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DSJR
27-10-2009, 10:54
I've been threatening to re-visit Radlett Audio's Dave Wren for a year now and something non-audio related has always got in the way. The promise of a lengthy listen to Glenns amps (amongst others) and the splendid new Harbeth range, coupled with some urgent requirements of my own, finally led me over to West Essex, taking a wrong turn at the Braintree Bypass and going for a very picturesque hour long drive through some very pretty villages and small towns before coming almost full circle on the far side of Braintree (ggggrrrrrr!!!!!).....

Over the first of many cuppa's, I got to know the Harbeth Monitor 40.1. A large speaker in anyone's book and a far cry from the "organically warm" big Spendors I remember from a while ago. There's certainly big bass when asked for, but none when it's not, which came as a huge surprise, knowing some of the big "BBC" style domestic models of yore...

Another HUGE APOLOGY TO NAIM!!!!! I'm eating humble pie here, but the CD player that was running was a CDX-2, which again, and when compared with another player later on, totally lacked the grit and harshness I remember from its Olive ancestor. I was stunned, frankly, and not once did I feel the need to add an XPS-2 to the proceedings. The only negative for me is the £3500 approx price tag, especially when Rega have reduced the price of their popular players (sadly, their new top end machine hadn't arrived, so a Saturn had to do later on)..

The amp we first used was the £1500 approx. LFD, a very "clean" and "clear" amp of utmost "neutrality" with lovely styling IMO - it reminded me of the AVI amps, which many loved and a few didn't..... I was desperate to hear the Croft 25 pairing though and these were duly connected up and switched on :)

I must admit that although the Croft pair may not have been as "clean" as the LFD integrated, the palpable sense of "musicians playing to you" seemed far greater to me, putting broad grins on both our faces. I was now able to relax into the different CD's we were playing and also start to enjoy the vintage delights on offer, the system constantly bring me back to the music in a genteel, yet insistant way :)

Yep, that old techie SL110 is a bit of a beast and ripe for having new feet and a plinth filling of plasticene or similar. The little Godmans maxamp and tuner was lovely. The Yamaha CR2010 (?) was a monster in mint condition and the dear little Rogers Cadet III had me "glowing fondly" as I remember the one I once owned. As for the Tannoy IIILZ's and Robs "old" LGM's.......

Once the R200 arm had its cardas mini-din fitted and we offered it up to the Td125 to see where the moiunting hole had to go on the new armboard (mk1 Thorens with PERFECT main bearing - thanks SteveC67 wherever you are :)), I got out the Quad II's to try out. the faulty valve was replaced with another and they were first used with a pair of baby Heco's, which I found were a little "brash" compared to the Harbeths. To be fair, a retail price of around £500 put things back into perspective and I reckon these would sound great on the end of a vinyl system with valve (Puresound?) amps.

Putting the Quad II's back on the Harbeths was a bit of a let-down to be honest. The top end was soft and rolled off (both amps, by the way) and the bass was also soft and lacking extension by comparison with the Croft 25, which sells NEW for the same price as the Quads used. I wasn't hugely surprised, as the Quads seem to be the archetypal "trad-valve" amp, warm and glowing but ultimately coloured. The Croft power amp just seemed to take all the good "valve" things and add more precision and a far wider bandwidth IMO.

Now it was time for the ATC's to be unpacked, photo'd and checked prior to sale. I wasn't sure how they'd be, to be honest and was also unsure if the Croft pre could drive them via 8m of Belden 8760 interconnects, but it did and they sounded surprisingly good (duh!!!), having a more "assertive" presence band, a similarly good midrange IMO and a very dry, tightly controlled and rolled off bass, despite the bass controls on the backs being turned up a couple of notches. Perfect for "near-field" monitoring though IMO and I was very happy they could still "do it" with the best of modern designs..

Back to the Harbeths. Dave suggested the little P3 ESR's. God, they are stunning little boxes, solid, beautifully finished and the sound is amazingly good with a genuine feeling of "proper" bass, the same midrange quality of the biggies and a lovely clear and sweet treble, even on CD....... Nothing like the squeaky, astringent LS3/5A's I remember and apparently far clearer than the interim small Spendors and older P3's too. Incredible, and I suggest that a pair of these with a Uniti for Mick Parry would be an EXCELLENT choice of UK made quality product for his Spanish "shack."

Later on, we got out the Rega Saturn CD player, which has had a price drop to £875 I understand. Very good, but without the bass weight of the CDX-2 - still makes you wonder why the Naim sels for four times the price though...

Quickie edit. We tried the HL5ES-2 mk256 (or whatever they're called these days!). Highly reminiscant of the HL models that Harbeth started with and with a bass that was good quality, bit still a little dominant over the midrange. Lovely mid and top when there wasn't any bass in the signal and perfectly ok when the 40.1's aren't around for comparison.......

Best till last - DECCA GOLD!!!!! :lol: OOOOOHHHHHHH it's good!!!!!!!! The records we started to play, using AceSpace arm on Hyperspace turntable just sounded so "right," with no romance or "analogue" artifacts. Huge grins all round and a longing from me to get my TD125 and SL150 fetish out of the way and save hard for a Notts Analogue turntable (it's alright Marco, I'll probably visit you first for techie "indoctrination" before I can afford much :D)

If anyone is interested and hasn't fallen asleep by now, I'll post some piccies, although Photobucket isn't happy with my uploads this morning :(

Loads more we did. I'n't get to play with - bigger Heco's, Tannoy Canterbury's, some new Neats which look well made - I shall return...........

Alex_UK
27-10-2009, 18:38
Great write up Dave, and yes - piccies would be great (when photobucket wants to play, of course.)

(You told me off for fancying some Neats, so I hope they prove you wrong next time, too! :ner: )

Sounds like you had fun, detour excluded, and a good excuse for another visit by the sound of it!

Themis
27-10-2009, 18:51
Nice visit Dave. :)

Btw, which LFD was it ?

DSJR
27-10-2009, 20:21
Himself will have to answer that one I'm afraid. It was really excellent by solid-state standards, as also is the Rega Elicit, which sells at a similar price, but there's just "something" about the Croft pair.

I don't give a poo if it's added distortion or lack of damping factor (or whatever). It's just such FUN to listen "through..." and is truthful enough never to make you feel there's something "added" to the music it amplifies, but what it does well it does beautifully IMO.

DSJR
27-10-2009, 20:36
Some piccies :)

Monitor 40.1's on Something Solid stands-

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0557.jpg

Some vintage - Yamaha CR200 (has all the "feel" of the biggies and didn't sound bad either, can't remember the unit above, Rogers Cadet III - dear little softy, the Naim Nait of the sixties ;) and a late 70's Michel Reference (I think it's the electronic version 'cos of the feet) with SME and customer damaged AKG P8ES (:( )

Oh, i forgot the Lenco GL68 underneath...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0560.jpg

Some vinyl porn - Dias with 12" AceSpace/Lyra something-or-other [grown up OC9...] and a sexy FR64 with SPU [so coloured it makes you spue as well ;) )

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0561.jpg

The lovely HyperSpace with 10"? AceSpace and Decca Gold :):):):):)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0563.jpg

Crofty's preamp goodie with old Crown D-150 underneath

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0565.jpg

I may never pass this way again, but I want to use this once fettled to get it out of my system

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0568.jpg

I used to own one of these...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0566.jpg

Baby Heco's (no way were we going to try to remove the 40.1's...... ;)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0570.jpg

My Croft re-built babies, running again...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0571.jpg

Last for now, the baby P3ESR alongside its big brother

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0585.jpg

Beechwoods
27-10-2009, 20:45
That's some nice gear. Thanks for a great write-up Dave. You've made me very jealous thinking how those Harbeth's might have sounded.

DSJR
27-10-2009, 20:58
The great thing for me was to fire up my own stereo today and not be disappointed, despite the age and lowly nature of most of it :)

I didn't deliberately neglect Naim, but I am aware of the overall feel of their products and Dave insists the old scrappy harshness of their middle models has gone now..

I REALLY want to hear the two new expensive Rega products. That CD player is reputed to be an absolute killer AT ANY PRICE.......

Themis
27-10-2009, 21:02
You've made me very jealous thinking how those Harbeth's might have sounded.
Me too. These 40's must be something special ! :)

DSJR
27-10-2009, 21:10
Oh they are, they are indeed.......

The thing about large speakers is the sense of *ease* they generally have. Ash is right when he says that many passive crossovers seem to have a (phasey) harshness and he's also correct when he says that inappropriate three way speakers will sometimes sound fuzzy in the mid where the bass unot crosses over to the mid driver. the thing about the 40.1's is that Alan got the drive-units as near *right* as he could, making the crossover easier to design. CAD helped and then hours upon hours of careful listening.

Put it this way, my ATC's only came close because they are actively driven, the passive ones would have needed a kilowatt or three to do the same thing. Harbeth (and I'm sure others too) have got the inner details, seamlessness and total lack of listener-fatigue with a precision passive crossover made with good quality standard "non-boutique" bits...

Alex_UK
27-10-2009, 21:12
That last picture is fantastic - Daddy speaker and little tiny Baby speaker - awesome! Thanks for all of them, some lovely stuff.

Rare Bird
27-10-2009, 21:28
Some piccies :)


a late 70's Michel Reference (I think it's the electronic version 'cos of the feet) with SME and customer damaged AKG P8ES (:( )



http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0560.jpg





Michell Reference! Dave it's a Michell 'Prisma', If it's a black faced platter it's one of the first ones..If you think the LS3/5a sounds nice try the Jim Rogers 'JR149'..I prefer em..

Marco
27-10-2009, 21:54
Great write up, Dave - most interesting :)

I've got no doubt that the Monitor 40s sound superb... They look like a very similar size (and shape) to my old SP100s.

It's quite funny though - I used to think that SP100s and the likes of those Monitor 40s were genuinely BIG speakers; that was until I started using Tannoy 15" Monitor Golds... My Lockwood Majors are about three times the size of the Monitor 40s!! :eyebrows:


The thing about large speakers is the sense of *ease* they generally have.


I completely agree with that. A sense of effortlessness and ease is exactly what big speakers do best. The best ones also give all the intimacy and subtlety of top-notch 'bookshelf' designs, as well as a sense of scale and authority that they could only hint at.

Out of interest, how efficient are the Monitor 40s, and is it 12" drivers that they use?

Marco.

hifi_dave
27-10-2009, 23:37
Nice one DSJR. Thanks for the write up, I didn't know you were going to do it, I thought all the pics were for your family album...:lol:

hifi_dave
27-10-2009, 23:37
Hey look, I've done 300 posts. :gig:

Marco
28-10-2009, 10:35
Well done, Dave - here's to your next 300! :)

Incidentally, how efficient are the Monitor 40s and is it 12" drivers that they use?

Marco.

Themis
28-10-2009, 10:45
Well done, Dave - here's to your next 300! :)

Incidentally, how efficient are the Monitor 40s and is it 12" drivers that they use?

Marco.
Yes, the 300mm (12"). Harbeth's site seems to insist on good amplifier interaction. At http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=monitor40.1domestic&model=Monitor%2040.1%20domestic they say "86db/1W/1m - very easy amp. load"

Marco
28-10-2009, 11:12
Mmm... They're not very efficient, though. My SP100s were 90db - not sure why Harbeth couldn't make such big speakers at least as efficient.

Still, I'm sure that they'll still work well on the end of a decent P/P valve amp :)

Marco.

hifi_dave
28-10-2009, 11:32
Well done, Dave - here's to your next 300! :)

Incidentally, how efficient are the Monitor 40s and is it 12" drivers that they use?

Marco.

Marco,
Yes, 12 inches of Bextrene cone.

Alan Shaw prefers the term 'ease of drive' over efficiency. I and DSJR will confirm that even though their efficiency is quoted at 86 dB, they are a very easy load and we had no trouble at all driving them to quite high levls with DSJR's vintage Quad II's. I have used them with amps like the Rega Brio and Puresound A30 without any strain at all.

ATC have a similar spec for their speakers but they are pigs to get any meaningful sounds from them with small amps. All the Harbeth's are easy to drive and all work really well at low volume levels which is handy for most people with neighbours and/or kids in bed.

As for housing them - that is not so easy.:lolsign:

DSJR
28-10-2009, 14:28
The croft volume controls were at 1 o'clock for a reasonable listening level (the headbanging days are well over now) on the 40.1's, yet went over to 3 o'clock with the P3ESR's for approximately the same level.

Marco, Does the Spendor spec say *where* the speakers are 90db @ 1 watt? I remember the frequency range being a little lifted in the lower-mid bass and this may well have given the sensitivity figure you suggest. the BC2's I own are rated at 87db compared to the 83db BC1's, yet this figure is only really in the bass to midrange..

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/SpendorBCPlots.jpg

Above is an old trio of Spendor BC plots nicked from the Yahoo Spendor site. The BC1 bass-bump is obvious (bass on the left - mid bass at around 120Hz). The BC2 lacks this and keeps output up to the upper 100's of Hertz (higher soprano notes). Both exhibit the tweeter sparkle at 9 - 13Khz, which isn't unpleasant 'cos it's a basically well behaved tweeter and then things go awol when the little Coles super-tweeter takes over. The BC3 here looks much better (the mid driver was the BC2 bass unit give-or-take, and this model suffered only when thrashed, as 75W was about its limit before the crossover overloaded.

Marco
28-10-2009, 18:49
Marco, Does the Spendor spec say *where* the speakers are 90db @ 1 watt?


No idea, matey. I don't have any literature on them anymore... Perhaps check the website? Certainly BC1 and 2s are very different from SP100s. They use completely different drive units.

However, there's still a big difference between 86 and 90db overall. 86db efficiency in speakers is considered pretty low nowadays, especially in such large designs. I'd expect that figure with a pair of LS35as, or similar small stand-mounts.

Not to worry, obviously they're an easy load and in real world conditions go loud without the need for too much encouragement! :)

Marco.

Themis
28-10-2009, 18:58
No idea, matey. I don't have any literature on them anymore... Perhaps check the website? .
They are rated 90dB on the Softpedia : http://gadgets.softpedia.com/gadgets/Television-and-music/The-Spendor-SP100-Loudspeakers-6193.html

Marco
28-10-2009, 19:09
Interesting link, Dimitri :)

At some point, just out of curiosity, I'd love to hear the Monitor 40s to compare them with the SP100s, which I used happily for seven years and therefore know rather intimately.

It's all a bit immaterial though as the speakers I'm using now are a completely different ball game! :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
28-10-2009, 21:16
I'd respectfully suggest that the "radial" cone material used by Harbeth (interesting back story on its development) is superior to the polypropylene derivative used by Spendor in the midband. The SP100's were descended spiritually from the BC3.

The LS3/5a is around 83db/W IIRC and I can confirm that the difference on the volume control(s) between the 40.1 and the P3ESR is quite noticable (the baby Heco's are somewhere in between IIRC). Whatever, the P3's are beautifully sweet toned, if not exactly for loud reproduction of Massive Attack :lol:

hifi_dave
28-10-2009, 22:17
Interesting link, Dimitri :)

At some point, just out of curiosity, I'd love to hear the Monitor 40s to compare them with the SP100s, which I used happily for seven years and therefore know rather intimately.

It's all a bit immaterial though as the speakers I'm using now are a completely different ball game! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Well, I'm out of teabags right now following DSJR's visitation but you're welcome when I've been to Tesco.....:eyebrows:

Marco
29-10-2009, 00:06
We'll have to do it sometime, Dave, and of course you are more than welcome to fly up to North Wales and listen to me big 'ol Lockwood jelopies :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
29-10-2009, 10:53
Can I come too if I bring me own tea bags????? :D

We're so settled here I reckon that the next time I venture up the A5 and over that bridge bypassing Chirk (where we used to turn off into the Ceriog Valley so beloved of my childhood) will be for a funeral...................

hifi_dave
29-10-2009, 11:03
Always look on the bright side of life, da, da........:lolsign:

Cheer up you old sod.

Marco
29-10-2009, 11:14
Can I come too if I bring me own tea bags?????


You'll probably have to, Dave, as we rarely drink tea... Only joking, I'm sure we can find some tea bags lurking around somewhere ;)

Ceiriog Valley? It's our favourite spot! We love climbing up to the top of the Pistyll Rhaedr waterfall: http://www.pistyllrhaeadr.co.uk/

...Enjoying the spectacular views of the Ceiriog Valley from the top, then coming down and going for a well-earned spot of lunch at our favourite country pub:

http://www.thewestarms.co.uk/contact.html

The trout with almonds is to die for, as it's caught fresh from the river just across from the hotel! The local real ale is also superb!

I love North Wales - it's such a fabulous place to live :)

Marco.

DSJR
29-10-2009, 22:40
I had many wonderful family holidays in Nantyr, up the side from Glyn Ceiriog, until my aunt passed on in the early eighties. I still have family in Glyn and Pontfadog, although most are between Ruthin & Denbigh. I wasn't a beer drinker then sadly :( so missed all the ale available..