CD player replacement required

[OD1]

My 12 year old Exposure 2010s is showing signs of old age :(

I would like to replace it, & if possible increase the SQ, with a more modern machine.

I think I have the following options (in personal preference order), with a budget of £250:

a. I own a lightly used Pioneer DV575a dvd player, would it be worthwhile using this as a transport via a separate DAC ?

b. Buy a cheap Blu Ray player & use with a separate DAC ?

c. Buy a new budget CD player

d. Buy a 2nd hand CD player

I welcome any suggestions, especially on the make & model of a suitable DAC.

Thanks
Oliver

[struth]

if you can pick a good one up the dv 717 and the 737 pioneers are great transports too. I currently now use a 717 without a dac but through a MF X10v3 buffer. Couldnt be happier with it

also have a pioneer 150 blu ray but its a bit souless

[Scooby]

I'd say buy a 2nd hand Naim player. Great build and sonics IMO.

[Ninanina]

if you can pick a good one up the dv 717 and the 737 pioneers are great transports too. I currently now use a 717 without a dac but through a MF X10v3 buffer. Couldnt be happier with it

also have a pioneer 150 blu ray but its a bit souless

I will second the choice of a DV 717/737 Pioneer used as a transport. I have two of them and they are very good as a transport. I use mine feeding an Audio Note Dac but have not tried one 'by itself' so cannot comment

They are always for sale on the bay... like these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pioneer-DV-717-DVD-Player-Hi-Fi-Stereo-Champagne-Gold-/331752120837?hash=item4d3df7a205:g:ZhsAAOSwNphWZ6r 5
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pioneer-DV-717-DVD-CD-Player-Hi-Bit-Legato-Link-Conversion-Champagne-Gold-/161937927785?hash=item25b440ae69:g:O8IAAOSw4HVWE84 F

I have used my 717/737's for ages and cannot fault them

[Audio Advent]

My 12 year old Exposure 2010s is showing signs of old age :(



What signs is it showing? After 12 years it could likely do with some maintainance! Belt changes (guess there are some on the drawer), lubrication on the laser sled rails..

Once you've sorted that out so that it plays fine again, get a Beresford Caiman 2. An amazing dac for the £215 or whatever price.

[StanleyB]

My 12 year old Exposure 2010s is showing signs of old age :(

I would like to replace it, & if possible increase the SQ, with a more modern machine.

I think I have the following options (in personal preference order), with a budget of £250:
I would recommend that you first try it with a DAC like the Caiman MKII (I sell them by the way), before you replace it. The Caiman will transform the data from the CD player into something far superior. I still use a CDP to play discs, instead of just listening to ripped files. I have done enough tests to confirm that on my set up at least, the CDP cannot be beaten for sound quality by a PC when used as a digital source.

[Macca]

Try the Pioneer 575a as a stand alone player. They are not bad. Then experiment by adding a Caiman.

I've tried my 565 (basically the same but without DVD-A capability) with a Young DAC and I didn't think it made much of an improvement, if any, but that may just be me.

Of the many players I own far and away the best is the Technics SLP1200B but they are scarce and reliability due to age and use is an issue.

I also have a Pioneer 737 and I wouldn't recommend it - too plasticky and it packed in after a short time. Not tried it as a transport, though.

Cheap and good option if you can find one is a Sony XB790QS, for me it comes quite close to the Technics. Does SACD too.

[OD1]

Thank you all for your great responses, you have given me some options to research :)

Sam,

My current CD player is starting to jump / stick (not sure of correct term) during playback, & increasingly cannot read cds & shows "Error 1" or "Error 2" after noisily whirring for 30 seconds or so. I suppose I could speak to Exposure about servicing it, or one of AOS's electronics guru's :) ?

In the meantime I like the idea (and price :) ) of getting a Caiman (or Bushmaster 2 ? ) DAC & using it with my Pioneer until my Exposure is repaired, then using the Exposure as a transport only.

Oliver

[cargar]

Thank you all for your great responses, you have given me some options to research :)

Sam,

My current CD player is starting to jump / stick (not sure of correct term) during playback, & increasingly cannot read cds & shows "Error 1" or "Error 2" after noisily whirring for 30 seconds or so. I suppose I could speak to Exposure about servicing it, or one of AOS's electronics guru's :) ?

In the meantime I like the idea (and price :) ) of getting a Caiman (or Bushmaster 2 ? ) DAC & using it with my Pioneer until my Exposure is repaired, then using the Exposure as a transport only.

Oliver

Think that is a good way to go. I have a Bushmaster 2 thru a Myryad cd player and it is an excellent dac. Replaced a Theta and for me trounced it.

[Audio Advent]

Thank you all for your great responses, you have given me some options to research :)

Sam,

My current CD player is starting to jump / stick (not sure of correct term) during playback, & increasingly cannot read cds & shows "Error 1" or "Error 2" after noisily whirring for 30 seconds or so. I suppose I could speak to Exposure about servicing it, or one of AOS's electronics guru's :) ?

In the meantime I like the idea (and price :) ) of getting a Caiman (or Bushmaster 2 ? ) DAC & using it with my Pioneer until my Exposure is repaired, then using the Exposure as a transport only.

Oliver

With a DVD player's ram buffer, you might even find that the cheaper built Pioneer will sound better than the dedicated CD player when used as a transport.. Just a shame that you lose a bit of build quality and joy of use.

[Jankoff]

I have a large experience with CD players and DACs, dating back to at least 1996, when I was in Edinburgh for a year and got infected with the persevering, and usually lifelong, audiophile disease - from magazines like What Hi-Fi and Hi-Fi Choice :D :D :D A good DAC should in principle improve the SQ of a CD. But the CD must have a good transport section and the cabling must be good. One of the snags is here. The best connection is 75-Ohm BNC. But BNC inputs and outputs are rare. Cambridge Audio used to mount BNC inputs and outputs on their CDs and DACs. Not sure if they still do. BNC is 75-Ohm standard, whereas a 75-Ohm cinch connector is a rarity (WBT do produce 75-Ohm cinch connectors, some of them not overly expensive). Of course, the analogue section, after the DAC, must also be good. Otherwise although there may be a clear improvement in the CD-DAC upgrade, it will reveal itself in ... somebody else's system :D

[OD1]

Before deciding which way I should go, I conducted an experiment yesterday.
I have a CD that is unplayable in my Exposure (has been for more than 3 years), so I gave it a try in my cheap Blu Ray player, and it played perfectly without skipping once, so looks like the Exposure will be assigned to the loft until I have funds to get it repaired :(

This has made my mind up to go with my Pioneer DVD into a DAC option for now.

On the DAC front I would like to go for a Bushmaster II or the Caiman II, but would like to know if & how I could connect my Mini Mac to listen to internet radio ?

Thanks again for all your responses :)

Oliver

[OD1]

Damn !!!!
While looking in my loft for the Pioneer DVD player, my son reminded me that I gave it to his now Ex girlfriend 2 years ago :steam:

I have a Panasonic dmp-bd55 blu ray player that I can use as a transport for now, would this work ok with a DAC ?

[Audio Advent]

Before deciding which way I should go, I conducted an experiment yesterday.
I have a CD that is unplayable in my Exposure (has been for more than 3 years), so I gave it a try in my cheap Blu Ray player, and it played perfectly without skipping once, so looks like the Exposure will be assigned to the loft until I have funds to get it repaired :(

This has made my mind up to go with my Pioneer DVD into a DAC option for now.

On the DAC front I would like to go for a Bushmaster II or the Caiman II, but would like to know if & how I could connect my Mini Mac to listen to internet radio ?

Thanks again for all your responses :)

Oliver

The Caiman II has a USB input so you can connect to your mac mini that way. (I think you may have to specify it's for use with a Mac when you order.. something to do with firmware?). That's actually how most of my casual listening goes: PC laptop -> USB -> Caiman II. Less casual listening means I'm getting out a CD or LP..

Don't put the CD player in the loft, it will stay there for 20 years untouched! I'd take the cover off it, regrease the rails the laser slides on with silicone grease from Maplin and also watch to make sure the draw closes fully, pressing the cd against the clamp above it (often it relies on a simple belt and pully to complete that action and time ages the belt so it slips and so the CD doesn't locate well). That might cost you £10 to fix and an hour (two hours if Maplin is far). Sending off to be repaired for the same thing to be done will cost you probably £150 minimum and a couple of weeks (or sometimes a bad audio engineer will just say "it needs a new laser, that's £400 please" when it probably doesn't).

[StanleyB]

I have a Panasonic dmp-bd55 blu ray player that I can use as a transport for now, would this work ok with a DAC ?
It will work if it has an optical or coax output at the back.

I got one of the highly rated Marantz 63 CDP that is in A1 condition and is only used for testing purposes once in a while. If you are going to get a Caiman DAC, why not take a drive down to me in NW London? I might be able to do you a deal for the DAC and the CDP.

[Audio Advent]

It will work if it has an optical or coax output at the back.



Looks like it has both. If you're into that sort of thing, you can easily use it to try to hear any difference between the two types of connections..

[OD1]

Sam,

I opened my Exposure & noticed that the tray is loose (able to move up & down while closed) is this some sort of suspension arrangement or is something amiss ?
I will follow your advice & have a go at cleaning it up if the loose tray is correct.

Stan,
Thanks for the offer, but the BR player is sitting idle so would probably try it with a Caiman (it has optical & Coax digital outs).
I have just played some cd's via the BR player, and no probs with skipping, and it does not sound too bad, just a tad loose in the bass. Would the Caiman tighten this up ?

Oliver

[StanleyB]

I have just played some cd's via the BR player, and no probs with skipping, and it does not sound too bad, just a tad loose in the bass. Would the Caiman tighten this up ?
I can't say. It all depends with what you mean by loose. They got a TV program called Loose Women, but I can't figure out what is loose with them.

[OD1]

I can't say. It all depends with what you mean by loose. They got a TV program called Loose Women, but I can't figure out what is loose with them.

Lol, my way of saying the bass is not as fast (the notes lasting longer) as I am used to, but then I cannot say for certain that I am now hearing a more accurate sound :scratch:

[OD1]

Stan,
I have some q's to ask before ordering a Caiman, should I ask them here, or via email to your website ?

[Audio Advent]

Sam,

I opened my Exposure & noticed that the tray is loose (able to move up & down while closed) is this some sort of suspension arrangement or is something amiss ?
I will follow your advice & have a go at cleaning it up if the loose tray is correct.



I couldn't find photos of the insides of a 2010s... but lots of CD mechanisms of that era use the draw-closing motor to pull the draw firmly shut and then lift the laser mechanism up to clamp the CD against the magnetic clamp above. (i.e the laser mechanism drops out of the way to let the draw open and is raised again when it shuts). If it is all belt driven and the belt has begun to stretch, then the draw won't close fully and the laser mechanism won't raise properly.. Then the CD kind of doesn't get positioned or, because it isn't clamped, doesn't spin up to the right speed and so can't be read by the laser..

So, does sound to me - as an amateur tinkerer only! - that it could be this. Some mechanisms use a cog to close the draw (and teeth break on them) or a belt (which stretches) both are available on ebay for not much. Could be a fiddle to replace but I've done it with a belt on a Marantz CD321 which wouldn't read discs - solved the problem.

Take some photos and perhaps some others will chime in to help too?

[StanleyB]

Stan,
I have some q's to ask before ordering a Caiman, should I ask them here, or via email to your website ?
You are better off emailing me. I only drop in from time to time to browse around. I don't have the same level of free time as many others to surf the net.

[Ammonite Audio]

I would recommend that you first try it with a DAC like the Caiman MKII (I sell them by the way), before you replace it. The Caiman will transform the data from the CD player into something far superior. I still use a CDP to play discs, instead of just listening to ripped files. I have done enough tests to confirm that on my set up at least, the CDP cannot be beaten for sound quality by a PC when used as a digital source.

A year ago I would have disagreed about old-fashioned CD being superior to ripped/streamed sources, but since acquiring an old Rega Planet CD player to use as a transport I find that identical albums do sound more engaging when played from the CD, compared to a PC based source. Every single variable in PC-based music replay makes a difference, which is confusing and, ultimately, I can no longer be bothered with it.

Regarding CD players, I find that any player that does up-sampling will be superficially smoother and 'nicer', but musically uncommunicative, compared with one that sticks with native 16/44.1 processing. So, if the old Exposure ticks the musical boxes, I'd get it serviced/repaired.

[StanleyB]

A year ago I would have disagreed about old-fashioned CD being superior to ripped/streamed sources, but since acquiring an old Rega Planet CD player to use as a transport I find that identical albums do sound more engaging when played from the CD, compared to a PC based source.
I am sure that there would be a lot of people who would disagree with me on this. But I have done the tests across several computers running the Windows OS, and each and everyone failed the most basic of test: a frequency response measurement of an audio frequency sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz. The response is dead flat at 2Vrms@ 0dB across the audio frequency spectrum when the test signal is played through a stand alone CDP, sent via TOSLINK or digital Coax to a DAC, and the analogue output measured on a scope.
The same test was then done on a PC, with the CD ripped and the resulting audio data then played back through the PC, and the signal sent via TOSLINk, coax, or USB, to a DAC. The resulting audio waveform showed great variations in output level between 20Hz and 20kHz.
It's not the easiest of test to do for the average person who does not have access to a scope. But if you do have a scope, you can download sinewave test signals from various websites.
It is also worth trying out the measurement via the USB input on the DAC with the various ASIO and WASAPI drivers and settings. You'll get back a lot of info that is very likely to surprise you. Maybe I am the only person who has bothered to set up such a test and check for errors of that kind. Or maybe those who have done a similar test did not quite grasp what they were seeing.

[struth]

An rpi may be a different animal. If you've got one it might be interesting to see if it passes the test Stan

[Jankoff]

I am sure that there would be a lot of people who would disagree with me on this. But I have done the tests across several computers running the Windows OS, and each and everyone failed the most basic of test: a frequency response measurement of an audio frequency sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz. The response is dead flat at 2Vrms@ 0dB across the audio frequency spectrum when the test signal is played through a stand alone CDP, sent via TOSLINK or digital Coax to a DAC, and the analogue output measured on a scope. The same test was then done on a PC, with the CD ripped and the resulting audio data then played back through the PC, and the signal sent via TOSLINk, coax, or USB, to a DAC. The resulting audio waveform showed great variations in output level between 20Hz and 20kHz...

Stan, as you know, I liked very much your Asynch-1 and even ordered a second one - for my second PC. But I do disagree with you here. I have the M2Tech Hiface Evo One (now they offer "Evo Two") - the USB interface, the Clock and the Power Supply (given in detail here below). And I do think that these three, costing about €1200, are capable of music extraction via USB far above any CD player below €5000 or even more. In reaching this conclusion, I have been using my ears, not frequency response tests, as well as the ears of several friends, among whom two musicians (one high-class professional) and one who has been selling and testing Hi-Fi/Hi-End for two decades (Plamen, whom you know and who thinks very highly of your Caiman). With the use of the M2Tech trio we established various facts in recordings that we had listened to thousands of times: much better staging, additional noises and noise artifacts around the major sounds of the instruments, and especially additional voices (that we all had never heard previously). Of course, I have to strongly emphasize the need for a quality DAC and a quality analogue section after the USB-interface, as well as quality cables throughout for one to be able to hear these differences. Of course, there are also several very serious reviews that are in full corroboration of my position here - and these are only some that have already announced the CD player demise:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/m2tech3/1.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/m2tech_hiface_evo_e.html
http://www.hifi-advice.com/Hiface-EVO-review.html
Bottom line: In view of the above, I would be happy to see you develop further your USB-interface (instead of scrapping the project) - both as a separate device and as part of the Caiman or other similar future products.

[OD1]

I couldn't find photos of the insides of a 2010s... but lots of CD mechanisms of that era use the draw-closing motor to pull the draw firmly shut and then lift the laser mechanism up to clamp the CD against the magnetic clamp above. (i.e the laser mechanism drops out of the way to let the draw open and is raised again when it shuts). If it is all belt driven and the belt has begun to stretch, then the draw won't close fully and the laser mechanism won't raise properly.. Then the CD kind of doesn't get positioned or, because it isn't clamped, doesn't spin up to the right speed and so can't be read by the laser..

So, does sound to me - as an amateur tinkerer only! - that it could be this. Some mechanisms use a cog to close the draw (and teeth break on them) or a belt (which stretches) both are available on ebay for not much. Could be a fiddle to replace but I've done it with a belt on a Marantz CD321 which wouldn't read discs - solved the problem.

Take some photos and perhaps some others will chime in to help too?

Thanks Sam,
I will have a look & try & get some photos posted (my son is at home so will get him to help with photos).
Oliver

[robtweed]

Fascinating findings, Stan! Any thoughts on why the ripped file played back from a PC was producing those anomalies? Is it a Windows-driver specific issue perhaps? Power supply-generated noise?

[Audio Advent]

[QUOTE=Jankoff;724815In reaching this conclusion, I have been using my ears, not frequency response tests, as well as the ears of several friends, among whom two musicians (one high-class professional) and one who has been selling and testing Hi-Fi/Hi-End for two decades (Plamen, whom you know and who thinks very highly of your Caiman). With the use of the M2Tech trio we established various facts in recordings that we had listened to thousands of times: much better staging, additional noises and noise artifacts around the major sounds of the instruments, and especially additional voices (that we all had never heard previously). .[/QUOTE]

In fairness, Stan made no comment about the subjective sound of the computer audio output whatsoever.. he simply pointed out that in his opinion from his own frequency sweeps and scope findings, they fail basic tests for a flat frequency response.

Both your statement about the subjective improvements AND his statement can stand side by side without any contradiction at all!

So to correct you, you don't disagree - you didn't mention frequency response once ;)

To add my own take on what Stan said; that may well be the case with OS level drivers for USB I/O or on-board outputs via motherboard but surely that can't also stand for semi-pro or pro level audio I/O cards and interfaces can it? That would render all studio Pro-Tools rigs down to Ableton Live set-ups pretty much a con after 25 years+ of development.

I would expect file based audio to better CD at least from the point of view of playing those files from within a professionally capable setup using extensively developed software (often bypassing OS-level operation) and via pro-standard audio I/O like a card from Lynx . Logically it makes sense because you'd effectively be playing from the same set-up that recorded the audio without the added step of a carrier and convoluted method to play that carrier.

[Jankoff]

In fairness, Stan made no comment about the subjective sound of the computer audio output whatsoever.. he simply pointed out that in his opinion from his own frequency sweeps and scope findings, they fail basic tests for a flat frequency response. Both your statement about the subjective improvements AND his statement can stand side by side without any contradiction at all! So to correct you, you don't disagree - you didn't mention frequency response once ;)

Yes, it makes sense to say that both statements can be simultaneously correct but it also stands to reason that if we, several people, are hearing from a PC via USB things like an additional voice, artefacts from instruments, etc. - that we have never heard before from a CD player, this must be the result of a BETTER frequency response, not a worse one. Here is a good example of the two different approaches to Hi-Fi/Hi-End music reproduction - the engineer's and the musician's (enthusiasts's), isn't it? It would be very interesting for me to see whether Stan would now question (or even reject as improbable) our findings - better music extraction from PC than from a CDP, in view of the fact that he took the trouble to design a USB interface - and did a good job. He seems to be willing to dump his Asynch-1 - there is a notice that there are a few remaining Asynch-1 units and they are to clear. I said some days ago that this would be a pity IMO.
I want to explain how I became a "USB enthusiast". Some years ago a friend of mine, who has a Hi-Fi/Hi-End shop and is very inquisitive and ingenious, started coming round for a beer or two and telling me - sometimes for hours on end, how he came to the definite conclusion that music extraction via USB was much better than from a CDP. He substantiated his position with the argument that a hdd is, of course, a much better instrument than any CD drive. I agreed with this but argued that it must be the jitter problem that cannot be overcome. He said it was. I did not believe him and thought "that's nonsense, I know the computer cannot play music". At that time he used to sell some Chinese-deisigned and made USB-interface stuff. He brought to me one such thing, we put it through my setup. Unconvincing, he agreed. A year passed and suddenly I started thinking: what if Plamen is right? After all, a hdd is much more capable than any CD drive mechanism. He hadn't turned up for a long time. I came upon a deal for a M2Tech USB HiFace Evo and decided to give it a try. I did - and was immediately blown away. Heard a voice in a recording that I had not been aware it was there. Then I added the M2Tech power supply and the clock - and things went to an even higher level. Meanwhile I read the reviews that I gave links to above - and the all-round picture in my mind of the advantage of the hdd+USB-interface over the CD transport became very clear.
To cut the long story short, this episode confirmed a conviction of mine that I had had for a long time, one that has nothing to do with music: an intrinsic human trait is dogmatism. People have beliefs that they stick to in the face of any good arguments and perfect proof to the contrary. And progress is usually the result of a sudden and sometimes totally unexpected crash of previous beliefs (the apple on Newton's head). So this is how I came to be a believer of the USB-interface. :D :D :D

[StanleyB]

To add my own take on what Stan said; that may well be the case with OS level drivers for USB I/O or on-board outputs via motherboard but surely that can't also stand for semi-pro or pro level audio I/O cards and interfaces can it? That would render all studio Pro-Tools rigs down to Ableton Live set-ups pretty much a con after 25 years+ of development.
It is very much equipment and drivers dependent from what I could make out. mp3 files were the worst of the lot when it came to frequency errors.

[AlfaGTV]

Some very interesting and relevant thoughts from all contributors here! Good thread!

Like others i have resurrected quite a few CD-players with nothing more than miniscule amounts of teflon based grease for trays and CD mechanisms. And yes, most CD player mechanisms are in some way "floating", to isolate the sensitive laserplatform. Give it a try, apply some very small amounts of grease on a model aircraft paintbrush or similar and apply to all sliding parts contact surfaces.
This is often all it takes...
I sometime also try and get drive belts out and clean them thoroughly with glycerol which seems to rejuvenate natural rubber. Make sure it is proper clean before reinserting though! :)

Regading which sounds best, file based playback or using a CDP as transport there is no contest whatsoever to my ears. But, as someone stated, it is a true menace to get the stars to align when using a PC.
Dare i say, much more so, if you are Windows inclined?

There is, as usual, always the exception and in my experience a truly great CD-player needs to buffer the audio stream and let go of the real time playback. Thats the ticket, at least to my ears.

My own "CD" can play buffered audio on the fly, but it sounds noticeably better when i rip the CD to its internal SSD disc and play them back from their "file state".
Audio is almost up there when i feed it digital signal from a MacMini via short USB into a Gustard U10, which converts USB audio stream into balanced SPDIF (AES/EBU).
So, for me file based playback is the ticket, even if i occasionally play some discs without getting to annoyed! :)

[Macca]

Jitter i.e distortion caused by timing errors is well below audible levels on a CD player, and a lot lower than on a record deck. So I don't buy jitter as an sq issue.

Nor do I buy the idea that reading a file in real time should make any difference. Buffers were invented so that CD players would work in cars, or for portables whilst moving, i.e situations where vibration will cause read errors too large to be corrected, causing skipping. Error correction has no effect on the sound - it doesn't work that way.

You can't draw an conclusions about the superiority or otherwise of file/PC playback by comparing it to one CD player. CD players do vary in their SQ and presentation, quite a bit. As do music making computer set-ups. This would go a long way to explain why some are entrenched in the idea that one is superior to the other, intrinsically. In all cases the individual implementation will be the decider. My theory is that power supplies and the sophistication of the analogue output stage are what separates the wheat from the chaff, and these factors apply to both computers and CD players. Jitter, buffering, these are red herrings.

[Tony Moore]

Hi Martin,

I would very much agree with you that in all audio equipment it is the power supply and grounding that probably has the most bearing on sound quality, especially in the digital realm. What I'm not so sure about is exactly why that is. Is it RF noise from external sources? Interaction of different parts of the circuit causing current spikes and influencing other areas in unpredictable ways?

Personally I have not written off jitter as a possible cause. Jitter caused by noise on the power supply causing a small variance in the output timing of the samples. I've done a fair bit of DIY around TDA1541A DAC and using I2S from both a CDPRO2 mech and later Sqeezebox 3 and Squeezebox receiver and in all cases gating the clock and data signals through a very fast D flipflop clocked by Tent labs clock resulted in a marked improvement in SQ. Particularly bass which is a bit counter-intuitive. :scratch: So for me I have not done measurements as I don't have the equipment to measure distortion, etc but I know from purely listening tests that there is something going on. Whether it's the timing of the signals being improved by the Tent clock or just simply buffering the signals and making the switching edges cleaner I do not know. However, the result of sloppy rounded clock signal would be jitter if the DAC can't get a consistent switching point.

Cheers,
Tony

[Macca]

Hi Tony

It is just a theory/hypothesis I am putting out there based on my own experiences. Jitter caused by distortion isn't something I had considered since the usual argument goes the other way i.e jitter causes audible distortion, which seems unlikely to me. It is a complicated cat to skin!

What does seem evident is that current thinking and developments in digital are not addressing these issues and are instead concentrating in other areas that are really not worth the trouble, especially if the basics have been ignored.

Most issues in audio, once you wash away the bullshit, seem to boil down to noise and distortion and reducing them. With digital my theory is that noise of all types and all sources is the main issue, the result is that it masks the sound, simultaneously making it bland and 'mushy'. But you only notice this when it is removed, otherwise you just assume it is what digital sounds like. Abandoning active pre-amplification (a potential additional source of noise and distortion) and using various players that have had attention paid to their power supplies and output stages made a big improvement on the results I was getting, hence I have extrapolated from there. As to the actual mechanism by which the noise is affecting the signal, I have no idea, that is out of my depth.

Having said all that I am prepared to accept that I am wildly wrong. But I do keep hearing things that re-affirm this theory.

[AlfaGTV]

....
Having said all that I am prepared to accept that I am wildly wrong. But I do keep hearing things that re-affirm this theory.

No Martin, you are perhaps mildly wrong! ;)
If i gave the impression that my experience and theories are based upon only one CD/Computer playback system then i didn't make meself clear.
CD playback for me is decent enough from the standard run of the mill player in "buyable" price zones. But they are all bettered by a correctly fettled PC file playback. But perhaps therein lies the contradiction, "correctly fettled" is hard to define and i have deffo heard computer based solutions that sound like shite.
If this is about jitter i couldn't say for sure. Perhaps i am just re-affirming my theories! ;)

What i do know is that the two best CD playback systems i've heard for any length of time, they both grab the tracks and play them back asynchronously!
They are, my Embla which rips the disc to PCM files and plays them back from SSD and then my good friends MSB Platinum DAC IV/MSB Universal Transport which also reads the CD's into a big buffer and plays the stream from there.

As always, YMMV and these are my personal experiences!
Atb /Mike

[Macca]

What i do know is that the two best CD playback systems i've heard for any length of time, they both grab the tracks and play them back asynchronously!
They are, my Embla which rips the disc to PCM files and plays them back from SSD and then my good friends MSB Platinum DAC IV/MSB Universal Transport which also reads the CD's into a big buffer and plays the stream from there.



Ah but do you know that the buffering was the reason they were good? Could it not be some other property they both have?

[cargar]

:offtopic:

[AlfaGTV]

Ah but do you know that the buffering was the reason they were good? Could it not be some other property they both have?
Absolutely! But as a garden shed empirical researcher i tend to go for the lowest hanging fruits! ;)

To steer the discussion somewhat back on track, my local dealer sells Exposure and have never had anything other than praise for these product, particularly their CDP's. When in need of a transport, for evaluating DAC's, he almost always gets an Exposure CDP out!
And i agree, they are well built and sound good!
But on the other hand he has yet to discover file based audio :D

[OD1]

Sam,
As you suggested, I opened the Exposure & greased the drawer mechanism, checked the belt & the various cogs, all ok. I checked the laser glass & this was clean. I then inserted a disk & this located ok & ran with no problems.
After fitting the cover, I noticed that when the tray was closed, I was able to move it by about 0.5mm left to right while pushing from the front, resulting in a change to the noise of the transport, but no skipping from the CD.
After removing the cover I managed to find a piccy (from a post on the Wam) & checked against my player, I could not see anything missing so looks like my cd tray is ok :scratch:

After doing the above, I decided to purchase a Caiman II, (thanks Stan for the very swift delivery :) ).

Yesterday morning I connected it to my Panasonic BD55 blu ray player (via Coax), & even straight from cold, was impressed with what I was hearing.
To be honest, I was not expecting a £300 blu ray player (used as a transport only) to even come close to a £600 dedicated CD player, & was looking at this as a short term fix, but I could certainly live with the current combination as is :)

When I get the chance, I will have a listen to the Exposure via the Caiman vs the Panny, & if i hear an improvement, I will get the Exposure serviced, if not much difference I will keep the Panny & give the Exposure to my son :)

Many thanks to all for the excellent advice.
Oliver

[StanleyB]

After doing the above, I decided to purchase a Caiman II, (thanks Stan for the very swift delivery :) ).

Yesterday morning I connected it to my Panasonic BD55 blu ray player (via Coax), & even straight from cold, was impressed with what I was hearing.
To be honest, I was not expecting a £300 blu ray player (used as a transport only) to even come close to a £600 dedicated CD player, & was looking at this as a short term fix, but I could certainly live with the current combination as is :)

No problem at all. I figured out that if I could get the Caiman to you by Saturday morning you would have the weekend to make a mess and clear it up again before SWMBO had something to say :).

[OD1]

Nice one Stan :)

SWMBO surprised me by saying the Caiman looked cute, then asked me explain what it did, then smiled & asked if she could connect her Ipod to it when I am out:eek:
How would I connect said Ipod to the Caiman ?

[StanleyB]

How would I connect said Ipod to the Caiman ?
You'll need to speak to the MAC/iPod experts about that. I understand that you would need the USB camera kit or something, and connect that to the USB input on the Caiman. You will need a separate power supply for the kit since the Caiman USB input is isolated from the incoming 5V power supply on the USB socket.

[WAD62]

You'll need to speak to the MAC/iPod experts about that. I understand that you would need the USB camera kit or something, and connect that to the USB input on the Caiman. You will need a separate power supply for the kit since the Caiman USB input is isolated from the incoming 5V power supply on the USB socket.
I doubt the iPod will have 'USB Host' capabilities, that's restricted to later smartphones (OTG for Android, Camera Kit for iPhone)...and is a big battery drain TBH

She'd be better off buying an iPod dock with a digital output, into the caiman, whist recharging at the same time...;)

[OD1]

Thanks for the info, we will stick to CD replay for now.

[Audio Advent]

Sam,
As you suggested, I opened the Exposure & greased the drawer mechanism, checked the belt & the various cogs, all ok. I checked the laser glass & this was clean. I then inserted a disk & this located ok & ran with no problems.
After fitting the cover, I noticed that when the tray was closed, I was able to move it by about 0.5mm left to right while pushing from the front, resulting in a change to the noise of the transport, but no skipping from the CD.
After removing the cover I managed to find a piccy (from a post on the Wam) & checked against my player, I could not see anything missing so looks like my cd tray is ok :scratch:

After doing the above, I decided to purchase a Caiman II, (thanks Stan for the very swift delivery :) ).

Yesterday morning I connected it to my Panasonic BD55 blu ray player (via Coax), & even straight from cold, was impressed with what I was hearing.
To be honest, I was not expecting a £300 blu ray player (used as a transport only) to even come close to a £600 dedicated CD player, & was looking at this as a short term fix, but I could certainly live with the current combination as is :)

When I get the chance, I will have a listen to the Exposure via the Caiman vs the Panny, & if i hear an improvement, I will get the Exposure serviced, if not much difference I will keep the Panny & give the Exposure to my son :)

Many thanks to all for the excellent advice.
Oliver

Remember to clean and grease the rails that the laser itself slides back and forth on. But it sounds like it might be working ok now?

But yes, even after getting it working it doesn't mean it will sound any better than the Blu Ray player as a transport into the Caiman! I have a Caiman too and enjoy it greatly - definately on a par with some expensive kit if not better e.g. an Audio Synthesis DAX Decade I tried recently. To be honest though, after getting the Caiman I began forgetting about trying out different dacs as it seemed a bit of a waste of time.

[robtweed]

You'll need to speak to the MAC/iPod experts about that. I understand that you would need the USB camera kit or something, and connect that to the USB input on the Caiman. You will need a separate power supply for the kit since the Caiman USB input is isolated from the incoming 5V power supply on the USB socket.

Pretty sure you can't currently connect an iPod (or iPod Touch) to the Caiman via the USB camera kit - it will work for the iPad and I *think* latest iPhones via iOS 9.x. However, as Stan says, you need to connect via a powered USB hub. Airplay is probably your best bet, but you'll need different intermediate gear for that, such as an Apple TV box or something like the Raspberry Pi & Digi+ board & Moode. Another way into the Caiman might be via a Chromecast Audio, at least from an iPod Touch.

[OD1]

I finally got round to trying the Exposure via the Caiman, & ran into two problems.

1. I could not get the coax output to work.

2. Connected via optical, this works, but when I load a CD the Exposure annoyingly plays snippets of track 1 while reading the ToC, this does not happen when using the analogue output.
Is this the norm when using a CD only transport ?

This has convinced me to stick with the Panny blu ray as a transport (which happens to sound a lot better via the Caiman, than the Expo as a stand alone player), until I get the itch to change :)

Thanks to all for your advice.

[OD1]

I have decided to get a dedicated CD player to go with my Caiman 2.
I miss things like fast load speed & direct track access, and my BD player's transport is quite clunky.

I do not have much space on my rack, so was thinking of a half width unit.

I have seen a used Cyrus Dad3 for £199, would this be a decent unit to use as a transport, does anyone know if it mutes it's output while reading a disk (this is a major problem with my Exposure CD player :steam:) ?

Any other suggestions for decent half width players ?

Thanks in advance.

[OD1]

I ended up purchasing a Cambridge CXC CD transport, sounds very good through my Caiman 11, live cd's especially sound more natural :)

Thanks to all for your advice :)

[Floyddroid]

Try an Oppo BDT 101CI Blu-Ray player. Terrific for the money. Get in touch with Mark Grant.

[Jaytdlstudio2]

Hi there its a long shot but would you ever sell the exposure cd player of your no longer using it?
Regards jason