Hi Fi Retailers and the Future

[Ashley James]

There are plenty of undiscerning folks in this particular sector who, for example, could not tell the difference between a £200 Denon and a £12,000 Esoteric CD player. The marketing technique of trying to tap into lifestyle aspirations on this much more discerning forum is not likely to work.

Steve - the DAC in a £12K CD player will be no better than the one in a £200 CD player and both will be better than the CD's that they are playing.

How good either sounds will depend on the designers ability to understand the instructions that DAC manufacturers supply to help them. Sadly the cheaper machine will be from the larger company who are more likely to have better engineers.

As I've pointed out before, the Studio Market is far larger than hi fi so they have a wider choice of better performing and better value for money kit than us. I had a customer that sold a £2K CD player because a £50 M-Audio 2496 fitted into his old tower PC sounded better.

My advice to anyone really interested in sound quality above all else is to consider pro gear and to make sure that anything expensive you're tempted by is actually better than Cambridge Audio, Nad or Rotel, because much of it isn't.

Ash

[jcbrum]

Why? are you ? what sort of hifi do you like ?

edit: sorry, just noticed your name, my apologies.


shalom :)

[Colinx]

aside from the mine is better than yours, (it is) would the operating system and software used within a CDP, and even memory allocation for that software have any bearing on how a CDP 'sounds'. I know that the DAC does the work etc, but so does the CPU in a computer, and it does jack without its supporting cast.

[Marco]

JC,


All £12k cdp's need to have a "special" sound as a usp, consequently they are all inaccurate, and only made in very small numbers by firms who have weird ideas about electronics and sound.


You may have a point with some players of that value, but not them all. There are some superb machines at that price, and the Esoteric is one of them. The problem is you generalise too much and attempt to score points whilst making fatal factual errors that succeed only to make you look rather silly.


CD's are just a bit of plastic used to transport the digital file from the shop to your home. These days we use the internet to do that.


Or you forget that nonsense, use a nice turntable, and play much better sounding bits of plastic ;)

Marco.

[Nick]

My local dealer used to sell Denon, and a business colleague has one.

All £12k cdp's need to have a "special" sound as a usp, consequently they are all inaccurate, and only made in very small numbers by firms who have weird ideas about electronics and sound.

Anyway the idea of anyone actually wanting to use a cdp to "play" cd's is ridiculous.

ROFLMAO

CD's are just a bit of plastic used to transport the digital file from the shop to your home. These days we use the internet to do that.

Oh you mean firms like dCS and Wadia for instance ? Firms with weird backgrounds like defence and telecommunications respectively ??

You don't really explain why they need a "special" sound or why and how they are "inaccurate" by virtue of being expensive ?

You might use the internet to do that don't try and foist that on everyone. I still prefer to get a tangible something in my hand.

Your tone, even though qualified in your signature as humorous, is absolutely unbelievable. Just because you state it doesn't make it true

[Marco]

Ashley,


Steve - the DAC in a £12K CD player will be no better than the one in a £200 CD player


Again, that's a bit of a generalisation. For starters my DAS-R1 is better than any DAC in a £200 CD player. If you disagree, bring a £200 CDP along to our forthcoming meeting and weep as, sonically, the Sony pisses all over it from a great height!


As I've pointed out before, the Studio Market is far larger than hi fi so they have a wider choice of better performing and better value for money kit than us. I had a customer that sold a £2K CD player because a £50 M-Audio 2496 fitted into his old tower PC sounded better.


Again that’s another generalisation. Some pro-audio DACs used in that configuration may be better than some budget to mid-priced domestic 'audiophile' CDPs, but this is by no means universal. However a player like the Esoteric, and others of its ilk, would wipe the floor with most pro-audio gear in terms of the quality of its audio performance.

In my experience the only pro-audio gear which is quite often superior to its domestic 'audiophile' equivalent is the better quality broadcast equipment, particularly anything the BBC used in studios up to around 1990. Technics SP10 and EMT turntables spring to mind, and some of the Studer gear, too.


My advice to anyone really interested in sound quality above all else is to consider pro gear and to make sure that anything expensive you're tempted by is actually better than Cambridge Audio, Nad or Rotel, because much of it isn't.


There's some truth in that, however I've heard the much vaunted Crown K2 pro-audio power amplifier, for example, which many people said was better than a Naim NAP500 - sadly it wasn't, not even anywhere near it!! It was in fact one of the most dreadful things I've ever heard.

So as usual it's best not to follow any type of absolutist mindset and audition gear from both the pro-audio and domestic sectors, then decide for yourself what suits your priorities (and ears) best.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Oh you mean firms like dCS and Wadia for instance ? Firms with weird backgrounds like defence and telecommunications respectively ??

You don't really explain why they need a "special" sound or why and how they are "inaccurate" by virtue of being expensive ?

You might use the internet to do that don't try and foist that on everyone. I still prefer to get a tangible something in my hand.

Your tone, even though qualified in your signature as humorous, is absolutely unbelievable. Just because you state it doesn't make it true

lets face it JC, ASH,
the only reason you're here is because you have p++sed off everyone else on all other forums with your nonsense, and some of them are out for blood, so you thought you would hide out on here for a while, maybe win some friends, score some customers maybe, stitch up some vulnerable people who dont know their arse from their elbow, well, it aint happening sunshines!!! people on here are not having a bar of it, so my advice to you pair is to hop it, while you still can, before i send the dogs round!!!:eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows:
or, you could always play nice, and actually contribute with some meaningful advice, not the dribble that's been down your chins far too long now...
change the record boys!!! [no pun intended]:gig::ner:

[shane]

Some day this forum may be full of interesting discussion about interesting aspects of Hifi, with people listening to and respecting each other, and appreciating that their differences in opinion are valuable and not cause for abuse, denigration and childish bickering. 'Til then, I'll stick to the forums where this is already the case.

Cheerio chaps.

[Nick]

Some day this forum may be full of interesting discussion about interesting aspects of Hifi, with people listening to and respecting each other, and appreciating that their differences in opinion are valuable and not cause for abuse, denigration and childish bickering. 'Til then, I'll stick to the forums where this is already the case.

Cheerio chaps.

Shame to see you leave, Shane.

I think if you look further you will find interesting discussion here. I'm pretty sure also that most of the people here are interested in and support people's right to have an opinion and voice it. It's also in the nature of forum life, as in real life. that sections of the membership will not always agree. What we have here are a few contributors with strongly held opinions who refuse to accept that their accepted wisdoms are not accepted by all. The fact that these opinions are repeatedly offered and when questioned or rejected are defended with "you are all wrong" type responses is bound to cause some fall out. That is life !!

I have yet to find any audio forum where this doesn't occur whether the disputes be about server systems, component burn in or cables. My usual course of action is to waft over that which doesn't interest me. However my involvement in this thread shows that I'm not always able to do that.

[anthonyTD]

Shame to see you leave, Shane.

I think if you look further you will find interesting discussion here. I'm pretty sure also that most of the people here are interested in and support people's right to have an opinion and voice it. It's also in the nature of forum life, as in real life. that sections of the membership will not always agree. What we have here are a few contributors with strongly held opinions who refuse to accept that their accepted wisdoms are not accepted by all. The fact that these opinions are repeatedly offered and when questioned or rejected are defended with "you are all wrong" type responses is bound to cause some fall out. That is life !!

I have yet to find any audio forum where this doesn't occur whether the disputes be about server systems, component burn in or cables. My usual course of action is to waft over that which doesn't interest me. However my involvement in this thread shows that I'm not always able to do that.

shane,
i too am sorry that you dont think its worth hanging around here anymore, dont let a few spoil what could turn out to be very benificial and rewarding to a lot of people in the long run!!!
anthony...;)

[Marco]

Shane,

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, and hope you will reconsider. Nick and Anthony are spot on with what they've said. We aim to provide a friendly atmosphere here with informative discussion, however sometimes certain entrenched beliefs can ultimately erode the usefulness of any such discussions.

I think the time has come to lock this thread as enough has been said and arguments are simply going round and round in circles.

It's time to discuss something else! Thanks to all who have contributed :)

Thread closed.

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Shane,

I will add that this is one of the more civilised discussion forums where debates may be robust and quite heated at times, but at least threads stay largely on topic. I know of forums where certain members deliberately steer threads not only off topic but actually onto the subject of a given person or persons behind some of the posts.

If there is anything specific that you read here and find objectionable, please let us know.