View Full Version : MM Cartridge less clinical sounding than a 2m black?
Zoidburg
16-02-2016, 12:15
Hi folks,
I've had my 2m black on for a good few weeks now and whilst I can appreciate that it is a fabulous cart (certainly head an shoulders above anything I've had before) I am beginning to think sometimes that its not quite what I want in terms of sound. Its very clinical and digital like at times and I think maybe I would favour something slightly less so, something with a touch more warmth to it.
So if I was looking to change cartridge again what should I be considering.........? I don't mind buying 2nd hand, though can only spend what I sell the 2MB for (£280 ish??) and has to be MM only due to my phono stage.
I hear mention of Nagoakas but have never listened to one, I liked my Goldring 2500 a lot and part of me wishes I had just replaced the stylus on it now rather than going down the 2MB route:doh:
But anyway id appreciate any ideas you guys have before I decide where / if I go to next.
cheers
Ben
hifi_dave
16-02-2016, 12:19
The 2M range are a bit thin sounding, so the Nagaoka and Goldring models you mention, with their more full bodied tone, might well suit.
Others to consider are the Rega Exact and some of the vintage models which Marco mentions from time to time.
The AT150MLX or a Nagaoka MP-150 or MP-200
The MP-150 I have for sale would probably do the trick and leave you cash to spend on Vinyl. :eyebrows:
Another option is the SAE1000 in either E or LT flavours. A nice sounding HOMC.
If you can find one I'd suggest a Reson Reca - a Goldring that's been tweaked. I had one - sounded very nice (likely nicest of all my MM's apart from my AKG P8ES supernova) but in the end the finer clarity and detail of "going MC" won me over
Steve
I'd recommend the Audio Note IQ2 or 3.
I had the IQ3 at the same time as a 2M Black, and kept the AN. Better tone, body, and integration, but still had all of the detail of the Black, without throwing it in your face in that clinical / etched way. Wish I still had it ... super mm cartridge.
The 2M range are a bit thin sounding
Accurate sounding; I would say.
Well Ben, if you can find a Shure M55e cartridge body and stick a Jico SAS stylus in it you will have something that approaches the 2m Black but without the clinical etched sound.
It will cost you about £180.
I have both cartridges but it is the M55e/Jico SAS the one that I prefer as it marries the body and musicality of the M55e with the precision and insight of the Jico SAS stylus.
Zoidburg
16-02-2016, 13:11
Thanks for all the replies so far dudes. Certainly giving me some food for thought.......
Zoidburg
16-02-2016, 13:23
Well Ben, if you can find a Shure M55e cartridge body and stick a Jico SAS stylus in it you will have something that approaches the 2m Black but without the clinical etched sound.
It will cost you about £180.
I have both cartridges but it is the M55e/Jico SAS the one that I prefer as it marries the body and musicality of the M55e with the precision and insight of the Jico SAS stylus.
That's the description I was looking for!
ellensdad
16-02-2016, 13:45
Three vintage options that fit your description:
JVC Z1 w/ Jico SAS - The SAS brings out the absolute best of this cartridge. It combines speed and detail with a weight and richness that I just love. Oh, and the dynamics are startling. A body can usually be had for about $50.
A&R P77 w/ Jico SAS - Great bass, sweet & weighty mids, nice highs. Very musical cartridge.
Ortofon M20FL - Organic, organic, organic. Needs around 400pF to be at its best but its best is quite good.
Search Audiogon Forums for these cartridges for lots of info and much better descriptions than I've given here.
Ali Tait
16-02-2016, 13:56
Have you compared an M20FL jico to the original stylus?
Zoidburg
16-02-2016, 14:11
Id probably like a newer "plug in and play" option rather than having to buy a separate body and stylus tbh.
ellensdad
16-02-2016, 14:46
Have you compared an M20FL jico to the original stylus?
I haven't. Fortunately there's a few NOS stylus still available, expensive though.
ellensdad
16-02-2016, 14:49
Id probably like a newer "plug in and play" option rather than having to buy a separate body and stylus tbh.
Nagoaka MP500 then.
rubber duck
16-02-2016, 15:11
I may be selling my Nagaoka MP500, brand new, boxed, unused. PM if interested.
Accurate sounding; I would say.
Sorry, I beg to differ. That is if we're talking about 'accurate', in terms of what real instruments and voices sound like, as opposed to how they are purported to do on paper... ;)
Dave's spot on about the 2M range: it's all rather sterile and hi-fi sounding.
Ben, go for a Nagaoka, or as Peter says, an AN, and you won't look back. Or if you fancy going the vintage route, then track down a Shure M55E, and fit a Jico SAS stylus to it.. Btw, how did you get on with that SMR-Tech record clamp? You never did say.....
Marco.
RobbieGong
16-02-2016, 16:49
Sorry, I beg to differ. That is if we're talking about 'accurate', in terms of what real instruments and voices sound like, as opposed to how they are purported to do on paper... ;)
Dave's spot on about the 2M range: it's all rather sterile and hi-fi sounding.
Ben, go for a Nagaoka, or as Peter says, an AN, and you won't look back. Or if you fancy going the vintage route, then track down a Shure M55E, and fit a Jico SAS stylus to it.. Btw, how did you get on with that SMR-Tech record clamp? You never did say.....
Marco.
I beg to differ too and for fear of going round in circles. Had the Blue but my experience of the Black in particular was definately not sterile when set up properly. What I mean by properly is when it's stylus profile is comfortably and correctly set for want of better discriptive. I also found its accuracy and presentation of texture timbre and vocals first rate as expressed in an abundance of places on the net, customers, reviews, forums and so on. It is well known that set up is critical with the Black otherwise it will display negatives traits such as harshness, clinical etc . It doesn't help IME that it can be a PITA to set up and get right. Again, each user will have their own experience. I know the ones I've had with it and why.
Zoidburg
16-02-2016, 16:53
Sorry, I beg to differ. That is if we're talking about 'accurate', in terms of what real instruments and voices sound like, as opposed to how they are purported to do on paper... ;)
Dave's spot on about the 2M range: it's all rather sterile and hi-fi sounding.
Ben, go for a Nagaoka, or as Peter says, an AN, and you won't look back. Or if you fancy going the vintage route, then track down a Shure M55E, and fit a Jico SAS stylus to it.. Btw, how did you get on with that SMR-Tech record clamp? You never did say.....
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Thanks for the imput mate, im going to have a good read up on the Nags and the AN's this evening ( the nags seems to be a bit more prevelent on the 2nd hand market i think so that may sway it)
As for the SRM clamp I have to be honest and say i cant tell any real difference with it on or off.
Ali Tait
16-02-2016, 17:01
I haven't. Fortunately there's a few NOS stylus still available, expensive though.
Bought one from here, seemed a good price-
http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=730
Arkless Electronics
16-02-2016, 17:04
2M Black is a really good MM cart IMHO. One of the best. It can work better with slightly non standard loading according to tests elsewhere on the web. About 33K and very low capacitance from memory makes for a flatter top end with no rise and then dip at high frequencies. I supplied a few Arkless 640P's with loading set like this for 2M's.
2M Black is a really good MM cart IMHO. One of the best. It can work better with slightly non standard loading according to tests elsewhere on the web. About 33K and very low capacitance from memory makes for a flatter top end with no rise and then dip at high frequencies. I supplied a few Arkless 640P's with loading set like this for 2M's.
That seems good advice, and some graphs here (though you need to be logged in there to actually see them..) http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ortofon-2m-black-frequency-response-charts.312499/ which seem to indicate low capacitance and 33k loading is the way to go for flat response. If it were me I'd try it with that kind of loading first before looking elsewhere. If your phono stage has no loading options for resistive loading, the easiest way to try is get a pair of 'y-plugs' or -cables, 2xjack to plug - insert the y-plugs to your phono stage inputs, then on each plug insert thet TT-cable + a special plug with 100k resistor across the signal and ground on the other jack, this will bring the loading down to 32k assuming your phono stage is standard 47k. Here's a better and more thorough explanation: http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/loading/
If you're wanting something new and plug and play, I think you'll be happiest with the Nagaoka MP-500. I have to admit Dave's suggestion of the Rega Exact is interesting. When I've heard it at my local dealer I've thought it was a great sounding cart, very dynamic and musical. I've never heard one though that wasn't mounted to a Rega arm. It's pretty high output but your Firebottle can handle high output.
The best prices on Nagaoka carts is normally here, I bought my MP-200 from him with no issues:
http://www.audiokazu.com/#!price-list/c1gfn
This looks like a great deal on the Exact:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Exact-2-MM-Cartridge-Made-in-United-Kingdom-/281781942228
daytona600
16-02-2016, 19:51
2M Black is a really good MM cart IMHO. One of the best. It can work better with slightly non standard loading according to tests elsewhere on the web. About 33K and very low capacitance from memory makes for a flatter top end with no rise and then dip at high frequencies. I supplied a few Arkless 640P's with loading set like this for 2M's.
Agree with Jez
2M Black is a fab sounding cartridge but needs a good phono stage ideally with Adjustable loading ( like jezs 640p )
also get the VTA dialled in as Shibatas need to be correctly set up
RobbieGong
16-02-2016, 20:48
Agree with Jez
2M Black is a fab sounding cartridge but needs a good phono stage ideally with Adjustable loading ( like jezs 640p )
also get the VTA dialled in as Shibatas need to be correctly set up
Amen and critical, if you really want to hear a 2MB express it's wonderful attributes and then know what all the fuss is about for yourself. It's a bit like wanting to really hear what a Denon DL 103 is about without applying the required ample / adequate headshell mass.
Idlewithnodrive
16-02-2016, 22:26
I'd recommend the Audio Note IQ2 or 3.
I had the IQ3 at the same time as a 2M Black, and kept the AN. Better tone, body, and integration, but still had all of the detail of the Black, without throwing it in your face in that clinical / etched way. Wish I still had it ... super mm cartridge.
Exactly what I did :)
narabdela
17-02-2016, 08:54
As suggested by several previous posters...Nagaoka or vintage Shure if you're looking for a more warm and musical, non-clinical sound.
hifi_dave
17-02-2016, 10:08
The Rega Exact is £255 in the UK.
Popped the M55e with Jico SAS back on the VPI rig last night to check it out after a year off from using this combination.
I remember this combo being rather special and wondered if it sounded as good still or was thinking if it through rose tinted specs/ears? Nope, the magic is still there! I painstakingly set the M55e up and was surprised it rather liked the VTA position I had used for the 2M. Don't forget this killer combination only cost me £180 to nail together and wow is it good.
The Jico SAS stylus has the original boron pipe with micro ridge diamond profile and is tiny. Magnifying glass and best specs had to be used throughout the set up. Tracking 1.5g and overhang was set using the excellent VPI tool so I could get it bang on. I must admit the cantilever looks a bit odd in the M55e cartridge body but the fit is good although the overhang position is way different to a standard M55e stylus. Luckily I had no compliance issues so it suits a medium mass tonearm, the one I am using is the VPI 9t which is a unipivot and damped internally.
Sound is sweet, detailed and portrays vocals and instruments superbly, as good as the 2M Black which is my usual daily runner. Bass is better defined and tighter than the 2M which is saying something but the overall sound is less clinical and there is much less surface and groove noise. The only area it looses out to the 2M is air and soundstage presence. I would say the 2M has more oomph but it probably has a higher output to the M55e.
Considering the M55e cartridge is 40 years old this is quite amazing. I am going to run this cartridge for some time now and will pop in the NOS N55 stylus sometime to listen to how the original M55e should have sounded and will write up my thoughts, but in the meantime I am going enjoy this wonderful combination.:cool:
Nagoaka MP500 then.
Ben, the Nag MP 500 is a very, very accomplished cartridge. My experience of it was of a very forward sounding cart and a full on, party animal. Great tracker, good deep bass, plenty of sparkle that grabbed me from the start and made me think I'd finally found the cartridge I was going to live with.
But ultimately another "careful what you wish for" moment. It was just too much for the long run and eventually bought by another member on here (jamie123, IIRC). It'd be interesting to know what others think.
If you want a cart to liven up your system then this could be it. If your system already gives you plenty of drive and energy then the 500 may just push it over the edge. But it's all about synergy.
I've tried quite a few cart's over the years, some running into the four figure cost bracket. And there's one I keep coming back to - the SAE 1000LT. A high output MC (2.5mV) that needs to be used with the MM input side of a phono.
No longer made but Thakker seem to keep finding them from somewhere. https://www.thakker.eu/en/pickup/sae-1000lt-cartridge/a-5171/
Cost new at just over 300 quid is a bit more than you want to pay but they do come up used from time to time.
Three vintage options that fit your description:
JVC Z1 w/ Jico SAS - The SAS brings out the absolute best of this cartridge. It combines speed and detail with a weight and richness that I just love. Oh, and the dynamics are startling. A body can usually be had for about $50.
A&R P77 w/ Jico SAS - Great bass, sweet & weighty mids, nice highs. Very musical cartridge.
Ortofon M20FL - Organic, organic, organic. Needs around 400pF to be at its best but its best is quite good.
Search Audiogon Forums for these cartridges for lots of info and much better descriptions than I've given here.
You lot certainly like your 'thumpers,' don't you :D
Firstly, what on earth has been 'modified' in the Tron phono stage? Graham Tricker is a damned good valve product designer and the only criticism I could ever make is that his products are priced out of the UK market to sell in the far eastern markets where status is conferred by price tag, this depriving many of the pleasure of using said products. I'd seriously try something un-modified to confirm your feelings before wholesale cartridge changes. Taking the arm height down a tad may just be enough to subtly adjust the balance, or maybe even asking Graham what valves he suggests to do a similar thing?
I have a M20FL Super/Cap210 and it ain't arf ripe compared to the more delicate M20E Super which uses the same body. I sold many P77's too and have two here with damaged cantilevers, one with an Mg outer body, but I can't play them. Definitely not a particularly clear sound by today's standards and with an hf suckout which is quite audible, but I believe ESCo still make original styli for them.
Records made 'commercially' don't always have much bass weight cut into them as it takes up too much 'land' on the vinyl shortening playing time, the upper mids emphasised quite often in an attempt to get over older cartridge designs dulling it all. I'd try a different phono stage just to make sure though.
paulf-2007
13-01-2018, 10:55
Ben, the Nag MP 500 is a very, very accomplished cartridge. My experience of it was of a very forward sounding cart and a full on, party animal. Great tracker, good deep bass, plenty of sparkle that grabbed me from the start and made me think I'd finally found the cartridge I was going to live with.
But ultimately another "careful what you wish for" moment. It was just too much for the long run and eventually bought by another member on here (jamie123, IIRC). It'd be interesting to know what others think.
If you want a cart to liven up your system then this could be it. If your system already gives you plenty of drive and energy then the 500 may just push it over the edge. But it's all about synergy.
I've tried quite a few cart's over the years, some running into the four figure cost bracket. And there's one I keep coming back to - the SAE 1000LT. A high output MC (2.5mV) that needs to be used with the MM input side of a phono.
No longer made but Thakker seem to keep finding them from somewhere. https://www.thakker.eu/en/pickup/sae-1000lt-cartridge/a-5171/
Cost new at just over 300 quid is a bit more than you want to pay but they do come up used from time to time.
I have an SAE 1000LT in my office set up. It was my main cart for some time until I tried some low output mc's. Now gone back to mm and moving iron. The SAE is a very good cart, made by Coral.
RobbieGong
13-01-2018, 11:03
I have an SAE 1000LT in my office set up. It was my main cart for some time until I tried some low output mc's. Now gone back to mm and moving iron. The SAE is a very good cart, made by Coral.
Hi Paul, Was / Is there something about mc's you found missing that you get or like with mm's and mi's ?
You lot certainly like your 'thumpers,' don't you :D
Firstly, what on earth has been 'modified' in the Tron phono stage? Graham Tricker is a damned good valve product designer and the only criticism I could ever make is that his products are priced out of the UK market to sell in the far eastern markets where status is conferred by price tag, this depriving many of the pleasure of using said products. I'd seriously try something un-modified to confirm your feelings before wholesale cartridge changes. Taking the arm height down a tad may just be enough to subtly adjust the balance, or maybe even asking Graham what valves he suggests to do a similar thing?
I have a M20FL Super/Cap210 and it ain't arf ripe compared to the more delicate M20E Super which uses the same body. I sold many P77's too and have two here with damaged cantilevers, one with an Mg outer body, but I can't play them. Definitely not a particularly clear sound by today's standards and with an hf suckout which is quite audible, but I believe ESCo still make original styli for them.
Records made 'commercially' don't always have much bass weight cut into them as it takes up too much 'land' on the vinyl shortening playing time, the upper mids emphasised quite often in an attempt to get over older cartridge designs dulling it all. I'd try a different phono stage just to make sure though.
What's a "thumper"?
The Firebottle modded Tron has its own thread if you'd like to know more:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?51418-Tron-Convergence-with-Firebottle-modifications&highlight=Firebottle+tron
Personally, I can't see why anybody's products should be exempt from modding. People hear differently and designers bring different experiences and thinking to the table. Surely variety is good and mods can drive improvements. Look at Teddy Pardo and others influencing Naim PSU's. Lots more examples too, but nothing to do with cartridges, so I'll say no more here ;)
paulf-2007
13-01-2018, 12:20
Hi Paul, Was / Is there something about mc's you found missing that you get or like with mm's and mi's ?
Find them a bit laid back. Some seem to like that presentation, people I know with mega bucks set ups seem to like it that way, maybe it's more accurate but I don't think so. Koetsu', AN Io gold etc, meh.
I found a Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico says stylus that gives me what I want without all the problems of step up and phono stage matching, it's an expensive mine field. I am now enjoying a Decca C4E that is about as far away from a low output MC as I can get. Of course the differences are very small in reality and I'm just enjoying music and not listening for something unobtanium.
To me, a thumper cartridge is one where the lower mids downwards have a full-on 'thumping' quality which isn't particularly tuneful or light-footed. Terrible description, but to me different from a more 'organic' bass presentation which the ear can find attractive. I love the Ortofon M20E Super, which is a 1g tracker with great musicality and delicacy, but find the FL stylus a bit harder going, the bass thickening a bit into a bit of a 'thump.' Incidentally, the descended 2M Bronze doesn't seem to do this on the small amount of listening I've given it.
Actually, a 2M Bronze stylus might possible put a little more 'funk' in the sound rather than colouring it darker, if you see what I mean.
P.S. Modding for more 'detail' often brings up listener fatigue or upsets the natural musical balance. I haven't heard the 'cheaper' Tron, but loved the 'Seven' just as it is and have been intermittently acquainted with Graham Tricker for many years... Of course, the hugely supplied two-box stage I have here has all the bass power and musicality you'd need from bottom to top and without details being etched in a 'HiFi' sense.
paulf-2007
13-01-2018, 12:34
Three vintage options that fit your description:
JVC Z1 w/ Jico SAS - The SAS brings out the absolute best of this cartridge. It combines speed and detail with a weight and richness that I just love. Oh, and the dynamics are startling. A body can usually be had for about $50.
A&R P77 w/ Jico SAS - Great bass, sweet & weighty mids, nice highs. Very musical cartridge.
Ortofon M20FL - Organic, organic, organic. Needs around 400pF to be at its best but its best is quite good.
Search Audiogon Forums for these cartridges for lots of info and much better descriptions than I've given here.
Ok this post is recent history but only just seen it. I have a Jvc Z1s and Victor Z4s, could be the other way round but they are one and the same. I think the Z1s was on a turntable I bought and the Z4s was a freebie with my Stax arm. Both sound reasonable but wasn't aware of a jico stylus for them and cannot find one now.
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