View Full Version : Denon 301 mk2
The journey for a replacement for the 2M black continues.
After the revelation of the M55e/Jico SAS comes the Denon 301 MK2
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1280_zpsvyltdddx.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1280_zpsvyltdddx.jpg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1281_zpsvltrm8ml.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1281_zpsvltrm8ml.jpg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1283_zpsrzz66bwx.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1283_zpsrzz66bwx.jpg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1290_zpsmqht6iot.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1290_zpsmqht6iot.jpg.html)
Just running in.
Oo-er, exciting biting!:eyebrows:
Looking forward to your thoughts on the 301 and its pairing with the K&K :cool:
Marco.
So 15 hours on the Denon 301 Mk2 and my thoughts so far.
Setting up was very easy, beautiful build quality and so easy to adjust in the headshell due to some very long slots in the cartridge body. In fact Denon mention using 4 bolts for ultra rigid securing to the headshell. The large bolts I used were ample. With regards to the bolts the cartridge bolts supplied were extremely light weight, so much so I could not get a tracking weight in the recommended VTF with the counter weight I use on the VPI. I therefore resolved to use some nice chunky steel bolts that gave me ample scope for VTF.
I had intended to use the 301 with a K&K SUT kindly sold on by Marco but very quickly I established the gain was set to high so I need to alter this by moving the internal jumpers and increase loading a bit.
As it happened the previous week I had had a visit from Mr Firebottle who knowing I was going to be using a MC cartridge had kindly knocked up a battery powered head amp for me from his spare parts bin. I used this head amp to partner the Denon 301 into the Croft 25R MM phono stage. We had used the headamp in a session at mine with a MC in the Lenco and it sounded OK until Alan inserted his KIN - game over!
However I changed the battery over to a new Duracel and connected everything up. Silent apart from some tube rush at high gain. What I didn't expect was how good this head amp was going to now sound like with the Denon.
Super smooth and detailed with a lovely wide and deep soundstage and a lovely richly textured organic flow to the music. Of course I used all my best known material and ran it by the Denon. Everything was handled superbly with an open musical presentation. Bass is textured and tight but well extended and the top end is perfect. All the detail you could wish for without any nasties at all. No sibilance or harshness and not in your face. In fact across the whole spectrum this cartridge was sure footed and sounded just right. It is a cartridge you can listen to all day without any fatigue what so ever.
Vocals are presented with realism and a smoothness that I have not experienced before. The midrange is absolutely superb. I just asked my other half what her thoughts were as she has a very good ear and her comment was Natural. This is not a hifi cartridge with extreme lazer detail, it is more rich and analogue sounding, in fact it seems to be a perfect compliment with the valve set up I have. This is not a cartridge for the detail obsessed. It pulls out of the recording all the high end information you want but in a sweet sounding way and does not stand up and shout in your face look at me!
These are my early observations as it has to run in a few more hours yet but the potential for more to come is certainly there when I get the SUT sorted or when Mr Firebottle comes up with a fully developed head amp. I would say even on the impressions of what I have heard this one can do this will be something definitely worth listening too and release the full potential of the Denon 301!:)
Firebottle
21-02-2016, 16:52
Good one James :interesting:
Will be following this as things improve :D
Hi Jim,
Looking good, mate! When you get the gain sorted on the K&K, I think you'll be in for some superb sounds, as those Lundahl transformers are ace :)
I know it's early days, but how would you say the 301 sounds in comparison with your Jico'd M55? :cool:
Marco.
Marco the 301 MK2 is absolutely stunning! There is no comparison to the Jico M55e. It does everything so much better!
I am sitting here gobsmacked. This is the perfect cartridge for my system.
I feel I have finally found a replacement for the 2M Black which honestly is on another level altogether.
This weekend I have been listening to record after record almost non stop -it is that good!
Your hunch this would be the Denon cartridge for my system was absolutely right !!:cool:
I would very strongly recommend you buy one of these!
Nice one, Jim. Glad it worked out well.
It's always difficult trying to give recommendations that (hopefully) turn out to be spot on, when you haven't heard the system that the kit is going in, but I think we have similar tastes, in terms of the kind of sonic/musical presentation we like :)
Yes, I know how good the DL-301 is from using its bigger brother, the DL-S1, which you heard at NEBO. It's a superb cartridge that makes music very addictive to listen to, as its revealing and detailed, but never harsh or sterile.
Trust me, you haven't heard the best from it yet. That'll come once you get the K&K sorted and/or hear it with Alan's head amp. *Then* it will truly blow your mind! :trust: :eyebrows:
In the meantime, enjoy!
Marco.
How are you getting on with things now, Jim? A wee update would be good :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Update coming soon - still running in.:eyebrows:
Okies, no worries. Have you sorted out the gain of the K&K yet? Because when you do that, you'll be in for a real treat - I promise! ;)
Marco.
A few thoughts on the 301 Mk2 before I try the K&K SUT. I am currently using the Firebottle Head amp.
My system has never sounded this good!
The 301 is glorious, it has all the top end info you could want with a magnificent midrange / lower bass. The texture this adds to instruments is fabulous. If you want to hear bottom end tonal quality and balls this is a cartridge worth considering.
I know where your coming from now Marco with the Denon sound.:)
In terms of VTA, this cartridge likes dead flat / horizontal tonearm and tracking at 1.55g.
I honestly can't think of one area I could improve on as the 301 integrates with my system so well. Wish I had tried one of these years ago.
One more observation - this cartridge although MC I think bridges the gap between a MM and a MC. It does not sound all airy fairy detail at the top with little at the bottom. It has the balls of a MM with the tonal textural properties of an MC .
Nice one, Jim. You've pretty much nailed it, mate. That's exactly how Denon MCs sound, and why I love and prefer them to most other types, simply because in the right system, they get the tonal balance/musicality factor spot on! :)
Enjoy, but trust me, as good as what you're hearing things are now, when you pop the K&K in, there'll be a lot more 'grinning time' to come.... :trust: ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
28-02-2016, 12:18
this cartridge although MC I think bridges the gap between a MM and a MC. It does not sound all airy fairy detail at the top with little at the bottom. It has the balls of a MM with the tonal textural properties of an MC .
Which MCs are you referring to James? The majority I've used have as substantial a sound as any MM I've come across. Only two exceptions I can think of are the Denon DL-304 and Transfiguration Aria, which are very sweet, but don't exactly do body and scale too well.
Which MCs are you referring to James? The majority I've used have as substantial a sound as any MM I've come across. Only two exceptions I can think of are the Denon DL-304 and Transfiguration Aria, which are very sweet, but don't exactly do body and scale too well.
Some of the Audio Technicas and Dynavector MC,s I have heard have sounded like this but to be fair I can't be sure they were optimised with the correct SUT/ loading or preamp.
Nice one, Jim. You've pretty much nailed it, mate. That's exactly how Denon MCs sound, and why I love and prefer them to most other types, simply because in the right system, they get the tonal balance/musicality factor spot on! :)
Enjoy, but trust me, as good as what you're hearing things are now, when you pop the K&K in, there'll be a lot more 'grinning time' to come.... :trust: ;)
Marco.
Its the tonal balance and musicality that has impressed me most. Even on bright steel stringed guitar tracks it has dug out a tonal depth I did not know exist and has shifted the whole tonal spectrum down a notch therefore sounding more full bodied, less bright but much more agreeable.
There isn't anything missing at the top but the midrange body is captured in a much more convincing way.
If I can improve on this with the SUT then I will be extremely happy.:)
carruthersesq
29-02-2016, 23:47
Jimbo/Marco
As you both are familiar with the Denon, how would you say they compare with an AT33ptg/ii or AT OC9/iii? Jimbo you mention AT carts so guess you meant one of these and I know Marco is familiar with them both also.
All this talk has intrigued me. I don't think I can afford a DL S1 even if I could find one but the 301 are easily sourced and are relatively cheap.
Do either of you have an opinion on how it would suit a Funk Firm F5 arm?
walpurgis
01-03-2016, 00:27
Try and get a listen to a ZYX R50 Bloom H. It will outperform anything I've heard at anywhere near the price (under £450) and is cheaper than the DL-S1.
carruthersesq
01-03-2016, 00:38
Try and get a listen to a ZYX R50 Bloom H. It will outperform anything I've heard at anywhere near the price (under £450) and is cheaper than the DL-S1.
Hi Geoff
The ZYX carts have also intrigued me. Too many options......
Hi Steve,
I have not heard the AT cartridges in my system but elsewhere and I have found them a bit more explicit towards the top end and the expense of the midRange/ bass so they have come across a little thin in my opinion.
Not heard the ZYX but would like to try one, it was a little out my price range at the time but in 12 months I may go there as I believe Geoffs assessment would suggest it a very worthwhile MC to listen to? I have a feeling that it may well be better than a DL-S1 in my system but that is open to question.
I am sure the 301 Mk2 will be ok with your Funk arm.
A little black box has made its way into my system, a big thank you to Marco for making this available.
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1307_zpstb0tczga.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1307_zpstb0tczga.jpg.html)
It is the K&K Audio SUT. Initially I tried it with the gain set at 1:20 but this proved to be too much and incompatible with the Denon 301 MK2, however gain has now been adjusted to 1:10 ratio and it suits the 0.4mV output of the Denon much better.
The first thing that comes across using the K&K SUT is its ease and transparency. The soundstage is open and detailed with enough bite and grunt in the bass to make a convincing integration in my system. Vocals are particularly well portrayed with a natural unforced full bodied presentation.
I was expecting less weight to the sound than a head amp but it is nearly there, however there is a slight lack of dynamics but nothing unduly so. I would say the top end is slightly rolled off but again it is not lacking in detail.
The openess of the sound, transparency and very good midrange make this a very easy to listen to SUT which works very well with the Denon 301 MK2.
Marco has reviewed this SUT at greater length elsewhere and I would certainly agree with his synopsis. Certainly very good value for money and easily recommended.
There is however something else on the horizon which I have a feeling will release the full potential of the Denon 301 and maybe bring even more to the party. This is Firebottles fully realised Head amp. I have had a taste of it with his prototype which I must say is at least as good as the K&K SUT.
It will be interesting to hear how the finished article works with the Denon 301.:eyebrows:
Decided to change a few cables and lengths etc too and from the SUT. Wow the sound has changed and much for the better.
The K&K SUT now sounds more dynamic and the soundstage a tad bigger. Glorious open sound with no grain at all, super smooth presentation especially on vocals. Bass is deeper and the whole sound is fuller.
I must say the Denon 301 Mk2 now sounds absolutely superb!
Can anyone tell me if this the affect of capacitance change on the cartridge loading or the SUT or both?
Firebottle
12-03-2016, 12:16
Any capacitance change on the input of the SUT, i.e. loading the cartridge, from swapping leads is going to have no effect, due to the change being small and the inductance of the cartridge.
Capacitance change on the output however is going to have an effect due to the higher impedance on the output.
It appears things are getting better and better :eek:
Good stuff, Jim. I should've said that you should always keep the length of output cables, on SUTs, to an absolute minimum. In that respect, I use 0.5m cables, max. I was surprised that you thought your head amp was 'more dynamic' sounding than the K&K, implying that the latter was a little 'soft' in comparison.
That really shouldn't be the case when set up has been optimised, so hopefully your cable rearranging has sorted that out :)
Marco.
Any capacitance change on the input of the SUT, i.e. loading the cartridge, from swapping leads is going to have no effect, due to the change being small and the inductance of the cartridge.
Capacitance change on the output however is going to have an effect due to the higher impedance on the output.
It appears things are getting better and better :eek:
Yes I think the cartridge has fully run in now and getting some very musical tunes out of it.:)
Good stuff, Jim. I should've said that you should always keep the length of output cables, on SUTs, to an absolute minimum. In that respect, I use 0.5m cables, max. I was surprised that you thought your head amp was 'more dynamic' sounding than the K&K, implying that the latter was a little 'soft' in comparison.
That really shouldn't be the case when set up has been optimised, so hopefully your cable rearranging has sorted that out :)
Marco.
Yes the cable and has sorted the SUT for sure although I could probably use a shorter one going into the SUT.
Dynamics are on a par with the head amp but I would say the SUT has less grain and a smoother sound than the head amp. Very musical and a superb match to the 301 - thanks for the help with that Marco!::thumbsup:
Interestingly the difference changing the SUT gain level from 1:20 to 1:10 has made a huge difference. At 1:20 the 301 was difficult to listen too. My friend who also tried the SUT at both gain levels also found this to be the case even though technically his cartridge should have 1:26 gain!
I am getting very beautiful music from this set up now -as you predicted!:)
I've just managed to buy a low hours one off eBay to try so I'm hoping for a similar result ;)
I've just managed to buy a low hours one off eBay to try so I'm hoping for a similar result ;)
Are you using a Head amp by any chance with the 301.:)?
Yes the cable and has sorted the SUT for sure although I could probably use a shorter one going into the SUT.
Dynamics are on a par with the head amp but I would say the SUT has less grain and a smoother sound than the head amp. Very musical and a superb match to the 301 - thanks for the help with that Marco!::thumbsup:
Interestingly the difference changing the SUT gain level from 1:20 to 1:10 has made a huge difference. At 1:20 the 301 was difficult to listen too. My friend who also tried the SUT at both gain levels also found this to be the case even though technically his cartridge should have 1:26 gain!
I am getting very beautiful music from this set up now -as you predicted!:)
Just read this, mate. Glad it's all worked out well! :thumbsup:
Marco.
I will be treating myself to a 301 later in the year.
I am just waiting for one to come up at the correct price from a trusted vendor.
Are you using a Head amp by any chance with the 301.:)?
I've just received a loan of the Firebottle one, so hoping the cart arrives before I need to pass it on.
It's certainly sounding good with my Zu 103 and mm input on my amp, I'm hoping for more of the same if not better with the 301. I have a new headshell to try with the 301 that won't accept the 103 due to no through thread on the shell.
I'll update once all setup.
I will be treating myself to a 301 later in the year.
I am just waiting for one to come up at the correct price from a trusted vendor.
I was doing the same but one came up yesterday at a tasty price with low hours so made an offer ;)
Would like to know how the 301 compared to the ZU 103?
Would like to know how the 301 compared to the ZU 103?
Waiting impatiently on postie ;)
Ok it arrived safely this morning and I've fitted it to an AT MG10 headshell and have an Mpingo Ebony spacer in between so I can adjust the arm to level. It's supposedly done about 60 hours.
Comparing it to the ZU 103 and switching between the two I'm not sure about it to be honest, it certainly sounds warmer with a bit more punch on bass notes, it's maybe slightly less detailed at the top end, but the main difference is the loss of soundstage compared to the ZU 103.
I sit approximately 4m from my speakers and with my Zu I can stand up and immediately walk into the sound if that makes sense, seated, I can pick out instruments just off to the right and left, but with the 301 I need to move about 1.5m closer to get a similar effect.
The big problem is that I like the sound from the 301, but not so keen on the lack of depth from side to side and from front to back. I'm wondering if this can be improved at all?
The Zu is very 3D like in presentation but just lacks a bit of grunt/warmth for rock.
Using the Firebottle head amp on both carts, changes them a bit, the 301 becomes a bit more shut in but it seems to work fine with the Zu.
Switching both carts to go directly to my amps MC input sounds very good. The Zu improves with the Head amp into MM input, but the 301 sounds better direct to MC in the amp.
Confused, damn right I am, I'm going to have a serious listen over the weekend and see which way to go.
I think what I'm looking for is the detail and 3D soundstage of the ZU but the low end kick and warmth of the 301.
Possible?
walpurgis
08-04-2016, 20:04
I think what I'm looking for is the detail and 3D soundstage of the ZU but the low end kick and warmth of the 301.
Possible?
Yes.
The answer looks like this:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2i03hqf.jpg
Bit of a conundrum Mike and as you say possibly the best cartridge would be a combination of the two?
What I liked with the 301 was the warmth and full bodied midrange and its easy musical nature. Might not be as detailed as the Zu as you said especially in soundstage but treble quality is very fine but a not in your face.
Did you notice how quiet it was. Get some old rough vinyl out and give it a spin and see what the 301 digs up!
Yes.
The answer looks like this:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2i03hqf.jpg
Funny Geoff I was just looking at one of these. Have you got a second hand one you want to sell?:)
walpurgis
08-04-2016, 20:14
Have you got a second hand one you want to sell?:)
Not a chance matey! :)
I'm hanging onto mine (and the other ZYXs).
I am using the K&K SUT with mine Mike which may give quite a different presentation.
Sounding absolutely superb in my system just now with very wide sound stage and in fact it was the the 3D soundstage I first noticed with the 301 going from my previous MM cartridges.
I haven't heard the ZU 103 though.
Another on my list!:)
Ali Tait
08-04-2016, 20:44
Try removing the spacer.
Apparently the 301 mk2 is a 103 in a 304 metal body so maybe Denon were thinking along the same lines as the Zu.
Denon also suggest in their literature to use 4 bolts when mounting the cartridge so may try this and see what a little extra mass and solidity at the cartridge end does?
Interesting stuff.
Maybe a Zu 103 will be better?
Interesting stuff.
Maybe a Zu 103 will be better?
Could well be although I think the stylus diamond profile is different on the 301, it is what Denon call a special elliptical solid diamond profile. Probably line contact type.
I will be interested in Mike's final verdict before I consider buying a Zu.....although they have always been on my radar.
I would be interested to know how the Zu compares to the other rebodied 103s you can buy.
The 301 still seems interesting though, although I am waiting for the postie to arrive with my new toy. After that I may consider going forvthe AT33SA, although I have found a ZYX Yatra for a very good price!
walpurgis
09-04-2016, 09:00
I would be interested to know how the Zu compares to the other rebodied 103s you can buy.
The 301 still seems interesting though, although I am waiting for the postie to arrive with my new toy. After that I may consider going forvthe AT33SA, although I have found a ZYX Yatra for a very good price!
Once you try the Yatra, you won't be looking for an AT33SA.
It's a Yatra R100 - about €900.
walpurgis
09-04-2016, 10:22
It's a Yatra R100 - about €900.
If that's new, it's a real bargain.
Thought I would add some mass and bit more solidity to the 301.
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpsm1fz5jku.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpsm1fz5jku.jpeg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image_zpsrjskgmc0.jpeg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image_zpsrjskgmc0.jpeg.html)
Firebottle
09-04-2016, 15:53
...and...?
Your lost in the music, I understand.
:)
...and...?
Your lost in the music, I understand.
:)
Must admit, I am, the neighbours are loving Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Kraftwerk at let's just say, decent levels :)
Not sure if the extra mass is making a difference or the fact the cartridge is bolted more securely but now it has such a solid image and body to the music.
It is even more ballsy and instruments have a more perceivable texture and timbre. Listening to some jazz and the brass instruments have power and greater solidity, nothing even slightly ragged or shouty in the sound. Saxophones are maybe a shade deeper in tone.
Denon in their literature recommend using 4 bolts so they must have found this is the preferred set up. Didn't think it would make a difference myself.
337alant
10-04-2016, 21:35
Interesting thread Jim :eyebrows:, I picked up a brand new 301mk2 over a ear ago and only opened up the box a week ago will have to give it a try, I only have a standard Jelco hadshell spare ?, what would you recommend as a suitable headshell?
Alan
Hi Alan,
I have a fixed headshell with my VPI Tonearm and don't have any experience with detachable types.
Hopefully Marco may be along to recommend one.
Hope you get some good tunes out of the 301.:)
Hi Alan,
The Jelco headshell will be fine. Pop in on it and let us know what you think :)
Marco.
Hi Jim,
Not sure if the extra mass is making a difference or the fact the cartridge is bolted more securely but now it has such a solid image and body to the music.
It's probably a combination of both, but most likely the latter is having more influence on what you're hearing. Rigidity/mechanical integrity is extremely important with cartridge mounting - and you've just optimised both! Enjoy :cool:
Marco.
Cheers Marco, definitely an improvement.
Over the Last couple of months I have been enjoying the Denon 301 mk2 tremendously using the K&K SUT. This has been a good match especially with the gain ratio reduced to 1:10 and I have written a full review with this combination detailing the ability of the 301.
However in the background I have been trialing Firebottles Head amp and indeed found the prototype very good although I would say it was not musically a match for the SUT which has a very organic effortless natural sound.
Just recently I took delivery of Firebottles 2000 Head amp which uses a much bigger battery and I would say is quite different from the prototype. The first Firebottle 2000 had slightly too much gain so Alan kindly build a lower (26db) gain model and popped in some PIO caps. I think although the Head amp is a simple device there is a fair bit of tweekery using different caps and a few other foo tweeks which can make a large difference.
I have updated the Firebottle Head amp thread but in context with the Denon 301 I would say it has transformed this cartridge from good to exceptionable. As always and in particular with MC cartridges synergy of components, loading, gain, tonearm, cables etc etc are paramount. The energy and vitality the Head amp / 301 now has is tremendous.
I remember your DL-S1 Marco with the Head amp and the power and dynamics this bought to the whole sound. I think the 301 mk2 needed a bit more to bring out its absolute best and I feel the new Firebottle 2000 has done just that. I can't say whether the PIO caps have done much but there is certainly no harshness to the sound or grain, in fact it sounds almost Like the SUT on steroids. Probably found the sweet spot with loading and gain?
I have been through quite a bit of material and in every case the Denon / Firebottle has exceeded expectations and delivered a compelling and dynamic performance, always musical,detailed and smooth but now with a drive and punch to the dynamics that has elevated or bought the best out of the 301.
I would strongly recommend if you are trying a 301. Mk2 you try it with a SUT and then Alans Head amp. This will tell you everything. I have found patience and tweekery of both items has paid off and now have a MC cartridge that sounds superb.
Firebottle
30-04-2016, 14:40
Wonderful result :yay:
Excellent stuff, James. It's just a matter of getting the 'recipe' right :thumbsup:
Marco.
Yes definitely. Sometimes takes a bit of work to get a good match with anything in a system and as you found Marco with your passive preamp a little modification and tweeting can bring great results.
Almost every component in my system has been modified to some degree in order to get just the sound I like. Some by just a small amount and others quite radically. Each modification and upgrade of items such as plug sockets and power leads has added incremental benefits and helped tune my system to my liking.
The Denon 301 as with all MC cartridges has not given up its full performance easily and I can see why some folk on first listening may think it a little tame for a MC. However finding the right combination has unlocked its abilities and they are very good indeed. We both sat listening this weekend thinking this has been the best my system has ever sounded since I had it.
The 301 I expect is a little like the 103 in that when it is ideally matched to preamp /tonearm/ head amp or SUT/ loading etc it can truly shine. This is exactly what has happened with the 301 Mk2.
Anyone trying a 301 mk2 start by loading at 1000k and then work backwards if too much. For me this is they sweet spot for the 301 and transforms it into something spectacular.
Sondekker
01-05-2016, 21:18
Jim,
To be absolutely clear, are you saying that you have found the default 1000 ohm loading with Firebottle's new head amp to have delivered the best performance with the 301 Mk11?
I ask because you and me have virtually identical Croft pre/power amps and on the basis of you waxing lyrical about the 301 I purchased the low-hours one from mikeyb (mentioned earlier in this thread) a couple of weeks ago. Having put about another 15 hours on it I am recognising many of the qualities that you mention but after much thought I have concluded that I probably slightly prefer my more expensive Lyra Delos. However, and coincidentally I have today agreed to loan one of Alan's latest (2000 MC) head amps to be supplied with some loading plugs of different values. My intention was to try and optimise the loading on the Delos but based on your own comments it might be worth doing the same with the Denon before deciding whether to sell it on....
Jim,
To be absolutely clear, are you saying that you have found the default 1000 ohm loading with Firebottle's new head amp to have delivered the best performance with the 301 Mk11?
I ask because you and me have virtually identical Croft pre/power amps and on the basis of you waxing lyrical about the 301 I purchased the low-hours one from mikeyb (mentioned earlier in this thread) a couple of weeks ago. Having put about another 15 hours on it I am recognising many of the qualities that you mention but after much thought I have concluded that I probably slightly prefer my more expensive Lyra Delos. However, and coincidentally I have today agreed to loan one of Alan's latest (2000 MC) head amps to be supplied with some loading plugs of different values. My intention was to try and optimise the loading on the Delos but based on your own comments it might be worth doing the same with the Denon before deciding whether to sell it on....
Hi John, not heard the Delos but surprised the Denon gets near it at a fraction of the cost?:)
Yep try the Firebottle Head amp at default 1000 ohm loading, however if you have bright loudspeakers you may want to drop this to 300-600 ohm. I am using SP2s which need a touch more top end hence 1000 ohm loading works well.
May I ask what SUT / Head amp you were using into the Croft?
Hi John, not heard the Delos but surprised the Denon gets near it at a fraction of the cost?:)
Well, that's the renowned 'SPPV' rating of Denons for you! I'm not surprised at all.... Now just think where the DL-S1 rates in the grand scheme of things ;)
Yep try the Firebottle Head amp at default 1000 ohm loading, however if you have bright loudspeakers you may want to drop this to 300-600 ohm. I am using SP2s which need a touch more top end hence 1000 ohm loading works well.
I'm glad that you added that rider at the end, as you had me worried for a bit! In 30+ years of using various different MC cartridges, in all manner of systems, I've NEVER needed to load one at 1000 ohms. It would simply have made it too bright. The most I've ever had to go with any MC cartridge I've used, is 250 ohms, but more often than not, 100 ohms is bang on.
Just be careful, Jim, that you're not overly tailoring things to suit the laid back nature of your speakers, as that isn't really ideal, and almost akin to using a tone control...
In that respect, it'll be interesting when you bring your T/T (and DL-301) up here, and see what you think of 100 ohms on it, in comparison with the 1000 ohms of the Firebottle, which is what my Paul Hynes head amp loads all of my cartridges at.
Marco.
Sondekker
01-05-2016, 22:18
I am currently using a SUT comprising Lundahl LL 1933 transformers wired at x16 into either a Puresound P10 MM stage or directly into the phono inputs on the Croft 25R.
John
Are you getting good results with that, John? :)
Marco.
Well, that's the renowned 'SPPV' rating of Denons for you! I'm not surprised at all.... Now just think where the DL-S1 rates in the grand scheme of things ;)
I'm glad that you added that rider at the end, as you had me worried for a bit! In 30+ years of using various different MC cartridges, in all manner of systems, I've NEVER needed to load one at 1000 ohms. It would simply have made it too bright. The most I've ever had to go with any MC cartridge I've used, is 250 ohms, but more often than not, 100 ohms is bang on.
Just be careful, Jim, that you're not overly tailoring things to suit the laid back nature of your speakers, as that isn't really ideal, and almost akin to using a tone control...
In that respect, it'll be interesting when you bring your T/T (and DL-301) up here, and see what you think of 100 ohms on it, in comparison with the 1000 ohms of the Firebottle, which is what my Paul Hynes head amp loads all of my cartridges at.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
You are correct in your assumption that loading at 1000 ohms I am using the Firebottle to lift the top end,hence using it as a tone control. The Denon 301 is not the brightest of cartridges and the SP2,s are reknowned for their slight lacking in the top end. Their is a modification that can be done to the crossover, I think it requires changing a resistor, which actually sorts this.
So my loading is suitable for my system but in fact looking round the net and on vinyl engine I have found others loading the 301 at 1000 ohms and getting good results. I think others as I mentioned found 300-600 ohms good but again this was system dependant.
In the context of my system it works with the default setting on the Firebottle Head amp.
When I bring my TT up to yours a will bring the Head amp and SUT and also have a listen to the Denon 301 via you Head amp. It will be an interesting exercise.
Sondekker
03-05-2016, 19:46
Are you getting good results with that, John? :)
Marco.
Marco,
Yes I am.
Although having said that, I guess I am fairly easily pleased insofar as I've always enjoyed just about every system I've ever owned and on the few occasions when I've bothered to attend a hifi show I usually find myself quite enjoying most of the systems I've listened to.
I normally find with every change or addition to my system that I make, I tend to notice the slight differences each change brings and perhaps because of expectation bias, I usually interpret those differences as being improvements. If I am completely honest, I could not put hand on heart and say that any particular system I've owned was significantly better or worse than all the others....they've all just been slightly different.
When I read professional reviews and the reviewer will seemingly be able to compare whatever he is listening to with items he might have reviewed months if not years ago, I am simply amazed (and somewhat sceptical) because I usually struggle to remember how an item I only recently replaced sounded once I've listened to the new item for a little while.
The only time I seem to be able to make a decision between two items on sonic grounds is if I am able to do an immediate A/B comparison. I would never make a good reviewer that's for sure.
John
Marco,
Yes I am.
Although having said that, I guess I am fairly easily pleased insofar as I've always enjoyed just about every system I've ever owned and on the few occasions when I've bothered to attend a hifi show I usually find myself quite enjoying most of the systems I've listened to.
I normally find with every change or addition to my system that I make, I tend to notice the slight differences each change brings and perhaps because of expectation bias, I usually interpret those differences as being improvements. If I am completely honest, I could not put hand on heart and say that any particular system I've owned was significantly better or worse than all the others....they've all just been slightly different.
When I read professional reviews and the reviewer will seemingly be able to compare whatever he is listening to with items he might have reviewed months if not years ago, I am simply amazed (and somewhat sceptical) because I usually struggle to remember how an item I only recently replaced sounded once I've listened to the new item for a little while.
The only time I seem to be able to make a decision between two items on sonic grounds is if I am able to do an immediate A/B comparison. I would never make a good reviewer that's for sure.
John
Hi John ,
Glad your getting good results. The 301 doesn't immediately impress but once you get it dialled in as it were with the right set up it certainly delivers the goods. It is a cartridge with a lot of body and an organic richness if I may put it like that. It is one I can listen too for long periods of time without fatigue.
Now I am coming from a 2M black which does impress easily and is very good on the Hifi detail etc but it has some flaws in my opinion which with long term listening can make it a bit wearing, not least it's explicit etched top end. The 301 by comparison is ultra smooth and more full bodied.
I would be interested in hearing your comparison to the Lyra.
The Croft set up I have is a little different from the standard 25r in that I have the RS line stage with 12bh7a valve which gives it a bit more body and less grain. I run the 301 mk2 through the MM stage via a SUT most of the time although when I want a bit more excitement and oomph I have found Firebottles head amp very good.
Jimbo – My two peneth on loading for the DL-301 mkII.
Hi James, I spent about 15 hours yesterday on this combined with trying various turntable mats, using my Pro-Ject RS Pre Amp and Phono stages. This phono stage has a big control knob on the front for adjusting the loading on the fly and my linear tracking arm has VTA adjustment that can also be done on the fly, so this makes the dialling in of either of these aspects a piece of cake, allowing me to hear the changes as I make them.
This is all of course relevant to my set up and lug holes but this has been my experience:
First, I would add my support to Marco's point about not using the loading as a tone control. This also applies to the VTA adjustment, which can be used in a similar way.
These two adjustments work like the Chicken and the Egg, change one and it effects the other, which I found out yesterday, wasting a lot of time chasing my tail and ended up going back to basics.
There is a general rule of thumb that MC cartridge loading should be approximately ten times the cartridge impedance, which is 33ohms for the 301 mkII so about 330ohm is a good starting point.
I set the loading to 350ohm and adjusted the VTA to find the sweet spot, once I had found this, I went back to fine tune the loading by ear.
I found the range of 150/400 ohms acceptable.
Below 150 things progressively started to blur and instruments lacked their own space. Above 400 it was getting too sharp and sibilance started to creep in to voices, again progressively and sounding pretty poor by 800ohm.
So with my gear the range of 150/400 works and the small amount of tonal variation in this range is down to personal preference, I'm liking 300ohm as a general setting but my preference will vary track to track.
If I set the loading to 1000ohm I can compensate by adjust the VTA and get quite a respectable result, but it lacks something and is not as natural a sound, certain familiar tracks producing a slightly strange tonal balance, guitars sounding too forward, voices too far back in the mix etc.
I'm liking this 300ohm setting and my 301 mkII is sounding the best yet using the Pro-Ject Phono stage. :)
EDIT: Could have sworn Marco made that comment, but can't see it, maybe on a different thread? Or I'm just loozing it :D
EDIT: Ah post #64
EDIT: Note the cartridge instruction sheet just says loading = more than 100ohms (40ohms when a transformer is used)
I'm still tempted at buying my 301mk 2 back from Sondekker just to have a spare cart, and there is a Project RS phono for sale over on the Wam that I thought about having a play with. This has helped a lot as I wasn't sure about trying either.
Hi Ken,
Nice to hear your getting some good results with the Denon 301 Mk2. It is quite responsive to loading and I agree that at 300 ohm it is just about right although in my system the default 1000 ohm loading on Alans head amp sounded OK too, if not absolutely correct.:)
My speakers like a bit of lift in the treble region although I have to agree with you some harshness does creep in. Best results for an even handed approach across the audio spectrum is through my K&K SUT which sounds very natural and absolutely spot on at 1:10 gain with the Denon 301 MK2.
I particularly like the smoothness and very natural way it has with vocals and acoustic instrument. It is a cartridge you can listen too across a broad spectrum of material all day long.
I am sure there are better MC cartidges out there but not costing £220!
Yes it's a great cartridge for value v performance and I do love the way it ignores a lot of the crackles on well used vinyl.
The instruction sheet says loading should be more than 100ohm and more than 40ohm if using a transformer, so this might account for some of the different results.
My 301 mkII has sat in the drawer for longer than it has had use in the past, depending on whether I had a MC phono capability, but its back in use now and I'm enjoying it a lot.
I think Alan (R2R) was going to pop a Denon 301 Mk2 in his system but I have not heard how he has got on with it yet?
If you read this Alan can you let us know?:):cool:
Yes I caught that.
My 301 mkII had a short stint with Alan's Paradise Phono stage a few Nebo meets back and worked very well.
Don't know if that influenced him.
He has some Ortofon Kontrapunkt B that sound very nice, but in a higher price bracket.
Denon 301 mk2 back on for vinyl duties after failure of 2M black new stylus. This cartridge certainly is great for old or worn records where it seems to dive beneath the surface of scratches etc leaving a quiet but detailed performance. Where as the 2M doesn't ignore anything!
Quick comparison. The 2M is dynamic,detailed,exciting with a live sound. The Denon 301 is smooth, lush,musical with a rich midrange and nice 3D big soundstage.
Wish my turntable had two arms!:lol:
It sounds like you need a DL-103 of a similar spec to mine.
Unfortunately don't think the 103 will work with my medium mass tonearm. Need a bit more mass me thinks?
I have considered the 103r but to be honest Kev I would probably better off with an AT33PTGii or Zyx MC cartridge if I pursue moving coils.
At 27g, the cartridge provides all the mass you need!
At 27g, the cartridge provides all the mass you need!
Is it a re potted version? Can you pop a picture up?
Repotted, boron cantilever and shibata profile.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48636-Ooops&highlight=Oops
Repotted, boron cantilever and shibata profile.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48636-Ooops&highlight=Oops
Yep that would do the trick!
mindarelus
07-03-2017, 09:54
How do you compare it to Ortofon 2M Black?
Is it very low detailed, compared to the Black?
How do you compare it to Ortofon 2M Black?
Is it very low detailed, compared to the Black?
The 2M black is better than the Denon 301 mk2 in every way apart from musicality and surface noise. The Denon is more laid back and easier listening and possibly has bigger soundstage. The 2M is more exciting, detailed, dynamic and involving. It brings the listening experience alive and into your room.
mindarelus
07-03-2017, 15:34
Wow, that sounds really impressive. Perhaps, I should try to compare the 2M Black with the high end denons, like DL-S1 or DL-304.
Btw, from what you said, it looks like the 301 MK2 is definetely warmer than 2M Black?
Wow, that sounds really impressive. Perhaps, I should try to compare the 2M Black with the high end denons, like DL-S1 or DL-304.
Btw, from what you said, it looks like the 301 MK2 is definetely warmer than 2M Black?
The 301 is definitely warmer and very forgiving of poor condition vinyl. It is detailed but laid back in its presentation. I would say the 2M is closer to the DL-S1. If you want that sort of sound to an even greater degree maybe look at a Decca. This makes the 2M black and DL-S1 sound tame and anaemic!
mindarelus
07-03-2017, 16:24
I tried only AT120E, AT150MLX and Ortofon 2M Red for now. Soon on my setup Denon DL-301 MK2 will appear :)
I'm only worried it won't be fast enough, like the AT, or it will miss details. But after all, not all records should be listened with the same cartridge, so I guess I will swap them from time to time..
Actually the only cartridge for now that gave me understanding what stage means, is the AT150MLX. It's really 3D and stage is great, the problem was it's too bright for my taste.
I tried only AT120E, AT150MLX and Ortofon 2M Red for now. Soon on my setup Denon DL-301 MK2 will appear :)
I'm only worried it won't be fast enough, like the AT, or it will miss details. But after all, not all records should be listened with the same cartridge, so I guess I will swap them from time to time..
Actually the only cartridge for now that gave me understanding what stage means, is the AT150MLX. It's really 3D and stage is great, the problem was it's too bright for my taste.
I think the Denon 301 will certainly be less bright than the At150MLX. It has a great soundstage but is not Agressive at all. Very pleasant to listen too for long periods of time without fatigue. I hope you enjoy it.
magiccarpetride
07-03-2017, 23:32
So 15 hours on the Denon 301 Mk2 and my thoughts so far.
This may be of interest to you and others, since right now I'm also around 15 hours on my Denon DL-103!
Last week I completed my vinyl setup when my cartridge finally arrived. It got mounted on the Rega RB300 tonearm, and I'm now going through the evaluation stage.
I am well aware of the fact that Rega RB300 certainly isn't the most ideal tonearm for DL-103, but that's as far as my budget could stretch at this point (eventually planning to replace it with Jelco SA-750). But for now, I am feeding the signal into a SUT and then into the MM stage of Pro-ject phono.
My impressions? Very surprised by this setup. Really wasn't expecting the sound that this rig is pushing (keep in mind that I'm a vinyl rookie, and that I previously never had a chance to rock a moving coil cartridge).
From what I've heard and read, moving coil cartridges are supposed to produce airy, delicate, intricately elaborate filigree of sounds. This monster is spewing molten lava out of my Maggies!
Is that how it should be? Or am I merely going through the so-called 'break in', or 'burn in' period? Mind you, I'm not really complaining here, because listening to Eric Clapton's "Motherless Children" from "461 Ocean Boulevard" and hearing super hot molten lava electric guitars and sweet melted chocolate bass is music to my ears, as the saying goes. But that's not at all what I was expecting from this cart.
Overall, Denon DL-103 appears to be creating very thick, dense, creamy sound, with a lot of body and some added grease. Comparing Dave Liebman's "Drum Ode" LP with the same album on a CD, the LP sounds fuller, heavier, less polite. Which, don't get me wrong, is how I like them to sound. But I'm not really hearing the much ballyhooed 'airiness' from this cartridge. Maybe it will came later, when I pass the magical '20 hours' milestone?
This may be of interest to you and others, since right now I'm also around 15 hours on my Denon DL-103!
Last week I completed my vinyl setup when my cartridge finally arrived. It got mounted on the Rega RB300 tonearm, and I'm now going through the evaluation stage.
I am well aware of the fact that Rega RB300 certainly isn't the most ideal tonearm for DL-103, but that's as far as my budget could stretch at this point (eventually planning to replace it with Jelco SA-750). But for now, I am feeding the signal into a SUT and then into the MM stage of Pro-ject phono.
My impressions? Very surprised by this setup. Really wasn't expecting the sound that this rig is pushing (keep in mind that I'm a vinyl rookie, and that I previously never had a chance to rock a moving coil cartridge).
From what I've heard and read, moving coil cartridges are supposed to produce airy, delicate, intricately elaborate filigree of sounds. This monster is spewing molten lava out of my Maggies!
Is that how it should be? Or am I merely going through the so-called 'break in', or 'burn in' period? Mind you, I'm not really complaining here, because listening to Eric Clapton's "Motherless Children" from "461 Ocean Boulevard" and hearing super hot molten lava electric guitars and sweet melted chocolate bass is music to my ears, as the saying goes. But that's not at all what I was expecting from this cart.
Overall, Denon DL-103 appears to be creating very thick, dense, creamy sound, with a lot of body and some added grease. Comparing Dave Liebman's "Drum Ode" LP with the same album on a CD, the LP sounds fuller, heavier, less polite. Which, don't get me wrong, is how I like them to sound. But I'm not really hearing the much ballyhooed 'airiness' from this cartridge. Maybe it will came later, when I pass the magical '20 hours' milestone?
mmm...interesting journey your having there Alex. I would say the 301 does have plenty of body as you only have to look at its heritage, the venerable 103. much of the motor gabbing inside is I believe the same although the cantilever and stylus very different. I never felt this cartridge did sound like a MC more like a MM with a nod to MC. It will change on break in and be careful the suspension is a bit weak on these cartridges so don't overload the VTF.
There is plenty of detail in this cartridge and a certain finesse but they may come later. Let me know how you get on.
Firebottle
08-03-2017, 07:14
I think Alex is referring to his 103 James :scratch:
I have a DL-103 and it is a very rounded and full sounding cartridge, as you have said. It gives a magnificent body of sound, or 'molten lava' as you have eloquently put it.
It won't give the the airy, delicate, intricately elaborate filigree of sounds of other more expensive MC's, but it sure does boogie.
:)
Where are you Alex, you would be welcome to a comparison at Firebottle Towers.
Thanks Alan, I was also corresponding with someone else on the post and got confused - its me age:rolleyes::wheniwasaboy:
Sorry Alex - I agree with what you are hearing from the 103. It is an earthy full bodied cartridge and does not really sound like airy fairy MC. The 301 is a bit more airy fairy but is still full bodied and lush in the midband.
mindarelus
08-03-2017, 09:01
From another topic, a guy suggested me Benz Micro MC gold, as more appropriate for my stock 1210 technics tonearm. Have anyone tried it and how it compares to DL-301 mk2?
It's around 150$ more than the denon though..
James - As I mentioned, I'm exhibiting at the Wigwam show on the 19th March.
I will have a 301 mkII in my DIY deck with linear tracking Arm, so if anyone wants to hear the 301 mkII, I'm in the Syndicate 3 Room.
I've given the deck a bit of an overhaul, greased the bearing etc, while I was at it I checked the cartridge alignment and spent a few nights making sure I was in the "sweet spot".
In my set up, with the Pro-Ject Phono Box RS, this cartridge runs quite hot for a low output MC and the level is as loud as my CD source for instance. I'm using a Fountek Ribbon Tweeter capable of 2kHz - 40KHz, but more significantly, has a rising response above 7kHz.
Because of the later, I have found best results with a 1.4g stylus weight (1.4 +/-0.2 recommended) and the tail slightly down on the cartridge, so the VTA is slightly lower than the horizontal position. In conjunction I have found the loading best at around 200ohm, some tracks are ok at 300ohm but something like the first two tracks on Joe Jacksons "Night & Day" album will sound a bit shrill, drop it back to 200ohm and it tames it enough to sound more natural.
It's really filled out the mid range and added weight to the bass with this set up, note, drop the tail too much and the bass will start to sound muddy.
With a dome tweeter and Croft Phono stage, I found 300ohm, 1.2g and nose slightly down worked best, so you really do have to experiment with the settings. :)
James - As I mentioned, I'm exhibiting at the Wigwam show on the 19th March.
I will have a 301 mkII in my DIY deck with linear tracking Arm, so if anyone wants to hear the 301 mkII, I'm in the Syndicate 3 Room.
I've given the deck a bit of an overhaul, greased the bearing etc, while I was at it I checked the cartridge alignment and spent a few nights making sure I was in the "sweet spot".
In my set up, with the Pro-Ject Phono Box RS, this cartridge runs quite hot for a low output MC and the level is as loud as my CD source for instance. I'm using a Fountek Ribbon Tweeter capable of 2kHz - 40KHz, but more significantly, has a rising response above 7kHz.
Because of the later, I have found best results with a 1.4g stylus weight (1.4 +/-0.2 recommended) and the tail slightly down on the cartridge, so the VTA is slightly lower than the horizontal position. In conjunction I have found the loading best at around 200ohm, some tracks are ok at 300ohm but something like the first two tracks on Joe Jacksons "Night & Day" album will sound a bit shrill, drop it back to 200ohm and it tames it enough to sound more natural.
It's really filled out the mid range and added weight to the bass with this set up, note, drop the tail too much and the bass will start to sound muddy.
With a dome tweeter and Croft Phono stage, I found 300ohm, 1.2g and nose down worked best, so you really do have to experiment with the settings. :)
Hi Ken, thanks for sharing your insights in setting up the 301. I have not messed with mine too much but will try a few options when I get time. It is a great cartridge for all round long listening fatigue free vinyl spinning!
mindarelus
08-03-2017, 16:52
On my Phono Ifi 2 I have the following settings:
22, 33, 75, 100, 250, 330, 1k, and 47k
So I guess my best bet is using 330 Ohms for the 301 mk2 cartridge in my setup.
On the gain, should I use 60db or 72db gain? Any recommendations?
At a guess, it would be the 250 or 330ohm setting, depending on the rest of your gear.
As a rough starting point, 10 x the cartridge impedance is often recommended and as that's 33ohm your 330ohm setting fits the bill.
I'm using 66dB Gain and its more than enough with the rest of my gain structure, 72 may be too hot, depending on down stream sensitivity/Gain, I would start with 60dB and see how you get on.
There is never a definitive answer with these things, as so many variables effect the end result and personal taste comes into it as well, but you won't be far out with those settings, if at all. I usually start with the cartridge VTA set so the arm is horizontal and experiment with it from there, noting the setting so I know whether I have it nose or tail down when I adjust.
At it's price point, it is a very good buy, it replaced my Goldring 1042 and I don't miss it. As James pointed out, its ability to ignore much of the crackles and pops on older vinyl is a valuable feature, most of my collection is pre-owned so it works well for me. I would only consider changing if I was moving to the next level, which would be three or four times the price, Cadenza Blue etc.
magiccarpetride
08-03-2017, 17:33
I think Alex is referring to his 103 James :scratch:
I have a DL-103 and it is a very rounded and full sounding cartridge, as you have said. It gives a magnificent body of sound, or 'molten lava' as you have eloquently put it.
It won't give the the airy, delicate, intricately elaborate filigree of sounds of other more expensive MC's, but it sure does boogie.
:)
Where are you Alex, you would be welcome to a comparison at Firebottle Towers.
I am in Canada, Alan.
Thanks for confirming my initial impressions, good to know that this peculiar sound is not due to some misconfiguration in my system :)
Thus far (and I think I'm on my 17th or 18th hour of the cantilever break in), the sound emanating from my DL-103 is decidedly NOT hi fi. Now mind you, my understanding is that these cartridges are assembled and tested manually, so there are no two identical ones coming off the assembly line. Maybe I've received a peculiarly odd one? Examining the supplied frequency response graph that was included in the box, I see that there is a slight dip bending down towards the highest end of the spectrum. Maybe that explains it?
Whatever the case, I've never heard such fiery sound coming out of a stereo system, at any level of price range/sophistication. This thing is spewing fire! I got literally blown out of my seat last night when I put on Bach's harpsichord concerts. Molten lava and melted chocolate, sheer testosterone and brawn! I had no idea Bach could sound so raw, punk, so impolite! Almost like I was listening to Motorhead...
magiccarpetride
08-03-2017, 17:41
Sorry Alex - I agree with what you are hearing from the 103. It is an earthy full bodied cartridge and does not really sound like airy fairy MC. The 301 is a bit more airy fairy but is still full bodied and lush in the midband.
Good to know, thanks James. Like I mentioned elsewhere, I am a vinyl rookie, so this is my first foray into the moving coil sound. Previously (before CDs replaced LPs during that shameful period throughout the 1990s - 2000s) I was only listening to my records on Thorens 145 MKII with a fairly high end Ortofon MM cartridge (forgot the actual model). It sounded hot back then (if my sonic recollection is worth anything), but nothing even close to the fiery hotness of DL-103!
:doh: I don't believe it!
My 301 mkII has just died!
I was listening to London Grammar and could hear a strange background noise out of my left speaker. When I looked at the cartridge, it was running very low, almost dragging on the record surface. I lifted the tone arm and the cantilever dropped back to its normal position, so I lowered it on to the record again, but it collapsed completely. I took the arm off, it just lifts off on my deck and looked at the needle through an eye glass, everything looked ok with the tip and cantilever. I touched it with a cocktail stick under the eye glass and it just fell away from the cartridge, with the small plate holding four coils attached to the end.
I presume this means its buggered?
Sorry to hear that Ken, disaster. I have heard that the 301 has a delicate suspension system and is a bit fragile but you would expect to give a couple of years life?
RothwellAudio
09-03-2017, 14:31
:doh: I don't believe it!
My 301 mkII has just died!
I presume this means its buggered?
Dominic at Northwest Analogue could fix it, but I don't know if it would cost more than just buying a new one. You would have to ask.
http://www.northwestanalogue.com/
The urgency, is I wanted to use it at the wigwam show on the 19th, looks like my Goldring 1042 will be back in service for that.
To be fair, I have had a couple of years use out of the 301, and as pointed out, repair might be be costly.
Got my 301 from the States, not enough time for that. Been considering an Ortofon MC20 Supreme, they are still available new (Thakker) at a little over £500, there's a used one on the bay gathering interest, up to £110 after 17 bids and finishes on Sunday. Used is a gamble though and it may not get here on time.
A new DL-103 is about £179 and I could have one by Monday, that's a thought.
No, I won't rush into anything, I'll put the Goldring in tonight and depending on the result, may bid on the MC20 Supreme, which is a step up anyway if its a good example.
I also have a 2m Red but the Goldring should be the better of the two, as I put a new stylus in it last year and its not had too much use since.
mindarelus
10-03-2017, 15:55
Ken, that's bad news.. How long did you use it? (the DL-301)
I just ordered the MK2 version of the cartridge, I really hope it will be strong enough, because not all my vinyls are brand new.. and.. hopefully it will last.
337alant
10-03-2017, 20:53
Ken
If its of any interest I have a 301 mk2 with about 3hrs use only and boxed, yours for £100
Alan
Ken, that's bad news.. How long did you use it? (the DL-301)
I just ordered the MK2 version of the cartridge, I really hope it will be strong enough, because not all my vinyls are brand new.. and.. hopefully it will last.
My cartridges get a lot of use. I had my 301 mkII for 3 years and it was in the deck for two of those, getting up to 50hrs a week on occasion, 20 to 30 often and never less than 10hrs a week. So I did get good use out of it. I like them a lot, dynamic, good bass and accurate tone.
Ken
If its of any interest I have a 301 mk2 with about 3hrs use only and boxed, yours for £100
Alan
Damn, just seen this Alan, I would have taken that, but I have it sorted now.
I won a pre owned Ortofon MC20 Supreme off the bay, should be here tomorrow before 1pm special delivery. Fingers crossed it works ok or I could be contacting you about the 301. Thanks for the offer.
There weren't any Kontrapunkt B up for grabs - I looked.
I'm not getting email alerts when someone posts on a thread I'm subscribed to, this is how I missed Alan's posting and cartridge offer.
Not knowingly changed anything, they have just stopped.
Checked my settings and instant email notification is selected.
I'm using "Thunderbird", but they used to come through using it, strange and a PITA at the moment.
EDIT: May have sorted this - will have to wait till someone posts on a subscribed thread and see if I get a notification.
blackstar
13-03-2017, 14:39
Alan,
As Ken has got himself sorted, could i possibly take up the offer on the 301?
Regds
M
Alan,
As Ken has got himself sorted, could i possibly take up the offer on the 301?
Regds
M
Sorted as long as the cartridge works!
Otherwise I could still be up for the 301.
The MC20 Supreme arrived this morning, fitted and working very well, so I won't be pursuing Alan's 301 Blackstar.
blackstar
14-03-2017, 16:02
Thanks Ken; I'll get hold of Alan (unless you have already told him).
337alant
15-03-2017, 22:19
Blackstar
If you are still interested its yours PM me your address
Alan
blackstar
16-03-2017, 05:47
Hello Alan, I've PMed you.
mindarelus
27-03-2017, 14:45
Guys, I just had several hours on 301 mk2. And I can say, it's a good cartridge, but I kinda miss the strong treble (that I had with the AT cartridges). Even I set the preamp to MC 1KOhms, still not bright enough.
The treble is very delicate.. I don't say it's dull, but I think it should be more.
Do you think it will open when the cartridge breaks-in?
technics sl1210 mk2, with rewired tonearm and firm funk achromat mat, stock headshell.
Preamp: Ifi IPhono 2. Denon tracks at 1.4g with 2.0 antiscating.
I wait for the oyaide headshell leads, maybe this would help. But for now, I think high end is just not open enough.Another thing I intent to do is to replace the headshell with Sumiko HS-12, but I'm afraid the resonance will drop under 8.
Bigman80
27-03-2017, 14:49
Guys, I just had several hours on 301 mk2. And I can say, it's a good cartridge, but I kinda miss the strong treble (that I had with the AT cartridges). Even I set the preamp to MC 1KOhms, still not bright enough.
The treble is very delicate.. I don't say it's dull, but I think it should be more.
Do you think it will open when the cartridge breaks-in?
technics sl1210 mk2, with rewired tonearm and firm funk achromat mat, stock headshell.
Preamp: Ifi IPhono 2. Denon tracks at 1.4g with 2.0 antiscating.
I wait for the oyaide headshell leads, maybe this would help. But for now, I think high end is just not open enough.Another thing I intent to do is to replace the headshell with Sumiko HS-12, but I'm afraid the resonance will drop under 8.
I had a Dl304 (?) Which was stunningly transparent and detailed but it too lacked that AT treble. I know what you mean but i think the Denon sound is more balanced rather than completely open. Might just be my experience but that's what i thought at the time
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Guys, I just had several hours on 301 mk2. And I can say, it's a good cartridge, but I kinda miss the strong treble (that I had with the AT cartridges). Even I set the preamp to MC 1KOhms, still not bright enough.
The treble is very delicate.. I don't say it's dull, but I think it should be more.
Do you think it will open when the cartridge breaks-in?
technics sl1210 mk2, with rewired tonearm and firm funk achromat mat, stock headshell.
Preamp: Ifi IPhono 2. Denon tracks at 1.4g with 2.0 antiscating.
I wait for the oyaide headshell leads, maybe this would help. But for now, I think high end is just not open enough.Another thing I intent to do is to replace the headshell with Sumiko HS-12, but I'm afraid the resonance will drop under 8.
The treble does not really get any more pronounced, it is rather delicate although the detail is there just not in your face. I feel this is partly due to its heritage coming from the Denon 103 background. The Audio Technical cartridges will be much more prominent in this area. If you want well balanced strong treble maybe try a 2M black or if you want spine tingling supercar performance try a Decca.
mindarelus
27-03-2017, 15:44
I believe 2m black is not a good match for my stock tonearm. And on the other side, I prefer MC carts.
I like how warm is the denon, maybe it's a break-in stuff, I'll wait till it get to 50 hours.
Exactly - highs are not in your face, actually with this cartridge nothing is in your face :)
I believe 2m black is not a good match for my stock tonearm. And on the other side, I prefer MC carts.
I like how warm is the denon, maybe it's a break-in stuff, I'll wait till it get to 50 hours.
Exactly - highs are not in your face, actually with this cartridge nothing is in your face :)
It's a cartridge you can listen to for very long periods without fatigue. I particularly like its midrange, warm and rich.
mindarelus
27-03-2017, 17:43
It's a cartridge you can listen to for very long periods without fatigue. I particularly like its midrange, warm and rich.
Indeed, it's extremely warm. I don't think 2m black is so warm. I kinda like to have everything from both worlds :)
mindarelus
28-03-2017, 19:36
Actually, after many listening tests, I discovered that the Achromat Mat is reducing the treble... very strange.
I made both recording with stock mat, and with the achromat mat, and seems like the problem is coming from the mat.
I gave the rips to several friends, they all like better the stock mat recording.
Is this normal?
Bigman80
28-03-2017, 19:38
Actually, after many listening tests, I discovered that the Achromat Mat is reducing the treble... very strange.
I made both recording with stock mat, and with the achromat mat, and seems like the problem is coming from the mat.
I gave the rips to several friends, they all like better the stock mat recording.
Is this normal?
There's nothing normal about TTs mate lol what works for one doesn't always work for another.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Stryder5
29-03-2017, 08:04
I have my turntable on an original Sound Organisation rack, one of the original shelves was lost in house move. I made another one to sit the turntable on, after listening for a while there was something missing.
The shelf I made was MDF 13mm thick.
I swapped shelves putting the TT on an original shelf, which I believe was MDF with a sort of film applied, overall 10mm thick.
Difference was marked, tighter deeper bass, overall presentation more focussed.
TT's defy understanding.
I have my turntable on an original Sound Organisation rack, one of the original shelves was lost in house move. I made another one to sit the turntable on, after listening for a while there was something missing.
The shelf I made was MDF 13mm thick.
I swapped shelves putting the TT on an original shelf, which I believe was MDF with a sort of film applied, overall 10mm thick.
Difference was marked, tighter deeper bass, overall presentation more focussed.
TT's defy understanding.
As you have found out Gary, the effects of different materials and positions has a marked sonic effect on turntables performance. The ultimate is an air table and everything you can do to isolate your table from unwanted resonance will improve its performance. Worth experimenting with different materials and isolation components.
I use a combination of a compact laminate material sitting on Sorbothane pods on a wood table which sits on a concrete floor. Does a very good job but I know I could do better if I put more effort in.
Though a little involved, I have found that using thinner MDF layers bonded with PVA produced a much more damped and lossy shelf, and is brilliant in cabinet walls. Low Q result.
mindarelus
03-04-2017, 11:17
Ok, right now I really feel this cartridge is not so much on the high end of frequencies.. 1Kohms loading 60db gain. It's pros are: really warm, very good bass and mid range. Great tracking and the only problem is.. it's kinda boring, the music doesn't get you so much.
But I guess I will search another option to make vinyl rips, because I would like to transfer my collection to digital.
Still I need some more hours to make 50 hours to break-in, but I'm not sure if it will change.
I also so another thread in vinyl engine forum, a guy is complaining for the same thing:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=62293
If anyone knows how to increase the highs.. I tweaked it like you wouldn't imagine, but could not make it sound engaging.
blackstar
03-04-2017, 12:30
Adjust VTA?
mindarelus
03-04-2017, 13:23
Yes, the most strange thing is I didn't notice any change while adjusting VTA from 0 to 6 on the 1210MK2.
Maybe I will have to observe the spectograms of the sound.
Tried every VTF from 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5 and 1.6. To me, best sound was on 1.5
Tonearm wires replaced, the headshell leads.
One major difference was made, after I changed the stock headshell with AT MG-10. The bass became so deep, and that's the best part of this cartridge and the mid range. But still, the highs are kinda dark.
mindarelus
09-04-2017, 07:11
Guys, one stupid question I guess.. After increasing the VTF to 1.8 the DL 301 MK2 actually started to sound the way I want it to sound. Is it too bad to be over the recommendations? I guess it will shorten the life of the cartridge, but isn't it more important to enjoy it while listening?
I would take is easy on the VTF with the 301 mk2 as the suspension is not very robust and liable to fall apart! I would not push it past 1.5g myself.
blackstar
09-04-2017, 09:12
Agreed with that.
Agreed with that.
+1 my cantilever just fell out. So treat it well and keep to the recommended VTF limits.
As for VTA, the small amounts of vertical adjustment your making will give only a fraction of a degree difference to the contact area at the tip, so I wouldn't worry about damage to the stylus or the record. If it was damaging either, it wouldn't sound good, I've yet to find one that sounded best when exactly horizontal. Have a look at post #96, I found in two different systems I needed different amounts of VTA, with the same deck/cartridge, so the rest of your kit is contributing to the overall sound. The loading and VTA work together but it's a bit of a Chicken and Egg situation, where you can adjust one to compensate for the other being out. I tend to start by setting the loading at 10 times the cartridge impedance and work on the VTA. Once I have that dialled in I try the loading again to see if that can be improved upon. I never stray far from these as you can chase your tail, over compensating, for one or the other being incorrect.
The numbers on the VTA adjusting ring are meaningless and only act as a relative guide, different cartridges are of different heights, so you will have to dial in a different number for each one to obtain a horizontal head shell. Every one has their own way of tackling the set up procedure, this is what I do, which seems to work for me. First, make sure your deck is level. On a stationary platter with a record in position, place a small and light spirit bubble on the headshell (mine weighs 0.24g) and lower the arm on to the record, adjust VTA and azimuth till the headshell is level. On a pivoting arm I would then set the offset/VTF and recheck the VTA/Azimuth. Make a note of the number on the VTA as a reference to this level position, set your Phono loading and work up and down from there playing music to find what VTA sounds best in the system.
I'm using a linear tracker at the moment, which has a very short arm, even 0.5mm change in VTA can make a big difference to the brightness and bass levels. I shared your thoughts about the 301 mkII laid back high's but after tweaking the VTA/Loading found a very satisfying combination.
mindarelus
09-04-2017, 14:01
Well, actually I bring it back to 1.5g VTF. basically because I lost something else in the sound with 1.8g. Seems like whatever I do the treble sounds closed, and there is no way to open it. Unfortunately on my headshell there is no azimuth adjustment. AT MG-10
I'll purchase Nagaoka MP-110 now, seems like the right choice for Technics stock tonearm.
Thanks to all for the advices.
Well, actually I bring it back to 1.5g VTF. basically because I lost something else in the sound with 1.8g. Seems like whatever I do the treble sounds closed, and there is no way to open it. Unfortunately on my headshell there is no azimuth adjustment. AT MG-10
I'll purchase Nagaoka MP-110 now, seems like the right choice for Technics stock tonearm.
Thanks to all for the advices.
I must say I get quite a sweet treble from the 301 mk2 but it is not prominent. I use a K&K SUT which seems to work well although I have had good results with a head amp too.
Well, actually I bring it back to 1.5g VTF. basically because I lost something else in the sound with 1.8g. Seems like whatever I do the treble sounds closed, and there is no way to open it. Unfortunately on my headshell there is no azimuth adjustment. AT MG-10
I'll purchase Nagaoka MP-110 now, seems like the right choice for Technics stock tonearm.
Thanks to all for the advices.
I would still check the azimuth. In many plug in head shells there is a certain amount of play, so you can turn it one way or the other as you tighten the locking ring. The holder mounted in the arm can also be adjusted a little in the same way, by loosening the side fixing screw.
I am surprised the VTA adjustment made no difference, my 301 could be made to sound either soft and woolly or bright and forward, and everything in between.
But, if you are satisfied you have tried everything, and its not for you, I have to respect that, I hope the Nagaoka works for you, I would love to try an MP-500, but prices are creeping up.
mindarelus
09-04-2017, 20:01
Maybe there is a preamp issue, but I tried 1KOhm, 330Ohms, 100Ohms, and best sound is somewhere in between 330 and 1000. I think my preamp is pretty good, so I doubt the problem is there - Ifi Iphono 2. All the reviews were excellent, and I can agree that with MM cartridges it is perfect. DL 301 MK2 is the only MC I tried.
Now I decided to return to MM and I consider 3 very different cartridges - AT150SA, 2M Black and Nagaoka MP-500. And in order to decide I will take the low-class of each of them (2m red and nagaoka mp-110) because I guess the overall picture when going to high-end cartridges will stay the same, only details will get better.
And for the Denon I will give it another try with Oyaide headshell, it's 2g heavier than AT MG-10, so maybe it will help.. We'll see..
mindarelus
09-04-2017, 20:28
Btw I still do believe that Achromat is doing some high end suckout (10KHz to 16KHz actually because the top high end is there), but when I try the stock mat, it does suckout in the bass, but leave the top frequencies more open and natural. I compare both digital rips, with software in ways that you wouldn't believe + listening experience.
After a 6 month period of use of the 2M black I have decided to rest it for a while and use the Denon 301 mk2.
Way back when I first started this post I was very enthusiastic about this cartridge and enjoyed it tremendously. Since I last used it however I have had a few changes under the bonnet as it were in my system so i am looking forward to hear how it integrates with the set up now. I also want to reappraise this cartridge and hope I have not judged it with rose tinted specs so I will write more about it in the coming weeks and contrast it with the 2M. I feel they are both very different cartridges which is a good thing as its nice sometimes to have a contrast. MC vs MM and Line contact (Denons own version) vs Shibata ( Ortofon). Warm and fat (Denon) vs powerful and analytical ( Ortofon).
But which one really gives the best musically satisfying performance?:)
Lol... Not sure, Jim, that "warm and fat" is an apt description of a DL-301, although I know where you're coming from! ;)
Denon MCs, in general, simply have a bit more 'meat on the bone' than most of today's somewhat 'anaemic' offerings, in comparison, whose balance is tipped more towards the mid and top-end, although I'm not saying that the 2M Black comes under that category.
In an case, I look forward to reading your findings in due course :cool:
Marco.
Initial impressions going from the 2M to the 301 is the lack of resolution and micro detail. Midrange and bottom end nice.
The 301 really brings out the soul of the singer on vocal material. Instruments are more fully fleshed out with 'more meat on the bone' as you said Marco.
However I am missing the top end detail of the 2M. The absolutely quite surface noise from the 301 is amazing. I have never heard a cartridge produce such little clicks or pops. If vinyl annoys you because of this, BUY this cartridge!
It is a very easy listening cartridge which turns in a great performance especially considering its price, less than half the 2M.
But I do miss the resolution and live acoustic the 2M delivers.
I don't think I have changed my opinions of the 301 and enjoy its musicality but it begs the question should I try a DL S1, its bigger brother which from memory had everything including fabulous detailed insight.
How would you describe the sound of the DL S1 Marco as you have lived with it for a long time and have a much clearer understanding of what it can do compared to the short periods I have listened to it?
Nice one, Jim. You're essentially describing the classic trade-off between an Elliptical and Shibata tip, but also the 'house sound' of both manufacturers concerned, as the voicing is rather different.
The DL-S1 is a different animal, and has the weight and richness of the DL-301, but also incredible midrange fluidity, and a sweeter top-end than the Ortofon, but just as refined and extended. It's also kind to surface noise, like the 301.
I also think it would work well on your VPI. If you can find one, I think you'd love it :)
Marco.
Initial impressions going from the 2M to the 301 is the lack of resolution and micro detail. Midrange and bottom end nice.
The 301 really brings out the soul of the singer on vocal material. Instruments are more fully fleshed out with 'more meat on the bone' as you said Marco.
However I am missing the top end detail of the 2M. The absolutely quite surface noise from the 301 is amazing. I have never heard a cartridge produce such little clicks or pops. If vinyl annoys you because of this, BUY this cartridge!
It is a very easy listening cartridge which turns in a great performance especially considering its price, less than half the 2M.
But I do miss the resolution and live acoustic the 2M delivers.
I don't think I have changed my opinions of the 301 and enjoy its musicality but it begs the question should I try a DL S1, its bigger brother which from memory had everything including fabulous detailed insight.
How would you describe the sound of the DL S1 Marco as you have lived with it for a long time and have a much clearer understanding of what it can do compared to the short periods I have listened to it?
I have a DL-S1 and it is without doubt the best sounding cartridge I have owned/heard. Marco has nailed it's qualities.
I have a Croft 25RS/7 mono amp so very similar to you.
However, FWIW it only really gives of it's best when partnered with an appropriate SUT. I initially used a Denon AU-320 with good results but since partnering with the Denon AU-S1 (made for each other) it is truly awesome. So a word of warning - if you go down the DL-S1 road you might want to factor in a AU-S1 in the future - just saying
Steve
Steve/ Marco,
Thanks for your encouraging words regarding the DL S1. I appreciate the recommendation about partnering with an appropriate SUT. I have a very nice K&K SUT (thanks Marco) which works well with the 301 and can be reconfigured to work with the lower output of the DL S1. However I believe Marco gets the best out of his with a good head amp. I would certainly consider your route Steve with the Denon SUT.
Now just need to find a reasonably priced DL S1!
I am seriously considering this MC because I have heard it and it was truly superb and the memory of its performance was quite profound.
There is a rebuilt one at North West Analogue, not that I should tempt you.
There is a rebuilt one at North West Analogue, not that I should tempt you.
Think it's sold Kev:scratch:
No worries, James. However, my advice would be only to buy a bonafide, untampered with, DL-S1, otherwise it simply won't be the same. It's almost certainly going to involve importing from abroad, mostly likely Japan or the US, so you'll have to factor in the cost of tax and duty.
Marco.
No idea how good this used one is, but look at the price!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-DL-S1-MC-Moving-Coil-Stereo-Phono-Cartridge-USED-JAPAN-analog-au-1000-340/192349235502
:eek::eek:
Marco.
The word USED worries me especially at £1000:eek: I think I would rather wait for an unused one to surface or buy from a known seller with an impeccable background:)
I have seen new boxed DL S1's appear occasionally. Would be nice if Denon started making them again!
Yeah, I totally agree. You need to keep looking though, and nab one as soon as it shows up! :)
I'll keep an eye out for you, too :cool:
Marco.
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