View Full Version : Croft amps sounding dark?
Hi,
I have recently upgraded my Croft amps, driving KEF LS50 speakers, as follows:
Croft Micro25 -> Micro25R
Croft Series7 -> Series7R monoblocks
Although there have been definite improvements in the sound, such as a wider soundstage, more precise imaging, smoother voices, etc., I have also the impression has become darker, i.e. there seems to be a roll-off of higher frequencies.
I have been burning-in the amps for approx. two days (20+ hours) and I wonder whether things will improve after a while. Glenn claims that the amps will sound best after 2-3 weeks.
Any feedback from people who may have similar Croft amps?
How could I enhance the treble?
Thanks.
It seems to me that the non-R might be more 'lively' in your setup than the R?
southall-1998
18-02-2016, 12:02
So, perhaps a more ''grown up'' sound?
S.
What interconnects are you using?
So, perhaps a more ''grown up'' sound?
S.
Indeed.
Ali Tait
18-02-2016, 12:37
I would allow the 3 weeks before making any judgements.
I would allow the 3 weeks before making any judgements.
Yeah, give the ears time to adjust too...
Definitely would not be looking at how to "enhance" the treble - sit back and listen.
My Croft 25R sounds anything but dark. My system is not the brightest but it certainly does not sound dark.
If after a few weeks it still does not lighten up you could try some different valves or interconnects.
I use Chord Chameleons which have a fair amount of silver in them and this helps.
hifi_dave
18-02-2016, 12:47
Croft amps with stock components aren't 'dark' or anything like it. Look elsewhere for the problem.
Croft amps with stock components aren't 'dark' or anything like it. Look elsewhere for the problem.
It's a comparison between Croft gear, not a general observation. What are the differences between the 7 and 7R mono amps?
Croft amps with stock components aren't 'dark' or anything like it. Look elsewhere for the problem.
This. If it is that bad that the o/p is concerned about it enough to post that doesn't sound to me like something that will improve with running in. Hence why I asked about the interconnects, as a possible starting point.
It seems to me that the non-R might be more 'lively' in your setup than the R?
Yes, the previous, non-R combination was livelier. There seems to be a roll-off in the treble. At the same time, the soundstage is now much wider and deeper, setting voices further away from the listening position in comparison to the previous setup.
I'd like to butt in if I may..
I've experienced brand new freezing Cold Croft amps straight out of a cold box and plugged in to listen to at hifi dave's place. Three weeks to stabilise my arse!!! So there for that statement Glenn!!! :lol: An RS preamp did the job straight away for me...
I think I've heard most of Glenn's current wares now and for hours at a time as well. I *think* I know where the OP's coming from, but it's a TINY colouration, very tiny and is more to do with slight mid bass 'looseness' rather than lack of sparkle or treble in general. More basic Croft models like the now discontinued Micro Basic preamp or baby integrated, do have a slight rawness in the upper ranges to me, but it's NEVER objectionable unless the integrated is hard-clipped with too much volume. The 'R' series is natural and totally grain free to my ears, so maybe the reduced distortion up top may be the issue here?
I don't know what the KEFs are doing I'm afraid, but tales tell of them only 'going through the motions' in musical terms, thus meaning that the wonderful communication Croft amps can give may well be diluted in a high-tech speaker designed by engineers to measure well first and foremost. I could be doing them a huge disservice so apologies where due.
Again, no idea on sources or cabling. What yer got?
At the end of the day, can you move the speakers further from the wall a little? Sit the centre of the drivers at ear height
What interconnects are you using?
I am using the same interconnects I was using with the previous setup, namely Van den Hul MCD 102 MkIII.
It's a comparison between Croft gear, not a general observation. What are the differences between the 7 and 7R mono amps?
Well, the 7R monoblocks can really drive the KEF LS50, something I could not say about the Series7. With the Series7 the LS50 were simply playing along. The monoblocks seem to have a firm grip on these difficult-to-drive speakers.
I'd like to butt in if I may..
I've experienced brand new freezing Cold Croft amps straight out of a cold box and plugged in to listen to at hifi dave's place. Three weeks to stabilise my arse!!! So there for that statement Glenn!!! :lol: An RS preamp did the job straight away for me...
I think I've heard most of Glenn's current wares now and for hours at a time as well. I *think* I know where the OP's coming from, but it's a TINY colouration, very tiny and is more to do with slight mid bass 'looseness' rather than lack of sparkle or treble in general. More basic Croft models like the now discontinued Micro Basic preamp or baby integrated, do have a slight rawness in the upper ranges to me, but it's NEVER objectionable unless the integrated is hard-clipped with too much volume. The 'R' series is natural and totally grain free to my ears, so maybe the reduced distortion up top may be the issue here?
Yes, that may be a possible explanation. The sound is smoother and perhaps the lack of treble rawness with the new amps may be interpreted as lack of sparkle. The bass is more powerful and better controlled now.
I don't know what the KEFs are doing I'm afraid, but tales tell of them only 'going through the motions' in musical terms, thus meaning that the wonderful communication Croft amps can give may well be diluted in a high-tech speaker designed by engineers to measure well first and foremost. I could be doing them a huge disservice so apologies where due.
The KEFs lack the body of a bigger speaker, even when using a subwoofer (SVS SB-2000). I think I should change them, when I have some budget. Any ideas for a room or approx. 5mx5m ?
Don't Van den Hul have a rep for being on the 'dark' side of neutral? I reckon that's your issue right there.
Don't Van den Hul have a rep for being on the 'dark' side of neutral? I reckon that's your issue right there.
To be honest, I am not aware of the reputation of Van den Hul interconnects. I wonder that the previous Croft setup had a less 'tidy' sound and this could give an impression of a livelier sound. Now things are better separated, cleaner, wider and deeper and this might (I am saying 'might') give an impression of a less lively sound. But then again, the burn-in so far has only been 3 days...
walpurgis
18-02-2016, 17:23
Don't Van den Hul have a rep for being on the 'dark' side of neutral? I reckon that's your issue right there.
I don't know about "dark", but the Van Den Hul ICs I've owned have seemed a bit dull and unrevealing generally. The exception being a couple of pairs of the old Thunderline cables, which are very good and I still use them.
One man's dark is another's dull and unrevealing. No way are the Crofts like that so i'd try interconnects. Sale or return it costs nothing but the postage to try a few. NVA SSC springs to mind. Deffo not dark dull or anything like it.
The Black Adder
18-02-2016, 18:25
Yup, I would give your noodle a little more time to doodle.
One man's dark is another's dull and unrevealing. No way are the Crofts like that so i'd try interconnects. Sale or return it costs nothing but the postage to try a few. NVA SSC springs to mind. Deffo not dark dull or anything like it.
I have been a (happy) owner of Croft amps since 1989, starting with a SuperMicro II, which I still own (recently upgraded by Glenn to R-spec). I am sure that Croft amps are anything but dull. However, I have to believe my ears and admit that the recently acquired Micro25R and 7R monoblocks present a rolled-off treble. Perhaps now I can hear more clearly the weaknesses of the various components in the chain. I can try different interconnects, but I am curious whether they could make such a significant difference...
Arkless Electronics
18-02-2016, 18:40
A review I read on Stereophile site on a phono integrated Croft had measurements which showed it to be significantly rolled off in the treble.. I can't remember if this was just on phono though. I believe circuitry is very similar in various Croft models...
Interconnects will make no difference as they don't have a sound of their own.
What are the differences between the 7 and 7R mono amps?
''R'' Regulation ? Maybe it's the HT Regulation you don't like?
It was on the phono input from memory and Glenn went apesh*t about it, as the only way to measure this is via the tape outputs - I'm going to say impedance mismatching, but I'm a numpty so probably wrong - Colloms' reviews on Croft phono stages have usually given a 2db rise over 20k...
The VDH 102mk3 was actually fairly neutral I recall and better than the others for tone I thought (the carbon ones were definitely odd and all-one-level in the treble I remember). I did suggest the MG HD1500's and for very good reason. Buy them, use for a few weeks and they'll do what you need I'm sure - the Klotz MC5000 so beloved here will major on depth of image and timbral 'textures' but is slightly different to the MG, at least when new. I had a set of each used for my three power amps (left and right bridged mono's and the headphone amp and where I thought I could hear a slight difference when new, after a few months I was damned if I could notice any real differences.
I think you've summed it up though - higher frequencies are not being 'compressed' as much due to the superior spatial perspectives and less likelihood of soft-clipping compressing more . I hope that's what it is :)
Floyddroid
18-02-2016, 21:08
Sorry and all that chaps but every time i have heard a Croft amp be it pre and power or integrated ( and i have heard a few and on more than one occasion ) i never heard one that i liked or thought that it brought a lot to the party. Due to the many Croft owners and lovers here i am most certainly wrong and /or definitely a minority. However, as the original post describes the sound appears dark and lacking a little in the high frequencies which is exactly how i have found the ones i have heard. Or to put it in a nutshell "dull"! Could it be that it may well be their sonic signature you are having trouble with which may well be down to numerous things like mismatch with other units in your system or even mood and environment. This is no criticism of croft amps which have a huge following and used by some enlightened folk but i do think that hanging onto a hope that they will sound a lot different after three weeks is perhaps a little bit too much to expect. As mentioned before in the thread try some different interconnects with a slightly more up front balance or neutral in audiophile parlance (NVA or Missing Link) though i would also suggest trying another amp/s. Right, i'm off.................. :sofa:
Play any Croft into Rega RX3's, PMC 20 series, NEATs or even sodding modern Spendors of all things and tell me they're dull!!! Sorry folks, I'm not having a go, but I've never heard a modern Croft ever sound dull, too laid back or bland. The power amps DO have a high output impedance (the slightly looser bass characteristic - more 'flow' to these ears, but people differ) and this will have a subtle effect on some speaker's balance - maybe the KEF's are 4 to 6 ohm speakers (look at Stereophile reviews of valve amps to see the kind of effect this has on some amps).
Whatever, I hope you get this sorted. Croft amps don't sound like Krells I grant you (thank Gawd for that!), but they're not sloppy, dull and bland amps either by a long way..
Play any Croft into Rega RX3's, PMC 20 series, NEATs or even sodding modern Spendors of all things and tell me they're dull!!! Sorry folks, I'm not having a go, but I've never heard a modern Croft ever sound dull, too laid back or bland. The power amps DO have a high output impedance (the slightly looser bass characteristic - more 'flow' to these ears, but people differ) and this will have a subtle effect on some speaker's balance - maybe the KEF's are 4 to 6 ohm speakers (look at Stereophile reviews of valve amps to see the kind of effect this has on some amps).
Whatever, I hope you get this sorted. Croft amps don't sound like Krells I grant you (thank Gawd for that!), but they're not sloppy, dull and bland amps either by a long way..
The thing is that the new amps are definitely much more accurate, detailed, smooth, and composed than the previous Micro25/Series7 combo. However, they sound more 'reserved' in the treble. I wonder whether the interconnect can improve things or whether some tube-rolling might help as well...
Definitely try some interconnects, as I mentioned I use the Chord Chameleon VEE 3 and they sound superb, silver plugs and silver in the cable lifts the treble.
Also don't underestimate valve rolling. If you have JJ Teslas in the amps try and get some NOS Tesla valves and try GE 5751s. They may reduce gain a bit but they are detailed and bright.
Interconnects will make no difference as they don't have a sound of their own.
I tested 10 different interconnects using the same bit of music - in fact the fret buzz on angus young's guitar on the intro to 'Live Wire' (Re-master of the album 'High Voltage' on CD)
All 10 interconnects presented the fret buzz differently. Enough that even a civilian wandering in off the street could appreciate the difference. I reckon this is an impedance miss-match caused by the VDL interconnects, hence the rolled off top end which is a classic sign of impedance issues.
It could also be between the power amp and speakers but I reckon this to be less likely. Certainly much easier to swap in different interconnects than to swap speakers.
Firebottle
19-02-2016, 08:56
Interconnects will make no difference as they don't have a sound of their own.
No sound of their own no, that would be fanciful, but when partnered with other kit they can and do change the sonic characteristics.
Maybe you haven't heard it yet Jez but it happens, so different interconnect can make a difference.
:)
The thing is that the new amps are definitely much more accurate, detailed, smooth, and composed than the previous Micro25/Series7 combo. However, they sound more 'reserved' in the treble. I wonder whether the interconnect can improve things or whether some tube-rolling might help as well...
You will find this a lot. As an example, my old LFD PA0 (SE) is a bit more "lively" than my LFD PA2M (SE) dual mono amp, but loses out in all the advantages you mentioned - loses out bigtime in the bass and midbass. Similar thing with the Exposure 2010 sounding more lively than the 3010, why some people prefer the Nait 2 to the higher powered Naim amps...
Floyddroid
19-02-2016, 13:08
The best i have heard a Croft pre-amp is RichB's hooked up to his NVA A40 mono block power amps. An excellent match in my opinion. The NVA'S lending a little pace and excitement. It may just be that the Croft amps simply sound too similar sonically to the speakers ie too much of a good thing.
The best i have heard a Croft pre-amp is RichB's hooked up to his NVA A40 mono block power amps. An excellent match in my opinion. The NVA'S lending a little pace and excitement. It may just be that the Croft amps simply sound too similar sonically to the speakers ie too much of a good thing.
Just for clarification, what do you mean by "the Croft amps sounding similar sonically to the speakers"? The LS50 speakers sound less on par with the amps. It's almost certain that the amps deserve (and ask for) better speakers. I have been thinking of Harbeth SHL5 Plus. Or, if I could afford them, I would love a pair of Horning Eufrodite Ellipse PM65. Unbelievable speakers (and very easy to drive)!
I welcome the more composed and very confident character of the new amps, but I cannot understand why the treble should be recessed... Another observation is that now the soundstage is more 3-D (wider and deeper), but the centerstage seems to have moved slightly further backwards, behind the speakers. The previous amps combination had a more forward presentation.
I bet if you measure frequency response, it won't be recessed. What I think you are hearing is more refinement and lower distortion at the top end. Thing is, distortion done right can be very engaging!
I bet if you measure frequency response, it won't be recessed. What I think you are hearing is more refinement and lower distortion at the top end. Thing is, distortion done right can be very engaging!
You may be right. My ears (mind) have to adjust to this, hence the 2-3 weeks that Glenn suggests (?)
Yes, and when you have adjusted, if switching back, you will likely miss the effortlessness, neutrality, control at decent volume etc. There is no free lunch. :D
Floyddroid
19-02-2016, 14:00
Just for clarification, what do you mean by "the Croft amps sounding similar sonically to the speakers"? The LS50 speakers sound less on par with the amps. It's almost certain that the amps deserve (and ask for) better speakers. I have been thinking of Harbeth SHL5 Plus. Or, if I could afford them, I would love a pair of Horning Eufrodite Ellipse PM65. Unbelievable speakers (and very easy to drive)!
I welcome the more composed and very confident character of the new amps, but I cannot understand why the treble should be recessed... Another observation is that now the soundstage is more 3-D (wider and deeper), but the centerstage seems to have moved slightly further backwards, behind the speakers. The previous amps combination had a more forward presentation.
Sounds like you are on the right track. I think they might well sound more as they should with something like the Harbeth's.
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 14:02
No sound of their own no, that would be fanciful, but when partnered with other kit they can and do change the sonic characteristics.
Maybe you haven't heard it yet Jez but it happens, so different interconnect can make a difference.
:)
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. As I do with virtually the entire world of hi-fi! I use whatever is to hand and make a point of using the free interconnects one gets with CD players etc whenever I can for any public demos! As it's impossible for an interconnect to alter the sound, (under normal average conditions. Not with 20 Metres of interconnect being driven from a 50K source, which will obviously roll off the top end) any perceived difference must be imagined and due to expectation bias. This is my cast in stone philosophy on the matter. The world of hi-fi is a fairly small and insular one and there can't be many people who don't know someone making a living from selling/distributing/making cables of one sort or another which means too much deference tends to be paid to the matter out of not wanting to harm someone's sales in my opinion....
It's a subject I refuse to seriously debate any more as one gets as far as expected in trying to persuade a vicar that there is no god! People seem to trust their ears over the Laws of Physics. I don't.
Jez, I give up. I think Paul Miller did tests decades ago showing how cables react at ultrasonic and even rf frequencies.. Given that so many domestic amps and sources either spray out or are sensitive to such frequencies (again mentioned in old measurement based reviews) and this can *apparently* alter how the amp reacts at audio frequencies, I'm really not surprised about many of the differences we hear. Yep, of course there's too much foo around, but so much domestic audio is all such a mix of compromises,
Using a Croft or almost any active preamp with an NVA really will cause gross mismatching and loads more hum, distortion and noise - I've done it here and speak from experience!!!
I swear I'm really not trying to patronise or stamp on alternative views I promise, but I think some experience with many other amps is called for here - and I say this with deepest respect for you all... NVA power amps are very sensitive on their inputs in the manner of vintage Quads and like these vintage Quads, the input impedance and gain offered responds best to a passive preamp feeding them.
Amps that sound very 'lively' quite often have a mix of high frequency distortions (and some times ringing in the worst cases) that adds an 'edge' to the sound - all clearly measurable so not 'just' opinion. As this distortion is reduced and/or eliminated, you'll find the sound gets 'quieter' in the cymbal region, yet clearer and with more air and space too.
Can I try to give an example of this with the SAME amp? Many here have owned CB era Naim amps. Form new and because of design and component choices, they needed a few months to settle in, would stay fairly stable for a few years and then go off big time as everything drifted off. Anyone buying one of these amps in this state and then listening again after the amp had been back for a recap and reset will hear what I'm going on about, as the whole presentation sweetens no end and 'opens out,' in my opinion even better than when they were new.
P.S. Try absolute phase to see what that does. reverse the speaker connections on both channels at ONE END only - say at the speaker end, the positive cable end wired to the speaker's negative. You may hear a difference and this does sometimes alter perceived perspectives...
I hope you don't design your head amp just based on physics!
Ive heard differences in interconnects and speaker wire and with cleaner mains. Not really heard differences with mains cable although i guess if the others make a difference then i dont see good reason do doubt others. I just use normal iec connectors but through a regen and filter box. A steady voltage and 50 hz is good enough for my system and my ears. Speaker cable makes a huge difference...some are ghastly.
Sounds like you are on the right track. I think they might well sound more as they should with something like the Harbeth's.
The SHL5Plus or perhaps the M40.2? I wonder whether the M40.2 are worth the extra money...
Firebottle
19-02-2016, 14:40
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
That's no problem but have you measured the capacitance of some of the free interconnects :eek:
:D
I don't know what the KEFs are doing I'm afraid, but tales tell of them only 'going through the motions' in musical terms
No idea where you got this one from Dave - have you ever heard the LS50's ?
Ive a nice set of kefs that im not getting rid of for now anyways... One of the nicest controlled mass made speakers ive had or heard for the money...in prime nick too
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 15:04
I hope you don't design your head amp just based on physics!
No I have a small tame black hole in my workshop so I can bend the Laws of Physics when required. Hawking would give his wheel chair to get his hands on it! :lol:
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 15:06
That's no problem but have you measured the capacitance of some of the free interconnects :eek:
:D
I make sure things are driven from a nice low source impedance. Or in the case of a passive attenuator one calculated to still give -3dB above 50KHz min :)
No I have a small tame black hole in my workshop so I can bend the Laws of Physics when required. Hawking would give his wheel chair to get his hands on it! :lol:
Like it:lol: -all the best with your new head amp.:cool:
As it's impossible for an interconnect to alter the sound, (under normal average conditions. Not with 20 Metres of interconnect being driven from a 50K source, which will obviously roll off the top end) any perceived difference must be imagined and due to expectation bias. This is my cast in stone philosophy on the matter. .
I propose a blind test. I will choose the interconnects and we will use my system. None of the interconnects will be more than half a metre long. If I can't score 100% I'll give 100 quid to the charity of your choice. If I can (I mean when I do) then you admit to the world that interconnects can affect the sound.
Hahahahaha.... You're sounding like me, Martin - I love 'throwing down the gauntlet' like that :D
Sadly, even if you were to score 100%, 100 times in a row, Jez still wouldn't accept the point and concede defeat!
This is simply because he suffers from 'reverse expectation bias' (amongst other things, lol), and therefore because it's *so* deeply ingrained into his psyche that cables can't make a difference, his scientifically programmed brain is predisposed to rejecting 'alien data' (thus he 'expects' NOT to hear a difference: the opposite of what audiophiles are accused of doing, even when in reality there IS one), so even if confronted with overwhelming evidence that dismantled his cognitive dissonance and conclusively *proved* that he was wrong, he simply wouldn't have it!! :doh:
You'd have to tie him to a chair and hypnotise him accordingly, to disable that absolutist chip, so firmly embedded in his bonce, before you'd hear him utter the words: 'I was wrong, cables do indeed make a difference...' , after which he'd self-destruct, like one of those robots you see in sci-fi films... 'Can't compute, can't compute... This data infringes my logic control circuitry, master, cannot compute....' KABOOOOOOOMMMMM ! :lol: :lol:
Marco.
LOL I can't believe anyone who has spent any time mucking about with hi-fi systems would say that. I can completely ruin the sound of my system just by swapping the interconnects over. If Jez goes to the next NEBO I can demonstrate that to him.
Don't get me wrong it doesn't work for all combinations of kit and we have all swapped interconnects and heard no difference at all on occasion. It happens. What's more unlike, say, green marker on cds or little blobs stuck to the walls there are perfectly understood physical reasons why interconnects can affect the sound. So I don't get Jez's position on this at all.
Tarzan, where's the popcorn?
The SHL5Plus or perhaps the M40.2? I wonder whether the M40.2 are worth the extra money...
For typical people in typical UK rooms (whatever that means, not the caverns that US users can have;)), SHL5's old and new are all you need for a pretty full range experience.
I don't know the 40.2's, but the 40/1's have a high level effortless quality that's highly addictive and something you only really get from large speakers. They cross over to the mid driver at contralto voice frequencies (I think I have the terminology right here) and in direct comparison with the SHL5, I thought the latter ever-so-slightly purer at these frequencies - in direct comparison! Listened to separately, you'd never, ever, hear it - and the Harbeths are better integrated than any big Spendor I've ever heard, the SP100's just not in the same ball park in all honesty and from memory.
KEF are doing great things for low cost speakers I admit, but their current way of doing things just leaves me a bit cold. The whole point with speakers is to suspend disbelief in what you're listening to and I still feel that some speakers do this with ease where others don't quite manage it. Small speakers are always severely compromised in the way the limited bass extension is reproduced. I can't explain it further, but some convince and others, well, don't...
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 17:14
I propose a blind test. I will choose the interconnects and we will use my system. None of the interconnects will be more than half a metre long. If I can't score 100% I'll give 100 quid to the charity of your choice. If I can (I mean when I do) then you admit to the world that interconnects can affect the sound.
And I have proved the exact opposite on several occasions!!! Even to to a cable enthusiast that wouldn't listen to an amp I was trying to sell him because his favourite speaker cables were on loan to his pal and he considered it so important that he couldn't judge the amp without them.... and with two of his mates involved in the test as well who also couldn't hear any difference.
I can also prove on test gear that there is no difference. How do you reconcile you maybe saying "this cable is very trebley/too much bass" when quick tests will show that there has been ZERO change in frequency response!??
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 17:19
LOL I can't believe anyone who has spent any time mucking about with hi-fi systems would say that. I can completely ruin the sound of my system just by swapping the interconnects over. If Jez goes to the next NEBO I can demonstrate that to him.
Don't get me wrong it doesn't work for all combinations of kit and we have all swapped interconnects and heard no difference at all on occasion. It happens. What's more unlike, say, green marker on cds or little blobs stuck to the walls there are perfectly understood physical reasons why interconnects can affect the sound. So I don't get Jez's position on this at all.
Really? This is news! Their capacitance and inductance can effect things under extreme conditions and this I obviously have no problem with. These conditions will be a (usually) valve amp without a cathode follower at the output or when a passive drives a cable and will be apparent usually when long lengths are in use.
Anyway these things always become pointless circular arguments as we all know.
For typical people in typical UK rooms (whatever that means, not the caverns that US users can have;)), SHL5's old and new are all you need for a pretty full range experience.
I don't know the 40.2's, but the 40/1's have a high level effortless quality that's highly addictive and something you only really get from large speakers. They cross over to the mid driver at contralto voice frequencies (I think I have the terminology right here) and in direct comparison with the SHL5, I thought the latter ever-so-slightly purer at these frequencies - in direct comparison! Listened to separately, you'd never, ever, hear it - and the Harbeths are better integrated than any big Spendor I've ever heard, the SP100's just not in the same ball park in all honesty and from memory.
...
Yes, I have also quite liked the SHL5Plus when I heard them with a Croft Phono Integrated.
But then again, I also like the Audionote AN/E... (note that one of my speaker sets is Snell EII, the forefathers of Audionote AN/E)...
Life is full of dilemmas :)
Firebottle
19-02-2016, 17:26
It's not just frequency response though.
For the revealing/quality fidelity systems that a lot of us on here appreciate it takes only a minute change to alter the very small signals in the music that give the timbre, or space/3D, or air and separation that gives the form to make a believable sound image.
I've heard these changes and sometimes they are not subtle.
You're missing the point though, Jez.
If Martin were, in a DBX test, able to correctly (and repeatedly) identify his preferred cables, from those he considered were inferior, in the context of his system, then that would constitute as viable evidence, confirming his assertions.
So what would your reaction be then, if he were indeed able to prove that?
Marco.
I liked the Snell E II's when AI driven in a huge room ( a long time ago but I thing it was First Audio mono's). The same speakers at home, showed up the cheap drive units with nasty peaks/resonances at the crossover point and a boomy bass in the nearfield, both aspects absorbed by the larger room, Pirate stands and three or more metres distance from them. I can't even begin to take any AN gear seriously these days, sorry, as the price asked bears no resemblance to what you actually get. Sincere apologies, it's just the way I feel. Same with many stylish looking modern PMC speakers, priced for maximum profit all round and using very cheap and not very nice far eastern sourced drivers costing a very few quid each I'm told.
I liked the Snell E II's when AI driven in a huge room ( a long time ago but I thing it was First Audio mono's). The same speakers at home, showed up the cheap drive units with nasty peaks/resonances at the crossover point and a boomy bass in the nearfield, both aspects absorbed by the larger room, Pirate stands and three or more metres distance from them. I can't even begin to take any AN gear seriously these days, sorry, as the price asked bears no resemblance to what you actually get. Sincere apologies, it's just the way I feel. Same with many stylish looking modern PMC speakers, priced for maximum profit all round and using very cheap and not very nice far eastern sourced drivers costing a very few quid each I'm told.
I see where you are coming from with respect to construction cost of modern speakers. Critics (not me), however, say also that Harbeths are similarly overpriced with respect to their real cost.
In any case, I recently upgraded the crossovers of my Snells with modern bypass capacitors, new internal cabling and new WBT terminal binding posts. The bass has firmed up, the treble has become smoother and the sound is definitely better. It took a couple of days for burning in, but I am more than satisfied with the result vs. cost and effort. And they are driven by the SuperMicroII and a Series7, not the higher quality Micro25R and Series7R monoblocks I have in my other system.
I have not been able to make a head-to-head comparison of my Snells with the Harbeth SHL5Plus, though.
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 17:42
It's not just frequency response though.
For the revealing/quality fidelity systems that a lot of us on here appreciate it takes only a minute change to alter the very small signals in the music that give the timbre, or space/3D, or air and separation that gives the form to make a believable sound image.
I've heard these changes and sometimes they are not subtle.
Myself included! I have never sat and compared cables as I know they will all be the same (no, don't bother...) but on the other hand in all the decades of using hi fi I've never suddenly thought "oh that sounds wrong/different compared to yesterday/an hour ago and all that's changed is the interconnects". I grab one at random so long as it will reach where it needs to go and have never noticed any difference, nor would I expect to.
The thing that shocks and horrifies me is how folks will accept, indeed welcome/prefer, equipment that is obviously wrong and has maybe 3% THD, or treble rolled off above 15KHz, it sounds great to them... not to me... and then they insist after not noticing these huge problems (which are real and measurable), that they can hear huge problems with things that make no difference such as cables, lack of pointy cones etc :eek::stalks::doh: I wish I had a tenner for every time I have had to point out to a cable freak that the speakers are out of phase or the tweeter's blown on the left speaker!!!
When I see queries such as "can anyone recommend a valve line stage to add warmth to my system" it causes virtual apoplexy to me!! Lets get this right, you WANT to add colouration and remove accuracy and transparency from the sound? Accuracy is everything and all that matters to me. If the recording was cocked up so it sounds bright, hard, glassy and like claws down a blackboard then that's what I expect to hear from my hi fi!! Otherwise a truly excellent recording, that can raise the hairs on the back of the neck with its realism, will never be able to do that as the whole sound is warmed up, rounded off and made to sound "nice". In my many years of experience I've observed that a large majority of people prefer a system that does not sound like live music but a more "rose tinted, all the rough edges rounded off" version. Many manufacturers therefore design to give folks just this... I don't ;)
If all the above sets me as in disagreement with 90% of audiophiles then I'm fine with this. Just give my products the chance to speak for themselves folks ;)
I grab one at random so long as it will reach where it needs to go and have never noticed any difference, nor would I expect to.
Couldn't that also be another form of expectation bias? You're predisposed NOT to expect any difference, simply because your scientific bias dictates so... It's the exact same 'condition' audiophiles are accused of suffering from, only in reverse...
If you consider that expectation bias, in relation to hi-fi, is a genuine phenomenon (and most of us here believe that it is), where the listener 'expects' a difference to exist, simply because, say, they've just shelled out £500 on some 'fancy interconnects', and they *want* them to work, then surely the opposite must also apply, when you DON'T WANT them to work?
Such phenomena don't simply work one way to suit your own particular sensibilities! ;)
Marco.
And I have proved the exact opposite on several occasions!!! Even to to a cable enthusiast that wouldn't listen to an amp I was trying to sell him because his favourite speaker cables were on loan to his pal and he considered it so important that he couldn't judge the amp without them.... and with two of his mates involved in the test as well who also couldn't hear any difference.
I can also prove on test gear that there is no difference. How do you reconcile you maybe saying "this cable is very trebley/too much bass" when quick tests will show that there has been ZERO change in frequency response!??
I doubt there would be no change in FR in every combination possible. I accept that depending on the amplification used there will be no difference a lot of the time. Anyway you have got me doubting myself now so I will change my NVA cables for freebie leads, listen and report back. If there is no change I will say so.
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 18:32
I doubt there would be no change in FR in every combination possible. I accept that depending on the amplification used there will be no difference a lot of the time. Anyway you have got me doubting myself now so I will change my NVA cables for freebie leads, listen and report back. If there is no change I will say so.
Be VERY careful that when comparing them you do not change anything when swapping cables!!!! This is what confuses most comparisons as even a fraction of a dB change in volume will cause subjective differences. When I've demonstrated the lack of difference I've used a CD so that the player can be kept on pause between tracks and just put back to the start of the track. I've also unplugged the power amp (if the lead in question was between pre and power) as it's imperative that the volume control is literally not even touched between cable swaps.
wee tee cee
19-02-2016, 19:51
The fella has bought new amps that out the box sound a bit flat.....a nva ssc will certainly liven up the treble. Cant say having revisited recently it will upset the sonic apple cart elsewhere in the sonic spectrum-great vfm ic when partnered with the right kit.
I do wonder how some folks cant hear any difference when trying anything else in the chain that flows current.
Cables as tone controlls!!! Hell yeah....in search of system synergy its like getting a recipe the way you like the taste of-wont suit everyone but its your pallet!!
Couldn't that also be another form of expectation bias? You're predisposed NOT to expect any difference, simply because your scientific bias dictates so... It's the exact same 'condition' audiophiles are accused of suffering from, only in reverse...
If you consider that expectation bias is a genuine phenomenon (and most of us here believe that it is), where the listener 'expects' a difference to exist, simply because, say, they've just shelled out £500 on some 'fancy interconnects', and they *want* them to work, then surely the opposite must also apply, when you DON'T WANT them to work?
Such phenomena don't simply work one way to suit your own particular sensibilities! ;)
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Fancy having a go at this, Jez?
Marco.
Starterman
19-02-2016, 20:34
when quick tests will show that there has been ZERO change in frequency response!??
Are a few "quick" tests sufficient?
Does frequency response tell us everything?
What's the accuracy of your "ZERO"?
I see where you are coming from with respect to construction cost of modern speakers. Critics (not me), however, say also that Harbeths are similarly overpriced with respect to their real cost.
I don't know about 'similarly' as AN are out on their own with RA in this - imo obviously - but I understand the sentiment. Having said that, have you seen the price of similarly specced Spendor SP1/2r lately?
Trouble is, we're poor here in the audio scene and have to pay hyped far eastern prices, where status, cache and retail cost is king. Ain't just speakers either - just look at current E.A.R. prices compared to several years ago :(
Glad someone else mentioned SSC cables. Return if not happy with them if you give them a try.
Floyddroid
19-02-2016, 22:34
Interesting view.
I liked the Snell E II's when AI driven in a huge room ( a long time ago but I thing it was First Audio mono's). The same speakers at home, showed up the cheap drive units with nasty peaks/resonances at the crossover point and a boomy bass in the nearfield, both aspects absorbed by the larger room, Pirate stands and three or more metres distance from them. I can't even begin to take any AN gear seriously these days, sorry, as the price asked bears no resemblance to what you actually get. Sincere apologies, it's just the way I feel. Same with many stylish looking modern PMC speakers, priced for maximum profit all round and using very cheap and not very nice far eastern sourced drivers costing a very few quid each I'm told.
Ninanina
19-02-2016, 22:51
The only experience I have of Croft is with their Vitale Pre Amp which was very good indeed and a Croft Integrated that sounded absolutely 'flat' to me, I didn't get on with it at all... Compared to my Oto the Croft integrated just didn't sound 'exciting' or 'textured' enough for my liking..
I don't know whether that helps or not... probably not but that was my finding on my exposure to Croft amps ;)
The stock Croft integrated is nothing like the 'R' models the OP has and it has power limitations. I don't know the bigger version at all.
A good album to check for amp hard-clipping in a given situation is 'Tea For The Tillerman' by Cat Stevens. If he makes you wince or 'jump' when he sings out, I'd suspect the amp not taking it well. Neither the Croft integrated or the Nait 5 like it at a fair volume.. Turn the Croft integrated down a little and it's very much better ;) - Oh, and you are able to hear the different guitars mixed together and the diction in Cat's singing rather better too with a carefully matched croft integrated, than with many ss amps that are more powerful...
Floyddroid
20-02-2016, 08:20
great album Dave
The stock Croft integrated is nothing like the 'R' models the OP has and it has power limitations. I don't know the bigger version at all.
A good album to check for amp hard-clipping in a given situation is 'Tea For The Tillerman' by Cat Stevens. If he makes you wince or 'jump' when he sings out, I'd suspect the amp not taking it well. Neither the Croft integrated or the Nait 5 like it at a fair volume.. Turn the Croft integrated down a little and it's very much better ;) - Oh, and you are able to hear the different guitars mixed together and the diction in Cat's singing rather better too with a carefully matched croft integrated, than with many ss amps that are more powerful...
The stock Croft integrated is nothing like the 'R' models the OP has and it has power limitations. I don't know the bigger version at all.
A good album to check for amp hard-clipping in a given situation is 'Tea For The Tillerman' by Cat Stevens. If he makes you wince or 'jump' when he sings out, I'd suspect the amp not taking it well. Neither the Croft integrated or the Nait 5 like it at a fair volume.. Turn the Croft integrated down a little and it's very much better ;) - Oh, and you are able to hear the different guitars mixed together and the diction in Cat's singing rather better too with a carefully matched croft integrated, than with many ss amps that are more powerful...
Indeed, the R-models are in a league of their own. I was fortunate enough to have my old and trusted SuperMicroII as well as my Micro25 upgraded to R-spec by Glenn and the improvement was more than audible. Instruments and voices were much better separated, had more air around them, imaging and articulation were better, the soundstage was widened and generally the sound was more credible and life-like.
I do not know whether they are worth the extra money (it depends on the value-for-money benchmarks of every person), but IMHO the R-models are very substantial amps, quite better than the lesser Croft models.
I do not know how the Micro25RS compares with the Micro25R and whether it's worth the extra money for the extra performance.
In any case, I also understand and believe that amps, like any other component in a hi-fi system, depend on the synergy with the other components, especially the speakers.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 12:51
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Fancy having a go at this, Jez?
Marco.
I ain't going to bother debating the subject. It's a waste of time. I will keep insisting cables make no difference though. Any one involved in science and physics would regard it as ludicrous that the debate even happens. This is like debating whether engineering bricks float... obviously not! But here 90% of people "believe" they do.... with religious fervour.... The lunatics have taken over the asylum, the cable salesmen have succeeded, and the few sane people who don't agree that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden are now regarded as the heretics! The truth must still be spoken.
rubber duck
20-02-2016, 15:30
I ain't going to bother debating the subject. It's a waste of time. I will keep insisting cables make no difference though. Any one involved in science and physics would regard it as ludicrous that the debate even happens.
Jez, you have obviously dug yourself into a hole which is rather difficult to climb out of. I'm not as qualified as you but there are more experienced engineers out there with good track records who are prepared to admit that just because they cannot explain something does not mean that there is no difference. Cables make a difference. Perhaps you should subject yourself to some blind testing. As to exorbitant pricing, now that's an entirely separate matter
I ain't going to bother debating the subject. It's a waste of time. I will keep insisting cables make no difference though. Any one involved in science and physics would regard it as ludicrous that the debate even happens. This is like debating whether engineering bricks float... obviously not! But here 90% of people "believe" they do.... with religious fervour.... The lunatics have taken over the asylum, the cable salesmen have succeeded, and the few sane people who don't agree that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden are now regarded as the heretics! The truth must still be spoken.
:lolsign:
Cop out! You have a habit of avoiding the difficult questions :ner:
The fact is, muchacho, expectation bias works BOTH ways!
Marco.
Jez, you have obviously dug yourself into a hole which is rather difficult to climb out of. I'm not as qualified as you but there are more experienced engineers out there with good track records who are prepared to admit that just because they cannot explain something does not mean that there is no difference. Cables make a difference. Perhaps you should subject yourself to some blind testing. As to exorbitant pricing, now that's an entirely separate matter
Gentlemen, sorry to interfere in this exchange of arguments supporting either opinion, but I would personally be willing to test a couple of alternative interconnects, in order to see (hear) if they do make a difference and improve the treble roll-off that I have been experiencing since the amps upgrade. Another option, not mutually exclusive with interconnect cables, would be some valve-rolling.
Jez, you have obviously dug yourself into a hole which is rather difficult to climb out of. I'm not as qualified as you but there are more experienced engineers out there with good track records who are prepared to admit that just because they cannot explain something does not mean that there is no difference. Cables make a difference. Perhaps you should subject yourself to some blind testing
Indeed... Unfortunately his (reverse) expectation bias would prevent him from being in any way objective.
Like you say, there are plenty of audio engineers out there, many more experienced that Jez, who fully accept that cables make a difference (even if they can't 'prove' it) - and I suspect a few of them are sane, too! ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 16:11
Gentlemen, sorry to interfere in this exchange of arguments supporting either opinion, but I would personally be willing to test a couple of alternative interconnects, in order to see (hear) if they do make a difference and improve the treble roll-off that I have been experiencing since the amps upgrade. Another option, not mutually exclusive with interconnect cables, would be some valve-rolling.
Which will also make no difference to frequency response.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 16:11
I'll ignore Marco's baiting ;)
Gentlemen, sorry to interfere in this exchange of arguments supporting either opinion, but I would personally be willing to test a couple of alternative interconnects, in order to see (hear) if they do make a difference and improve the treble roll-off that I have been experiencing since the amps upgrade. Another option, not mutually exclusive with interconnect cables, would be some valve-rolling.
Both are/can be worthwhile.
Also should say that I don't think it is 'treble roll off' that is the issue here and partly why some might be suggesting that cables are not a factor. I think this is more your upper mids lacking resolution, i.e too soft and too far back in the sound. Snares and rim shots are always the giveaway for this. Pick a tune where the snares and rims should hit you between the eyes and see if they are lacking the impact you are used to. I'm suggesting that as I have been there myself, a change to 'more compatible' cables sorted the issue out.
I'll ignore Marco's baiting ;)
Baiting? Lol - you're the one calling folk insane who simply don't sign up to your (rather closed-minded) scientific belief system! :ner:
If you're going to dish it out, mate, then be prepared to take it back.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 16:46
Audiophillia is a strange affliction.... I put forward the theory, universally accepted other than by audiophiles, that the content of every electronic text book, university course, the science that got us to the moon and enabled the computers people are using.... is actually correct. That there is not in fact an unknown property to a simple piece of wire that evaded Faraday, Einstein, Ohm etc but not the genius of Russ Andrews or Peter Belt.... and it's me that's the insane one, the heretic, the one who's "swinging the lead"!!!???? I shake my head in disbelief and shout unto the heavens "yer couldn't make it up!!" :D
Both are/can be worthwhile.
Also should say that I don't think it is 'treble roll off' that is the issue here and partly why some might be suggesting that cables are not a factor. I think this is more your upper mids lacking resolution, i.e too soft and too far back in the sound. Snares and rim shots are always the giveaway for this. Pick a tune where the snares and rims should hit you between the eyes and see if they are lacking the impact you are used to. I'm suggesting that as I have been there myself, a change to 'more compatible' cables sorted the issue out.
Martin, how can I locate 'more compatible' cables apart from the well-known trial-and-error method? Do you think that I should focus on interconnects only or should I also consider speaker cables?
icehockeyboy
20-02-2016, 16:52
There is a reason why Van Den Hul are nicknamed Bland n Dull.
Neither NASA nor Einstein have explored hi-fidelity sound reproduction. And textbooks have been known to be wrong. Isaac Newton was wrong. And he was really smart. But science overtook him because it is not a fixed point of reference. For anything. Only mathamatics has proofs.
Can we discount the subjective experiences of millions of people just like that? As an open-minded skeptic I say no. The likelihood is that something is going on that requires further investigation to obtain a 'scientific' answer.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 17:04
Neither NASA nor Einstein have explored hi-fidelity sound reproduction. And textbooks have been known to be wrong. Isaac Newton was wrong. And he was really smart. But science overtook him because it is not a fixed point of reference. For anything. Only mathamatics has proofs.
Can we discount the subjective experiences of millions of people just like that? As an open-minded skeptic I say no. The likelihood is that something is going on that requires further investigation to obtain a 'scientific' answer.
The subjective belief of billions is that there is some sort of sky wizard that made the earth, sees all and hears all etc. Like Prof. Richard Dawkins I disagree with that to.... very strongly!
Ah! Dawkins is an amateur who preaches to the choir.
You can swap interconnects and listen for a difference. You can't do that test with the sky wizard. Not really comparable.
But if the sky wizard landed on the White House lawn and turned the Prez into a pumpkin you'd believe then. Just like people believe they hear a difference. It is a substantiated belief and therefore carries more weight.
Audiophillia is a strange affliction.... I put forward the theory, universally accepted other than by audiophiles, that the content of every electronic text book, university course, the science that got us to the moon and enabled the computers people are using.... is actually correct.
It is correct, but it currently doesn't have the answer to *everything* in the known universe, much as your cognitive dissonance dictates so. The problem is, you think that everything in audio is a 'done deal', when in actuality, it isn't.
I suggest that you read this, learn something new for a change, noting in particular paragraph 6, in relation to your attitude to that which exists outside of your personal acceptance, and take a good look in the mirror: http://www.simplypsychology.org/cognitive-dissonance.html
Marco.
Ah! Dawkins is an amateur who preaches to the choir.
You can swap interconnects and listen for a difference. You can't do that test with the sky wizard. Not really comparable.
But if the sky wizard landed on the White House lawn and turned the Prez into a pumpkin you'd believe then. Just like people believe they hear a difference. It is a substantiated belief and therefore carries more weight.
Even if it's not a substantiated belief, but only a perception, we should not forget that 'perception is reality' for most people. That's good enough for me in this particular case. Someone might argue that the treble is there, provided by my new amps, and it's my (wrong) perception that I cannot hear it. OK, even if so, I would like to improve/change that particular perception of mine... If it takes some new interconnects or new valves, I do not have any religious-type preconception of what the remedy should be.
Like Prof. Richard Dawkins I disagree with that to.... very strongly!
And that's your big problem: your arrogance wants to try and dictate to everyone else that they're wrong, simply because they don't possess *your mentality*, rather than simply respecting the fact that we're all different, and as such entitled to think the way *we* want to think, and believe what WE want to believe, minus any patronising judgement or belittling condescension.
Jez, we're getting to the stage now where enough is enough, and if you wish to remain here, you'll have to respect the fact that you're on a subjectivist forum, populated by people with a rather different (and no less incorrect) mindset to you. You're entitled to your opinion, by not when you're simultaneously disrespecting that of others.
So here are your options:
1) Remain on the forum to promote your wares, and appreciate the kindness you were shown in difficult times, to be permitted to trade here and try and earn a living.
2) Stay out of subjectivist-orientated discussions in future, *if* you're not able to respect the contrary views of others, without being condescending and insulting, and simply stick to promoting your wares.
3) Leave and take your rather patronising superiority elsewhere.
I would regret 3), but I'm afraid that using this forum as a vehicle to 'educate the loons as to the errors of their ways' (which is tantamount to what you're doing), can't continue, so the ball's in your court.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-02-2016, 18:07
And that's your big problem: your arrogance wants to try and dictate to everyone else that they're wrong, simply because they don't possess *your mentality*, rather than simply respecting the fact that we're all different, and as such entitled to think the way we want to think, minus any disrespectful condescension.
Jez, we're getting to the stage now where enough is enough, and if you wish to remain here, you'll have to respect the fact that you're on a subjectivist forum, populated by people with a rather different (and no less incorrect) mindset to you. You're entitled to your opinion, by not when you're simultaneously disrespecting that of others.
So here are your options:
1) Remain here to promote your wares, and appreciate the kindness you were shown in difficult times, to be permitted to trade and try and earn a living.
2) Stay out of subjectivist-orientated discussions, if you're not able to respect the contrary views of others, without being insulting, and simply stick to promoting your wares.
3) Leave and take your rather belittling and disrespectful 'views' elsewhere.
I would regret 3), but I'm afraid that using this forum as a vehicle to 'educate the loons as to the errors of their ways', can't go on, so the ball's in your court.
Marco.
I know we have been here before but I must say I am surprised and disappointed that you feel my sticking up for my views in a debate is not compatible with my presence on your web site. Those with the opposite view to mine, which obviously includes yourself, can argue their point as vehemently as they wish to and make it as unpleasant as they choose and that is ok.... but if I stick to my guns under the onslaught and give some back then that's not ok... I considered this no more than lively debate! Was it not you yourself in a an earlier post this morning who said to me "don't dish it out if you can't take it"? I digress....
As you well know I am grateful to you for, during a difficult time for me, giving me a place here to promote my wares and to chat with fellow enthusiasts. I didn't intend to cause you any offence Marco (and was surprised to see your post!) and therefore, whilst with some duress at the feeling that my perfectly validly held opinion is being censored, I agree to stay out of subjective debates :)
Frazeur1
20-02-2016, 18:15
I am more the lurker here and probably my input isnt of much use, but maybe it is just time to move on from the cable debate in this thread, and just try somehow to get back to the Croft issue at hand? Even though different cables may or may not help?
I'll get my hat now....Oh, and I must say this, even though I am more the lurker, I do enjoy the posts and each one of the members input. This is a fun place to be!
I know we have been here before but I must say I am surprised and disappointed that you feel my sticking up for my views in a debate is not compatible with my presence on your web site.
Jeez, you simply don't get it... The *only* thing that's being censored here (or incompatible), Jez, is your desire to simultaneously belittle the opposing views of others, whilst expressing your own perfectly legitimate ones.
I have no problem with the latter, ONLY the former!
Therefore you must learn to curb showing disdain towards those you think are 'wrong', and express your views here in such a way so as to prevent the above from happening. Clue: referring to people here as 'insane', who simply don't think they way you do, is NOT acceptable, nor is disrespecting anyone's religious beliefs.
Do remember that aside from being a daftee, I am also a proud and practising Christian! ;)
If you observe what I've said, showing appropriate consideration for others, then there will be no problems. I enjoy a bit of banter and debate with the best of them, but not when I feel that I'm being brow-beaten by unyielding and patronising arrogance.
Marco.
I am more the lurker here and probably my input isnt of much use, but maybe it is just time to move on from the cable debate in this thread, and just try somehow to get back to the Croft issue at hand? Even though different cables may or may not help?
I'll get my hat now....Oh, and I must say this, even though I am more the lurker, I do enjoy the posts and each one of the members input. This is a fun place to be!
I completely agree, Timothy! Indeed, I now *insist* on it. Therefore, any further off-topic comments will be deleted without further warning.
That includes any further reply from you, Jez. Simply take on board what I've said and move on, or if you wish to discuss what I've said further, take it to PM. Ta!
Marco.
Martin, how can I locate 'more compatible' cables apart from the well-known trial-and-error method? Do you think that I should focus on interconnects only or should I also consider speaker cables?
Sorry I missed this. The fact is there is no way to do it other than trial and error because, as you have seen, how interconnects affect the sound and even if they do are hotly debated subjects. If you were down the road from me instead of in Greece I would bring a few sets over and we would either solve the issue or at least eliminate the interconnects as a factor.
I completely agree, Timothy! Indeed, I now *insist* on it. Therefore, any further off-topic comments will be deleted without further warning.
That includes any further reply from you, Jez. Simply take on board what I've said and move on, or if you wish to discuss what I've said further, take it to PM. Ta!
Marco.
Thanks! I would be grateful, if I could receive some more feedback about the Croft amps treble roll-off. I see that there are many people in the forum who are either Croft owners or have quite extensive experience on Croft amps.
Indeed, it's a great forum to be a member of.
walpurgis
20-02-2016, 18:40
we should not forget that 'perception is reality' for most people.
Perhaps the perception of reality is the reality of all people. It's the only thing we have.
Sorry I missed this. The fact is there is no way to do it other than trial and error because, as you have seen, how interconnects affect the sound and even if they do are hotly debated subjects. If you were down the road from me instead of in Greece I would bring a few sets over and we would either solve the issue or at least eliminate the interconnects as a factor.
Martin, thanks for the intention anyways :)
walpurgis
20-02-2016, 18:48
And I perceive that Nordost cables give more vibrancy and life to music than Van Den Hul.
And maybe I perceive that cables with pure copper conductors sound less bright than silver plated copper examples.
In my book, anybody saying that differing cables have no influence on the sound, simply has not done the comparison. I used to be skeptical myself, but the listening confirms the changes, even if measurement has not. This applies to speaker cables, analogue interconnects and even digital interconnects believe it or not.
And I perceive that Nordost cables give more vibrancy and life to music than Van Den Hul.
And maybe I perceive that cables with pure copper conductors sound less bright than silver plated copper examples.
...
In my other Croft-based system, comprising SuperMicro II (brought to R-spec by Glenn) and Series7, I use Atlas Titan interconnects and Atlas Hyper 3 speaker cables. No problem with treble roll-off there. Would Atlas cables be a nice solution for my higher-spec Croft system, which I think is suffering from treble roll-off?
Thoughts?
I do not know whether they are worth the extra money (it depends on the value-for-money benchmarks of every person), but IMHO the R-models are very substantial amps, quite better than the lesser Croft models.
I do not know how the Micro25RS compares with the Micro25R and whether it's worth the extra money for the extra performance.
In any case, I also understand and believe that amps, like any other component in a hi-fi system, depend on the synergy with the other components, especially the speakers.
You're quite right of course. Some amps make it easier though - the Croft may not be one of 'em...
Can you swap the cables round and see what YOU think of the difference, if at all? Atlas were highly (dealer) profitable, but not much worse than Chord Co I remember.
My lasting memory of the 25RS is this... I was at hifi dave's place listening to a stock Micro 25 (I don't think it was the 'R' but I could be wrong). It was a cold damp day and the delivery man brought a pair of Crofty boxes, which Dave let me fall on with glee. Firstly, the separate box has a number of transformers, not just one and there's a Naim-style Burndy (from memory) from this to the preamp itself. Powered up freezing cold, the transformer box buzzed like angry bees for a while but I seem to remember it calming down a little as time went on (the buzz never went away though). The sound was just like the 25 and 25R at first, but while we were chatting - and I think I was setting up a turntable while chatting - I constantly kept being pulled back to the music, time and time again. It wasn't as if we were using a silly priced CD player either, probably one of the Rega's, either Apollo R or DAC, but the little things 'happening' in the background were so effortless and easy to follow. certainly nothing like as sweet and squishy as I remember the Mega Micro being, but I blame the Octal valves Glenn used for this.
I still argue that the VDH 103 interconnects aren't as hf-bland or plain 'dull' as the First and second interconnects were as I remember them. Whatever, I do hope you get sorted whatever you do :)
You're quite right of course. Some amps make it easier though - the Croft may not be one of 'em...
Can you swap the cables round and see what YOU think of the difference, if at all? Atlas were highly (dealer) profitable, but not much worse than Chord Co I remember.
So, if I understand correctly, you think Chord cables are better than Atlas or the other way round?
My lasting memory of the 25RS is this... I was at hifi dave's place listening to a stock Micro 25 (I don't think it was the 'R' but I could be wrong). It was a cold damp day and the delivery man brought a pair of Crofty boxes, which Dave let me fall on with glee. Firstly, the separate box has a number of transformers, not just one and there's a Naim-style Burndy (from memory) from this to the preamp itself. Powered up freezing cold, the transformer box buzzed like angry bees for a while but I seem to remember it calming down a little as time went on (the buzz never went away though). The sound was just like the 25 and 25R at first, but while we were chatting - and I think I was setting up a turntable while chatting - I constantly kept being pulled back to the music, time and time again. It wasn't as if we were using a silly priced CD player either, probably one of the Rega's, either Apollo R or DAC, but the little things 'happening' in the background were so effortless and easy to follow. certainly nothing like as sweet and squishy as I remember the Mega Micro being, but I blame the Octal valves Glenn used for this.
I still argue that the VDH 103 interconnects aren't as hf-bland or plain 'dull' as the First and second interconnects were as I remember them. Whatever, I do hope you get sorted whatever you do :)
I think that the R-spec Croft preamps are quite special. Even my old (1989) SuperMicro II, which has been recently upgraded by Croft to R-spec and should be slightly inferior to Micro25R, is still great! I bet the 25RS should be sublime. It's just a pity Glenn does not offer his amps with NOS valves, even if he would have to slightly bump up prices.
I know this doesn't match with the opinion of others here, but it's still my opinion. The fact that you can fine-tune the tone of a valve product with different valves means it's unlikely they'll ever be fully 'neutral' no matter how lovely the sound.. My Series 4PP preamp is better than it was new (Glenn suggested a few things which have helped), but it's so 'sweet and nice' when compared to a direct feed, I just can't go back at present. Modern production is far more truthful in my experience.
The Atlas cables are fine and probably better than any of the popular priced Chord Co ones. I just know how much dealers make out of them, that's all... When looking for cables, look online for people who sell them online at trade prices - that's why I suggested Mark Grant in the first instance - I'm sure he'd do a sale-or-return for you as would NVA, who were also mentioned (not by me ;)). Put it this way, take an HD1500 MG cable, or NVA SSC selling for say, £75 online. If sold through a dealer at the margins they make on accessories like this, these cables would be £200! Hope this helps.
walpurgis
20-02-2016, 21:29
In my other Croft-based system, comprising SuperMicro II (brought to R-spec by Glenn) and Series7, I use Atlas Titan interconnects and Atlas Hyper 3 speaker cables. No problem with treble roll-off there. Would Atlas cables be a nice solution for my higher-spec Croft system, which I think is suffering from treble roll-off?
Thoughts?
Can't help you with that. I've not used Atlas cables. But I'm sure many here have and can express an opinion.
And I perceive that Nordost cables give more vibrancy and life to music than Van Den Hul.
And maybe I perceive that cables with pure copper conductors sound less bright than silver plated copper examples.
In my book, anybody saying that differing cables have no influence on the sound, simply has not done the comparison. I used to be skeptical myself, but the listening confirms the changes, even if measurement has not. This applies to speaker cables, analogue interconnects and even digital interconnects believe it or not.
Especially digital interconnects: they have the hardest task IMO.
Floyddroid
21-02-2016, 15:32
So, Croft amps????????????
Floyddroid
21-02-2016, 15:33
:offtopic:
:offtopic:
In order to bring the topic in line again, it seems that I should consider to firstly check some alternative interconnect cables (source to preamp and preamp to power amp) and secondly check some NOS valves.
With respect to interconnects, some have proposed Mark Grant cables and another forum member Chord cables. I do not remember any other suggestion...
Before anything, try those Atlas ones you already have and report back
I suggested trying NVA SSC btw, for no other reason than I use them and they work for me.
Now off to do a little cable experiment of my own.
In order to bring the topic in line again, it seems that I should consider to firstly check some alternative interconnect cables (source to preamp and preamp to power amp) and secondly check some NOS valves.
With respect to interconnects, some have proposed Mark Grant cables and another forum member Chord cables. I do not remember any other suggestion...
Hi Panos, I am using Chord Chameleon VEE 3 interconnects and they sound superb with the Croft/ I have tried a good many others and these have performed the best for me. But if you want to consider some others try anything with silver RCA plugs and silver in the cables- does get a bit expensive but worth it.
As far as valves go - NOS Tesla ECC83 - 32,s, not 37,s in phono stage and regulation stage.
Hi Panos, I am using Chord Chameleon VEE 3 interconnects and they sound superb with the Croft/ I have tried a good many others and these have performed the best for me. But if you want to consider some others try anything with silver RCA plugs and silver in the cables- does get a bit expensive but worth it.
As far as valves go - NOS Tesla ECC83 - 32,s, not 37,s in phono stage and regulation stage.
James, I will definitely try out the Atlas Titan interconnects, which I have in my other system. If they provide an improvement, then I will have to see which interconnect I have to get then. Some people rave about the Mark Grant cables. I have no experience about them. Do you have any idea about the current cost of the Chameleons?
With respect to valves, Glenn has proposed to start from the 12BH7A in the line stage of the preamp and then proceed with the same (12BH7A) of the monoblocks.
James, I will definitely try out the Atlas Titan interconnects, which I have in my other system. If they provide an improvement, then I will have to see which interconnect I have to get then. Some people rave about the Mark Grant cables. I have no experience about them. Do you have any idea about the current cost of the Chameleons?
With respect to valves, Glenn has proposed to start from the 12BH7A in the line stage of the preamp and then proceed with the same (12BH7A) of the monoblocks.
Yes I have a 12BH7a in the line stage but my line stage has been modified - its is the same as the RS line stage. Try a NOS RCA 12BH7a in this position.
For the 7R power amps I would try GE JAN 5751 valves- they will brighten things up a bit.
Yes I have a 12BH7a in the line stage but my line stage has been modified - its is the same as the RS line stage. Try a NOS RCA 12BH7a in this position.
For the 7R power amps I would try GE JAN 5751 valves- they will brighten things up a bit.
Thanks for the suggestion about the NOS RCA 12BH7A, James. I understand there are several versions of that valve. Any specific preference? Any preferred provider?
With respect I am not yet familiar with the valves included in the 7R monoblocks. I am not sure whether ECC83 are included, so that I can replace them with a 5751. It would lower gain though, right?
Thanks for the suggestion about the NOS RCA 12BH7A, James. I understand there are several versions of that valve. Any specific preference? Any preferred provider?
With respect I am not yet familiar with the valves included in the 7R monoblocks. I am not sure whether ECC83 are included, so that I can replace them with a 5751. It would lower gain though, right?
The 5751 would lower the gain in the 7R so would the 12BH7A.
Not sure who to suggest for NOS 12BH7a - you will just have to look round the Net. GE are light and airy sounding but the RCAs seem to have a bit more grunt.
jandl100
21-02-2016, 21:39
Gentlemen, sorry to interfere in this exchange of arguments supporting either opinion, but I would personally be willing to test a couple of alternative interconnects, in order to see (hear) if they do make a difference and improve the treble roll-off that I have been experiencing since the amps upgrade.
There is a reason why Van Den Hul are nicknamed Bland n Dull.
Exactly this. ^
VdH 102 are dull and rolled off. No, really, they are.
Been there, done that - dozed off. :zzz:
Pretty much any other cable will show them up for what they do.
Do you have those thin free interconnects with red and white plugs that are often given away with gear?
Use them just to see.
Exactly this. ^
VdH 102 are dull and rolled off. No, really, they are.
Been there, done that - dozed off. :zzz:
Pretty much any other cable will show them up for what they do.
Do you have those thin free interconnects with red and white plugs that are often given away with gear?
Use them just to see.
OK, I tried the Atlas Titan interconnects, that I had in my other system. Although, there is some slightly better control, especially in the bass, however, I cannot say that the treble was enhanced to the point that I would consider the issue taken care off. :( The treble roll-off still exists. The amps are (very) powerful and composed. But there is an issue with the treble (or with my ears).
Now the next thing to try is some valve-rolling. Glenn suggested to look at the 12BH7A of the preamp first and then to the same valves, one in each monoblock. However, this may become a rather expensive journey.
Is there a simple way to test whether there is something wrong with the Micro25R? Returning it to Glenn for a check-up is the last option I would like to try.
Thanks in advance for the suggestions...
Yeah, give the ears time to adjust too...
Definitely would not be looking at how to "enhance" the treble - sit back and listen.
Well, going over the various responses in this thread that I started. A few minutes ago, I would swear that there was something wrong with my upgraded amps. I could hear minimal treble, at least compared to what I was used to from my previous Micro25+Series7.
Then I started playing the first CD of Dire Straits, which I know very, very well (must have listened to it just a few thousand times -)). There I could indeed listen to a fair amount of treble, perhaps slightly (just slightly) less than usual, but I could say that the amps were not rolling off treble, as was my initial impression with other pieces.
Perhaps I should bite the bullet and be patient for a couple of weeks, until the amps do go through their burn-in phase...
I am really curious whether the treble will improve. For the moment the bass is very deep (the deepest I have heard from my KEF LS50) and tight.
Well, going over the various responses in this thread that I started. A few minutes ago, I would swear that there was something wrong with my upgraded amps. I could hear minimal treble, at least compared to what I was used to from my previous Micro25+Series7.
Then I started playing the first CD of Dire Straits, which I know very, very well (must have listened to it just a few thousand times -)). There I could indeed listen to a fair amount of treble, perhaps slightly (just slightly) less than usual, but I could say that the amps were not rolling off treble, as was my initial impression with other pieces.
Perhaps I should bite the bullet and be patient for a couple of weeks, until the amps do go through their burn-in phase...
I am really curious whether the treble will improve. For the moment the bass is very deep (the deepest I have heard from my KEF LS50) and tight.
Well, no wonder! What was I expecting?
The amps need at least 20-30 mins from switching on, until they really start performing. The bass gets deeper (wow, how deep!), the soundstage wider, the instruments better separated and smoother. And yes, even the treble becomes slightly more pronounced. I tried this with some (Greek) bouzouki, for those who do not know what it is, you can image a bigger mandolin, producing high frequency notes.
The amps are getting much better (when warm), but I think that they are not quite there yet. Up to now, I had been listening to the amps without a proper warm-up, which may not have allowed a fair judgement.
Even my Sony SSneeds 30 mins to get really going well... dunno why, but they all do apparently
Even my Sony SSneeds 30 mins to get really going well... dunno why, but they all do apparently
They do, don't they? For a moment I could wonder whether it's our mind playing games, but then, the improvement is so significant, that we're not talking about minute differences here.
OK, the culprit has been located! :)
It was the 12BH7A tube of the line stage, make Sylvania. Following Glenn's advice, I replaced it with a 12AU7 (ECC82) and the treble re-surfaced again.
As a matter of fact, I have a few such NOS valves lying around, and I quickly tested all of them. The one that I think was the best match is a JAN 5963 (actually a Philips ECC802S). This gave a lot of transparency and the missing top-end. But this one requires also burn-in, as it has only had a few hours of operation.
Glenn said that the stock Sylvania 12BH7A may have been a defective one.
However, my quest is not over yet. Although now the treble has been restored, I have to admit the current sound balance is more extended, but actually flatter, not so textured and with less body than it was the 12BH7A. Furthermore, the soundstage is (slightly) less extended both in width and in depth. Perhaps, it may improve after a few hours of use.
So I guess, the ideal situation would be to find a 12BH7A but without the treble deficiency that the Sylvania presented. For a while I installed in the preamp a 12BH7A (Raytheon), which was included in one of the 7R monoblocks and I realized it worked much better than the Sylvania.
My short experience with the 12BH7A indicates that it is an interesting valve with more body and texture than the 12AU7 (or ECC82), probably sweeter (or more polite) but with less extension at the top, which some may like and others not. So what you choose depends on your personal preferences. Both seem to work in the Micro25R (at least mine).
I will continue my search for some good (not necessarily expensive) NOS 12BH7A valves, so if anyone has experience about them or a good source for such valves, please do not hesitate to contribute your insights.
Audio Advent
24-02-2016, 20:02
I tested 10 different interconnects using the same bit of music - in fact the fret buzz on angus young's guitar on the intro to 'Live Wire' (Re-master of the album 'High Voltage' on CD)
If you have to focus THAT hard to convince yourself of a difference on a specific bit of sound within a whole song.. then I'd suggest that it's more about what you're choosing to focus on rather than there being a real difference. "any idea exclusively occupying the mind turns into reality" to quote someone to do with auto-suggestion.
Any real differences should be easy to hear without such focus, else what's the point in bothering? It's outside the realm of normal listening and enjoyment.
Audio Advent
24-02-2016, 20:14
I bet if you measure frequency response, it won't be recessed. What I think you are hearing is more refinement and lower distortion at the top end. Thing is, distortion done right can be very engaging!
Exactly what I've been thinking reading this far into the thread.
I think the tell tale sign of this is that everything sounds more natural and more 3D whilst appearing also to be less lively.
The guy from Audio Physic used to say this about his designs (Gehard Jochim) as his designs always focused on a very neutral presentation. Potential customers/reviewers at first would complain that they lacked some kind of "liveliness" but once they'd spent time with them, they'd begin to appreciate the natural presentaion and much more lifelike sound. Other speakers that they'd previously been used to simply hadn't been as neutral and balanced. (this according to the designer of course...)
Similar things said about my Flare Audio in-ear monitors - those used to expensive, multi-driver, balanced armiture designs would note in the reviews how the Flares lacked treble zing and liveliness.. Yet in the same breath would sing praises about how lifelike and realistic the Flares sounded by comparison including in the treble.
So... it just goes to show that what is "correct" presentation appears to depend on what you listened to beforehand! But the real test IMO is one of how natural and real it sounds including spacialy.
Exactly what I've been thinking reading this far into the thread.
I think the tell tale sign of this is that everything sounds more natural and more 3D whilst appearing also to be less lively.
The guy from Audio Physic used to say this about his designs (Gehard Jochim) as his designs always focused on a very neutral presentation. Potential customers/reviewers at first would complain that they lacked some kind of "liveliness" but once they'd spent time with them, they'd begin to appreciate the natural presentaion and much more lifelike sound. Other speakers that they'd previously been used to simply hadn't been as neutral and balanced. (this according to the designer of course...)
Similar things said about my Flare Audio in-ear monitors - those used to expensive, multi-driver, balanced armiture designs would note in the reviews how the Flares lacked treble zing and liveliness.. Yet in the same breath would sing praises about how lifelike and realistic the Flares sounded by comparison including in the treble.
So... it just goes to show that what is "correct" presentation appears to depend on what you listened to beforehand! But the real test IMO is one of how natural and real it sounds including spacialy.
Sam, I see where you are coming from. I try to be as objective and as open-minded I can be. I cannot but admit the significant improvements that the new amps have yielded in comparison to the previous setup. However, I could not disregard the fact that I could hear almost no treble at all. If I had to guess, I would say that frequencies above 5-7kHz were missing (that's a heuristic estimation, no measurement to support it).
But then, I made another experiment. I took the 12BH7A valve (Raytheon) included in one of the mono blocks and with it I replaced the Sylvania 12BH7A of the preamp's line stage. Immediately the treble was restored. Not quite as much as with a 12AU7 valve, but clearly and definitely more than with the Sylvania. And the rest of the good qualities of the 12BH7A, such as 3d-imaging, spaciousness, composed character, etc. were retained. That was actually proof for me that the Sylvania valve must have been a defective component.
Audio Advent
24-02-2016, 20:44
Couldn't that also be another form of expectation bias? You're predisposed NOT to expect any difference, simply because your scientific bias dictates so...
Oh man! What's all this about "scientific bias"? It comes across as some kind of anti-science rubbish..
A person may form a bias from their knowledge of science but those biases are down to the individual, human flaws and have nothing to do with science or scientific method!
Science necessarily involves a full awareness of confirmation bias, cognitive bias and people go to great and ingenious lengths to try to eliminate it in experiments.
That said, there is only so many times science has to demonstrate a thing - after that point there has to be some very strong new evidence to show it was wrong. Otherwise we'd all be stuck in groundhog day re-inventing the wheel every generation! In Jez's world he has reached that point with cables and has had to move on! Sounds fair enough to me.
Audio Advent
24-02-2016, 20:48
Sam, I see where you are coming from. I try to be as objective and as open-minded I can be. I cannot but admit the significant improvements that the new amps have yielded in comparison to the previous setup. However, I could not disregard the fact that I could hear almost no treble at all. If I had to guess, I would say that frequencies above 5-7kHz were missing (that's a heuristic estimation, no measurement to support it).
But then, I made another experiment. I took the 12BH7A valve (Raytheon) included in one of the mono blocks and with it I replaced the Sylvania 12BH7A of the preamp's line stage. Immediately the treble was restored. Not quite as much as with a 12AU7 valve, but clearly and definitely more than with the Sylvania. And the rest of the good qualities of the 12BH7A, such as 3d-imaging, spaciousness, composed character, etc. were retained. That was actually proof for me that the Sylvania valve must have been a defective component.
Thanks for the summary - does sound like you've got somewhere with this. I am/was only on page 4 of the thread when I responded to the post.
As with all descriptions of our senses, it's difficult to portray in words what you were hearing.. Sounds like it was a more marked lack of treble than was being discussed by others at the beginning of the thread!
Audio Advent
24-02-2016, 20:54
OK, the culprit has been located! :)
It was the 12BH7A tube of the line stage, make Sylvania. Following Glenn's advice, I replaced it with a 12AU7 (ECC82) and the treble re-surfaced again.
As a matter of fact, I have a few such NOS valves lying around, and I quickly tested all of them. The one that I think was the best match is a JAN 5963 (actually a Philips ECC802S). This gave a lot of transparency and the missing top-end. But this one requires also burn-in, as it has only had a few hours of operation.
Glenn said that the stock Sylvania 12BH7A may have been a defective one.
However, my quest is not over yet. Although now the treble has been restored, I have to admit the current sound balance is more extended, but actually flatter, not so textured and with less body than it was the 12BH7A. Furthermore, the soundstage is (slightly) less extended both in width and in depth. Perhaps, it may improve after a few hours of use.
So I guess, the ideal situation would be to find a 12BH7A but without the treble deficiency that the Sylvania presented. For a while I installed in the preamp a 12BH7A (Raytheon), which was included in one of the 7R monoblocks and I realized it worked much better than the Sylvania.
My short experience with the 12BH7A indicates that it is an interesting valve with more body and texture than the 12AU7 (or ECC82), probably sweeter (or more polite) but with less extension at the top, which some may like and others not. So what you choose depends on your personal preferences. Both seem to work in the Micro25R (at least mine).
I will continue my search for some good (not necessarily expensive) NOS 12BH7A valves, so if anyone has experience about them or a good source for such valves, please do not hesitate to contribute your insights.
So many variables! That's why I stay clear of valve pre-amps. Not only are you dealing with the design but then there are a million combinations of valves working with that design and how well each of those valves are performing.. How do you know when the limit is hit with the valve rolling or the design and you'd be better with a different preamp with the same valves? :doh: :lol:
Solid state for me these days..
In Jez's world he has reached that point with cables and has had to move on! Sounds fair enough to me.
That may well be true, as I can't get inside Jez's head to prove otherwise.
However, we'll simply have to agree to disagree on the rest. I firmly believe that, through our respective biases, we can be just as much predisposed to not wanting to hear differences, as *wanting* to hear them. It has to cut both ways.
Marco.
So many variables! That's why I stay clear of valve pre-amps. Not only are you dealing with the design but then there are a million combinations of valves working with that design and how well each of those valves are performing.. How do you know when the limit is hit with the valve rolling or the design and you'd be better with a different preamp with the same valves? :doh: :lol:
Solid state for me these days..
That's your choice, but it doesn't have to be that complicated. I can't comment on Panos' situation, but I've been using valve equipment for many years, and have rarely had an issue. You can make using it as simple or as complicated as you like.
Tube-rolling is fun, and often able to effect considerable improvements, but you need to know what you're trying to achieve, and when to stop once you're there! ;)
Marco.
Frazeur1
24-02-2016, 22:59
Good to hear that maybe a tube issue Panos. I watch all this with interest as the Croft "R" series interest me a lot. Of course hearing them in system is proof of the pudding, we shall see maybe soon. At any rate, enjoy them and your music!
If you have to focus THAT hard to convince yourself of a difference on a specific bit of sound within a whole song.. then I'd suggest that it's more about what you're choosing to focus on rather than there being a real difference. "any idea exclusively occupying the mind turns into reality" to quote someone to do with auto-suggestion.
Any real differences should be easy to hear without such focus, else what's the point in bothering? It's outside the realm of normal listening and enjoyment.
Well it was supposed to be a cable test. How am I not going to be listening with focus? I actually started with normal listening, playing whole albums of which the AC/DC was one. I could hear differences, but it was taking too long. I noticed by accident that the differences were most pronounced and most obvious with that 30 second 'clip' of sound. That enabled me to crack through the test a lot faster and reach the same conclusion as to which cable was doing it the best.
Interconnect cables are usually only subtly different, if they are different at all. If you don't think subtle differences matter in terms of long term listening enjoyment then you are probably in the wrong hobby.
On a wider note, good to see the o/p has found the root of his problem - we get there in the end!
Well it was supposed to be a cable test. How am I not going to be listening with focus? I actually started with normal listening, playing whole albums of which the AC/DC was one. I could hear differences, but it was taking too long. I noticed by accident that the differences were most pronounced and most obvious with that 30 second 'clip' of sound. That enabled me to crack through the test a lot faster and reach the same conclusion as to which cable was doing it the best.
Interconnect cables are usually only subtly different, if they are different at all. If you don't think subtle differences matter in terms of long term listening enjoyment then you are probably in the wrong hobby.
On a wider note, good to see the o/p has found the root of his problem - we get there in the end!
I also agree that the treble roll-off issue was so obvious and dominating that could not be improved with a change of interconnects. Now I have to find a NOS valve for the line stage, so that I can enjoy the pleasing characteristics of the 12BH7A valve but without the treble roll-off.
Good to hear that maybe a tube issue Panos. I watch all this with interest as the Croft "R" series interest me a lot. Of course hearing them in system is proof of the pudding, we shall see maybe soon. At any rate, enjoy them and your music!
Thanks, Timothy.
Yes, I was lucky enough to have a 12AU7 valve to replace the 12BH7A with. It was a relief to locate the problem. However, aside of the problem, the 12BH7A sounds like a very interesting valve, more "mature" than the 12AU7.
All the best with your search. The Micro25R is very rewarding preamp IMHO.
Glad you got things sorted. :)
Glad you got things sorted. :)
Yes, indeed. But the search now continues for the 'right' 12BH7A valve to replace my faulty(?) Sylvania with green lettering. I have started a new thread for this in AoS.
Yes, indeed. But the search now continues for the 'right' 12BH7A valve to replace my faulty(?) Sylvania with green lettering. I have started a new thread for this in AoS.
Ah the joys of valves. ;)
Martyn Miles
02-03-2016, 21:29
Hi,
I have recently upgraded my Croft amps, driving KEF LS50 speakers, as follows:
Croft Micro25 -> Micro25R
Croft Series7 -> Series7R monoblocks
Although there have been definite improvements in the sound, such as a wider soundstage, more precise imaging, smoother voices, etc., I have also the impression has become darker, i.e. there seems to be a roll-off of higher frequencies.
I have been burning-in the amps for approx. two days (20+ hours) and I wonder whether things will improve after a while. Glenn claims that the amps will sound best after 2-3 weeks.
Any feedback from people who may have similar Croft amps?
How could I enhance the treble?
Thanks.
I have only just found this thread, and I'm rather intrigued by the idea
of an amplifier sounding 'dark'.
One of my concerns with Audio Forums is the use of vague terminology,
which really doesn't address what people are trying to convey.
I have only just found this thread, and I'm rather intrigued by the idea
of an amplifier sounding 'dark'.
One of my concerns with Audio Forums is the use of vague terminology,
which really doesn't address what people are trying to convey.
Indeed, the term 'dark' is rather obscure and ambiguous, but my intention was to describe the lack treble roll-off, which came across as lack of detail...
Muffled
Unfortunately, English not being my native language, does not allow me to use its nuances in the most accurate manner. :)
Unfortunately, English not being my native language, does not allow me to use its nuances in the most accurate manner. :)
If i could converse in a foreign language as well as you i would be very happy
to the O.P.,
Panos, I've just read through your thread about the pilgrimage regarding your not-so-happy experiences so far with your new Croft set-up, and no one seems to have advised you to swap the polarity of your speaker cables at the amp end> TMBK and IME Croft amps tend to invert phase - and all you've said about the treble (and other, related) stuff sounds exactly as when the speakers are connected the wrong way, i.e. with inverted phase, to the amp. how about giving it a go, I wonder, man? :rolleyes:
to the O.P.,
Panos, I've just read through your thread about the pilgrimage regarding your not-so-happy experiences so far with your new Croft set-up, and no one seems to have advised you to swap the polarity of your speaker cables at the amp end> TMBK and IME Croft amps tend to invert phase - and all you've said about the treble (and other, related) stuff sounds exactly as when the speakers are connected the wrong way, i.e. with inverted phase, to the amp. how about giving it a go, I wonder, man? :rolleyes:
Thanks for the advice, Attila. Yes, I am aware the Croft amps do tend to invert polarity. But both the preamp and the power amps invert polarity, so at the end, polarity is correct again (the two inversions cancel themselves out).
TBoMK, phase inversion is expressed as reduced bass and perhaps no so clear focus, usually not as treble roll-off. My problem was not bass or anything else, just treble roll-off.
Thanks anyway.
with your response taken duly I wonder if you've tried to swap the speakers' polarity at the amp end, Panos? sometimes magic happens against well-established 'knowledge' (or summat)...
with your response taken duly I wonder if you've tried to swap the speakers' polarity at the amp end, Panos? sometimes magic happens against well-established 'knowledge' (or summat)...
As a matter of fact, I have not tried to reverse the polarity of the speakers. I will do that next week (because these days I am not where the system is) and I will report back any findings. It's an easy test and there is nothing to hurt. Thanks for the advice.
P.
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