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Macca
26-10-2009, 10:55
Hi All

Hoping for a little advice - I have been toying with the idea of building some large, infinite baffle loudspeakers using a single, full range 12" driver. Exact size would depend on the drivers specs but there would need to be no need to compromise in that area, they can be as big as required.

My reasons for considering such a design are:

1) Bass quality from an optimally loaded 12'' driver cannot be beaten IMHO
2) No need for a crossover -

I once converted some old Acoustas cabinets into a small PA using a couple of cheap (£40 each) but modern full range units - it sounded fantastic (compared to what you might expect it would sound like) and would drive a good size hall. I had expected 'dullness' in the top end but there was none at all, and this opened my eyes a bit to full rangers as I had previously thought of them as old hat.

I would rather use modern drivers as opposed to vintage - I have had a time consuming and so far fruitless scout about on 'tinterweb - Is anyone able to point me in the right direction?

Thanks

Rare Bird
26-10-2009, 11:34
I was also considering this a while back, but find modern full range units poor quality, hence a fruitless mission.Vintage comes with el biggo price tag!

smithy
26-10-2009, 11:50
Maybe forget single drivers,look at some alternative ideas Geddes Summa desings,Bastanis,Hammer Dynamics for example.I was playing with some Altec 15"bass (803B)units at the weekend not expecting much they sounded much better than they had the right to just propped up against the wall.They certainly knew how to make things in the 60s cant wait to make up some baffles for them.

Rare Bird
26-10-2009, 12:08
Trouble with most vintage full range units is they are lacking top end, seem to excell in mids..

Macca
26-10-2009, 12:28
Maybe forget single drivers,look at some alternative ideas Geddes Summa desings,Bastanis,Hammer Dynamics for example.I was playing with some Altec 15"bass (803B)units at the weekend not expecting much they sounded much better than they had the right to just propped up against the wall.They certainly knew how to make things in the 60s cant wait to make up some baffles for them.

Thanks

Had a look at these options - the Hammer Dynamics look very interesting to me - the others not so much, I am unconvinced by Open Baffles but only becasue I know little about them - do they not need a subwoofer to boost the deeper bass - that is not a route I want to go down (subs I mean).

If I was going to build a commercial kit I would probably go for a big 3 way as I would not have to mess about with the crossover, it being supplied. But this gets too expensive with having six quality drivers to buy instead of two...

My system is not esoteric, is there nothing out there that 'will do the job' as it were?

John
26-10-2009, 12:47
The Open baffles are simple to build and bass sounds awesome on mine (drums kick and you still hear bass notes on the beat) They might be a few people closer to you that you could listen before you decide but you should try and listen to some Open Baffles first

Ali Tait
26-10-2009, 12:48
No lack of bass from OB's to my ears.Try asking Nick at Audio-Talk about his,using an Eminence Beta 12-inch and a Fostex full range.They sound great.Another choice may be the Sachiko double horns.These are a large cabinet,and use a Fostex 8-inch driver with a Fostex supertweeter.A huge sound and very sensitive too.

Macca
26-10-2009, 12:50
How about the Audio Nirvana range? The 'super 12' looks like it would suit. Anyone tried them?

Macca
26-10-2009, 12:59
No lack of bass from OB's to my ears.Try asking Nick at Audio-Talk about his,using an Eminence Beta 12-inch and a Fostex full range.They sound great.Another choice may be the Sachiko double horns.These are a large cabinet,and use a Fostex 8-inch driver with a Fostex supertweeter.A huge sound and very sensitive too.

So how do you tackle the return wave cancellation? I understand this is the main problem with OB. Sorry, I am not the most technical bloke! My room is long (29') and so I assume this would suit a dipole type? Baffles could not be much wider than 4 feet across though.

clive7164
26-10-2009, 13:03
I built cabinets with the above and am very pleased with the results. I used the plans from commonsence audio. They are doing 20% off at the moment if you are quick(till 1/11/09 I think)
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/

Clive Smith

Macca
26-10-2009, 13:26
I built cabinets with the above and am very pleased with the results. I used the plans from commonsence audio. They are doing 20% off at the moment if you are quick(till 1/11/09 I think)
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/

Clive Smith

What cabs did you use, Clive?

steve dixon
26-10-2009, 14:40
i'm with clive, i've already built the commonsenseaudio ambience cabinets and installed an 8" firing up and a 12" front firing audio nirvana drive units. i've had plenty of wammers and hifi fiends listen and not had a negative word, i also exhibited at scalford hall and had loads of very nice comments with many people leaving vowing to 'get stuck in' straight away.

i wouldn't consider buying a commercial pair of speakers ever again. if your anywhere near preston you can come and check them out, to get a better idea of what you might expect.

if you read the reviews on the common sense website you'll see them favourably compared to speakers costing many thousands of dollors, my rationale was that if 90% of that was bull then i'd still end up with speakers that would compare to a £5,000 pair of commercial speakers.

good luck
steve

Ali Tait
26-10-2009, 14:48
I'm no expert either! As I said,if you ask on the Audio-Talk forum,you will get all the help and info you need.Another good thing about these,you can get all the drivers for about 300 quid,and then all you need is a bit of birch ply.Nick has since added supertweeters,but these are not a fortune either.If it is a big sound you are after,I'd go for the sachiko horns,fantastic slam and attack from these.A pair of these with a 2w valve amp was more than enough to fill a 30 meter+ room at a previous diy meet.

Puffin
26-10-2009, 16:08
I have some of these that I picked up a few years ago for £25!!! They were hardly marked and so not used much. I intend to take the back off and run them like an open baffle with the 15"bass units run actively.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/saxonsex/image001-4.jpg

John
26-10-2009, 16:47
Sounds an intersting project

SPS
26-10-2009, 17:57
my view is vintage drivers are the way to go, but you need to know what you want..

the goodmans 201/301's fetch high prices for good reason, but they do need something at the top as previously said, the 201 more so than the 301
that can get expensive too, a good 98 db tweeter is not cheap.

the reason is they way they are made.. they are designed for less watts, so the voice coils are lighter, and shorter, and they have much less xmas ( forward and back movement) this means more of the the signal is converted to cone movement .. i'm not sure how much of advantage this is though in reality... i'm using some 600watt bass drivers and they work very well..

modern speakers including many 95 dbs+ ones stll are capable of taking 500 watts upwards.. in the pro music scene this is the fad..

the other point is the resonant freqency, many 12" pro speakers are around the 55 hz mark, The old goodmans are around the 30-35 hz mark as a comparison so will go slightly lower, the role off of a speaker is partly determained by this..
you can't win though, the higher the efficiency, the more the driver tends to role of the bass... and that's another can of worms how to get over that..



cheers
steve

Marco
26-10-2009, 18:47
Trouble with most vintage full range units is they are lacking top end, seem to excell in mids..

That can often be resolved by upgrading the crossover components. My Tannoy Monitor Golds were a little like that with the original crossovers, but opened up massively with new caps, resistors and inductors in place of the old stuff :)

Now there is sparkle and clarity at the top end to die for. It was like having a completely new pair of speakers!

Marco.

Macca
26-10-2009, 19:56
Well I've e-mailed for a price on some Audio Nirvana 12 '' as these seem to be exactly the sort of drivers I had in mind.

I may well go with their Open Baffle design as this will be a really straightforward build and if I don't like it I can always put the drivers into a full enclosure instead.

I'll report as and when...

Cheers all:gig:

Ali Tait
26-10-2009, 21:29
I've heard the smaller Nirvana drivers in OB's and they are very good.I think you'd be happy with them.

Stratmangler
26-10-2009, 21:45
No lack of bass from OB's to my ears.Try asking Nick at Audio-Talk about his,using an Eminence Beta 12-inch and a Fostex full range.They sound great.Another choice may be the Sachiko double horns.These are a large cabinet,and use a Fostex 8-inch driver with a Fostex supertweeter.A huge sound and very sensitive too.

I agree - Nick's OB's sound great.

The Sachiko's are unbelievably good - I heard them driven by a 6em7 single ended amp (1 watt output) and they did everything effortlessly. Hearing them playing seriously heavy rock was a revelation. The only thing I can say against the Sachiko's is that to call them large is an understatement - IMO they're bloody enormous.

Chris:)

Macca
26-10-2009, 21:49
I agree - Nick's OB's sound great.

The Sachiko's are unbelievably good - I heard them driven by a 6em7 single ended amp (1 watt output) and they did everything effortlessly. Hearing them playing seriously heavy rock was a revelation. The only thing I can say against the Sachiko's is that to call them large is an understatement - IMO they're bloody enormous.

Chris:)

Yes - I did think initially that size would not be an object (big room/no WAF) but I suppose a limiting factor would be getting them through the front door should I ever decide to move house...

Stratmangler
26-10-2009, 21:56
Yes - I did think initially that size would not be an object (big room/no WAF) but I suppose a limiting factor would be getting them through the front door should I ever decide to move house...

I am led to believe that you can get a pair into a VW Golf Estate with the rear seat dropped. So they're not absobloodylutelyenormous, but they are very big when compare to miniscule speakers like PMC OB1's.

Chris:)

Macca
26-10-2009, 22:08
I am led to believe that you can get a pair into a VW Golf Estate with the rear seat dropped. So they're not absobloodylutelyenormous, but they are very big when compare to miniscule speakers like PMC OB1's.

Chris:)

Tried to find a piccie of them but no luck - Anyway horn loaded bass is out - I had some Lowthers briefly years ago and they are not for me - I don't like that 'hollow' bass effect and I don't play any Classical music - I'm not a headbanger either mind... well, not any more.

I've always been in the infinite baffle camp with regards to 'best' bass reproduction even though my current 'speakers, like almost everything else commercial, have ported cabs.

Stratmangler
26-10-2009, 22:26
Hi Martin

There is a thread devoted to the build of the Sachiko's here (http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1455).

Chris:)

Macca
26-10-2009, 22:30
Hi Martin

There is a thread devoted to the build of the Sachiko's here (http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1455).

Chris:)

Cheers Chris - they are certainly some serious 'shock and awe' 'speakers!

sondale
28-10-2009, 21:17
Hi,

Have a look at Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris units, designed for OB use specifically. They are extremely good - I bought a pair and put them in a double-skinned baffle.

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/

Alan

aquapiranha
28-10-2009, 22:41
Cheers Chris - they are certainly some serious 'shock and awe' 'speakers!

Indeed they are. I happen to have a pair here going spare, not nicely finished if anyone has a big car or van, they are welcome to them!


:)

TerryO
01-11-2009, 15:39
Tried to find a piccie of them but no luck - Anyway horn loaded bass is out - I had some Lowthers briefly years ago and they are not for me - I don't like that 'hollow' bass effect and I don't play any Classical music - I'm not a headbanger either mind... well, not any more.

I've always been in the infinite baffle camp with regards to 'best' bass reproduction even though my current 'speakers, like almost everything else commercial, have ported cabs.

I never liked the sound of the older Lowthers, at least those that I had heard. However, at the last VSAC (Valve State of the Art Conference) in Vancouver, Washinton, Jon VerHalen (Lowther America) had a pair of Lowther open baffle speakers with mid-bass duties below 200Hz handled by Tone Tubby 16 ohm woofers. I believe that he used a 1st order crossover. They were in the neighborhood of 95-96dB sensitivity and sounded very nice indeed. To be fair about it, he did use a Hartley 24 (or was it 18 inch?) subwoofer for the deep bass, but the sound was absolutely spendid.
Here's several links to the VSAC coverage:
[Edit: The last link doesn't seem to work anymore, sorry]

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/vsac_2008/

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=54959.msg491672;topicseen

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/vsac20082/vsac.htm

Best Regards,
TerryO

SPS
01-11-2009, 23:22
I never liked the sound of the older Lowthers, at least those that I had heard. However, at the last VSAC (Valve State of the Art Conference) in Vancouver, Washinton, Jon VerHalen (Lowther America) had a pair of Lowther open baffle speakers with mid-bass duties below 200Hz handled by Tone Tubby 16 ohm woofers. I believe that he used a 1st order crossover. They were in the neighborhood of 95-96dB sensitivity and sounded very nice indeed. To be fair about it, he did use a Hartley 24 (or was it 18 inch?) subwoofer for the deep bass, but the sound was absolutely spendid.
Here's several links to the VSAC coverage:
[Edit: The last link doesn't seem to work anymore, sorry]

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/vsac_2008/

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=54959.msg491672;topicseen

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/vsac20082/vsac.htm

Best Regards,
TerryO

To be fair terry, having had many pairs of lowthers, is there is nothing wrong with the driver, its just that by far the largest proportion of lowther drivers you will hear have inaproprate back horns, that usually combine some large dips in the upper bass, very noticeable colourations from the horn enclosure, and in most cases too short a horn, which results in a forward sound with a lack of body/read bass, but that does not mean that there is no good back horns.. but i have not heard a really good one yet...
Sachiko's and few more of the like get very close.

on the other hand with the driver supported in the bass and lower mids it is possible to get an evenish response and a very good sound. with a total lack of colouration,

i can imagine the sound you heard as i'm sure it was very similar to the sound of my baffles except the for the lack of detail and scale compared to the ex4 , but more in the bass with that sub, i have owned pm6's in the past.

cheers
steve

Tolstoi
20-12-2009, 10:41
Hi,

Have a look at Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris units, designed for OB use specifically. They are extremely good - I bought a pair and put them in a double-skinned baffle.

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/

Alan

Hi,
wanted to recommend them as well. Using them for about one and a half years now and don't want to go back.

Joerg