View Full Version : How Do I Tame My Bright System?
Hello audio people. My system is on the bright side. I want to tame it. I could do with some opinions and advice please.
Here's the detail:
Smallish room with wooden floors and somewhat lacking in furniture. Not ideal I know.
Kit: Rotel RA05 amp, SB3 plugged into Beresford Caiman, QED Silver anniversary cables, PMC FB1+ speakers.
I've been upgrading (hence the unlikely match of PMC and Rotel).
Aside from furnishings...
Will a more gutsy amp help 'bass things up a bit' (I've been considering an arcam P85)?
Should I consider different leads, and if so, which ones?
Any other suggestions?
Cheers
Simon
Hi Simon.
Difficult to comment without being there, but it sounds like a fundamental mismatch of gear. Cable swapping may help a bit but it's not tackling the real problem. A few rugs might be better.
When you upgrade do you listen to the stuff before buying?
Stratmangler
24-10-2009, 23:40
Hi Simon
How small a room is smallish ?
Chris:)
Spectral Morn
24-10-2009, 23:43
Replace the QED silver A cable to start with try Van Den Hul or QED XT300.
Regards D S D L
technobear
24-10-2009, 23:54
Hello audio people. My system is on the bright side. I want to tame it. I could do with some opinions and advice please.
Here's the detail:
Smallish room with wooden floors and somewhat lacking in furniture. Not ideal I know.
Kit: Rotel RA05 amp, SB3 plugged into Beresford Caiman, QED Silver anniversary cables, PMC FB1+ speakers.
I've been upgrading (hence the unlikely match of PMC and Rotel).
:doh:
Thank you all...
Dalek - I shall look into your suggestions, thanks.
Technobear - you fink it's the cable then? lol
Strat - um say about 4m x 4.5m ish.
Alb - I accept your point; there may indeed be a mismatch (indeed I would be surprised if this were not the case, given the price differentials). By means of explanation, my recent purchase of the PMCs is the foundation of further upgrades. My previous speakers, Quad 11Ls, were also bright in the system.
Simon
I agree, Chris, nasty things, IME... In Simon's system I'd definitely ditch the QEDs and go for some cables from Mark Grant, as they have less of a defined sonic signature (more neutral/transparent) and are better balanced as a result: extremely cost-effective, too!
But there could also be other more fundamental issues that need addressed. I'd like to know how Simon has attended to things like stands and mains ancillaries. What type of mains leads does he use? How is he powering the system - does he use a separate spur, etc?
Also, like Al says, does he listen to gear together as a system first before he buys it? This is where Ebay system-building is fraught with problems and the services of a good dealer are invaluable :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
25-10-2009, 00:10
Hi Simon
I'm running standmount speakers in a room slightly larger than yours. You simply may not have sufficient room to let your speakers develop the bottom end of things.
You are closer to near field monitoring than you are far field monitoring.
Chris:)
Oh dear Marco, this is where I fear I shall be judged and found wanting...
The PMCs were indeed an ebay purchase. However it was not a random decision, but one informed by having auditioned a wide number of speakers (including PMC FB1, GB1 and DB1 with similar Rotel amps (RA series) and my own Dac, albeit it not in my listening environment.
As for mains leaders, conditioners, and so forth - no, nothing special, just whatever has come with the system. And no Spurs.. I'm an Orient fan ;)
Simon
Well, if I were you, I would try to position my speakers in a different way, to start with.
If they are parallel to the side walls, try pitching them towards the listening position. Try even crossing their sight line in front of the listening position.
If they already face the listening position, try to position them parallel to the walls.
Try different distances from behind, as well as from the sides.
In any case, if you have a real problem (several dBs of difference in certain frequencies), I doubt any change of interconnects could change this... And I doubt any change of amplifier would do much either. This kind of problem is typically a room/speaker placement problem imho.
I know it sounds strange, but most systems with uncontrolled mid-bass frequencies (too much of it) sound bright. So, probably, controlling mid-lows is more rewarding than trying to control mid-highs or highs. ;)
jandl100
25-10-2009, 09:01
Just get rid of the QED SA cables to start with. That really is bright and nasty and I suspect is the main cause by far of your issues. Marco's suggestion of Mark Grant is good, although I must confess I do find that a little on the upfront side (sorry Marco ;)), but nowhere near as much as the QED SA.
I use the Silver High Breed speaker cables and find them excellent - http://silverhighbreed.com/ - great folks to deal with, too. :)
It's all been said before I give my tuppence worth, but the SA cables are the absolute pits and even eight years ago were totally outclassed. You can blame sevenoaks HiFi for QED's continuing popularity. Wifey wants a thin cable, WTF in their continuing ignorance gave it awards year on year, so the average box-shifting Sevenoaks branch (many of 'em used to be) sells this cable by the bucketload.......
PMC "+" models have a smoother tweeter I understand, but the earlier ones needed a heavy gauge copper cable. Sevenoaks Guildford, who "listened," recommended the chunky Cable-Talk Concert wires, and these always sorted out the FB1, but as they're no longer made, you'll have to find a chunky equivalent.
Neil, do Atlas make a heavy gauge speaker cable? I only know the sort-of dumbell types they did.
Careful choice of interconnects should help too. I haven't yet tried the mark Grant ones 'cos I make my own now, but if you know someone with a powerful soldering iron, the Ecoflex 10 coax cable shoehorned into large-body phono plugs makes a superb and very refined sounding cable, with a lack of treble "splatter."
Transmission-line speakers seem to need a very high degree of control in the amp - high damping factor much higher than the HFW recommended "40." PMC use Bryston amps in the design process, so if you're keeping the PMC's a 3B or similar would be a good move. Not popular here, but the later AVI "Lab series" integrated would be another perfect choice for £750 or thereabouts used.
Lecture over ;)
hifi_dave
25-10-2009, 09:51
The QED cables are nasty and splashy but I don't believe they are the sole cause of this system's poor sound. I would also take a look at an amp, less sterile and uninvolving than the Rotel. Something with a more solid and warmer balance.
Personally, I would ditch those cables ASAP and then start treating the room with some soft furnishings, curtains and/or absorbent panels and the like. You won't get anywhere with the mid/high frequencies bouncing all over the place.:doh:
technobear
25-10-2009, 09:57
Thick copper is probably the answer. It's that or pure silver if you can afford it. Silver plated copper is best avoided in my experience.
Van Damme's UP-LCOFC is a good thick copper cable (scroll to the bottom of the page):
http://www.vdctrading.com/products.asp?SubSectionID=1&Page=3#p17
I still have some of this in a drawer. I ought to dig it out and move it on.
Spectral Morn
25-10-2009, 09:58
It's all been said before I give my tuppence worth, but the SA cables are the absolute pits and even eight years ago were totally outclassed. You can blame sevenoaks HiFi for QED's continuing popularity. Wifey wants a thin cable, WTF in their continuing ignorance gave it awards year on year, so the average box-shifting Sevenoaks branch (many of 'em used to be) sells this cable by the bucketload.......
PMC "+" models have a smoother tweeter I understand, but the earlier ones needed a heavy gauge copper cable. Sevenoaks Guildford, who "listened," recommended the chunky Cable-Talk Concert wires, and these always sorted out the FB1, but as they're no longer made, you'll have to find a chunky equivalent.
Neil, do Atlas make a heavy gauge speaker cable? I only know the sort-of dumbell types they did.
Careful choice of interconnects should help too. I haven't yet tried the mark Grant ones 'cos I make my own now, but if you know someone with a powerful soldering iron, the Ecoflex 10 coax cable shoehorned into large-body phono plugs makes a superb and very refined sounding cable, with a lack of treble "splatter."
Transmission-line speakers seem to need a very high degree of control in the amp - high damping factor much higher than the HFW recommended "40." PMC use Bryston amps in the design process, so if you're keeping the PMC's a 3B or similar would be a good move. Not popular here, but the later AVI "Lab series" integrated would be another perfect choice for £750 or thereabouts used.
Lecture over ;)
No not really. They are all similar in dimension once you get past the cheap thin cable its just the material that changes between them. Rotel Supra would be worth looking at as would QED XT300 which is much fuller bodied than the Anniversary. Mark Grant might be an option but as I have not heard it I can't really comment, same with Black Mamba. I think you need to try cables at home before you buy any.
Okay I am reluctant to go much beyond the cables, but I will. I would expect this system to be bright and in your face...without hearing it. Solid state amp, a very open detailed digital front end PMC's and an empty room with bright sound reflecting minimal lay out and lack of damping.
1 The room is very live and lacking damping of any sort by the sounds of it (photos would be helpful here). Putting carpet down or a very large heavy rug down will help. Placing wall hangings on the side walls or and back wall too is also a good option. Or bookcases with a mixture of books, cds etc.
2 The QED is responsible for a lot of whats wrong. Replacing it with a warmer cable will help a bit...however ultimately the balance will be wrong, because you would be using the cable as a tone control to try and compensate for the overly lively room acoustics. The best compromise is a neutral room with a balanced acoustic and a system balance that sits on the neutrality fence or sides slightly to the warm or cool side, but only by a little. I prefer the warmer side to cool.
3 A valve amplifier of enough power would also help, but my gut feeling is the room is poor and this along with the QED cable is pushing things the wrong way.
Positioning of speakers and suitability of the room for the size of the speakers is a hard one to comment on with out seeing some photos.
Regards D S D L
Thanks Neil.
You know, until ten years or so ago, people used to furnish their rooms in such a way that voices sounded fairly natural when speaking to each other. These days, every one wants to live in an echo-chamber/bathroom with bare walls and floors and nothing to make the rooms inviting and "homely..." That's how it seems to me anyway.
Spectral Morn
25-10-2009, 10:44
Thanks Neil.
You know, until ten years or so ago, people used to furnish their rooms in such a way that voices sounded fairly natural when speaking to each other. These days, every one wants to live in an echo-chamber/bathroom with bare walls and floors and nothing to make the rooms inviting and "homely..." That's how it seems to me anyway.
Modern room layout and design makes these rooms very HARD to work with. Its the wood floor, bare walls and no ornaments (they say clutter..I say personality) that makes these rooms acoustically bad/poor. This in conjunction with small size and wrong dimensions.
I hate modern room design ....I am more Victorian/Bohemian in that respect. The rooms in our home show personality, interests and look like real people live in them.... A house is a HOME not a Show Room/House.
Regards D S D L
A house is a HOME not a Show Room/House.
Why does this reminds me of another thread... and room correction... ? :lolsign:
Hi Jerry,
Marco's suggestion of Mark Grant is good, although I must confess I do find that a little on the upfront side (sorry Marco ;)), but nowhere near as much as the QED SA.
There's nowt to apologise for, matey. You hear what you hear in your system :)
The MG's are in no way upfront or bright in my system, instead just very transparent and lacking in any obvious sonic signature (they just let the music flow through naturally), which is all I look for in a cable. I never use cables as tone controls - it's a big mistake to do so. I'm not saying you do either, incidentally! :smoking:
I think it's obvious that the QED cables have to go, as we all have the same opinion of them based on experience. I don't think that replacing them with something else is introducing a tone control effect, but rather removing an obvious forward sounding sonic signature which doesn't belong in the music signal.
I think that some component changes would be beneficial, as Dave has outlined, but I'm a great believer in making the most of what you've got and getting to hear it properly first before changing it for something else. It's the only way of knowing whether the problems exist with the equipment itself, how it's set-up and what ancillaries are used to good effect or not, or the influence the room is having - or indeed a combination of all three.
Only when having addressed the above to the best of your ability would I then start to change any components. The fact is, it's only once the system has been given an optimal as possible platform to operate from, that one can then understand what it is doing, isolate the individual sonic effect of each component, and then make the right changes if necessary to fundamentally improve matters.
That's the right way to do the job to ensure that Simon doesn't end up going round in circles, spending lots of money 'fixing' the wrong things!
Marco.
Spectral Morn
25-10-2009, 11:28
Why does this reminds me of another thread... and room correction... ? :lolsign:
Because everything is interlinked....;):lol::lolsign:
Regards D S D L
Gosh what a good response to my query, thank you all.
There will be a limit to what I can do with the room given it is one of the main living rooms and a happy marriage is important to me.
I will play with speaker placement (though with low expectation of radical improvement) and I will definitely try out some alternative cables - both speaker and interconnects (these are also QED). I'm grateful to you all for your suggestions on specific brands and type. And further strong recommendations are welcome.
I think I'll hold fire on the amp upgrade for the timebeing, although the long term plan is definitely to upgrade as funds permit.
Cheers
Simon
Spectral Morn
25-10-2009, 11:32
Gosh what a good response to my query, thank you all.
There will be a limit to what I can do with the room given it is one of the main living rooms and a happy marriage is important to me.
I will play with speaker placement (though with low expectation of radical improvement) and I will definitely try out some alternative cables - both speaker and interconnects (these are also QED). I'm grateful to you all for your suggestions on specific brands and type. And further strong recommendations are welcome.
I think I'll hold fire on the amp upgrade for the timebeing, although the long term plan is definitely to upgrade as funds permit.
Cheers
Simon
Hi Simon
Some photos of your room etc would help us all add to our advice...and hone it.
Regards D S D L
Because everything is interlinked....;):lol::lolsign:
Regards D S D L
Perhaps if Simon posts some pics with Mr Ma's (is it the name?) system we could have some joyful weekend confli... errr... conversation ? :lol:
Spectral Morn
25-10-2009, 11:36
Perhaps if Simon posts some pics with Mr Ma's (is it the name?) system we could have some joyful weekend confli... errr... conversation ? :lol:
Now thats cheeky you little imp ;):lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Its hard to give absolute advice without being there, but photos can give visual information which can identify any issues that not seeing it does not do. Seeing photos will help me for one to identify any issues and give better advice.
Regards D S D L
making the most of what you've got and getting to hear it properly first before changing it for something else. It's the only way of knowing whether the problems exist with the equipment itself, how it's set-up and what ancillaries are used to good effect or not, or the influence the room is having - or indeed a combination of all three.
Only when having addressed the above to the best of your ability would I then start to change any components. The fact is, it's only once the system has been given an optimal as possible platform to operate from, that one can then understand what it is doing, isolate the individual sonic effect of each component, and then make the right changes if necessary to fundamentally improve matters.
That's the right way to do the job to ensure that Simon doesn't end up going round in circles, spending lots of money 'fixing' the wrong things!
Marco.
So true ! I completely agree. This is imho article #1 for a better sound bible.
I should print it and wrap my credit card with it... ;)
The rooms in our home show personality, interests and look like real people live in them.... A house is a HOME not a Show Room/House.
Nice one, Neil - I completely agree!
Blame WAF for the kind of nonsense that houses should look like showrooms. Too many women, once they've got hold of their 'nest', through marriage or not, see it as something to show off to their friends and relatives by maintaining it in an obsessive way like some sort of show house. There appears to be an inbuilt mechanism in the female psyche that makes many of them behave in this ridiculous way.
I've never understood the notion of having a 'special room' in the house for guests, which lies unused all the rest of the time... What a bloody waste of a space! :mental:
Homes should be 'lived in', with people coming into your house taking you as they find you, even if that means there's a few cat hairs or a tiny bit of dust lying around. Of course keep things clean, but don't obsess about it. Like you, our lounge is full of ornaments and antiques - lots of 'clutter', but just like you say it's precisely this which gives your home its character and stamps your personality on it.
So I say "boo" to 'clinical' looking homes, devoid of warmth or personality - in general, they can also make your hi-fi system sound crap!
Marco.
Hi Simon,
The SB3 based system can sound bright but works great once it's sorted.
My initial hit list would be:
SB3 to Caiman cable. I use a 1.5m long Mark Grant Spdif which took some digital hash out for me when I used to use a phono cable.
Mains supply. Dedecated supply I'm afraid as this does add some smoothness to the sound and sometimes tames a fizzy treble.
Unplugging and plugging cables a few times to clean connectors and plugs.
Can you loan a different amp from friends or a dealer to see if you can find the sound you like?
Regards
This is perhaps a bit daft, but cheap to do - get some cable-ferrites and try them on the mains leads as they come from the supply-plugs. They don't cost much each and I found that they helped a little in a bad-mains situation.
Interestingly, I never found QED's interconnects to sound constricted, unlike the SA speaker cable. Indeed, before the internet, Qnect/Qnex 2 was a great £30 wire, the low profit margin preventing us from selling it in preference to Chord Cobra, which had nearly double the margin and sold for more anyway...
hifi_dave
25-10-2009, 13:11
We're still not sure what the room is like. If it's bare and hard as the initial post suggests (to me anyway), then any tinkering around with cable and accessories is unlikely to improve the sound sufficiently to make it listenable.
Get a rug, get some curtains and a few cushions, it doesn't have to be cluttered, just furnished !!!
Agreed. Simon, can we please see a photograph of the room? :)
Marco.
ok I'm struggling with the technology here but i think i've attached the image. Not sure how I get it to automatically come up. It's just from the phone so sorry if it's not too clear.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=778&d=1256478611
Taken from a high angle to give an overview about the room.
Simon
Well it ain't as sparce as i imagined it to be.
The speakers bass vents are aiming straight into the side of some furniture, which isn't ideal but may not account for the brightness. I would expect a full bass sound with the speakers tucked into the alcoves.
I'm not familiar with the amp, but if its anything like the earlier ones there was tendency toward a hard sound.
As a temporary measure you could try a higher value resistor inline with the tweeter to tame it a little. But not everyone wants to do this sort of thing.
All my humble opinion of course.
hifi_dave
25-10-2009, 14:24
Nowhere near as empty as I imagined it was.
Just for the sake of completeness and because it's easy, try closing the curtains and spread a blanket or duvet or two over the wooden floor to see if that has an effect. If it does, that will give you a clue as to what is necessary.
You do still need to get rid of those splash inducing, sibilance enhancing cables though.:eyebrows:
Steve Toy
25-10-2009, 15:09
A couple of things:
Brightness is rarely caused by "too much treble." The cause is usually distortion at higher frequencies which is the result of a number of factors:
Polluted mains especially from switch-mode power supplies.
Microphony - mechanical energy within the components that is not rapidly disipated and transfered to heat. The source of this is internal vibration of moving parts - CD transport mechaism and of course the sound emerging from your speakers.
Good isolation is the key.
Ensure your cables and interconnects are not touching the walls or each other and that speaker cables are pulled away from skirting boards.
Lastly, move your rack out of that alcove - alcoves are terrible energy traps.
The Vinyl Adventure
25-10-2009, 15:46
I have pmc fb1+ speakers. They are in alcoves with the racks also in the alcoves, they are only a couple if feet away from the side of the sofas. I don't have any issues with brightness.
I replaced my qed sa with nva ls1 which opened up the sound - sa made it sound very restricted.
Spectral Morn
25-10-2009, 16:50
Ummmmmmmmmmmm???????:confused: I too am surprised at how un-empty your room is. While Steve is right to a degree I still think the room acoustics are to blame, as is the QED cable (I agree with Dave DSJR Qed Qnec2 is a fantastic £30 interconnect). However the Rotel amp might also be part of the equation, but not having heard one in years I am not sure of this but they used to be edgy, lean and lacking in weight scale and warmth.
Try putting a large rug down in front of the speakers.
Whats on the wall opposite the speakers ? Could you take a 360 degree photo of the room just to give a complete picture. How high is the ceiling? Are all the walls solid or are any plaster board. Is your floor on concrete or suspended ? There may be a frequency sink in the room that is robbing the bass midrange. From the photo I would say you would have excessive bass boom and the other frequencies are a bit muddled, but thats not the case so something is robbing the sound of its fullness....question is what ?
Regards D S D L
Can I continue with Steve Toy's suggestion about "too much treble?"
Too much treble can also mean too little bass (or severe cancellations in this region). I must admit that my dem experiences of FB1's in past years have usually had them pulled well out from room boundaries to let them "breathe." Room corners can be a right pain with ANY speaker I've found.
As Steve says above, if the QUALITY of treble isn't good, then this is really annoying, whereas a bit of bass distortion like you usually get from LP records is very tolerable, if not preferred to the neutral, if slightly "bleached out" tone of some CD's..
Silly question, but are the speakers in phase? Run the SA cables (while you have them) with the writing going back to the amp - silly I know, but I remember the sound not being quite so harsh that way..
Lastly, if you don't have a copy, buy "Protection" by Massive Attack. The bass is awsome, powerful, tuneful and very deep. The bass lines should almost push you into the back wall without booming (one area my Spendors are traditionally weak in)..
Good luck with the room and system tweaks. The FB1's are definitely worth it I think..
I agree, Simon's room certainly isn't as sparse as I had imagined. There have been some good suggestions so far chaps, so keep them coming :)
One quick point I'd make is that the equipment is currently located on a steel rack with glass shelves.
It may seem rather ironic (as a Mana user) to be critical of steel racks with glass shelves (!), but with all the years of experience I've had with stands, I've never had good results with any, other than Mana (and there are valid reasons for this), which use those types of materials.
Steel and glass racks (certainly the less expensive variety) generally make for a rather forward, etched sound, which I'm almost certain will be contributing to the bright sounding results from his system that Simon is reporting.
Therefore, one thing I'd recommend that he tries as soon as possible is to go along to his local branch of Ikea and obtain one of the inexpensive 'Lack' range of AV storage tables (or even one of the coffee tables) and try this instead of his current rack. I'm sure that they're no more than £30 or so. I'm confident that this would offer a significant improvement.
I'd certainly be interested in finding out for sure what this does. If Simon liked the effect, he could probably sell his existing rack, which looks to be fairly new and in good condition, for at least what he paid for the Lack table, or perhaps even make a profit :cool:
I'm sure doing that, and changing his cables to something more neutral sounding, would go some way to eliminating his current problem.
Right - must dash!
Laters,
Marco.
Good point.
I was surprised at the difference when i replaced my glass shelves with 12mm MDF.
Hi Simon,
Lots of suggestions going on here; enough to overwhelm you. I also get the impression you'd prefer not to spend too much. So, in the first instance, I agree with others, take out your QED speaker cables. To keep it cheap whilst experimenting, replace with some solid core twin and earth mains cable. Believe it or not, for some this is their cable of choice! Whatever, make sure you use copper without a hint of silver around. Likewise with your interconnects, if any of them have silver in them, exchange for something with copper only conductors.
Do that first. Don't mess about with your room for now apart from speaker positioning (if you wish) and then report back your results.
Are you up for some DIY cable making? If so, we can keep your options cheap.
Do what I suggest and we can take it from there. Hopefully this should not need to be a difficult or expensive correction.
Regards,
Greg
Hi Simon - after DSJR "kicked me into touch" (;)) for having QED SA, I bought some Mark Grant Belden speaker cable - read all about it on this thread - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3560 (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3560) (Post 7 onwards, though why not try a mains conditioner too, at the price?) - ditching the QED SA definitely improved my system, and as it is so cheap for the distances you will need, I would 100% suggest you do that first, before worrying about anything else.
My tuppence ha'penny:
Cables do make a difference but not that much of a difference; however it is a relatively cheap change to make so why not try it and see...
Quality 'speakers will only re-produce what you feed them and I do not think that the cause of your dissatisfaction is that the sound is 'too bright' rather (as Steve pointed out) that there is too much noise and distortion in the sound 'as a whole'.
I had the top of the range Rotel integrated from their last range (circa 2003) and it was certainly not bright or edgy in my system - in fact 'over smooth and slightly bland' is how I would have described it. I sold it to a pal who uses it with some small Ruark floorstanders and in that combination it is an excellent sounding amp.
What I am saying is - your amp is just not good enough for the 'speakers.
You need to sort out a more suitable amp - anything else is just tinkering round the edges.
Regards
Martin
Peter Stockwell
26-10-2009, 08:36
Do you have curtains, carpet and armchairs ?
hifi_dave
26-10-2009, 09:12
Do you have curtains, carpet and armchairs ?
See post number 31....:doh:
Thanks again everyone. I'm very impressed with the readiness of members to engage and the thoughtfulness of your responses.
I accept the point some of your have made about the quality of the amp. You'll see from my earlier posts that it's the next stage of the upgrade as an when funds permit.
I shall first try new cables - it's a very modest cost that offers potential benefit - and I fear I may be slung out of the forum if I persist with QED SAs, such is the depth of feeling against them ;)
Thereafter I will look at other cabling and an alternative stand (I never liked this one, but was taught to never look a gift horse in the mouth).
I'll report my findings back to the forum.
Simon
Peter Stockwell
26-10-2009, 13:42
Thereafter I will look at other cabling and an alternative stand (I never liked this one, but was taught to never look a gift horse in the mouth).
Think of Troy!
I would try the following:-
1) Ditch QED XT cables, I've owned them and they do not do bass.
2) Move speakers out to a spot which sits infront of the rack and close to each side of your rug. This will get the speakers clear of the side and rear walls (and out of the alcoves) and reduce the peaks.
3) move your rack into the corner, this will break up bass nodes/nulls. Try and throw something else in the other corner too.
4) Move 1 speaker 1cm at a time either towards or away from you.. this sometimes will reduce treble peaks by quite a bit
5) angle/toe in speakers. this will reduce sidewall reflections
6) Choose other equipment that is less forward sounding (I'm looking at you caimen dac)
7) Try Speltz Anti-cables , these tend to roll off extreme top end peaks and has worked for me in the past with monitor audio brightness
Hope that helps.
technobear
26-10-2009, 15:03
...I fear I may be slung out of the forum if I persist with QED SAs...
Not just this forum either :lol:
That stuff is so harsh.
Thereafter I will look at other cabling and an alternative stand (I never liked this one, but was taught to never look a gift horse in the mouth).
There are some simple things to try here to establish the effect of the stand. Take a bunch of magazines or newspapers and place them between the kit and the glass and have a listen. It may be that you could add something to the stand rather than changing the stand. Granite chopping boards on rubber or felt sticky pads would be one idea and pretty cheap to do.
6) Choose other equipment that is less forward sounding (I'm looking at you caimen dac)Objection, your honor ! :lol:
(it's a joke, that's true that the Caiman won't make things easier. ;) )
Steve Toy
26-10-2009, 15:24
7) Try Speltz Anti-cables , these tend to roll off extreme top end peaks and has worked for me in the past with monitor audio brightness
Masking the problem will be a step backwards.
I used to have a rack just like that and a friend has just got one exactly the same. He's actually reporting a warmer and deeper sound. Brightness tends to be an issue when you overtighten the rods to the shelves. Try taking it apart and reassembling it finger-tight only.
technobear
26-10-2009, 15:39
6) Choose other equipment that is less forward sounding (I'm looking at you caimen dac)
Why?
The Caiman is spot on neutral.
Perhaps yours isn't run in yet. It really does take 200 hours!
I don't own one but the short time I heard it I noticed it was slightly more forward in the upper mids and had quite a bit less bass than my Primare CDP and Havana DAC. This was while it was A/B tested by the way.
I'm not knocking it , I'm just saying that its balance may be more forward than the OP likes.
technobear
26-10-2009, 16:35
I don't own one but the short time I heard it I noticed it was slightly more forward in the upper mids and had quite a bit less bass than my Primare CDP and Havana DAC. This was while it was A/B tested by the way.
I'm not knocking it , I'm just saying that its balance may be more forward than the OP likes.
Yep, that sounds exactly like a freshly minted Caiman :lol:
They take 200 hours to settle down to a neutral performance.
Primalsea
27-10-2009, 20:18
I think Greg has a a point try some cheap twin and earth as speaker cable first before spending money.
But first play around with moving your speakers even if you just try them in a wife objecting position to see what different they make. Its free!!
Someone mentioned ferrites which are a good idea but they are ineffective on the Hifi mains leads IMHO. Ferrites should be used at the source such as the Kettle lead, Boiler lead, Frdige & Freezer etc. PC, All modern TV screens and even DVD players have switch mode supplies and sticking ferrites on th emains leads of these is a good idea. Hfi needs to get rid of interference by dumping it on the earth. Ferrites can stop this happening effectively.
Also have you made sure your speakers leads are NOT WIRED OUT OF PHASE. I think this is something we have all done, although I'm sure others will deny it.
Hey, ferrites are so inexpensive, stick 'em on EVERYTHING :lol:
I haven't gone too mad, but each mains block feeding the TV racks around the house have at least two ferrites on them. To be fair, we have good mains here and even with everything on, the sound doesn't seem too troubled IMO.
Also have you made sure your speakers leads are NOT WIRED OUT OF PHASE. I think this is something we have all done, although I'm sure others will deny it.
It happened to me twice. The first time it took me 3 hours to find out "where did the #£%ing bass go ?", the second time, it took 10 seconds. :doh:
OOT: Also, once (in a shop) the guy had inverted L/R channels. I told him that the music was "clearly too forward". He objected that "the speakers were not burned-in" (the brand new SonusFaber). I told him it was "impossible: SFs don't sound like this, even not burned-in", then asked whether the amp was not faulty. He ended up wiring things correctly.
The way brain interprets musical instrument positioning is a strange thing. ;)
The one thing I cannot stand is speakers out of phase with each other. I get a funny sort of "pressure" in my ears and it almost hurts..
Primalsea
27-10-2009, 21:07
Hey, ferrites are so inexpensive, stick 'em on EVERYTHING :lol:
I haven't gone too mad, but each mains block feeding the TV racks around the house have at least two ferrites on them. To be fair, we have good mains here and even with everything on, the sound doesn't seem too troubled IMO.
Fair point Dave!:)
Also have you made sure your speakers leads are NOT WIRED OUT OF PHASE. I think this is something we have all done, although I'm sure others will deny it.
Yep, been there, done that - then one day I was shown how to face the speakers together, and test for phase - and even though I may be sure I wired them right, it is still something I habitually do...
Also have you made sure your speakers leads are NOT WIRED OUT OF PHASE. I think this is something we have all done, although I'm sure others will deny it.
Been there, done that. Mind you those particular speakers didn't sound too clever even after I'd wired them correctly.
hifi_dave
27-10-2009, 23:32
In my experience, speaker phase appears to trouble some people more than others. Like DSJR, out of phase almost pulls my head apart and is most uncomfortable but for some it is barely discernable. Why is that ?..:scratch:
In my experience, speaker phase appears to trouble some people more than others. Like DSJR, out of phase almost pulls my head apart and is most uncomfortable but for some it is barely discernable. Why is that ?..:scratch:
It probably has something to do with the amount of air being moved by the drivers.
small drivers won't create the same pressure wave.
Ashmore,i did not get to the trouble of reading all posts but i would like you to try something even though it seems unorthodox in regards of taming a bright system. Position
your loudspeakers as best as you can.Measure the distance from the back wall,side wall and ceiling (from loudspeakers of course :))and make sure that are not equal.Then,angle your loudspeakers so that when seated,they face right at you.Normaly,this would make a bright system brighter but if you are having problems with "first reflections" and a bare/bright room,it would actually reduce brightness.As for the VDH cables someone suggested,forget it.They are bright and i have all VDH interconnects from "the source" to thr "mc-silver".The only VDH that is not so bright is the "mc-gold" and it is a bit on the expensive side.
I've made some changes to the system and I'm pleased to report it sounds incomparably better.
It became clear that the most significant factor in what I described as an overly bright system was the natural character and inability of the Rotel to drive the PMCs. Some comparison tests with a couple of old amps a friend brought over revealed its deficiencies all too clearly.
I've replaced it with an Arcam A85. The Arcam has much more ooomph than the Rotel, but goes about its business in a very relaxed, engaging way. My system is now intoxicating. Doubtless there are yet more capable amps, but probably not for the money it cost me, and I am very satisfied.
The QED SA cables have gone; replaced by Van Damme 4mm copper wire. Brief comparison between the two reveals that the Van Damme has taken a bit of the tizziness out of the treble and perhaps supports the bass weight a little better. However, as would be expected, relative to the change in amp, these differences are subtle.
More significantly, bringing the speakers a little more into the room and angled in towards the listening position has made a big difference. The soundstage is dramatically improved and the speakers are far less visible (metaphorically speaking). It's a strange and beguiling effect.
The stand will also be going soon, in favour of something more solid (and ideally behind glass to guard against inquisitive little fingers).
I'd like once more to thank everyone who offered their views. It was very helpful to me. Now, if only I had better taste in music...
Simon
That's really great news, Simon ! :)
The Grand Wazoo
03-11-2009, 23:38
Simon,
You're still in the right place for music recommendations too! Ask away (or just read) in the appropriate place - you may be suprised at how it can broaden your horizons.
Well done, by the way on going some way to sort your brightness problem.
Cheers
Spectral Morn
04-11-2009, 11:30
Excellent news Simon.
Regards D S D L
Stratmangler
04-11-2009, 11:46
Glad to hear of your positive result Simon.
With regard to new music, I'd definitely try Spotify if I were you(if you haven't already).
As you use a Squeezebox I'd also investigate the thread over at Slim Devices regarding the streaming of Spotify via your Squeezebox - the sound quality is very, very good.
A number of us here are Squeezebox users, so if you get stuck we can help you out.
Chris:)
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