improves things a little. It's those old F-M curves, needing to turn it up to feel the bass and clipping the amp in the process. Okay so it soft clips so is not unpleasant but you still notice the soundstage collapse.
Radford Revival
05-03-2016, 12:02
Does the Leak Stereo 20 clip gracefully? I do like amplifies that soft clip :)
S.
Fairly, they don't clip like a brick wall though they don't really clip that "softly" either. They use a decent level of feedback which will always try to maintain linearity until the last possible moment (undoing any inherent soft limiting in the circuit)
They do recover fairly quickly from brief overload, which IME is a far more audible characteristic than the shape/softness of the clipping. The recovery from overload can last far longer than the clipping event, in some cases on the order of seconds on some designs. I have been developing (valve) circuits with no recovery time whatsoever which will feature in some of our future products.
20watts of tube amplification is.
Haselsh1
06-03-2016, 20:06
20watts of tube amplification is.
20 Watts is 20 Watts no matter where it comes from I'm afraid.
Michael loves music
06-03-2016, 22:03
Ladies enjoy soft music champagne and nibbles
Fine wines, Belgian chocolates...
If you sit on top of the speakers I suppose you can get away with it. ;)
If you want to fill a room with powerful, undistorted sound then you need power, or big horn loaded speakers, preferably multi way. For me has to be multi way I won't give a single driver horn speaker the time of day. They sound wrong with anything but simple jazz and classical and the sweet spot is about 2 inches wide. Even then they ain't quite right.
Erm.. "broaden" your horizons :eyebrows:
I too thought FR's were crap.
Wellll the ones I bought on a Lark, proved as Not.
Clear solid sounds with Very Nice soundstagings. Cheap (ish) Too.
Experiment some.. you may be astounded
Well depends on what you mean by experiment. I've owned Lowthers in the past, okayi I have listened to better single driver speakers but the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages for me.
Yeah, a bit too 'all your eggs in one basket', for my liking...
Marco.
Careful all or I will get my Musical Fidelity protractor out and tell you how much power you need.
You will not like it because it will tell you you don't have enough. For the majority of people, that is.
Jerry is hopelessly underpowered at 8 Watts, for instance.
2 metres distant at 85 dB you will get 82db for 1 watt, 85 for 2, 88 for 4, 91 for 8 and 94 for 16
75 dB is pretty loud at the listening position - so 20 watts should be plenty, whatever Musical Fidelity have to say about it. Most of the time you won't even be using as much as 1 watt.
I very seriously wonder about the truth of the less than 1 Watt thingy.
Playing compressed rock the power needles on my amps hardly move. You can almost use them as a level of compression indicator.
So in the case of compressed rock, on most systems, most of the time, I reckon you'll be using waaaayyyy more.
The whole MF thing, as I recall, is about having enough power to cope with momentary dynamic changes without clipping the amp. If your playing overly compressed music then there are no dynamic shifts to require any additional power beyond what you are already using to get the volume you want.
Yup that's the point. And a marketing exercise to get you to buy superchargers.
But TBH that protractor makes some good points (the text on the back of it). It says many loudspeaker sensitivity ratings are manufacturer optimistic and the truth generally lies 1 to 2 DB worse (less efficient) than claimed. So there is that to be considered, too. Providing, of course, they are right on that point. And somehow I just bet they are.
Yup that's the point. And a marketing exercise to get you to buy superchargers.
But TBH that protractor makes some good points (the text on the back of it). It says many loudspeaker sensitivity ratings are manufacturer optimistic and the truth generally lies 1 to 2 DB worse (less efficient) than claimed. So there is that to be considered, too. Providing, of course, they are right on that point. And somehow I just bet they are.
Now that I have half a KW on tap, I am in the MF "high quality" league. Lucky me:D
Agree - if you compare official sensitivity figures to independent measurements they are often 1 to 2 dB higher. Sometimes the same, never lower.
But if the speaker is quoted as 90db and is actually 88.5 that is not going to make a massive difference to the amount of amplifier power required.
Of course if they are using 4 ohm drivers to get the extra efficiency as is now commonplace then you have the separate issue of current draw. Plenty of 100 watt amps that have feeble current delivery and that is audible, especially when you swap in an amp that doesn't struggle with a low impedance load. This then gets confused with power output.
Arkless Electronics
07-03-2016, 13:38
Power is one of the most misunderstood areas in hi fi (and there are plenty of others!). Most of the time less than a Watt will be used by most people when averaged. The big difficulty in discussing the topic is what is loud? people have different ideas of what constitutes loud! The highly logarithmic nature of human hearing really complicates matters. Most would be stunned at how loud 1WPC really is on speakers of an average ish 90dB/W. Shouting to be heard type loud ;) The issue is that if one then said "lets turn it up to be a bit louder still" then you will probably need 10W! If you then think "hmm that's loud but give it a bit more" then 100W is probably needed. Basically it's amazing how loud a small amount of power can go and just as amazing how much you have to increase that power for it to sound a fair bit louder. Hence for most people who have to think of neighbours etc then 20-30 WPC is probably more than sufficient. If it isn't sufficient then going up to 50 or 70 W will make bugger all difference!! You will need to go up to say 200WPC.
Using the ridiculously inefficient Celestion SL6's on the other hand I once heard a set causing a 50WPC amp to just audibly clip on peaks and in a small room as well. A conversation could still be held albeit with rather raised voices....
Bring back power meters and let amplifiers tell the user precisely when they are unhappy. Whilst they're not perfect they do inform.
And yup, the last few DB cause apocalyptic end stop type excursions of the "can't believe it" kind on my kit. Log scales indeed.
Arkless Electronics
07-03-2016, 13:55
I'm totally against power meters. Useless bling and usually out by a mile. A simple clip LED is far more useful, especially with a hold function for a second or so ;)
I'm totally against power meters. Useless bling and usually out by a mile. A simple clip LED is far more useful, especially with a hold function for a second or so ;)
With no reference I have no clue how good mine actually are. Although high peak demands above > 540 Watts co-incide with audible clipping i.e. the meters DO TELL YOU WITH ACCURACY when the amp is screwed.
Arkless Electronics
07-03-2016, 14:23
All that matters is that you know when it clips. A simple single LED can do that fine.
True but not as visually appealing.
Haselsh1
07-03-2016, 15:37
Not too sure whether this is relevant or not but with regard to loudness, I once went to see a band called Thunder at Sheffield City Hall back in the 90's and the one thing that struck me about this gig was that it was phenomenally loud. At the same time it was also phenomenally distorted. I am beginning to see a distinct correlation here as many friends comment on how quiet my system is until they try to talk over it and they can't. Maybe this could help to explain how an eight Watt 300B amplifier can sound loud...?
Arkless Electronics
07-03-2016, 15:45
Not too sure whether this is relevant or not but with regard to loudness, I once went to see a band called Thunder at Sheffield City Hall back in the 90's and the one thing that struck me about this gig was that it was phenomenally loud. At the same time it was also phenomenally distorted. I am beginning to see a distinct correlation here as many friends comment on how quiet my system is until they try to talk over it and they can't. Maybe this could help to explain how an eight Watt 300B amplifier can sound loud...?
It's certainly true that distorted sound seems much louder. I know what you mean with the illustration of your system being too loud to talk over but not sounding loud. I reckon the distortion from SET's can help make them sound louder but often they are partnered with very high efficiency speakers.
If you think it is too loud for you and you turn it down a bit that is distortion you are hearing. Could be the amp or the speakers or both. Undistorted sound doesn't sound 'loud' in the same way at all no matter how high the SPL.
Friend of mine is always clipping his amp (100 w/channel) and I always complain and he says 'That's what this music is meant to sound like'
No, you're just thrashing the amp and speakers to death you idiot.
He has tinnitus.
Haselsh1
07-03-2016, 16:19
Yeah, my system sounds pretty quiet until you attempt a conversation which simply put means, shut the feck up and listen to the music. I am now however using a 300Wpc amplifier into four Ohms. It also has LED power meters so it has just gotta be good
:eyebrows:
Firebottle
07-03-2016, 17:02
shut the feck up and listen to the music.
Love it :clap:
anthonyTD
07-03-2016, 20:04
They used to say, back in the day, that 10 watts was all that was needed to fill the Albert Hall with sound! :)
A system that has plenty of power, and high SPL speakers is probably the worst for causing severe damage, and hearing loss over time, why ? Simply because you have no idea of how loud it is, without the usual clipping, or distortion you would normaly experience.
A...
Think my big 12" speakers are only 25 watts and the 10" ones only 8 watts. It can go way louder than anyone would want
jandl100
09-03-2016, 08:42
bah - post deleted - I can't be bothered. :)
bah - post deleted - I can't be bothered. :)
The 8 Watt hopelessly underpowered by MF standards comment? Don't worry who cares so long as it works for you...:)
jandl100
09-03-2016, 11:20
Who cares? -- Not me, that's for sure. :lol:
Currently listening to 100wpc and >30A into my Maggies - now they need fairly serious current and power. :)
For me, it's not about having ENOUGH power, but rather MORE than enough power, in order to enable a system to reproduce (all types of music), EFFORTLESSLY. A sense of ease and lack of strain is very important, if recorded music is to be conveyed convincingly by any hi-fi system, which is why, for example, the best equipment tends to be somewhat over-engineered, so that there is always something left in reserve.
Therefore, what's ultimately important isn't power, but HEADROOM (achieved via equipment/speaker/room synergy), and thus the ability of the system (as a whole) to portray the sense that it's never flustered, and instead taking everything in its stride, never having to 'try too hard'. In essence, that if required, there are always another few gears to go up.
In that respect, it's like doing 100mph in a Bentley, or 100mph in a Mini. In the Mini, you can 'feel' that you're doing 100mph, whereas in the Bentley, you'd hardly notice - and that sense of effortless grace is what I seek from my system, so that if I want to turn the volume up, it has the HEADROOM to cope, without things falling apart (something I simply couldn't tolerate), which is why it's always handy having a few watts left in reserve! ;)
So don't think just ENOUGH power - think MORE THAN ENOUGH. Think: HEADROOM.
:exactly:
Marco.
50 Watts on 93DB is, according to MF, just below average quality. This is about the same sensitivity as a pair of A/N Es or the region of some vintage Tannoys.
So, if you have a pair of AN/Es and are currently running a 20 Watt AN amp on them, I urge you to try 80 Watts+ if you like your music at something approaching loud (i.e. still well below pub gig rock levels). Given a decent amp, it will BLOW your AN/Es WIDE open.
Whether you like that or not is another question, but for me, it works. Big style.
Now I can run my Apogees off a powerful tube amp, but it is only good to reasonably loud. There isn't really much in the way of available overhead for the last few DB and you can hear it. Tis plenty loud for most, though.
If you have a 20 watt amp with AN speakers you are probably not the sort who wants to blast it out in the first place. Horses for courses.
The opposite argument is that if a system can't do the Red Hot Chilli Peppers at 'call the police' levels and still keep it sweet and clean then it isn't fit for purpose.
Reality for most of us is somewhere in-between
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