View Full Version : How relevant is "Latin" at GCSE level ?
My daughter is 14 and has to choose her options at GCSE.
The school prefer them to study for 9 GCSE's, and we are happy with that figure.
She likes, and seems to be good at Latin, but if she takes this, she may not be able to take Art which she also likes.
It may be possible to take Latin in normal lessons , but then Art as an extra
(we dont know how this works logistically yet, as the meeting with teachers is this evening ).
However, we feel that 10 GCSES may be putting too much pressure on herself.
So, any teachers or folks in further education out there, who can advise.
1) Is Latin relevant/important ?
2) Would having a GCSE Latin ( she is unlikely to take it at A level ) be something that Universities would favour, or does it not matter.
ie is it only the Subjects and Grades at A level that are important when applying to University.
I can't say for certain what it is like now but back in my day (mid '80s) if you wanted to read Classics and could pass the entrance exam you could pretty much walk into Oxford.
Otherwise no University cares if you have Latin 'O' level or not, again, unless things have changed since my day.
Oldpinkman
26-01-2016, 08:56
GCSE latin will be completely irrelevant to universities generally. Pretty much it is only A level grades that matter at Uni, although these days they at least go through the pretence of looking at "personal statements" where things like coaching the local kids rugby team, Duke of Edinburgh awards, and the like all count to showing a "rounded character"
There can be situations where other qualifications are relevant. Good English and Maths never hurt. For my degree I needed a good O level in Maths, since I didn't have an A level - and they pretty much crashed you through AS Maths and Statistics in the first year of the course.
GCSE Latin would probably help a bit if a career in medicine is of interest, or archaeology. I managed to scrape a C at O Level Latin! I can sometimes impress the kids reading Roman inscriptions when we visit ruins.
But she should study it if it interests her - not for vocational reasons
And broadly - I feel that applies generally. My wife is a teacher, and was vocationally obsessed - as though the only point to an education was training for a future career. She just studied music - at University, just opera and operatic technique - to follow her vocation to be an opera star, and then became a housewife. In France she is hoping to be an estate agent. She has taught Music for 14 years, but she is teaching kids to create funk arrangements using Garageband, not to sing Puccini. Today, it is very common to have more than 2 major changes of direction in careers, and what is needed most is flexibility and "depth". But education should be enjoyable and mind broadening - not vocational
My fellow accountants in one job, all first time Chartered Accountant passes with Big 6 Accountancy firms, read History, Chemistry, Economics and French at University (4 people - 4 degrees)
:)
The Black Adder
26-01-2016, 09:22
Does she want to use Latin as part of her career (if known yet)? If she want's to move in to the art side for a career it might be best to do that.
I wish I learned Latin for a professional career in history but I chose Art. For me it felt like the right decision at the time.
Without it you wouldnt know your "Romanes eunt domus" from your "Romani ite Domum"
Spectral Morn
26-01-2016, 10:17
Useful within a Science, History, Law context and possibly languages too I suppose.
If she has a Uni or career in mind worth checking to see re its relevance.
Of course if she is interested then worth doing purely for the vocational aspect. Within a modern context Chinese, Russian and Arabic would be the languages to study, with French and German important too.
Without it you wouldnt know your "Romanes eunt domus" from your "Romani ite Domum"
Indeed...a veritable tragedy.
Marco.
I can't comment on the usefulness of a Latin qualification, but a working knowledge of Latin gives immense understanding of the structure and workings of other European languages, particularly English, French, Spanish and Italian, and how they relate to each other.
Spectral Morn
26-01-2016, 10:43
I can't comment on the usefulness of a Latin qualification, but a working knowledge of Latin gives immense understanding of the structure and workings of other European languages, particularly English, French, Spanish and Italian, and how they relate to each other.
Indeed, the number of English words that are Latin in origin is amazing - Family for instance is from the Latin, the Latin being familia.
Thanks for the input guys.
She doesnt have a career in mind yet, so is really just going for stuff that she likes.
If anything, she will not pursue sciences, but MAY lean toward English, French and History at A level. Art is something she is good at and likes. But the same applies to Latin.
Thanks
walpurgis
26-01-2016, 11:00
Useful within a Science, History, Law context and possibly languages too I suppose.
If she has a Uni or career in mind worth checking to see re its relevance.
Of course if she is interested then worth doing purely for the vocational aspect. Within a modern context Chinese, Russian and Arabic would be the languages to study, with French and German important too.
I agree.
As an exercise in academia Latin may have a place, but it has limited relevance in everyday life. I'd opt for a subject more applicable to the modern and wider world.
Old George
26-01-2016, 11:05
The obvious reason that the so-called 'English' Language has so many Latin words is by virtue of our Roman conquerors, throw some Arabic in the mix and your almost there.
I guess we still have some remnants of the old pre-Roman 'Common Brittonic' lingo as well.
Yes its based as a germaic language i think originally with latin, norse and norman flung in. Along with bits from other major areas like arabic and indian creeping in along with our original local tribal languages thrown in. Non inflection i think too
Its a shame she cannot do both.
Its a shame she cannot do both.
Grant, for the last few weeks we thought she couldnt. So, because she likes both, she had a difficult choice. Latin or Art........ She chose Art. everyone is happy.
so , last night she comes home and says it may be possible to do Art as an extra. This info just from some older girls to my daughter, so may not be true
My wife and I were a little concerned about taking on too much, hence my post.
We meet the teachers tonight to chat about the ins and outs of this whole "choice ' thing, and Im sure it will be clearer by tonight..
Before tonight, Im just looking for any input I can, from folks with direct experience of such matters.
Its important that she does stuff SHE is interested in. You need to impress this on them if possible. I dare say things have changes since my daughter was at school but thats what i did and she did much better in here subjects as she wanted to do them. You know yourself you wont give your best in a task or job if you hate it.
Sure the school will try and orginise something if you and her are so keen
Good luck
Grant, we totally agree. we gave her free choice in her subject choices. she made good choices.
This possible spanner in the works has only emerged last night, and Im just looking for informed input before tonights meetings.
She is a bright girl and works hard. She wants to do 10. We suggest 9, as does the school.
Without it you wouldnt know your "Romanes eunt domus" from your "Romani ite Domum"
'People called the Romans they go to their houses?'
Wish I'd had the choice of NOT doing Latin. They hadn't invented choice back then, though.
Romanes they go the house instead of Romans go home....write it out 100 times by sunrise or i will cut your balls off:eyebrows:
From the life of brian
LOL
And here was me thinking that your Fettes education was paying dividends, with a knowledge of Latin.
Love that film.
My mum was good at latin and used to give me john cleese like lectures if i dared ask a question on a xword clue lol
Grant, we totally agree. we gave her free choice in her subject choices. she made good choices.
This possible spanner in the works has only emerged last night, and Im just looking for informed input before tonights meetings.
She is a bright girl and works hard. She wants to do 10. We suggest 9, as does the school.
My daughter finished her A levels last year so our experience is still fairly fresh. During her two years of GCSE she was pushed by the school to take 13 subjects in total (yes - 13!!) as a mix of GCSE and BTEC - 3 in the first year and 10 in the second. Obviously the school had a vested interest as it does their stats no end of good but for her it was definitely too much and caused something of a 'burnt-out' and lack of motivation during her A level studies. As it was she managed to get good grades in the end and has a place at a decent University studying Criminology but I would strongly advise against relying too much on the advice from the school and listen to what your daughter wants to do and feels she can manage. My daughter took art as an 'extra' because she wanted too and otherwise would have to had to sacrifice Spanish to make space - the advice was that at least one foreign language was essential for the direction she wanted to take at the time (Law) Although it was a tough slog, she didn't regret her decision and is currently taking Art as an 'As' level at a local college before starting Uni but she doesn't look back at her last 4 years of school very positively and is quite cynical about the school's motivations in pushing her at the time and some of the advice she received from them about what she should, or shouldn't, pursue.
At my school the choice was between Latin and Physics. For some mad reason, I thought I could manage both, but my mock 'O' level result in Physics convinced me to concentrate on Latin.
The only advice I'd give would be to study only what you're interested in, as far as possible. I remember at one parents' day at my younger daughter's school, her geography teacher said 'You know, sometimes I think your daughter doesn't actually understand the point of studying geography'. To which my daughter responded 'He's right; I don't'.
At my school the choice was between Latin and Physics. '.
Was the headmaster named 'Hobson' by any chance ;)
I do recall a choice between Music and Double Games. Similarly difficult one. it wasn't proper music either but the wiggy stuff. Games was an hour and a half freezing your balls off on a football pitch, shorts and t shirt being all you were allowed regardless of the weather conditions. None of that tracky bottoms nonsense, that would just make you soft.
Music won by a nose.
In my school the 'thickies' got home economics, and the intelligent folk, Latin... Home economics was great!! :D
No, I did Latin, as I've always had an aptitude for languages. I quite enjoyed it, actually. As it was a Catholic school, we had nuns teaching us the subject, and it tied in neatly with our RE (religious education) studies...
I still remember reciting: 'Puella, Puellae, Puellarum, Puellis', etc... I doubt that I could use Latin to any reasonable standard now, though. As to whether or not Latin is considered relevant today, I guess (as has been mentioned already), it depends on one's career path.
However, I just wish that more of our kids (and indeed adults) were suitably educated to speak at least ONE important foreign language fluently, as that skill is sadly lacking here in the UK. How many on AoS, for example, can speak and/or write in a foreign language? No, Granty, Scottish doesn't count! :eyebrows:
I think it's a disgrace how foreign kids and adults can frequently speak and write in English far more eloquently than many Brits!! :doh:
It's rather embarrassing, and mostly down to sheer laziness and the (rather arrogant) expectation/assumption that everyone else in the world should be able to speak English, as is evidenced so often when I travel to France and Italy, where almost none of the British tourists we sometimes meet, are able to speak more than a few basic words of French or Italian.
Brits need to widen their horizons, in that respect, drop the (unjustified) arrogant 'superiority complex', and escape from the rather insular little bubble that they appear to inhabit!
[Rant over] ;)
Marco.
Was the headmaster named 'Hobson' by any chance ;)
I do recall a choice between Music and Double Games. Similarly difficult one. it wasn't proper music either but the wiggy stuff. Games was an hour and a half freezing your balls off on a football pitch, shorts and t shirt being all you were allowed regardless of the weather conditions. None of that tracky bottoms nonsense, that would just make you soft.
Music won by a nose.
Wednesday afternoons were compulsory games. We established an unofficial option of going round to Sean's house for a cup of tea and a read of the Daily Mirror instead.
Never seen the point really, might make me arrogant or insular I don't know, but a good chunk of the world used to be British so you're fine there, and another chunk has to learn English in order to do business with the rest of us.
Also it is easy for those with an aptitude or gift for languages to criticise the rest of us but it isn't that easy for the rest of us. I can speak foreign fine, it's when they reply that I don't have a bloody clue what they said. If you're not gifted in linguisitcs then the only way to get over that problem is to send a fair bit of time in the subject country.
When I was in Hamburg I asked about language difficulties to the barman / chef in the lovely little best west hotel
He informed in no uncertain terms that if you come across anyone in Germany that doesn't speak the language of the world is English then they were not worth talking to. He was serious as well. And tbh 95% of folk I met did He reckoned it was their duty to speak the main language of the western world
Just my take on it
Also it is easy for those with an aptitude or gift for languages to criticise the rest of us but it isn't that easy for the rest of us.
Yes, I often feel the same way towards those with an aptitude (more than I have, anyway) for science! ;) It irks me beyond belief that it's only the 'science/computer geeks' who get due credit for their intelligence, especially on forums.
If you're not 'well-versed' in physics (or can decipher little graphs on a screen, depicting some form of technical measurements), but can speak, say, three or four foreign languages to a reasonable standard, and write in some of them too, you're not given the same credit for being as intelligent as someone, who, say, has the electronics knowledge to build hi-fi equipment, where the former (linguists) are deemed by the latter as 'knowledgeless' [leaving aside the irony that there is no such word]....!
So how does that work, then? Where's the parity?? :scratch: Just because you're not technically minded doesn't mean that you're 'knowledgeless' (about hi-fi), or thick!
It simply boils down to the left-side/right-side of the brain thing. 'Arty sorts'/linguists should be considered as being just as intelligent as 'science types'; merely in a different way. The fact is, it takes many people, with a multitude of different skill sets, to make a world.
Marco.
When I was in Hamburg I asked about language difficulties to the barman / chef in the lovely little best west hotel
He informed in no uncertain terms that if you come across anyone in Germany that doesn't speak the language of the world is English then they were not worth talking to. He was serious as well. And tbh 95% of folk I met did He reckoned it was their duty to speak the main language of the western world
Just my take on it
Yes, I get that. However, what about one's own sense of pride or achievement?
Don't you think it would be far more respectful, not to mention a damn sight easier/more fun, if, say, when in France you were able to converse with your host in his or her native tongue, not to mention, properly understand things, such as menus in restaurants (unless you're one of the rather crass and undiscerning 'egg and chips' brigade)...? ;)
Whilst English may be one of the main languages spoken throughout the world, I think that that fact breeds laziness in Brits, in terms of even *wanting* to TRY and speak a foreign language, as the automatic assumption is that the 'foreigners' should be speaking English. I find that approach rather arrogant and 'arse about face'!
One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that when in, say, France or Italy, the locals will RESPECT you far more (and you will get much better service from them in shops and restaurants, etc), if you make an effort to *try* and speak their language, rather than simply expecting or presuming them to speak yours...
Marco.
julesd68
26-01-2016, 16:43
Latin was my favourite and best subject at school and wish I had been able to do it for A level. It seems to run in our family - my brother was exceptional at it and my niece is currently studying Latin and English at University ...
I had the benefit of starting to learn Latin when I was around 7 and don't regret it for a second. It makes me laugh how people can say learning Latin isn't 'useful'. The way Latin grammar works means that you have to be very disciplined and focused to master it, and for me this was great training in learning to apply myself to not just three modern languages in later life but other disciplines as well - it's great 'brain training' ... Ultimately though like anything else you need to have a passion for it. I loved the combination of the language and the richness of the ancient history we learnt at the same time. My son is about to go to secondary school and I really hope he gets into a school where Latin is an option.
Without it you wouldnt know your "Romanes eunt domus" from your "Romani ite Domum"
Now write it out CCC times, and get it right next time. :D
It simply boils down to the left-side/right-side of the brain thing. 'Arty sorts'/linguists should be considered as being just as intelligent as 'science types'; merely in a different way.
Marco.
I must be properly thick then as I'm crap at languages and sciences.
I suppose we can only play the cards we are dealt.
Indeed (although I don't think you're giving yourself enough due credit), and also to accept and embrace the fact that our areas of aptitude/knowledge, whether towards science, languages or whatever, does not make us automatically 'superior' to or 'more intelligent' than our opposites, in that respect!
:exactly:
Marco.
I am no good at languages either..still working on anglish:eyebrows: when i was shacked up with a swiss tart for some considerable time she taght me german and french...i taught her English....she was a linguist (and quite cunning)and picked it up easily and spoke 5 fairly fluently. Ive forgot all of it now..think if you are exposed to it day in then it becomes much easier to attune you lugs
Now write it out CCC times, and get it right next time. :D
Lol... I knew that you'd be all over this thread like a rash! ;)
Marco.
The way Latin grammar works means that you have to be very disciplined and focused to master it, and for me this was great training in learning to apply myself to not just three modern languages in later life but other disciplines as well - it's great 'brain training' ...
Indeed! ;)
Although, sadly I've now forgotten most of the Latin I was taught... I believe that Barry is our resident 'expert'.
Marco.
To answer the OP, these days Latin is not a particularly useful qualification required to enter University. There was a time, back in the '60s when regardless of the subject you were reading, you needed Latin 'O' level to enter either Oxford of Cambridge. This was a reminder of the time when Latin (and to some extent Greek) were the lingua franca of academia: all lectures and tutorials were held in Latin, so you could choose to study at any of the universities in Europe.
I went to a sufficiently old-fashioned school where I was taught both Latin and Greek (though I dropped Greek after a year), and it has become useful to a small extent in my subsequent career in science and is very useful in my interest in etymology (the study of the origin of words).
However, if the study of Latin would clash with the ability to study another more useful subject, then obviously Latin will have to be dropped.
Will the time ever come when a knowledge of Latin is needed? Sadly (or perhaps thankfully) no - students studying pharmacy now no longer need to have a knowledge of medical Latin: doctors no longer write out perscriptions in Latin any more and even county councils and modern institutions are now choosing mottos in English, Scottish and Welsh.
If you have to choose a modern language to study, after the obvious French, German and Spanish, the most useful languages are Arabic and Mandarin - and a cursory knowledge of Latin will be of no help to you there!
I am no good at languages either..still working on anglish:eyebrows: when i was shacked up with a swiss tart for some considerable time she taght me german and french...i taught her English....she was a linguist (and quite cunning)and picked it up easily and spoke 5 fairly fluently. Ive forgot all of it now..think if you are exposed to it day in then it becomes much easier to attune you lugs
Nothing like 'pillow talk' for learning a language. Much better than language lessons: you don't get to learn slang and all the rude words in the classroom! :D
Nothing like 'pillow talk' for learning a language. Much better than language lessons: you don't get to learn slang and all the rude words in the classroom! :D
Very true! I could swear in 4 languages :D... She Was Swiss German..daddy was a nazi in his day.. Still was when i met him and rich too.... One of the reasons we split was their insistance that the holocaust never happened... Very sad people on reflection
julesd68
26-01-2016, 17:22
If you have to choose a modern language to study, after the obvious French, German and Spanish, the most useful languages are Arabic and Mandarin - and a cursury knowledge of Latin will be of no help to you there!
I have a degree in Modern Arabic and found my Latin very useful indeed in preparing me for the fiendishly rigorous demands of Arabic grammar ...
I have a degree in Modern Arabic and found my Latin very useful indeed in preparing me for the fiendishly rigorous demands of Arabic grammar ...
As an aid to the discipline required in studing a language I would agree – but surely there is little linguistic help to learning Arabic through understanding Latin?
julesd68
26-01-2016, 17:42
As an aid to the discipline required in studing a language I would agree – but surely there is little linguistic help to learning Arabic through understanding Latin?
It's a bit more than just discipline for me - it's the exposure to complex and rigorous grammar at a young age that I think gave me a head-start in learning both Russian and Arabic ...
It's a bit more than just discipline for me - it's the exposure to complex and rigorous grammar at a young age...
That's *precisely* what's lacking in schools today. Plus, there's too much general dumbing-down of English exams, making them much easier to pass than they once were (and youngsters conversing via 'text speak'), resulting in, quite frankly, appalling levels of literacy amongst kids/teenagers now. I know, because I sometimes see the homework that Del's students give her to mark!! :doh: :rolleyes:
Marco.
julesd68
26-01-2016, 17:57
That's *precisely* what's lacking in schools today. Too much dumbing-down of English exams, making them much easier to pass than they once were (and youngsters conversing via 'text speak'), resulting in, quite frankly, appalling levels of literacy amongst kids/teenagers now. I know, because I sometimes see the homework that they give Del to mark!! :doh: :rolleyes:
Marco.
Absolutely spot on Marco - don’t get me started on this …
When I hear the teachers at my son’s school using lazy English it really gets to me … what chance have the kids got?
Just goes to show how important it is to set the right example at home, as that’s where the kids will take the lead from first …
For most folk I would rather they be shown how to put up a shelf, hoover a carpet, cook a meal and think about others before they just entertain themselves and f**k anyone else that happens to be exposed to their excesses ..rant over for now.
Going back to grammar schools and secondary modern or whatever they were called for the less academic is really needed. This one education for all is a futile and in fact pretty disastrous way to destroy youth. The bright ones get dragged back by the ones that dont want to be there because they cant or wont cope with academic study
When I hear the teachers at my son’s school using lazy English it really gets to me … what chance have the kids got?
Just goes to show how important it is to set the right example at home, as that’s where the kids will take the lead from first …
Hear, hear!! :clap: :clap:
Grant, I also agree.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
26-01-2016, 18:27
For most folk I would rather they be shown how to put up a shelf, hoover a carpet, cook a meal and think about others before they just entertain themselves and f**k anyone else that happens to be exposed to their excesses ..rant over for now.
Going back to grammar schools and secondary modern or whatever they were called for the less academic is really needed. This one education for all is a futile and in fact pretty disastrous way to destroy youth. The bright ones get dragged back by the ones that dont want to be there because they cant or wont cope with academic study
I agree. We are fortunate to still have Grammar schools here - and that is good for those that go to them. The problem has extended further in the name of "inclusion". Now this may sound really harsh, but the same principal applies at the other end of the scale for those of limited ability - whether academic ability or physical ability.
It is a wonderful principle to want to treat everyone as an individual and minimise the stigma of "special" for those with special needs. But special needs demand significant additional special resources. My group of friends when I grew up included friends with a sister with Downs Syndrome, who passed away only fairly recently. Zoe was part of our group of friends, involved at our teenage parties, but went to a special school, where she could get special attention, and that wasnt taking resources from ordinary kids with mainstream needs
Yesterday Sue helped one of her GCSE students complete her assignment. She is a bright girl (the student) but paralysed from the neck down. She can sing beautifully apparently, but to produce a composition needs to tell Sue what to do with the software. Sue found it tremendously rewarding helping this girl to complete her assignment - but at the expense of being able to give absolutely no time at all to the other 15 students in the class. To be in mainstream education, the girl needs a full time helper to deal with overcoming her physical disability - but that needs funds.
Its tough - and places a huge strain on teachers and other school support staff trying to deal with a policy of "inclusion" which includes the young people but doesn't include the resources their special needs require.
Thanks to all for your input. Very useful.
We had a great visit to her school tonight to chat to the teachers and the career advisor.
We had given her a free choice to go with what she likes/wants, and as I said in my initial post, the only dilemma was Art or Latin. She likes both, but was more inclined towards Art. We were happy to give her this choice.
Her teachers backed this choice, and confirmed that not having GCSE Latin would not pose a problem if/when it comes to applying to University.
So, no Latin !!!!
Art it is, along with English (2), Science (3), History, French, Maths.
A total of 9, which the school suggest, and we are very happy to go with.
thanks again
I agree. We are fortunate to still have Grammar schools here - and that is good for those that go to them. The problem has extended further in the name of "inclusion". Now this may sound really harsh, but the same principal applies at the other end of the scale for those of limited ability - whether academic ability or physical ability.
It is a wonderful principle to want to treat everyone as an individual and minimise the stigma of "special" for those with special needs. But special needs demand significant additional special resources. My group of friends when I grew up included friends with a sister with Downs Syndrome, who passed away only fairly recently. Zoe was part of our group of friends, involved at our teenage parties, but went to a special school, where she could get special attention, and that wasnt taking resources from ordinary kids with mainstream needs
Yesterday Sue helped one of her GCSE students complete her assignment. She is a bright girl (the student) but paralysed from the neck down. She can sing beautifully apparently, but to produce a composition needs to tell Sue what to do with the software. Sue found it tremendously rewarding helping this girl to complete her assignment - but at the expense of being able to give absolutely no time at all to the other 15 students in the class. To be in mainstream education, the girl needs a full time helper to deal with overcoming her physical disability - but that needs funds.
Its tough - and places a huge strain on teachers and other school support staff trying to deal with a policy of "inclusion" which includes the young people but doesn't include the resources their special needs require.
Yes, I believe comp edu has a lot to answer for although in theory a great idea. Alas it doesnt work well most of the time. when I was at school if you were not up to it you went to an elementary or secondary modern...something like that. they still taught the main subjects but did a lot of techy subjects the would arm these kids with a good education for jobs, trades etc. Lots of them did considerably better, and many grammar ones did worse,but no one bar the un educationalable left school with no qualifications or skills like now.
My brother was fortunate to be a teacher at a "better" school(royal high) but even there there were a lot of folk that as he said shouldnt really be in that level of education.
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