My thoughts on the NVA Phono 2 MM Stage [Archive]

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mikeyb

10-02-2016, 23:40

Hi,

I originally posted this on TAS yesterday and thought some people here might be interested, I posted it here last night late on via my phone and the images didn't copy/paste so I deleted the post in anticipation of redoing it again today, it should be noted I have no connection to NVA or anyone who works for them, I just fancied a shot of the Phono 2 Stage, so...........

I obtained a loan of the NVA Phono 2 stage ( MM version setup for my 2m Blue ) with external PSU last week.

My current setup is:

Source: Technics 1210 Mk5, standard arm, TT upgraded with Mike New Bearing, SDS IsoPlatmat, Ortofon 2m Blue cartridge fitted to ADC Magnesium Headshell ( thanks to Grant for the headsup ), tracking at 1.75g as recommended by Ortofon, Mark Grant cables left over from another setup.
https://mikeyb.smugmug.com/Other/Odds-and-Sods/i-F6NGqjC/0/M/IMG_20160210_112906-M.jpg

Amplifier: Tellurium Q Claymore
https://mikeyb.smugmug.com/Other/Odds-and-Sods/i-3HcktTJ/0/M/FullSizeRender-M.jpg

Speakers: PMC Twenty.21 Standmounts on dedicated PMC stands.
https://mikeyb.smugmug.com/Other/Odds-and-Sods/i-rfQxBpG/0/M/IMG_20160210_113815-M.jpg

Demo albums:

http://cdn.discogs.com/Iv4WzMEzlO6JHLi0fcFjMbBdXwk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-777107-1157693163.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/7jDVyS01Res9LkixxV0iZ2lcaII=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-398776-1324479435.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/j2GNCUAWRHao3F6SZ7UzT0pMoec=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-794091-1159611555.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/ycBuCtUIPSwJbnAhH3avtwjA5_E=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-1964028-1451311421-4931.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/mwEcjQa02_WZZfzDD0q-egYhR1M=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-494369-1171385458.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/y3hOS-mHAPxHzhYtUOZQqF5opsI=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-15706-1267974008.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/JH6JeF1uR37dt2krIradwYqGu3I=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-2450231-1288647528.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/A71cnHESh9t82_ZsjXJDIb_kfDQ=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-391322-1347726103-1009.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/uw713Bkmpeb9ejaW6euucAFzcjc=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-1206134-1318090776.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/WyBwRRd9V-1okY4XSK7nPE_c2pk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-6268164-1415300916-9614.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/HCLYoCtPA0aGNsycLanVF2Fb2Ms=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-639545-1277679119.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/u4JOkzMBfPy3LRs04gQFTc5-VE0=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-1345181-1291606764.jpeg.jpg http://cdn.discogs.com/eT_AQp61nulxy9bM62X96_aU0tg=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb()/discogs-images/R-5559093-1396619904-7804.jpeg.jpg

Please note that I didn't listen to whole albums I mostly cherry picked tracks that I loved and knew well, although one or two of them did get a full play.

NVA Phono 2 with external PSU
http://i23.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/19/44/c4da_12.JPG
Stock Image from the NVA eBay page - I couldn't get decent pic without reflections due to the high gloss finish

Rear Shots
https://mikeyb.smugmug.com/Other/Odds-and-Sods/i-qk4x4Tw/0/M/IMG_20160210_113053-M.jpg

Showing the PSU connections
https://mikeyb.smugmug.com/Other/Odds-and-Sods/i-bvs24zC/0/M/IMG_20160210_113135-M.jpg

PSU Power Switch
https://mikeyb.smugmug.com/Other/Odds-and-Sods/i-dGDDknf/0/M/IMG_20160210_113152-M.jpg

Arty shot
https://mikeyb.smugmug.com/Other/Odds-and-Sods/i-CRHf4Ts/0/M/IMG_20160204_205448-M.jpg

Let's get to it.....

Build Quality is excellent, the High Gloss Acrylic cases look and feel great ( a bugger to photograph though lol ), dust magnets for sure, but they look great and in our house dust doesn't lie around too long, the cases being identical size makes them nice and neat on the shelf with large NVA emblazoned on the right side being the only markings on the front, along with a subtle single red Led on the same edge the stage and the psu, which again looks tidy and understated.

Each box is 250mm wide by 70mm high and 210mm deep.

So I hooked it all up, simple enough, very good fit on the PSU connectors to the stage itself, RCA socket the same quality of fit, with a toggle switch for Power On/Off - love the toggle switch, much prefer them to push buttons, they just feel sturdier. Upon switching on you get a little internal thump as the psu kicks in with very low amount of internal hum to begin with but this soon disappears into the background, so far so good. First up was Thin Lizzy's Fighting, one of my favourites and one I bought on release in 1975 so it's had a bit of play over the years, however it's is an album that I still really enjoy and is quite a powerful recording. My TQ amp has a built in phonostage and has been mentioned in a few reviews that it is very good too, I don't disagree, I had previously tried a Trigon Vanguard II, a Whest 2.0 and a Firebottle ( Built by a hifi enthusiast - see AoS forum for more info ) the Firebottle easily beat the Trigon AND the Whest as well as my amp's internal one, however my wife's redundancy put any purchase of the Firebottle well and truly on the back burner. So I was stuck with the TQ internal stage, this gives me something to base this review on, although I do remember the qualities of the Firebottle that I liked so will mentally refer back to that in comparison too.

The first thing that struck ( literally ) me on the opening track was the power and attack of the guitar chords, then the drums kicked in, wow, I thought, now that's a rock record, I hadn't heard it this good, ever! The Phono 2 sounded much more powerful and direct than the inbuilt stage, probably a bit more gutsy than the Valve based Firebottle but marginal. I think the Firebottle is cleaner more precise but I'm not sure that's not always a good thing for rock.

Now you know what it's like when you get a new hifi toy, you flick through tracks/albums ( possibly not as much as my wife does with the TV remote but you know what I mean), over the next few days when I had time, I ended up jumping through the various albums above and enjoyed them all. My collection dates back to 1975 and as you can tell by the choices I listened to I'm a rocker, but I also like Electronic ( Tangerine Dream, Kraftwwerk etc ) although that type of music was hard to come by in the mid 70's on LP unless someone imported them and they cost a bomb, so I don't have many early version, Kraftwerk's Man Machine probably being my earliest Electronic LP.

The key elements of the sounds I was getting from the Phono 2 at least playing Rock anyway, were:

It seems to match very well with the 2M Blue, it was setup for this ( I sent the info to NVA prior so they could match it ) and it is spot on, the soundstage is about the same as my TQ amp stage, slightly less than the Firebottle, but only a little. The music seems to fill my room better with the Phono 2, I sit at the opposite and of the room from the speakers and using the TQ stage the sound is only driven about 1/3 rd of the way into the room, using the Phono 2 its increased by about another 3 or 4 ft to halfway ( does that make sense? ), the Phono 2 has more impact on guitar and especially drums, my PMC's aren't very efficient at 87db, but the Phono 2 gave them a lot more drive and impact. They HAVE to stay as my wife picked them and likes the size of them as they don't dominate the room, I'd like bigger ones ( don't we all lol ), but for now they are here to stay, the phono 2 made me think, that's not a problem, mind you I have thought of changing to the PMC 22's as they aren't that much bigger but would give 90db and I'm pretty sure the wife wouldn't notice ;)

I then tried a Shure 97Xe cartridge on the TT which made the sound a good bit warmer than the 2M Blue, but not as clear on the top end, it didn't stay on long, I preferred the 2m Blue, it should be noted however that the Shure is brand new and not run in yet and is still using the OEM stylus.

The only thing I wasn't sure about on the Phono 2 was the sound of the drums, yes they had impact/slam/drive whatever you weant to call it, but they sounded different to how they sounded on the TQ internal stage and the Firebottle, for some reason I wasn't convinced they sounded right, strange thing to say I know, and its very subjective, but I'm of the opinion that if it sounds good and you like it, does it matter if it's right? I listen to music not HiFi ( although I'm dangerously close to losing the ability to just listen to the music and I blame Forums :P ) The drums might not sound right on my TQ amp stage or on the Firebottle, but I preferred how they sounded on them rather than on the Phono 2, but the Phono 2 was better overall which I think is more important.

I also tried the Phono 2 into my Inca Tech Claymore 2 amp ( recently bought off eBay ), now there's a rock setup if ever I heard it, probably as 'live' as I will ever get in my house unless the wife relents and lets me buy Floorstanders, it's ALL I'm going to get, subtle no, genteel, not in a million years, I like my music fairly loud a lot of the time but can listen at low levels if reading or browsing t'internet, but the Clay 2/Phono 2 combo had me there! The fullest I've heard my room with music since buying the various bits, the 100w Claymore drive my PMC's better than the TQ version, however the TQ is the better all round amp.

The Claymore 2 is heading down to Colin's this week for a service, it's a pity I won't have the Phono 2 by time it returns as I am sure it would sound even better.

Right, I've waffled enough, it's a damn sight easier to talk about this than type it, but hey ho life's a bitch.

In summary:

Pros:

Build Quality
Looks
Size ( I like how the PSU and Stage match )
Sound Quality
Price ( £490 with PSU )

Cons:

Drums ( but only a tiny bit ) *

Would/will I buy one, not sure to be honest, it is difficult for me to demo anything near me, so having the opportunity to try out the Phono 2 is greatly appreciated, I think my biggest issue with my Vinyl setup is that I haven't decided which cartridge to go with yet and I should no doubt test cart and stage together but that's all but impossible for me, I just have to buy to try, then sell on if I don't like. A Phono stage that covers both MM and MC with switchable settings would be more practical until I settle on my final setup ( if I ever ).

Sorry if I've bored you, thanks very much to Dave for organising the demo.

Mike. ( still as lost/confused as ever)

*PS: since I posted this on TAS yesterday I was informed that having the Stage stacked with the PSU was a big no no, doh! I did mention that I was just copying the advert photo and anyway it looked neater lol, so I duly moved them apart and I have to admit it made a big difference, bass was even tighter and cleaner, there was a bit more detail as well, so all in all it was good advice, it was also noted that this should maybe be mentioned when demo boxes go out on loan as no instructions were included at all, ok it's easily enough hooked up but little tips like separation of the boxes always helps.

mikeyb

11-02-2016, 09:58

Redone with images showing now :)

The Black Adder

11-02-2016, 10:11

I had the same phono stage. I found it very good too.... I was about to mention the separation of the units too until your last paragraph.

I found it really hummy until I moved the PSU away... well away. I was running an Ortofon Rondo Red and a Michell Gyro SE, Rega arm.

I didn't keep it long though, about a year maybe before something else bettered it but on a whole I thought it was alright for the price. It was certainly enjoyable.

Enjoy the toonz! :)

mikeyb

11-02-2016, 10:31

Spectral Morn

11-02-2016, 12:19

Hi,

seems obvious now, but I just though they were designed to sit that way, as per the photo on eBay lol.

Ok, don't keep it to yourself , what did you upgrade it with? ;)

Mike.

Whole point of an external PSU is to separate the noise creating power supply as far away as possible from the delicate circuits that that noise can affect. Phonostages are particular vulnerable to possible interference and effect from PSU noise, RFI, and magnetic fields. Removing the PSU aspect and adding shielding to critical areas are worthwhile, unless you are willing to build a massive partitioned case, with heavy internal shielding. Problem with that is the price goes up, so external PSU a very cost effective way of solving one design problem.

Nice review by the way.

mikeyb

11-02-2016, 12:37

Whole point of an external PSU is to separate the noise creating power supply as far away as possible from the delicate circuits that that noise can affect. Phonostages are particular vulnerable to possible interference and effect from PSU noise, RFI, and magnetic fields. Removing the PSU aspect and adding shielding to critical areas are worthwhile, unless you are willing to build a massive partitioned case, with heavy internal shielding. Problem with that is the price goes up, so external PSU a very cost effective way of solving one design problem.

Nice review by the way.
It should have been obvious to me, but the thought never even crossed my mind lol.

It certainly made a difference moving it and for just under £500 these units are a pretty good buy, trying them with my Claymore 2 was excellent, I've just posted the Claymore 2 off to Colin for a service and upgrade so would have been great to have the Phono 2 here but I'll have to send it back as I've had it since last Wednesday.

Glad you liked my review.

The Black Adder

11-02-2016, 12:59

Hi Mike.

Sure, for the price it's smashing.

I upgraded to a PSAudio phono stage and then had Nick Gorham make a full valve one for me of which was sublime and will most likely get another one made when I move back to an MC cartridge.

Gazjam

11-02-2016, 13:33

Have to say I had one for a bried time and sold it on, found it dull, grey and lifeless I'm afraid.
Didn't have the external psu mind, so could have been that to be fair.

The Firebottle I currently use is significantly better.

*EDIT*

Schoolboy error on my part, I had heard the phono 1 and thought it was the same thing.
My mistake! :)
Phono 2 could be a different beast all together, not heard it myself, and from all accounts it seems to be.

CageyH

11-02-2016, 14:21

It sounds like you had the phono 1 then?
Not the same thing afaik.

mikeyb

11-02-2016, 15:03

It sounds like you had the phono 1 then?
Not the same thing afaik.
Yeah the Phono 1 has an internal PSU, the Phono 2 has an external PSU and you can also add another PSU to power each side of the stage.

DSJR

11-02-2016, 16:27

The Phono 1 may well be a lot of things, but dull, grey and lifeless isn't something I'd easily chuck its way with respect - and that's in comparison with a Croft PP phono stage (properly loaded at both ends...) and a very good solid state AVI preamp phono stage (after 45 minutes of settling time).

If I was criticising the Phono 1, it would be a little lean toned as all inexpensive phono stages can be, but never 'stripped bare' as the most basic often are (power supplies?), care needed with siting to minimise hum, but able to present an agile and basically honest and lively quality with most modern cartridges. I read a measurement inclusive test not very long ago (I think it may have been HFW) and the main issue they commented on from memory was marginal extreme hf overload margins (the popular and very cheap Schiit Mani and others are similar I think, again from memory). Since many cartridges are slightly under the nominal 5mV (at 5cm/s velocity) and have often smoother hf responses - don't use an M55e or similar antique without heavy capacitance being added is my recommendation - it may not be a huge issue and certainly doesn't seem to be with my Phono 2.

I'm not commenting more on the Phono 2 as it would seem like shilling, but I like mine (bought and paid for) and after some gear re-arrangement, I get absolutely no hum from it and it changes sound with the turntable system feeding it. One thing I will suggest and this would apply to ALL really decent phono stages I think where music quality is as important as pure measurements and that's how even basic antique turntables such as I play with, DO have musical merit of some sort, but when you put on something half decent, the sound blossoms out in all directions, bass takes on a better level of perspective and quality in terms of separating noises, rumbles and distortions from the music itself (something cheaper stages don't do as well) and allows easy 'suspension of disbelief' when playing records.

Sorry to jump in here. Gaz, glad you prefer the Firebottle and hope it stays reliable and enjoyable for you for decades, as my old Croft has..

Marco

11-02-2016, 17:58

Hi Mike,

Excellent review, which was both well-written and informative. Thanks for taking the time to write it and share it with us :cool:

Marco.

The Black Adder

11-02-2016, 18:08

+1 A nicely presented review too.

Hardware aside, you have used some great music there too. :)

mikeyb

11-02-2016, 19:27

Thanks Marco, Adder,

Makes it all worthwhile when people appreciate what you've written.

I still have the stage at the moment, but it's on the back burner due to my Zu 103 arriving today, mind you I've just sat down for the first time today so might actually put some choons on.

You can tell I was a mid 70's teen lol.

Gazjam

11-02-2016, 22:47

Fair do's. :)

Nice writeup Mike,
a good read mate.

Floyddroid

12-02-2016, 09:55

mikeyb

12-02-2016, 10:31

In fairness to both products they are two different beasts and both have their merits. I didn't find the Phono 2 dull and lifeless at all. On the contrary, i found it highly musical where the Firebottle (at least the one i have) majors on subtlety. Here are my views as written on my website..... http://theprogmeister.com/nva-phono-2-phono-stage/
Hi,

I had forgotten about your review of the Phono 2, you had the same enjoyment from it that I had, I only had the one PSU, would have interesting to have had the 2nd supply as well.

I've just swapped my cart to an mc one so it's going straight into my TQ Claymore and sounds great. Tempted to try the Phono 2 set up for mc AND have both PSUs too.

Gazjam

12-02-2016, 10:33

In fairness to both products they are two different beasts and both have their merits. I didn't find the Phono 2 dull and lifeless at all. On the contrary, i found it highly musical where the Firebottle (at least the one i have) majors on subtlety. Here are my views as written on my website..... http://theprogmeister.com/nva-phono-2-phono-stage/

Yup,
s'all subjective.

To be equally fair Steve, I've not heard the Phono 2, my comment was just my opinion about the Phono 1. ;)
Looks like NVA have developed the product and improved it, which is always the way it should be.

DSJR

12-02-2016, 11:01

I'm sorry it's not easy for a user to reconfigure gain and load on either model, but current production makes it much easier to do this inside now, so the main board doesn't have to be taken out for soldering - and the relevant resistors are NOT inline with the signal, the loading resistors are across the input and the gain ones in the feedback loop I think - the chips were designed for variable gain I understand from reading. The Zu Denon may well exploit the strengths of the loan unit imo if experiences with RD's similar 'feel' SPU (elliptical?) are anything to go by - so apologies here.

P.S. Gaz's comments on his Phono 1 of old have got me thinking and remembering years-ago conversations with Marco have given me much pause for thought this last 24 hours. Many of my audio experiences filed away are from decades ago and although some memories of 'sound quality' are still relevant, many others are based on gear and setting up of the time gone by when these products were current. Old speakers for example can sound so much better (even before re-wiring and recaps) on a well set up modern system and stands etc. and especially cartridges and even the turntables (otherwise good measuring old direct drives for example) can be transformed for the better in terms of sonics, if they're sited right, partly or fully rewired (exit cables to amp at least) and so on and so on. Hope these ramblings make sense, but one thing I've tried to do (and shall try harder to do) is to put context into my opinions...

Marco

12-02-2016, 11:27

P.S. Gaz's comments on his Phono 1 of old have got me thinking and remembering years-ago conversations with Marco have given me much pause for thought this last 24 hours. Many of my audio experiences filed away are from decades ago and although some memories of 'sound quality' are still relevant, many others are based on gear and setting up of the time gone by when these products were current. Old speakers for example can sound so much better (even before re-wiring and recaps) on a well set up modern system and stands etc. and especially cartridges and even the turntables (otherwise good measuring old direct drives for example) can be transformed for the better in terms of sonics, if they're sited right, partly or fully rewired (exit cables to amp at least) and so on and so on. Hope these ramblings make sense, but one thing I've tried to do (and shall try harder to do) is to put context into my opinions...

Thanks, Dave, and I appreciate that :)

I think it's important that all of us (not just you, because we're all guilty sometimes of not doing so) are, when necessary, prepared to 'reassess' our established opinions in audio, and don't arrogantly consider that we *intrinsically know* how good or otherwise ANY product is, but particularly vintage items, simply because we've heard them once or twice in a specific context, often YEARS ago, when that context bears no resemblance to the current one in which said product(s) are being judged.

It rips my knitting beyond belief when folks think that they 'know it all', based merely on a scant listen to something, and thus proclaim it as 'crap', or whatever, ignorantly writing it off/dismissing it, when very often it's obvious that, whatever it was, either wasn't used in a way that allowed it to perform at its full potential, and given a proper chance, or in some cases, simply a complete mismatch with the other items it was tested with.

Always remain open-minded and receptive to new ideas, as well as having your age-old opinions quashed, and resist the urge not only to be OBSTINATE, but dogmatic and absolutist (which is far worse), is the mantra we should ALL sign up to with hi-fi, as in this game, none of us will ever know everything there is to know about everything...! ;)

I think that I might add that to Our Ethos...

Marco.

struth

12-02-2016, 11:41

;) moi? ....never!:D

mikeyb

12-02-2016, 17:57

I've now swapped everything to the other end of the room and the sound I'm getting has vastly improved, so when I get time I'll put my MM cart back on and have another listen to the Phono 2, I'm not expecting to be disappointed.