View Full Version : Denon 103M - What should I expect?
Wakefield Turntables
14-02-2016, 20:23
Bought one of these on a Whim, what should I expect? Discuss.com please.... :)
If you have done your homework (just type it into Google), you should know exactly what to expect. So why don't you try the cartridge out and then tell us.
Wakefield Turntables
14-02-2016, 20:45
If you have done your homework (just type it into Google), you should know exactly what to expect. So why don't you try the cartridge out and then tell us.
Im afraid I didnt bother Barry and just bought. Incidently I'm now in the DECCA club. :)
Wow... Andy, you've just bought *the* best DL-103 every made! Where did you get it from and how much did you pay? :)
Oh, and we need pics!
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
15-02-2016, 08:32
Wow... Andy, you've just bought *the* best DL-103 every made! Where did you get it from and how much did you pay? :)
Oh, and we need pics!
Marco.
are you being serious or doing a bit of piss taking?!?
No, I'm being serious! I had one in the 80s and it's a STUNNING cartridge - arguably the best 103 ever made. It would definitely give my DL-S1 a run for its money.
It is a 103M you've got, isn't it - silver body in the middle and black either side (top and bottom), smaller in length, but taller than a 103?
The only problem you've got is it might not be the best match for your SME V. The 'M', however, isn't as low-compliance as the stock 103, so you might get away with it. It'll certainly be interesting to know what you think :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
15-02-2016, 15:09
No, I'm being serious! I had one in the 80s and it's a STUNNING cartridge - arguably the best 103 ever made. It would definitely give my DL-S1 a run for its money.
It is a 103M you've got, isn't it - silver body in the middle and black either side (top and bottom), smaller in length, but taller than a 103?
The only problem you've got is it might not be the best match for your SME V. The 'M', however, isn't as low-compliance as the stock 103, so you might get away with it. It'll certainly be interesting to know what you think :)
Marco.
i managed to find this from a friends tip off, cost 180 quid. Yep it's the 103m. I don't intend using it on the V it's going on the 3012. I'll get some photos when it arrives. Any hints or tips?
Wakefield Turntables
15-02-2016, 20:22
Marco, you asked for some pix
1620716208162091621016211
Does this look familiar?
Hi Andy,
Yup, that's defo what a 103M should look like! :)
Tips? Not really, but I'd experiment with different headshells, in terms of mass and material type, as some are going to match the 103M better than others. The SME, being a 12-inch arm, is reasonably high-mass, so you don't need to use too heavy a headshell, but it should be made of something suitably rigid. Magnesium would be good. In that respect, an Audio-Technica MG-10 would probably be ideal.
When I had a 103M I had good results with the AT and Denon magnesium headshells, so you may like to try those. Also at 0.12mV, the 103M is very low output, so you're going to need an SUT or head amp with a healthy gain/output. Not sure what you're using in that respect at the moment, but in general Denon MCs tend to prefer being paired with SUTs or head amps, rather than used directly into an MC stage.
Anyway, if you can get it to 'sing', you'll truly have a wonderful cartridge on your hands. And if you don't like it/can't get it to work, please give me first refusal, should you ever decide to sell it.
Marco.
Any further developments with your 'M', Andy? :)
Did you see my above post?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
18-02-2016, 08:50
Hi Andy,
Yup, that's defo what a 103M should look like! :)
Tips? Not really, but I'd experiment with different headshells, in terms of mass and material type, as some are going to match the 103M better than others. The SME, being a 12-inch arm, is reasonably high-mass, so you don't need to use too heavy a headshell, but it should be made of something suitably rigid. Magnesium would be good. In that respect, an Audio-Technica MG-10 would probably be ideal.
When I had a 103M I had good results with the AT and Denon magnesium headshells, so you may like to try those. Also at 0.12mV, the 103M is very low output, so you're going to need an SUT or head amp with a healthy gain/output. Not sure what you're using in that respect at the moment, but in general Denon MCs tend to prefer being paired with SUTs or head amps, rather than used directly into an MC stage.
Anyway, if you can get it to 'sing', you'll truly have a wonderful cartridge on your hands. And if you don't like it/can't get it to work, please give me first refusal, should you ever decide to sell it.
Marco.
Marco, thanks for your input. I've already got the 103r that I own sitting on a magnesium head shell with very high purity silver tags and leads:eyebrows:. I've got something special planned with a pair of hashimoto hm7 in the next couple of months so that take care of the sut. Yep, you can have it if you decide to sell.
The only problem you've got is it might not be the best match for your SME V. The 'M', however, isn't as low-compliance as the stock 103, so you might get away with it.
Marco I think you've got that twisted. The heavier SME (309 / IV / V) arms are designed to work better with low compliance carts.
The 'M' with its rated compliance at 13 is less suitable than the standard 103.
-
We know the Jap figures are stated at 100Hz so the actual compliance for the M at 10Hz is likely more up around the 20 mark which is too high. This is the problem I had with the DL-S1 on my IV. It's quoted at 14 which makes it also around the 20 mark.
I could get away with it on about 80% of records but it wasn't optimal.
On records with a lot of instruments the stylus would literally jump out of the grooves!
-
I appreciate Andy said the M was destined for his 3012 anyway so it's irrelevant but ho hum...
According to the specs the compliance on the 103M seems identical to the DL-301. I looked the 103M up out of curiosity and if I made any sense of the Google translation, it seems it had an air core (like the DL-1000A?) and a boron pipe cantilever with a 'special elliptical' stylus with identical shank dimensions to the one in DL-301. Pricing was pretty affordable, just a tad over what DL-301 cost back then, less than half of the DL-305 and less than third of the price of DL-1000A. It was advertised as a high compliance model with similar frequency response to the 103. Seems like a bit of an odd ball, but probably a very enjoyable one! The technology is pretty advanced and you'd spend big bucks in anything modern to get that kind of performance on a spec sheet :D
103 M worked fine on my SME 309, FWIW.
Mine has been re-tipped with a Paratrace at some point.
Very liquid, nice extension on both ends. The Paratrace is a bit more fussy about VTA and set up than the stock spherical (presume).
In use, the M seems a good bit higher compliance than any of the other 103 variations.
And, I agree the M makes better music than the DSL1, although there is no rational explanation for this.
I used the M with a Hagerman Piccolo set for max gain (26db), which sounded better than either of the transformers I have.
Marco I think you've got that twisted. The heavier SME (309 / IV / V) arms are designed to work better with low compliance carts.
The 'M' with its rated compliance at 13 is less suitable than the standard 103.
-
We know the Jap figures are stated at 100Hz so the actual compliance for the M at 10Hz is likely more up around the 20 mark which is too high. This is the problem I had with the DL-S1 on my IV. It's quoted at 14 which makes it also around the 20 mark.
I could get away with it on about 80% of records but it wasn't optimal.
On records with a lot of instruments the stylus would literally jump out of the grooves!
-
I appreciate Andy said the M was destined for his 3012 anyway so it's irrelevant but ho hum...
Hi Adam,
I can't comment on your experience with the compliance figures, but I have considerable experience (stretching over 25 years) of using just about every DL-103 derivative known to man, on a multitude of different arms and turntables, and I can say with some confidence that, compliance aside, none of said Denons have worked optimally on modern 'rigid-type' SME tonearms.
First and foremost, the low-compliance models in the 103 range like being fitted to 'lossy' arms with detachable headshells. You do not want to be using arms such as Regas, new SMEs and anything of lowish-mass, as the DL103's extremely low-compliance means that a tremendous amount of energy is transmitted into the arm.
The SME 3009 (non-improved), or indeed 3012, offer excellent synergy, as they will do a good job of damping the cartridge's energy, whilst "tighter" low-mass arms will struggle, therefore in my experience, 309s/IVs and Vs are out, both because they have insufficient mass and are too 'rigid'.
As Andy is fitting his 103M to a 3012, then I'm confident it will be a good match, not so much for compliance reasons or mass, but the fact that the 3012 is lossy, not 'rigid'. Therefore, if he fits it with a nicely damped/low-resonance headshell, such as an AT-MG10 (magnesium is a superb material for headshells), and uses the right Hashimoto transformers to optimally match with the 103M's electrical requirements, then he should be in for some very nice sounds indeed! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Kai,
I looked the 103M up out of curiosity and if I made any sense of the Google translation, it seems it had an air core (like the DL-1000A?) and a boron pipe cantilever with a 'special elliptical' stylus with identical shank dimensions to the one in DL-301. Pricing was pretty affordable, just a tad over what DL-301 cost back then, less than half of the DL-305 and less than third of the price of DL-1000A. It was advertised as a high compliance model with similar frequency response to the 103. Seems like a bit of an odd ball, but probably a very enjoyable one! The technology is pretty advanced and you'd spend big bucks in anything modern to get that kind of performance on a spec sheet :D
I can assure you that you're not wrong! ;)
In the right set up, the 103M is a stunner.....
Marco.
none of said Denons have worked optimally on modern 'rigid-type' SME tonearms.
You do not want to be using arms such as Regas, new SMEs and anything low-mass
low-mass arms will struggle, therefore in my experience, 309s/IVs and Vs are out, both because they have insufficient mass and are too 'rigid'.
Sorry Marco you've still got this totally backwards.
The modern SME arms are medium to high mass and as such are perfectly suited to the 103 or 103R (Low Compliance)
The 3009 which is actually lower mass is better suited to the likes of the S1 or 103M (High Compliance)
Hi Louis,
And, I agree the M makes better music than the DSL1, although there is no rational explanation for this.
Although I wouldn't outright disagree (as it's been some time since I last heard a 103M), I'm not so sure. The latter should certainly be in that sort of league, but "makes better music" is liable to be both a subjective and system-dependant thing.
If Andy loans (or sells) me his 103M in the future, then I will post a detailed comparison between both cartridges. There's no doubt, however, that both are veritable 'giant-killers' and could easily compete with any £2-3k moving coils produced today by so-called 'more desirable' high-end MC cartridge manufacturers :exactly:
Marco.
Sorry Marco you've still got this totally backwards.
The modern SME arms are medium to high mass and as such are perfectly suited to the 103 or 103R (Low Compliance)
The 3009 which is actually lower mass is better suited to the likes of the S1 or 103M (High Compliance)
Sorry, I don't have it totally backwards! What you've written above is completely wrong.
Modern SME arms are not medium to high-mass. At best they are medium-mass. Even the V only has an effective mass of, at the very most 11g, which is fundamentally NOT high-mass. See here: http://www.analogueseduction.net/tonearms/sme-series-v-tone-arm.html
...noting the following specifications:
- Effective Mass: 10.0/11.0g
- Cartridge Balance Range: 4.2-1.8g
- Vertical Tracking Force: 0-3.0g (30mN)
- Nullpoints Inner: 66.04mm
- Nullpoints Outer: 120.9mm
- Audio Lead Capacitance: 140.0pF per channel
- Audio Lead Resistance: 0.145 ohms per conductor
- Internal Wiring Capacitance: 15.0pF per channel
- Internal Wiring Resistance: 0.535 ohms per channel
- Output Plug and Socket: DIN 5-pole 240 (degrees)
- Weight, Net: 720.0g
High-mass arms are more in the 18-20g region, or above! I can also assure you that a basic DL-103 (or other low-compliance MC cartridges) will sound crap on an SME V, or indeed any modern SME arm (aside from the Series M2-9R), for reasons already given.
The effective mass of the SME 3009 (non-improved) version, with a detachable headshell, is largely governed by the weight of the headshell fitted.
Therefore, if you fit a 15g detachable headshell (such as are obtainable in various guises from different manufacturers), then you can easily turn the 3009 into a 'high-mass arm', which (along with its 'lossy', non-rigid design) will work a treat with low-compliance cartridges, such as a DL-103. It can also be used with the likes of an SPU or EMT (XSD-15).
Therefore, I'm afraid that it's YOU, not me, who has this all 'arse about face' :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
18-02-2016, 21:13
F'KIN ell, this debate has moved on quite a bit, all for the good. I really will have to read around the subject, I'm in the middle of messing around with the 301. I'll come back to this is a few days. Sorry guys.
Floyddroid
18-02-2016, 21:23
Nice
Marco, you asked for some pix
1620716208162091621016211
Does this look familiar?
Steady on there Marco, old chap - let's not be too dogmatic.
You are right to say that cartridges having a low compliance tend to put a lot of excess energy into the arm. There are a number of ways to deal with this excess energy. You can deal with it at source by absorbing it in a heavy headshell, or use a lossy 'cartridge isolator' (the latter can work well with Decca cartridges), or it can be absorbed in the arm itself, by either filling the arm tube with a lossy medium (as is done on early SME arms), or by applying damping near the arm pivot (by using a silicone fluid damping dashpot).
Or use a rigid arm (and rigid coupling of the cartridge to arm), so the excess energy is ducted down the arm, through the arm bearings and absorbed by the mass of the turntable. The later SME arms are more rigid than the earlier arms, and the SME V works well with Koetsu and the Decca (London) Reference, both low compliance cartridges. The Breuer Dynamic arm is both rigid and low mass, it too works well with the low compliance Koetsu and EMT cartridges.
So neither of you, in my opinion, have it "arse about face".
(By the way, why did you not keep your 103M?)
I completely agree, Barry, but the fact is that none of the modern SME arms Adam mentions is high-mass! Yet he's accused me of getting it totally backwards... :doh:
Furthermore, the (non-improved) SME 3009, as you know full well yourself, from using it for years with a DL-103, SPU and EMT (amongst others), is perfectly at home with low-compliance cartridges, which is the opposite from what Adam is saying.
Those are the two things that, unfortunately, he's gotten 'arse about face'.
As for the 103M, it was many years ago (mid 80s) when I last had one, and much has changed since then. If I could turn the clock back, I'd certainly not have let it go! :)
Marco.
none of the modern SME arms Adam mentions is high-mass!
OK I'll give you the high mass comment. On everything else I completely disagree with you.
Well, that's fine. You have your experiences and I have mine :)
Marco.
For posterity, here's what happens when you use a high compliance cart (in this case a Denon DL-S1) in a medium mass tonearm:-
https://youtu.be/rq66rCkda2Y
I'll point out again though that on about 80% of my records the SME still did a sterling job but on anything really noisy, this cart was just too wobbly!
Interesting, and rather bizarre... The DL-S1 I have works superbly (with zero problems, reproducing all genres of music), in my fairly high-mass Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, but only with a mid-mass headshell fitted (no more than 10g).
Marco.
All kinds of weird things can happen with certain arm/cartridge combinations. Taking a needledrop of a sweep tone on a test record and looking for the resonance peak is the only real way to be sure what's happening.
Well in a Mission 774 or Grace somethingorother the same cart tracked the same record perfectly.
I had the exact same results with a DL304 and some NOS carts.
Ultimately I chose to keep the IV and switch to lower compliance carts.
walpurgis
19-02-2016, 00:00
For posterity, here's what happens when you use a high compliance cart (in this case a Denon DL-S1)
The DL-S1 is a low compliance cartridge.
walpurgis
19-02-2016, 00:03
Well in a Mission 774 or Grace somethingorother the same cart tracked the same record perfectly.
I had the exact same results with a DL304 and some NOS carts.
Ultimately I chose to keep the IV and switch to lower compliance carts.
In a Mission 774, every cartridge tracks properly.
(at least, I've never found one that didn't and that's around a hundred of them)
Arkless Electronics
19-02-2016, 00:08
In a Mission 774, every cartridge tracks properly.
(at least, I've never found one that didn't and that's around a hundred of them)
No no no they're bloody awful things those Mission 774's! (button it Geoff before you talk the price up! I want one!) :D
In a Mission 774, every cartridge tracks properly.
(at least, I've never found one that didn't and that's around a hundred of them)
Always liked the 774. It's a great all-rounder :)
I have to say that in four and a half years of owning the Ortofon RS-212D, I've yet to find a cartridge that doesn't work well on it, and I've tried quite a few different ones.
That's one of the advantages, however, of arms with detachable headshells: you can tailor the mass of the arm to suit the cartridge of your choice. I find that invaluable, along with the ease of swapping from one cartridge to another in minutes, presuming that those used have all been pre-mounted in dedicated headshells :cool:
Marco.
The DL-S1 is a low compliance cartridge.
Denon DL-S1 Phono Cartridge Specifications:
- Type: Moving coil
- Output voltage: 0.15mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-70kHz
- Recommended load impedance: Over 100 ohms
- Channel balance @ 1kHz: < 1db
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: > 28dB
- Stylus tip: 0.07 x 0.07 mm square solid diamond
- Compliance: 14 x 10-6 cm/dyne
- Recommended tracking force: (1.3g +/- 0.2g)
- Color: Black/Gold
- Weight: 7 g
Would you consider that to be low-compliance, Geoff, compared with the DL-103, as shown below?
Denon DL-103 Technical Specification:
Stylus: 16.5 µm diamond spherical tip
Cantilever: Aluminum
Frequency Response: 20 ~ 45 kHz
Output: 0.3 mV at 50 mm/s
Output Impedance: 40 Ω
Load Impedance: 100 Ω
Channel Separation: Over 25 dB at 1 kHz
Compliance: 5 x 10–6 cm/dyne (100 Hz)
Tracking Force: 2.3 ~ 2.7g (± 0.3g)
Weight: 8.5 grams
Marco.
walpurgis
19-02-2016, 00:24
No no no they're bloody awful things those Mission 774's! (button it Geoff before you talk the price up! I want one!) :D
You're too late mate. I've been gobbing off about them for years and I'm sure my efforts have influenced the sharp rise in prices recently (justifably so of course ;))
Same with the excellent Toshiba SR-370 turntable I've been spouting about and people are beginning to latch onto (good job I've got two of them).
http://i64.tinypic.com/ipcr9t.jpg
All kinds of weird things can happen with certain arm/cartridge combinations. Taking a needledrop of a sweep tone on a test record and looking for the resonance peak is the only real way to be sure what's happening.
Agreed - the calculated resonance of the Denon DLS-1 in an SME IV will be somewhere in the range 7.5 - 8.6Hz. Whilst this is on the low side, it doesn't explain the arm/cartridge 'trembling' shown in the video. Some damping would improve matters; rising the resonance to ~ 9 - 10Hz.
The DL-S1 is a low compliance cartridge.
How so?
The compliance of 14 is at 100Hz making it at least 21 at 10Hz....
walpurgis
19-02-2016, 00:38
Would you consider that to be low-compliance, Geoff
Marco.
Are those dynamic or static values Marco? But the answer is yes. Both are low compliance carts. However, the figure for the base DL-103 seems particularly low. The very high compliance ADC 26 was specified at 50 x 10-6cm/Dyne and at the time it was manufactured, companies like Ortofon, Empire and Shure were in the same ball park with their MMs.
Are those dynamic or static values
Dynamic.
Bigman80
19-02-2016, 06:25
You're too late mate. I've been gobbing off about them for years and I'm sure my efforts have influenced the sharp rise in prices recently (justifably so of course ;))
Same with the excellent Toshiba SR-370 turntable I've been spouting about and people are beginning to latch onto (good job I've got two of them).
http://i64.tinypic.com/ipcr9t.jpg
agreed
Wakefield Turntables
01-03-2016, 14:21
Well the 103m has arrived todAy I might have a little play through the Lentek head amp :eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
01-03-2016, 21:39
I'm very underwhelmed with what I've heard so far from 103M, I think I need more time to play around with the cart .
walpurgis
01-03-2016, 22:48
Try it into another phono stage. I used a Denon briefly into a Lentek and found it bland.
Wakefield Turntables
02-03-2016, 08:40
Geoff,
Tried it via the croft mm phonostage with the Lentek and then through the paradise phonostage and still felt underwhelmed. Perhaps I set the bar a little too high with my expectations?
I'm very underwhelmed with what I've heard so far from 103M, I think I need more time to play around with the cart .
Must be some kind of mismatch, mate, as in the right set up, the 103M is capable of greatness. It could be that it doesn't like your SME....
Marco.
Try it into another phono stage. I used a Denon briefly into a Lentek and found it bland.
Couldn't have been a 103, otherwise something was badly broken! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
02-03-2016, 10:26
Marco,
I've only spun a few sides so I think I need to give it a few more hours it certainly doesn't sounds as good as the103r but the setup could be wrong. I've been tracking at 2.4g and using the usual 3012 Stevenson geometry, it's an ok cartridge don't get me wrong but not as good as some of the others that I own.
2.4g??? :eek: :eek: :eek: You're killing it, mate!
NO NO NO NO.... :nono:
It's not a normal 103, and has a totally different stylus, cantilever and all sorts. 1.4g is more like it!! Try it at that, and set anti-skate to around 1g, and see what happens :)
Marco.
If you had gone to the trouble of reading the instructions or looking at vinylengine.com , you would see the recommended VTF for the 103M is 1.2 - 1.6g.
Wakefield Turntables
02-03-2016, 11:29
Yep must admit, hands up, it was late night and I didn't pay much attention to detail. I shall try again and report back.
Hopefully it will sound a whole lot better, as Marco has said it would. Let us know how you get on. :)
Indeed, although there *may* be other issues in terms of optimal compatibility. Hopefully not, though! :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
02-03-2016, 12:57
Indeed, although there *may* be other issues in terms of optimal compatibility. Hopefully not, though! :)
Marco.
SPILL!
The cartridge and arm (the 3012 using the SME S2 headshell) have a calculated LF resonance of 9.9Hz, which is perfect. Is your SME fitted with the S200 damping dashpot?
I'm sure if you used the correct VTF and experiment with bias and VTA, you will be rewarded with a fine sounding cartridge that is operating in an optimal environment. After that you can experiment with loading and/or different step-up devices (both amps and SUTs).
Wakefield Turntables
02-03-2016, 19:36
Barry, many thanks. Tracking @ 2.4g didn't help much:doh:. Bias has been set at 1g as recommended and the cart tracks at 1.4g. The head amp is a heavily modded Nick Gorham Lentek special. It makes a very nice noise and for the money paid will happily challenge and probably beat anything upto £1K and probably have a fair crack at some carts in the £1.5k to £2k catagories. It's actually quite close to my Silver Meister SPU but comes nowhere near the Cadenza black I own. My Koestu Black (goldline) and Denon 103R have been beaten by quite some margin. In fact both are going on sale soon to fund some new mods to the Croft preamp. I'm not going to mess around with SUTs or head amps with this Denon 103M as I think the Lentek works quite well in the Croft MM stage on the preamp and the 301 / valve system was purchased and designed so I could mess around with SPU's. The 103M will certainly be retained for backup duties.
RobbieGong
02-03-2016, 21:07
Barry, many thanks. Tracking @ 2.4g didn't help much:doh:. Bias has been set at 1g as recommended and the cart tracks at 1.4g. The head amp is a heavily modded Nick Gorham Lentek special. It makes a very nice noise and for the money paid will happily challenge and probably beat anything upto £1K and probably have a fair crack at some carts in the £1.5k to £2k catagories. It's actually quite close to my Silver Meister SPU but comes nowhere near the Cadenza black I own. My Koestu Black (goldline) and Denon 103R have been beaten by quite some margin. In fact both are going on sale soon to fund some new mods to the Croft preamp. I'm not going to mess around with SUTs or head amps with this Denon 103M as I think the Lentek works quite well in the Croft MM stage on the preamp and the 301 / valve system was purchased and designed so I could mess around with SPU's. The 103M will certainly be retained for backup duties.
Some praise there of the 103M Andy, especially at it's price point. It was never ever really expected to better or even match the £1750 Cadenza Black which is the only cart I'd upgrade my Quintet Black to.
Andy, that's good news. So how does the 103M sound now since you've applied the correct VTF - in what way has it improved? :)
Marco.
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Oi, Andy Pandy! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
04-03-2016, 18:05
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Oi, Andy Pandy! ;)
Marco.
Erm, I've not written anything as I've boxed it up to play with another day, I'll send you a PM to tell the latest and greatest project.
Wakefield Turntables
08-04-2017, 16:10
I now own 2 Denon 103M's. I have one sitting on my very heavily modded Lenco 75 and another which is now sitting as a back-up cartridge for the Garrard 301. It was my intention to write some notes up regards this cartridge but I ended up doing a few other projects, so sorry to all those who expected a few notes with respects to how this things performs. I've been listening to a couple of sides of vinyl with the Lentek headamp and the Lenco 75 and all I can say is that it is an extremely accomplished performer for the price I paid. More to follow when I get some time, promise!
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