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Macca
23-10-2009, 12:52
Hi

I notice that Shippy/Sound Has Priority etc. has been banned

Might I venture to suggest that this seems a little out of order? I appreciate that he was, in the end, personally insulting to another member, but only after some serious goading. His posts were well written and intelligent, if a little longer than neccessary, and while I do not agree with his viewpoint I do not have a problem with him expressing it and I do not understand why others do.

Anyone who saw Nick Griffin making a damn fool of himself on Question Time last night must surely realise that the open discussion that occurs when censorship is relaxed does no harm at all to the causes of 'good' and 'right'. Personally I find the actions of those protestors outside the studio who were attempting to prevent the broadcast to be far more dangerous to the health of our society.

I am aware that this is a privately owned site and if the owners wish to bar an individual for any reason then it is entirely their decision - I have worked in the licensed trade and have barred people myself - I did not have to give a reason and often I did not. I am simply suggesting that the decision to ban someone is made only after serious consideration and not as a knee-jerk reaction.

Regards

Martin

DSJR
23-10-2009, 13:07
If Shippy had posted elsewhere on various threads and slipped in that he was a happy user of Beltish techniques, I don't think it would have got so nasty on both sides.. I've heard Belt effects in a system almost dedicated (at the time) to bring these differences forward, yet could never replicate them at home. Eventually, I hit the jackpot and, IMO, overtook the belt-tweaked system by using tried and trusted subjective/objective reasoning - get the sources right as near as possible, use an amp system that doesn't get in the way of the music/production and follow the ATC/Tannoy DC way - if you want it more realistic, get a bigger pair of speakers.........

Martin, if you'd read the vitriol that has floated around other audio forums from time to time, I suppose it was only a matter of time something kicked off here, with entrenched viewpoints clashing badly. A shame, as we *usually* get on well here...

Regarding Nick Griffin, I sincerely hope that life experiences will allow him to grow and temper the OTT views he held twenty or more years ago. We should all be given the chance to grow and develop our ideas I think. Hopefully, we can learn from experience IMO.

Themis
23-10-2009, 16:36
Taking into account the details (and having been an administrator several times), in my opinion, the admins here took seriously into consideration the shippy/whatever case and made the right move. It even took too long imho.

"Bashing" is not a synonym of "freedom of posting" to a forum: there are two different notions. soundhaspriority simply didn't realize this simple rule. ;)
(and I know nothing bout Nick Griffin, sorry)

aquapiranha
23-10-2009, 16:59
I assume you are referring to me as being the one did the goading? well, as I have repeated several times now, this soundhaspriority has 'form' and has devoted the last few years to tirelessly and ceaselessly pushing beliefs on others via forums.

There is no doubt that he is an educated, intelligent and articulate person, (as is griffin, despite his apparent insanity) but what he fails to grasp is that there are others who simply do not have the same beliefs, and to him, they are wrong, dead wrong and he will stop at nothing to try and tell them that they are wrong. A bit like griffin then?

I was surprised he lasted as long as he did and I make no apologies for the way I spoke to him, having tangled with him before and knowing exactly what was coming.

If I want to know more about a religion, I would read books, go to the place of worship etc, I do not expect someone to come to my house and try to ram it down me without invite.

Don't worry, he will simply move on to another forum and the process will be repeated again and again, ad nauseum.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-10-2009, 17:47
I'm half and half on this one. I think it's a shame he is banned BUT I do think it was the right thing to do. IF he was more willing to take part in the forum as a whole like the rest of us do then fine, but as was... No good for me

i see it like this

imagine a group of well meaning, usually happy go lucky, intelegent (for the most part :)) people sat around in your house having interesting conversations about all sorts of things. They have differing opinions, but are happy discusing things on a sencible level with calm and reasonable outcomes. Anybody is welcome to come to your house, as long as they don't offend people and keep up the same level of convo etc.. Then imagine there is a guy in the kitchen who has a very strong veiw that differs from everyone elses, people can go in there have a chat with him listen to what he has to say and refute it if they like.. Fine no probs... Until that guy starts shouting and screaming his veiws, telling everyone at great length how stupid they are, even at the mear question of what he says. Wel, that will eventually start getting to people, you can say just ignor him... But what about the fresh faces that come knocking at the door... That one nutter reflecs really badly on the whole house! Let me just reiterate.. If that guy had sat around with everyone else and respected everyone elses veiws, then no problem... But shouting in the kitchen... It's just not on!!!

Marco
23-10-2009, 17:48
Hi Martin,

Decisions to ban members are always regretful, very carefully considered, and only occur as a last resort when all conciliatory measures have failed.

We had no choice but to ban Shippy, not necessarily for his outburst at the end, but for the simple reason that he was on an all-consuming mission to 'preach the gospel according to Belt', and as such had little interest in other discussions or integrating harmoniously into our community.

We have no problem with people expressing opinions or championing products as robustly as they wish, but at the same time they also have to respect the equally valid contrary opinions/beliefs of others and attempt fit into our community by adding something of worth in return.

In the final analysis, Shippy took much more than he gave and simply saw our forum as a vehicle to lecture people on his rather outlandish 'Beltist' beliefs. In the end this just wasn't compatible with what AoS is about and how we expect our members to contribute to the site.

That's it in a nutshell.

Marco.

P.S Hamish is spot on and has a very good handle on the situation :)

Rare Bird
23-10-2009, 21:04
I think if he hadnt used multiple user names simultaniously & not gone babbling on about the shit he preaches within the the hello/welcome section he would have stood a chance.

Personally what he was doing is preaching bullshit in a marketing machine fashion..

Someone who can write a responce the size of blackpool tower withing 2 mins is clearly a psycho..

So what did you learn within his bable people eh? Yeh nothing.

The Grand Wazoo
23-10-2009, 22:00
Andre,
You need to stay away from Hamish.
Your spelling is shite too!!

Sorry, Elizabethan.

Rare Bird
23-10-2009, 22:05
Spellins more that shite it's terrible.As long as you get the jist don't worry.

Alex_UK
23-10-2009, 22:56
I'm reckoning the day-long sesh on the pop doesn't help, either!?

FWIW, Shippy (whoever) IMHO came here deliberately for a row, and to try and put the cat amongst the pigeons. After all the stuff I've read, as I said before, it may seem harsh, but the forum is better off without him.

The Vinyl Adventure
24-10-2009, 00:02
Andre,
You need to stay away from Hamish.
Your spelling is shite too!!

Sorry, Elizabethan.

ha-ha, its contagious... i hope it spreads to you! ;)

The Vinyl Adventure
24-10-2009, 00:04
Spellins more that shite it's terrible.As long as you get the jist don't worry.

ritgh on brova!!
you can be in my gang :lolsign:

Marco
24-10-2009, 00:07
Doesn't he need a funny mutant's toe and a wee willy for that? :lol: :ner:

;)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
24-10-2009, 00:15
... how do you know he doesnt?

Marco
24-10-2009, 00:19
I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt ;)

Marco.

StanleyB
24-10-2009, 08:40
It's a difficult one to judge, especially someone like me who has had to endure all sorts of attacks on myself and my products.
I do agree though that pushing one's favourable view of a technology can become tiring to others. That's why I hardly describe what I do and why I do it in terms of technological advancement. Instead I leave it up to the individual to listen and decide if what they hear pleases them. The technology is there to aid in the development and make things sound better.
A case in point is my new Caiman power supply. I haven't been bragging on and on about how good it is in my eyes etc. What I did instead is to offer a full money back guarantee if the technology embedded in it did not make any difference to the listening experience. If the end-user can't hear a difference, then there is no difference. Right?
I discovered long time ago that no matter how much engineering and apparent advantages one particular technology has over another, it's the end user who decides what's right for them. Roll on betamax etc.
Where shippy, and many others go wrong, is believing that only their method and recommendation is the right one, and that everyone else who doesn't go along with that idea must be reeducated with force. Fortunately, in the audio domain we still have enough freedom to make up our own mind.

Joe
24-10-2009, 09:08
Well said, especially the last bit: 'Where shippy, and many others go wrong, is believing that only their method and recommendation is the right one, and that everyone else who doesn't go along with that idea must be reeducated with force.'

Gazjam
24-10-2009, 10:05
It's a difficult one to judge, especially someone like me who has had to endure all sorts of attacks on myself and my products.
I do agree though that pushing one's favourable view of a technology can become tiring to others. That's why I hardly describe what I do and why I do it in terms of technological advancement. Instead I leave it up to the individual to listen and decide if what they hear pleases them. The technology is there to aid in the development and make things sound better.
A case in point is my new Caiman power supply. I haven't been bragging on and on about how good it is in my eyes etc. What I did instead is to offer a full money back guarantee if the technology embedded in it did not make any difference to the listening experience. If the end-user can't hear a difference, then there is no difference. Right?
I discovered long time ago that no matter how much engineering and apparent advantages one particular technology has over another, it's the end user who decides what's right for them. Roll on betamax etc.
Where shippy, and many others go wrong, is believing that only their method and recommendation is the right one, and that everyone else who doesn't go along with that idea must be reeducated with force. Fortunately, in the audio domain we still have enough freedom to make up our own mind.

+1
Good post.

DSJR
24-10-2009, 19:38
.......remembering the early brainwashed eighties...............

......and someone else who pulled a once successful ship down and jumped ship before she sank without trace............................................. .................................................. .................

Haselsh1
24-10-2009, 22:19
Well said, especially the last bit: 'Where shippy, and many others go wrong, is believing that only their method and recommendation is the right one, and that everyone else who doesn't go along with that idea must be reeducated with force.'


Kind of sounds like the Godsquad all over again...!!!

Haselsh1
24-10-2009, 22:24
Back in the eighties myself and three friends tested the Belt electret foils and came up with some very positive results. These foils radically changed the sound of the CD's we treated using a Cambridge CD2. All four of us concluded that they worked.

Stratmangler
24-10-2009, 22:42
Back in the eighties myself and three friends tested the Belt electret foils and came up with some very positive results. These foils radically changed the sound of the CD's we treated using a Cambridge CD2. All four of us concluded that they worked.

And do you still use these foils ? If not, why not ?

Chris:)

Haselsh1
24-10-2009, 22:50
Hey, we got some foils many years back as a bit of a tester, I have no idea where they came from. I know it must have been around 1989. After carefully cutting them to the required shape we used them on a variety of CD's and the results for us four were conclusive. Christ, one of the CD's was a Status Quo album...!

Having moved on since those days and having said 'Cheers' to those friends I no longer use anything by PWB. I still find his 'preachings' very interesting though. I never forgot those findings.

Stratmangler
24-10-2009, 22:57
I used the green pens (not provided by PWB) for a while, and was sure that the sound from CD was better as a result. Then one day I couldn't find the then current pen, and never got around to replacing it. I suppose that that item requires some re-investigation.

Chris:)

Themis
25-10-2009, 06:40
Imho, pre-ASRC dacs had inherent design problems, making them abnormally sensitive to transport data quality.
Modern dacs and players are less sensitive to pens. ;)

Marco
25-10-2009, 08:28
The green pen thing works to a small degree (I've tried it in the past) - it's to do with preventing light scattering around the edges of the disc (or something like that). I've heard the effect, and there seems to be a reasonable mechanism behind why it should work, unlike 'IF devices' and putting cream on lightbulbs :mental:

However, who can be arsed colouring all their CDs with a green pen to get a miniscule sonic improvement, not to mention that it devalues your discs should you ever wish to sell them?

It's getting into this sort of ridiculous, obsessive, 'tweaky' mindset with hi-fi that I feel is a dangerous thing and completely counterproductive to one's enjoyment of music, which is what this hobby of ours is ultimately supposed to be about.

Nope, by all means invest some time and money in setting up your system properly with regard to proper equipment supports, cables, etc, as these are all fundamental in enabling your equipment to perform optimally, but leave the 'Beltist' nonsense where it belongs - in the la-la land of the fantasists!

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
25-10-2009, 14:49
It's getting into this sort of ridiculous, obsessive, 'tweaky' mindset with hi-fi that I feel is a dangerous thing and completely counterproductive to one's enjoyment of music, which is what this hobby of ours is ultimately supposed to be about.

Marco.

that was literally my first gut response to all this beltism stuff (I think I posted acordingly but I can't be bothered to go wading through those threads)... Works or not works ... You could go mad tweeking, untweeking, doing all the tiny little devices .. And to what end? Well I think shippy is the perfect example! I recon he has literally driven him self into obsesion! He has spent so long worrying and thinking and probably dreaming about this stuff that it's turned him into a maniac that trawls the Internet picking fights with any one who doesn't belive!

The Vinyl Adventure
25-10-2009, 14:55
Actually, I don't know if anyone remembers, but I asked him if it could work because he beleives it works, he went tits at me saying it's not a "belief" it's a "science" ... Then towards the end of his rambleings he repeatedly refered to it as a belief! I was tempted to call him up on it but couldn't be bothered in the end

Marco
25-10-2009, 15:20
that was literally my first gut response to all this beltism stuff (I think I posted acordingly but I can't be bothered to go wading through those threads)... Works or not works ... You could go mad tweeking, untweeking, doing all the tiny little devices .. And to what end? Well I think shippy is the perfect example! I recon he has literally driven him self into obsesion! He has spent so long worrying and thinking and probably dreaming about this stuff that it's turned him into a maniac that trawls the Internet picking fights with any one who doesn't belive!

I think you could potentially make as good a psychologist as you do a photographer, Hamish :)

Marco.

DSJR
25-10-2009, 17:58
I still have many discs with green or black felt pen around them. I think the reasoning behind it was nullified to an extent as CD transports and the discs themselves were "improved."

I still have one Judi Tzuke CD (Left Hand Talking) which needed all the help it could get to sound as emotionally intense as the vinyl did. I think the myriad of Beltish tweaks it still has on it have worked quite well...

Marco
25-10-2009, 19:07
Hi Dave,


I still have many discs with green or black felt pen around them. I think the reasoning behind it was nullified to an extent as CD transports and the discs themselves were "improved."


Discs themselves may have been improved (although I'm not exactly sure where), but in the vast majority of cases CD transports haven't - especially since the advent of the use of cheap OEM plastic DVD-ROM drives in CD-only players.

One only has to look at the build quality of the CD transports (and that overall of the players themselves) used in mid-price CDPs from the likes of Marantz and Sony from the late 80s/early 90s, to those in their equivalent models today, to notice that material and build quality have taken a significant nose dive.

Poor CD transport quality is one of the reasons why Squeezeboxes, PS3s, and various music streaming devices, often easily outperform their current CDP counterparts in terms of how faithfully they reproduce music, providing a decent DAC is used. I think that Cyrus are one of the few manufacturers of affordable CDPs who design their own high quality disc transport mechanism - and sonically it makes a big difference.

It's one of the reasons why I will never sell my 'built like a brick shithouse' classic Sony X-777ES, with its bespoke all-diecast metal transport mechanism; in total as a player it weighs over 20kg and sounds simply stunning! :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
25-10-2009, 19:10
I think you could potentially make as good a psychologist as you do a photographer, Hamish :)

Marco.

Funnily enough I have thought I might one day train as a couciler of some type. I do find all that sort of think very fasinating

DSJR
25-10-2009, 19:35
Marco, I'll try to expand - almost twenty years ago, once mastering techniques had been sorted out (IMO), the discs themselves had sloppy tolerances, made worse with mechs like the Sony's and Philips CD-M9 which seemed able to track bad CD's as Shures can do with LP records. As I remember, Philips tightened up the CD manufacturing tolerances and the transport manufacturers seemed to align and build their players so that only "red book" standard discs would properly play. This seemed to make many discs unplayable, or at least, track badly.

That's how I see it, but reality may have been different elsewhere.....

Marco
25-10-2009, 19:40
Interesting. I think you'd agree though that in terms of CD transport quality in general things most certainly haven't improved... Just take a look at what's in your own classic spinner and compare it to your average CDP today, and you'll see what I mean! :)

Certainly what's used in the Sony is only comparable with the likes of the Teac VRDS Neo mechanism, used in the top Esoteric players costing in excess of five figures.

Marco.

Cotlake
25-10-2009, 21:17
Yep, I agree on the transport issue. I am now using a very heavily tweaked Naim CD3 and I have to say, regardless of my general dislike for Naim products, I'm really chuffed with this player, although no doubt the tweaking that's gone on is significant. However, on transport, this Naim is individually different and you can tell that. Many don't like the transport swinging out through 90 degrees and the need for a magnetic puk, but I'm rather impressed. Certainly I have an anologue sound from a digital source without loss of detail. I like it and I'm very happy so it's a keeper :)

Actually, it's the first CDP that has really satisfied me, but the modifications are the reason here. I've listened to a basic Naim CD3 and in my view it was awful.

Regards,

Greg

DSJR
25-10-2009, 21:20
The CD-M9 is a fantastic tracker and the Arcam Alpha 5 and 6 machines were the best we had of these IIRC. The version in your CD 3 can be repaired/replaced by Les at Avondale too, so unlike us, your machine may outlive us all :)

Marco
25-10-2009, 23:00
Hi Greg,


Yep, I agree on the transport issue. I am now using a very heavily tweaked Naim CD3 and I have to say, regardless of my general dislike for Naim products, I'm really chuffed with this player, although no doubt the tweaking that's gone on is significant.


Things have obviously moved on a bit since I last heard where you were 'at' in terms of digital sources. I seem to remember you being somewhat sceptical of the benefits of a good transport mechanism and were using a DVD player to spin your discs, like many of the other chaps were on audio-talk ;)

The main focus always seemed to be on the DAC. Or maybe I've got that wrong and am thinking of someone else?


Actually, it's the first CDP that has really satisfied me, but the modifications are the reason here. I've listened to a basic Naim CD3 and in my view it was awful.


Interesting. So what exactly were the modifications and was it your good self who carried them out? :)

Marco.

Cotlake
26-10-2009, 22:05
Hi Marco,

Like others, I certainly bought a Pioneer DV 575a player and experimented with it for CD playback and quickly decided it didn't cut the mustard and for me did not warrant doing all the associated upgrading. I've retained it simply for playing films which it does well considering the original price.

You probably are thinking of someone else as this was never a major project for me. In the end I stuck with my Marantz CD 6000KIS which I sold when the tweaked Naim CD3 arrived. In the meantime, I'd bought a Beresford which worked well with the Marantz, but the Naim has on board tweaked DAC which I'm happy with. There is no option for it to be used with the Naim. The Beresford is now relegated to the Pioneer for film only.

I didn't mod the Naim personally. It was a professional job and I understand cost alot of money. Unfortunately I currently don't have/recall the detail but I've inquired of the seller and hopefully he'll come back and I'll be able to fill in a bit. Some of those Phillip's crowned chips are involved which I know you like ;)

I'll expand when I know more.

Regards,

Greg

Steve Toy
27-10-2009, 02:05
Was it an Avondale mod? If so, I heard it years ago and it was excellent.

Steve Toy
29-10-2009, 01:38
Soundhaspriority/Shippy/Ben Stillman etc

If you post on this forum again I'll open a thread to discuss your mental state and possible remedies. :lol:

Cotlake
29-10-2009, 22:37
It seems my CD3 has had the Avondale treatment :)

DSJR
29-10-2009, 22:47
That means it'll be as good as or better than most mid-priced machines today :)