Jazz on Vinyl at your News Agent and Supermarket NOW !!!! [Archive]

Oldpinkman

20-01-2016, 16:41

So has anyone taken a punt at the first one of these https://www.deagostini.com/uk/collections/jazz-vinyl/ Kind Of Blue

Saw it today and on the face of it £4.99 for the first seems a more than fair price, but is it any good ? Who pressed these, what masters were used. Lots of unanswered questions.

Never thought I would see the day that a record and magazine would be for sale in the shops like this again, been a very long time since the last.

Looks interesting. I think I'll try to pick up the first and have a listen. The "hook" is that they go up to £14.99 for the 3rd and subsequent issues. My last DeAgostini series was the radio control aeroplane Spitfire - which was fascinating and fun, and got me (with my son) to join a club and learn more, but I think it cost me £800 to build a £400 plane.

To stay "in" you need a steady availability of £15. I am happy to pay that for a good LP, and the first 2 are of interest (I already have "enough" Billie Holliday). A decent vinyl copy of "Take 5" would be nice. Got to be worth trying the first one. So I will! :cool:

Good spot Neil!

struth

20-01-2016, 16:51

Dint see a definative list of vinyls to come. At 15 a pop its a lot if many are not to your choice.

Spectral Morn

20-01-2016, 16:54

I don't have Kind of Blue on vinyl so I may give it ago too. I was just wondering if anyone had tried it yet.

Folkboy

20-01-2016, 18:15

Looks interesting. I think I'll try to pick up the first and have a listen. The "hook" is that they go up to £14.99 for the 3rd and subsequent issues. My last DeAgostini series was the radio control aeroplane Spitfire - which was fascinating and fun, and got me (with my son) to join a club and learn more, but I think it cost me £800 to build a £400 plane.

To stay "in" you need a steady availability of £15. I am happy to pay that for a good LP, and the first 2 are of interest (I already have "enough" Billie Holliday). A decent vinyl copy of "Take 5" would be nice. Got to be worth trying the first one. So I will! :cool:

Good spot Neil!

I'm about 23% tempted (down from 276% TAKE MY MONEY). So how many issues do you need to buy for the record cleaning kit? The t-shirt? The wooden box storage?

Found out a bit more from another forum:

Didn't realise it's two issues per month at £14.99 a pop (3rd issue onwards) and the only way to cancel is via a premium rate phone line.

To get the boxes it's an extra £1 on your subscription so (£15.99), you'll get the first box after 3rd issue, and second box on the tenth.

So that's a "no" for me.

trio leo

20-01-2016, 20:05

I'm afraid I don't trust companies that send you their choice of goodiies, with all the little extra bits added on as afforementioned, the current model car from DeAgostini works out at £900, so that's a no from me, I'M OUT.

Cheers Al

Spectral Morn

20-01-2016, 22:32

Average price of Jazz records seems to be about the £15 so these aren't dear, unless the pressing and mastering transfer is crap, in which case then its way too dear.

The models you buy the parts for are indeed a rip off imho.

Spectral Morn

21-01-2016, 18:09

I was up in Belfast today, looking for Jan's issue of Stereophile I suspect my local branch of Eason's has stopped stocking it, as they have a number of other magazines. Anyway they had the Jazz at 33 and a third issue One so I bought it.

Not listened to the album yet, but the visual good news is this looks like a decent pressing, no warp, clean, soft decent quality inner sleeve. Looks like this is co done with Sony's special products department and its been pressed in the EU. On the back of the LP's back sleeve, bottom edge, print identify's this as a DeAgostini item, with info relating to Sony participation.

The inner sleeve with information about the recording is ok, but no great shakes - 8 pages with 2 of those the front and back. I had hoped for a more extensive booklet.

Looks like this is a ten issue deal.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/002_550x412_zpswt53lpwn.jpg (http://s549.photobucket.com/user/davros124/media/002_550x412_zpswt53lpwn.jpg.html)

Oldpinkman

25-01-2016, 17:09

Be rude not to

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/jazz%20at%2033_zps53vtzwhy.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/jazz%20at%2033_zps53vtzwhy.jpg.html)

Oldpinkman

25-01-2016, 17:09

duplicate

take5

25-01-2016, 17:16

walpurgis

25-01-2016, 17:31

I got mine today also.

I would like to lose the green sticker! I know...... its on the shrink wrap.... but I like to keep that in place.

Any ideas on how to remove this sticker from the shrink wrap, without damaging the shrink wrap. ?

If the sticker is paper, paint it with spray furniture polish and allow it to soak through. That will soften the adhesive. You may need to do this a few times to loosen it properly before peeling it off very gently. It won't work on non-porous stickers.

Ali Tait

25-01-2016, 18:18

Given this a punt via mail order. A couple of lads on Audio Talk have given the first issue a go, and report that it is a decent quality pressing with good sound, so worth a go methinks.

Oldpinkman

25-01-2016, 19:18

I was a bit concerned when it was lying flat under the model mustang edition in a basket. But the pressing is perfect. Flat as a board, quiet as a church mouse. The recording is pure analogue bliss - warts n all. But for all the strain and analogue vintage, it is a lovely record. Somehow this sort of jazz sounds right for being vintage. I almost crave an occasional pop or crackle, but this pressing is silent as the night. I'll buy the next one and if it's this good subscribe. Even at £15 a pop this is just what I was looking for

:cool:

Spectral Morn

26-01-2016, 12:17

Oldpinkman

26-01-2016, 14:30

I've just had a naughty half hour lunch break and listened to the 2nd side of that again. I know it has a limited frequency response (so do my ears). In one or two spots are quite obvious distortion. And obviously limited dynamic range.

But it is SO much more real than any modern recording. A couple of glasses of scotch, lights down, bit of cigar smoke, and you are there. Really there. Maybe all the clues to what's real are in the "middle frequencies" - so the super duper high frequency stuff has no real affect. Maybe its colouration and live music is coloured the same way. I have plenty of new "vinyl" in good condition which we maybe think we prefer to CD, but at least enjoy the LP experience (I have a short attention span - 15 to 20 minutes before getting up to turn the record over is fine for me). But none of them sound real like this, or my old Joan Armatrading LP, or hundreds of pre-digital recordings.

What is it about analogue recording?

It's not the digital per se - its reminded me the latest Dave Migden and the Twisted Roots LP had that same "realness" although I have it only on a CD. But it was recorded and mixed all analogue in the studio.

If I shut my eyes listening to this I keep expecting someone to bump into me on their way back from the bar. :cool:

Macca

26-01-2016, 15:42

What is it about analogue recording?

:

Nothing. It is the way it is recorded that makes all the difference, not whether you store the resulting waveform on a hard drive or on magnetic tape.

Arkless Electronics

26-01-2016, 15:49

It seems such a pity that this new wave of vinyl popularity seems to be getting served up on plastic platters of such shite turntables that you would not know if the source was vinyl, cassette, MP3 or whatever after it has gone through such music mangling garbage :stalks:
It seems to be a nostalgia novelty for those too young to actually remember vinyl IMHO.

Oldpinkman

26-01-2016, 17:23

Nothing. It is the way it is recorded that makes all the difference, not whether you store the resulting waveform on a hard drive or on magnetic tape.

You must be right. But it doesn't always seem that way

I guess in part - in this case - it is the simplicity of the recording. It is very un-layered, almost a bit "left / right". Maybe its just "raw" compared to modern recording techniques.

But it breathes. And whilst it may well be you could take that and stick it on a CD and it would stay the same - it doesnt seem anybody records anything like that any more

There is an illusion of reality. And its a Dynamo quality illusion - so in a way it ends up more real than real.

I guess , going back to my original point about dynamic range and frequency response - the important bits of what make a recording real seem to be in the "Middle" -and not dependent on straining the performance limits of equipment.

If I can find a spare copy, and I certainly had some, I'll send you "Animal and Man" and then let you give me that answer again. (But even that feels a touch "digital" compared with this LP)

Macca

26-01-2016, 18:47

DarrenHW

26-01-2016, 18:59

It seems to be a nostalgia novelty for those too young to actually remember vinyl IMHO.

Born in 79, that's exactly what records are for me.

It seems such a pity that this new wave of vinyl popularity seems to be getting served up on plastic platters of such shite turntables that you would not know if the source was vinyl, cassette, MP3 or whatever after it has gone through such music mangling garbage :stalks: .

:wheniwasaboy:

I completely agree but fail to see the difference to your glory days, how many member's first TT was a Pioneer PL12D? :vomfest:

Marco

26-01-2016, 19:40

I agree I don't think it is anything to do with the frequncey response of the recording either. And rawness is right. They were not smothering the recording with all manner of processing. Just record the takes, plus they knew how to get the abslute best out of what they had.

Indeed, and remind me of which type of technology was around at the time when the original album was produced (1959)? ;)

Pinky, talented engineers aside (and that's undoubtedly very significant) I think you'll find that another contributory factor towards the kind of sound you've described, the good bits (nicely done, btw), comes from the judicious employing of 'glowing bottles', used in the studio's (very high-quality) microphones and mixing desks, where said Miles Davis recording was made.

Anyway, I've seen the adverts on TV, and am absolutely delighted that vinyl records are receiving such promotion on prime-time television. It's yet more definitive proof that its current resurgence in popularity is far from being a 'flash in the pan'!

:exactly:

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

26-01-2016, 19:52

Born in 79, that's exactly what records are for me.

.

:wheniwasaboy:

I completely agree but fail to see the difference to your glory days, how many member's first TT was a Pioneer PL12D? :vomfest:

The point I was trying to get across was that apart from being a yoof novelty at the moment I reckon most of the yoofs buying it are playing it on something with the SQ of a ghetto blaster.... and then giving it "listen to that vinyl warmth dude, yeah loads of clicks and pops keep it real".

I hope it's not a flash in the pan and sure it will draw in a few to the depravity of hi fi and its upgrade-itus but I reckon for many a novelty it is.

struth

26-01-2016, 20:20

walpurgis

26-01-2016, 20:29

Marco

26-01-2016, 20:36

My neighbour was telling me all his daughters pals are now into vinyl; its the new cool...she's about 20...speaks volumes I think

Indeed, because what you have to remember (or indeed hope), and something that I think Jez is missing, is that the MORE youngsters who are exposed to vinyl records, and play them now on whatever they play them on (that bit isn't really important), the MORE chance there is of the discerning ones moving onto using better playback gear in future! ;)

I can say as a matter of fact (as I've talked to a few, some of whom are relatives), that not all teenagers who are into music, don't care and/or are unable to tell a good sound from a bad one; SOME actually *do* care about sound quality. One read, for example, of the Steve Hoffman forum, where many youngsters there regularly discuss the ins and outs of 'optimizing their vinyls', confirms that...

Therefore, the more 'mainstream' vinyl becomes, the better chance we've got of 'recruiting' new 'audiophiles' to help keep high-end audio alive!! :exactly:

The problem is, 'nurturing' them to that point in the correct way, and that would take some careful handling. The last thing you'd want it to send them into your average 'high-end' hi-fi dealership, populated by technophobic dinosaurs, old enough to be their granddads, who are not only completely out of touch with their needs, but (in general) too snooty/arrogant to consider them as 'worthy' customers.... :rolleyes:

It's going to take a fresh, forward-thinking approach/business to successfully 'capture' the youngsters, who love music, graduating from using their "plastic platters on shite turntables", to something better. I reckon, however, that it would be a great business opportunity for someone who's suitably 'switched on'!

Marco.

Marco

26-01-2016, 20:37

I reckon a lot of the current interest in record playing is just a fashion fad for many and will become 'old hat' before too long and the vinyl bubble will burst, leaving the interest to the more serious enthusiasts.

Sorry, Geoff. I completely disagree. I believe that the current popularity of vinyl goes rather deeper than that. See my previous post :)

You're right though, time will tell!

Marco.

walpurgis

26-01-2016, 20:41

We shall see mate. :D

Arkless Electronics

26-01-2016, 20:47

Indeed, because what you have to remember (or indeed hope), and something that I think Jez is missing, is that the MORE youngsters who are exposed to vinyl records, and play them now on whatever they play them on (that bit isn't really important), the MORE chance there is of the discerning ones moving onto using better playback gear in future! ;)

I can say as a matter of fact (as I've talked to a few, some of whom are relatives), that not all teenagers who are into music, don't care and/or are unable to tell a good sound from a bad one, and SOME *do* care about sound quality. One read, for example, of the Steve Hoffman forum, where many youngsters there regularly discuss the ins and outs of 'optimizing their vinyls', confirms that...

Therefore, the more 'mainstream' vinyl becomes, the better chance we've got of 'recruiting' new 'audiophiles' to help keep high-end audio alive!! :exactly:

The problem is, 'nurturing' them to that point in the correct way, and that would take some careful handling. The last thing you'd want it to send them into your average hi-fi dealership, populated by technophobic dinosaurs old enough to be their granddads, who are not only completely out of touch with their needs, but (in general) too snooty/arrogant to consider them as 'worthy' customers.... :rolleyes:

It's going to take a fresh, forward-thinking approach/business to successfully 'capture' the youngsters, who love music, graduating from using their "plastic platters on shite turntables" to something better. I reckon, however, that it would be a great business opportunity for someone!

Marco.

I did say the same although in much fewer words ;)

Marco

26-01-2016, 20:48

Ok, cool. That's not what I gleaned though, from what you wrote :)

Marco.

Marco

26-01-2016, 20:54

We shall see mate. :D

Well, who'd have thought that back in 1983 (at the dawn of CD, and 'perfect sound forever', haha), we'd be where we are now, with vinyl, in 2016? ;)

The irony is, it's CD that's on its way out, not the medium it supposedly replaced!

Marco.

struth

26-01-2016, 21:00

The ironing of it ;)

Arkless Electronics

26-01-2016, 21:16

Ok, cool. That's not what I gleaned though, from what you wrote :)

Marco.

"sure it will draw in a few to the depravity of hi fi and its upgrade-itus but I reckon for many a novelty it is. " ;)

Arkless Electronics

26-01-2016, 21:21

Marco

26-01-2016, 21:22

"sure it will draw in a few to the depravity of hi fi and its upgrade-itus but I reckon for many a novelty it is. " ;)

Yup. Just didn't quite read that way first time round :)

Marco.

Marco

26-01-2016, 21:24

I bought (on behalf of a friends parents, from J.G Windows in Newcastle. Philips/Marantz CD63)) a CD player on the day they were released for sale in march 1983.... I said then that they won't catch on :D

Ha - indeed! There's no doubt that, as far as digital is concerned, the future is FBA :exactly:

CDs will go the way of the Dodo, sooner rather than later, whilst vinyl continues to prosper... As ever, the cream (in this case eventually), always floats to the top! ;)

Marco.

struth

26-01-2016, 21:28

Ha - indeed! There's no doubt that, as far as digital is concerned, the future is FBA :exactly:

CDs will go the way of the Dodo, sooner rather than later, whilst vinyl continues to prosper... As ever, the cream always floats to the top! ;)

Marco.

well yours does Del tells me ;)

Marco

26-01-2016, 21:38

:lolsign:

You're getting as bad as me!

Marco.

DarrenHW

27-01-2016, 00:03

The point I was trying to get across was that apart from being a yoof novelty at the moment I reckon most of the yoofs buying it are playing it on something with the SQ of a ghetto blaster.... and then giving it "listen to that vinyl warmth dude, yeah loads of clicks and pops keep it real".

I hope it's not a flash in the pan and sure it will draw in a few to the depravity of hi fi and its upgrade-itus but I reckon for many a novelty it is.

Point taken but, I think you underestimate the "yoofs", weren't you one of them once :).

Indeed, because what you have to remember (or indeed hope), and something that I think Jez is missing, is that the MORE youngsters who are exposed to vinyl records, and play them now on whatever they play them on (that bit isn't really important), the MORE chance there is of the discerning ones moving onto using better playback gear in future! ;)

I can say as a matter of fact (as I've talked to a few, some of whom are relatives), that not all teenagers who are into music, don't care and/or are unable to tell a good sound from a bad one; SOME actually *do* care about sound quality. One read, for example, of the Steve Hoffman forum, where many youngsters there regularly discuss the ins and outs of 'optimizing their vinyls', confirms that...
Therefore, the more 'mainstream' vinyl becomes, the better chance we've got of 'recruiting' new 'audiophiles' to help keep high-end audio alive!! :exactly:

The problem is, 'nurturing' them to that point in the correct way, and that would take some careful handling. The last thing you'd want it to send them into your average hi-fi dealership, populated by technophobic dinosaurs, old enough to be their granddads, who are not only completely out of touch with their needs, but (in general) too snooty/arrogant to consider them as 'worthy' customers.... :rolleyes:

It's going to take a fresh, forward-thinking approach/business to successfully 'capture' the youngsters, who love music, graduating from using their "plastic platters on shite turntables", to something better. I reckon, however, that it would be a great business opportunity for someone who's suitably 'switched on'!

Marco.

:exactly: De Agostini have seen an opportunity and whilst taking a rather retrospective approach (when was the last time you saw vinyl on a magazine?) are responding to what they see as customer demand in a viable market, many could learn from this.

I reckon a lot of the current interest in record playing is just a fashion fad for many and will become 'old hat' before too long and the vinyl bubble will burst, leaving the interest to the more serious enthusiasts.

Trouble is, when that happens we may see a repeat of the recession of vinyl availability and increasing exclusivity of new turntables and arms. Much as was experienced in the eighties.

See how things are in a couple of years!

Sadly I feel the same :(.

Marco

27-01-2016, 00:28

I reckon a lot of the current interest in record playing is just a fashion fad for many and will become 'old hat' before too long and the vinyl bubble will burst, leaving the interest to the more serious enthusiasts.

Sadly I feel the same :(.

I don't necessarily disagree with that side of it. However, the appreciation of something as specialist in nature as 'high-end hifi', has always been a rather niche one, and so not a hobby for the masses.

Therefore, the same thing applies to the current resurgence in vinyl: those who've adopted it as a 'fashion fad' (perhaps the undiscerning majority) are not into it for the right reasons, and so will simply lose interest in due course, and find some other fad to follow. That's normal.

However, if enough new interest in vinyl is created amongst the general public, then by the law of averages, you'll get a proportion of the discerning ones who'll stick with it, just like we have/did - and I believe that, due to the increasing mainstream exposure vinyl is currently receiving, that proportion of discerning listeners will be enough to sustain the existence of vinyl, and to an extent, high-end audio, as we currently know it, well into the future :)

I'll save that post for posterity, and quote it again (say in 15 years time), if AoS and I still exist, and what I've predicted becomes a reality! ;)

Marco.

Oldpinkman

27-01-2016, 07:33

Indeed, and remind me of which type of technology was around at the time when the original album was produced (1959)? ;)

Pinky, talented engineers aside (and that's undoubtedly very significant) I think you'll find that another contributory factor towards the kind of sound you've described, the good bits (nicely done, btw), comes from the judicious employing of 'glowing bottles', used in the studio's (very high-quality) microphones and mixing desks, where said Miles Davis recording was made.

Marco.

I am sure there is much in what you say Marco. I just love the sound of the valves in my Fender Blues Junior with the neck humbucker on my Washburn guitar. It makes just the sort of sound I seek. And the Twisted Roots had a lot of valve gear in their recording session (they use valve amps on stage for the guitars and bass anyway).

But for my hifi I dont want to take the sound on the record and makes something else from it. I don't want a valvy Miles Davis album made even more valvy. And anyway, that valve sound I am enjoying on 50's jazz I described as an illusion of reality - but one as convincing as a Dynamo illusion, and so still enjoyable for that. And its compressed, and suffers some resulting distortions.

It creates a beautiful illusion of real - in a way missing from many sterile wider bandwidth recordings , but not "closer fidelity". A warm , better than real, suits jazz music, smoke and whisky sort of illusion of reality. I love it! And fancy a collection of it :)

Oldpinkman

27-01-2016, 07:45

I reckon a lot of the current interest in record playing is just a fashion fad for many and will become 'old hat' before too long and the vinyl bubble will burst, leaving the interest to the more serious enthusiasts.

Trouble is, when that happens we may see a repeat of the recession of vinyl availability and increasing exclusivity of new turntables and arms. Much as was experienced in the eighties.

See how things are in a couple of years!

I'm not so sure. At all. For years now, Arthur has been telling me he is not insane for making Analogue audio products, and vinyl is reviving. Until 2 years ago I kept asking him what he was smoking and where I could get some

But progressively vinyl is making a proper comeback. Yes a lot of kids buy it for the cult status, and put them unopened on the wall. But a lot get something to play them round. A lot come round to my house (and others like it) and their step son says "this is my step-fathers VINYL" - and endure a wierdos hobby. 5 years ago they were enduring a wierdos hobby. Now they all want to sit and listen to it. So they go away knowing what it can sound like and maybe wondering if they want a bit of that

That's what happened to me - of course, vinyl was the only available medium when I started buying records, but a friend taking me round to another friends house to hear a proper stereo with big speakers sowed the seed

Everything is released on vinyl now - and usually sells out. It is a small niche, but a valuable one to record companies looking at how to preserve revenue in a world of downloading and easy piracy. Its a marketing technique known as "skimming" (similar to releasing the hardback before the paperback, before the penguin edition) and since it is manifestly in their interests financially, it is likely to receive their ongoing support. Vinyl is now a premium medium for recorded music which commands a "top" price and can't be stolen (as easily)

I remember 1983 and that Phillips CD player too Jez. A vinyl LP was £6 and the CD version £9. We all know that has nothing to do with manufacturing costs, and everything to do with "price skimming". The real irony is that today the CD is still a tenner, and the vinyl version £15 to £20. And I go out and buy them :doh:

Marco

27-01-2016, 10:26

I am sure there is much in what you say Marco. I just love the sound of the valves in my Fender Blues Junior with the neck humbucker on my Washburn guitar. It makes just the sort of sound I seek. And the Twisted Roots had a lot of valve gear in their recording session (they use valve amps on stage for the guitars and bass anyway).

But for my hifi I dont want to take the sound on the record and makes something else from it. I don't want a valvy Miles Davis album made even more valvy. And anyway, that valve sound I am enjoying on 50's jazz I described as an illusion of reality - but one as convincing as a Dynamo illusion, and so still enjoyable for that. And its compressed, and suffers some resulting distortions.

It creates a beautiful illusion of real - in a way missing from many sterile wider bandwidth recordings , but not "closer fidelity". A warm , better than real, suits jazz music, smoke and whisky sort of illusion of reality. I love it! And fancy a collection of it :)

That's cool, but you're kind of missing my point....

We'll have strongly agree to differ on what valves do, when it comes to replay equipment, and also when it comes to recording equipment, as for me, the best of the breed, when used correctly, succeed in increasing realism, i.e. making voices and instruments sound more LIFELIKE (one could say 'accurate', but I prefer the term 'lifelike', as I consider it's more appropriate when discussing the reproduction of music), not creating some 'cosy sounding' artifice, in the way you appear to imply - and in that respect, experience tells me the best examples of that are superior to anything SS has to offer.

I only used your Miles Davis album as an example, but I could cite numerous other, even better sounding ones, from the classical and jazz music golden era (on, say, RCA Living Voice or Mercury Living Presence or Blue Note, respectively), also recorded in the late 50s, all of which possess the sheer realism/lifelike qualities I'm referring to, and sound *absolutely stunning*, in a way that most modern recordings don't (on either vinyl or digital) - and that's not just because of what the sound engineers are doing now or not, but down to the equipment itself.

It's precisely why some of the best studios in the world today (populated by discerning sound engineers) insist on employing the use of their vintage Neumann U47s, (the Telefunken version of which Sinatra insisted on using at Capitol - now you know one of the reasons why his albums always sound *so* good! ;)), Ampex tape machines, etc, and Neve mixing desks, as the judicious use of that equipment can capture the realistic tone and dynamics of live voices and instruments like nothing else.

That is also why I seek those traits in valve playback equipment: not to create a 'rose-tinted false illusion', but to faithfully capture and reproduce the very lifelike qualities I've described, which exist on the recordings discussed.

Marco.

Marco

27-01-2016, 10:41

Here's an interesting article to read on valve microphones, and why the best ones are so significant and sought after: http://www.recording-microphones.co.uk/Neumann-U47-tube.shtml

Note this in particular:

It's this model U47 that has become the stuff of recording legend. On the Beatle's Rubber Soul album, virtually every track — from vocals, drums, guitars and the tambourine — were recorded with a Neumann U47 and George Martin has written that simply it's his favorite microphone. Frank Sinatra refused to record without his “Telly,” as the mic was nicknamed and his record label Mercury Records promoted the U 47 as its Living Presence microphone, putting the mic's image on its record covers. Sound engineer Bill Porter used it exclusively on recordings by Elvis Presley, the Everly Brothers and most of Roy Orbison's hits. The list goes on and on and on and on........

Apart from great music (if you like it), what do all those albums have in common? They all sound STUNNING! And why? Well, now you know part of the reason... ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD

27-01-2016, 16:35

Hi All,
Well, i see there are some here who still seem to think, and therefore still try and project their thoughts onto others they feel are less "knowing than them" of how valves are all pipe and slippery, and that the only reason recordings done with them have more realism is because of the distortion they are adding! :steam:
Valves, especially small signal triodes are very linear devices, [in the context of valves versus transistors] they do not need feedback around them to control their linearity, or their gain, thats one of the main reasons they have a more immediate, and effortless sound, also, take into account the voltage rails they run on,therefore, they have much greater headroom than most solid state devices.
Combine these qualities with the best microphones of the time, and sound engineers who really knew how to get the best from them, and you very often got something that is truly magical, even by today's standards!
I still use valves not because they are soft, and cuddly, anyone who has heard the stuff i have done over the years i am sure would vouch for that.
The main reasons i use them is because for me, when given the best circuitry, and components, they portray a more realistic presentation of recorded music.
And please stop comparing deliberate Distortion creating valve Guitar amplification, with the best that valves have to offer in true Hi FI equipment, they are miles apart!
And believe me, i have over twenty years experience, building, and repairing both.
A...

Macca

27-01-2016, 16:53

And please stop comparing deliberate Distortion creating valve Guitar amplification, with the best that valves have to offer in true Hi FI equipment, they are miles apart!
And believe me, i have over twenty years experience, building, and repairing both.
A...

I doubt very much that the valve amps used on those old recordings were anything like as neutral as the ones you make, but still a fair point that needed making.

The thing is that when recording it matters less because every feature or aspect of what was used to make that recording becomes part of the recording and are therefore all completely valid. It is only on playback that we need maximum accuracy and neutrality if it is to be properly called 'High Fidelity'.

Marco

27-01-2016, 16:55

Precisely, Anthony. We (discerning users/listeners) don't employ the use valves as 'sound effects devices'... :nono:

The audiophile world needs rid of that particular fallacy, as it does a complete disservice to genuine learning.

Marco.

Marco

27-01-2016, 16:57

It is only on playback that we need maximum accuracy and neutrality if it is to be properly called 'High Fidelity'.

Yup, and the best valve equipment can achieve that every bit as successfully as any solid-state stuff.

I doubt very much that the valve amps used on those old recordings were anything like as neutral as the ones you make, but still a fair point that needed making.

Well, they were obviously "neutral" enough to have produced some of the finest recordings on vinyl known to man ;)

If the equipment used was hopelessly coloured, then that effect would've translated itself onto those recordings. That's obviously not the case, which would be obvious to anyone who listened... Also such equipment wouldn't be so sought after by recording engineers, seeking to achieve the most realistic sound, if to their ears, it didn't deliver precisely that.

You're a Frank Sinatra fan, as I know you have some of his albums, so now you now know (if you didn't already), that one of the reasons they sound so good is because of the Telefunken-based Neumann microphones Sinatra insisted on using at Capitol :)

Marco.

mikmas

27-01-2016, 17:36

Here's an interesting article to read on valve microphones, and why the best ones are so significant and sought after: http://www.recording-microphones.co.uk/Neumann-U47-tube.shtml

Note this in particular:

Apart from great music (if you like it), what do all those albums have in common? They all sound STUNNING! And why? Well, now you know part of the reason... ;)

Marco.

You missed this bit:
"With a big warm tone but a lift around 8 KHz the Neumann had a brighter, more detailed sound than their favourite RCA ribbon mics and enabled the engineers of the day to place the vocal into big string arrangements without it getting lost"

That, plus the lashings of echo that many vocalists preferred (particular Lennon) would certainly account for the more cuddly sound of these old classics :lol:

Arkless Electronics

27-01-2016, 17:46

I reckon the quality of some old recordings may have more to do with the lack of processing and mucking about with the signal. The equipment largely didn't exist!
Also 2 track recorders would have been used most of the time which means no multi-tracking....

Whilst valve gear can be superb and amongst the best there is (so can SS!) and can be neutral, IMHO many hi fi valve amp users do use models of rather less than the highest rank in order to deliberately "add niceness"... knowingly or not! A good case in point is comparison of my heavily modded Leak Stereo 20 to my new prototype class A SS amp. Although the SS amp completely whoops the Leak in every area, I would wager that maybe 60% + of people would say they prefer the Leak!
In its modded form it's reasonably neutral and comparable to modern low powered valve amps in this respect. However, comparison to the class A SS amp shows that it does add a surprising amount of "niceness" to the sound with its own colourations etc. Different sources, and of course recording studios etc, have a definite similarity through the Leak but everything sounds totally different depending on how and where recorded on the SS class A amp.

Now I'm not for one moment saying ALL valve amps sound this way! I'm sure Anthony's don't and I can say that my hybrid phono stage (all signal amplification valved) would confuse even the most "golden eared" as to whether it's valve or solid state by sound alone.... However I reckon most of the more popular valve amps at reasonable price points are chosen for their coloured sound which many like. Certainly virtually all SET's and the likes of unmodded Quad II's are sound effect machines....

Ideally in hi fi we are striving for the Highest Fidelity, I.E greatest verisimilitude to the original performance.... or at least the most accurate reproduction of the recording of the original performance. As reported by many people in other older threads though, a lot of people choose their equipment for it's "niceness" and ability to make even dodgy recordings sound pretty good... not everyone wants accuracy and low colouration! Whether or not equipment that doesn't deliver accuracy, neutrality and low colouration should still be referred to as "Hi-Fi" and talked about in reverent hushed tones is a matter I'll not comment on :D

Marco

27-01-2016, 17:49

You missed this bit:
"With a big warm tone but a lift around 8 KHz the Neumann had a brighter, more detailed sound than their favourite RCA ribbon mics and enabled the engineers of the day to place the vocal into big string arrangements without it getting lost"

That, plus the lashings of echo that many vocalists preferred (particular Lennon) would certainly account for the more cuddly sound of these old classics :lol:

Ha - "cuddly", not at all, unless your system imbues that effect! :ner: If you ever visit, I'll play you some of my late 1950s albums on RCA Victor Living Voice, and I can assure you, the natural dynamics/attack present will astound you! It's almost like sitting there at a live concert.

As for the description you've quoted, it's simply a subjective one, based on the interpretation of whoever it was who made it. The reality could be something rather different, or simply different based on your own judgement criteria.

In the phono cartridge world, for example, it's rather like comparing the differences between an Ortofon SPU and an Audio-Technica OC-9.

Some listeners might consider that the SPU portrays music with a "big warm tone", when one could argue that's only because their ears are attuned to the somewhat falsely 'emasculated' sound of many modern cartridges, such as the AT, and so they consider that type of presentation as 'accurate'...

Do you prefer curvy woman with nice hips, or the thinner, sleeker variety? I presume that you see my point? ;)

And that is that, in audio, there is no officially recognised standard for 'correct' or 'best'.

Marco.

Macca

27-01-2016, 18:04

As Jez says there are a lot of valve amps that are coloured. So not all valve users are getting neutral playback. A good system should let you hear if the recording is digital or analogue and those valve amps make that hard to do. For me if it is a glassy digital recording that is what I want to hear. I don't want it softened out.

Marco

27-01-2016, 18:29

Hi Jez,

I reckon the quality of some old recordings may have more to do with the lack of processing and mucking about with the signal. The equipment largely didn't exist!

I completely agree with the first bit, and that was certainly a major contributory factor as to why some of those recordings sounded so good. However, the equipment certainly existed, as there are pictures all over the web of such equipment being used, so I'm not sure where you're coming from there.

IMHO many hi fi valve amp users do use models of rather less than the highest rank in order to deliberately "add niceness"... knowingly or not!

Again I agree, and if that's what you want, there's nothing wrong with it. However, I'm certainly not one of them, and neither are any of Anthony's customers, many of whom I know personally.

A good case in point is comparison of my heavily modded Leak Stereo 20 to my new prototype class A SS amp. Although the SS amp completely whoops the Leak in every area, I would wager that maybe 60% + of people would say they prefer the Leak!
In its modded form it's reasonably neutral and comparable to modern low powered valve amps in this respect. However, comparison to the class A SS amp shows that it does add a surprising amount of "niceness" to the sound with its own colourations etc.

First of all, every piece of audio equipment ever designed is coloured to *some* degree, but of course some a damn sight more than others!

Therefore, in some ways when choosing an amplifier, or indeed any piece of hi-fi equipment, we're (perhaps subconsciously) doing so because it exhibits the least coloration of the type that's offensive to our ears, and in turn produces a sound that we subjectively consider as 'musical'.

I think that's a better and more realistic way of looking at things, than becoming bogged down with the unrealistic notion that any amplifier, or piece of audio equipment, is *truly* 'transparent'. In terms of assessing which of the two amplifiers in question I considered was best, then which one measured better wouldn't come into it at all.

It would simply be which one, to my ears, portrayed music in the most lifelike way, based on my known benchmark of such. Therefore, I'd have to listen to both amps before forming an opinion. However, I certainly wouldn't pick the winner because it sounded 'nicer' (in a euphonic sense), that's for sure! ;)

However I reckon most of the more popular valve amps at reasonable price points are chosen for their coloured sound which many like. Certainly virtually all SET's and the likes of unmodded Quad II's are sound effect machines....

Hahaha... Yes, I'm totally with you there, (as a general rule) and I suspect Anthony is largely too, although Nick (lurcher's) superlative 300B SE amp, demonstrated at NEBO, shows that, as ever in audio, it's not what you've got, but how you use it...

However, as you correctly say, good (read as low-coloration/musically accurate/'real') sounding valve amps don't come cheap, and require designed by those who really know how to get the best out of such technology.

Ideally in hi fi we are striving for the Highest Fidelity, I.E greatest verisimilitude to the original performance.... or at least the most accurate reproduction of the recording of the original performance.

Yup, count me in :thumbsup:

As reported by many people in other older threads though, a lot of people choose their equipment for it's "niceness" and ability to make even dodgy recordings sound pretty good... not everyone wants accuracy and low colouration!

Indeed, and it's very easy to use valves in the wrong way, or as 'tone control effect', producing the results you describe. That's fine if you want that, but like you say, it's not hi-fi. One of the best examples of this is strapping a cheap, badly executed valve output stage onto a CD player, in order to make it sound 'nicer'! :doh: :rolleyes:

No, the whole reason I got into valve equipment in the first place was because, done well, it produces a sound that I consider faithfully reproduces the vibrancy and 'life' of real music. I don't do 'warm & cuddly'.

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

27-01-2016, 18:30

As Jez says there are a lot of valve amps that are coloured. So not all valve users are getting neutral playback. A good system should let you hear if the recording is digital or analogue and those valve amps make that hard to do. For me if it is a glassy DigitL recording that is what I want to hear. I don't want it softened out.

:exactly:

Oldpinkman

27-01-2016, 18:32

I doubt very much that the valve amps used on those old recordings were anything like as neutral as the ones you make, but still a fair point that needed making.

The thing is that when recording it matters less because every feature or aspect of what was used to make that recording becomes part of the recording and are therefore all completely valid. It is only on playback that we need maximum accuracy and neutrality if it is to be properly called 'High Fidelity'.

Some people are just real jumpy about their bottles

For the record I like the sound of my Fender "clean" although the "crunch" is good too. And I wasn't comparing guitar amps to hifi amps - I was noting that valves in a studio are used for their ability to produce not reproduce music.

As for valves being falsely accused of producing distortion - lets be clear. I love this recording, and enjoy playing it, but in terms of dynamic range and distortion its piss poor. Now I didn't blame valves for that, but equally don't start claiming some heavenly qualities for valves on the back of a recording which is plainly "vintage" with all the limitations that implies

I have enjoyed some lovely valve amps. The guys I know , that know, tell me that its not the valve but the amplifier design determines how it sounds. Its a question of making the electrons go where you want them to. Not what components you use to do it. Both valves and SS can produce good results. SS has some flexibility and abilities valves can't replicate. You couldnt get the performance of my AHB2 with a valve design in a box the same size. Actually you couldnt get the performance with valves in a box any size if we are going to talk about measured performance and noise levels. But that doesn't mean that a valve amplifier can't sound great.

Chill. :cool:

Marco

27-01-2016, 18:32

For me if it is a glassy DigitL recording that is what I want to hear. I don't want it softened out.

Indeed, me neither. But then neither do I want a "glassy" sonic effect imbued onto the sound of a recording, as a result of digital coloration. If that effect is meant to be there in the first place, then fine, otherwise it's no better than the "warm & cuddly" coloration, produced by badly designed valve amps.

Marco.

anthonyTD

27-01-2016, 18:34

:)
I reckon the quality of some old recordings may have more to do with the lack of processing and mucking about with the signal. The equipment largely didn't exist!
Also 2 track recorders would have been used most of the time which means no multi-tracking....
Very much agree.
Whilst valve gear can be superb and amongst the best there is (so can SS!) and can be neutral, IMHO many hi fi valve amp users do use models of rather less than the highest rank in order to deliberately "add niceness"... knowingly or not! A good case in point is comparison of my heavily modded Leak Stereo 20 to my new prototype class A SS amp. Although the SS amp completely whoops the Leak in every area, I would wager that maybe 60% + of people would say they prefer the Leak!
In its modded form it's reasonably neutral and comparable to modern low powered valve amps in this respect. However, comparison to the class A SS amp shows that it does add a surprising amount of "niceness" to the sound with its own colourations etc. Different sources, and of course recording studios etc, have a definite similarity through the Leak but everything sounds totally different depending on how and where recorded on the SS class A amp.

Now I'm not for one moment saying ALL valve amps sound this way! I'm sure Anthony's don't and I can say that my hybrid phono stage (all signal amplification valved) would confuse even the most "golden eared" as to whether it's valve or solid state by sound alone.... However I reckon
most of the more popular valve amps at reasonable price points are chosen for their coloured sound which many like. Certainly virtually all SET's and the likes of unmodded Quad II's are sound effect machines....
Absolutely agree.

Ideally in hi fi we are striving for the Highest Fidelity, I.E greatest verisimilitude to the original performance.... or at least the most accurate reproduction of the recording of the original performance. As reported by many people in other older threads though, a lot of people choose their equipment for it's "niceness" and ability to make even dodgy recordings sound pretty good... not everyone wants accuracy and low colouration! Whether or not equipment that doesn't deliver accuracy, neutrality and low colouration should still be referred to as "Hi-Fi" and talked about in reverent hushed tones is a matter I'll not comment on :D

struth

27-01-2016, 18:42

Warts or no warts eh ;) what a conundrum :D

anthonyTD

27-01-2016, 18:46

:rolleyes:
Some people are just real jumpy about their bottles

For the record I like the sound of my Fender "clean" although the "crunch" is good too. And I wasn't comparing guitar amps to hifi amps - I was noting that valves in a studio are used for their ability to produce not reproduce music.

As for valves being falsely accused of producing distortion - lets be clear. I love this recording, and enjoy playing it, but in terms of dynamic range and distortion its piss poor. Now I didn't blame valves for that, but equally don't start claiming some heavenly qualities for valves on the back of a recording which is plainly "vintage" with all the limitations that implies

I have enjoyed some lovely valve amps. The guys I know , that know, tell me that its not the valve but the amplifier design determines how it sounds. Its a question of making the electrons go where you want them to. Not what components you use to do it. Both valves and SS can produce good results. SS has some flexibility and abilities valves can't replicate.
You couldnt get the performance of my AHB2 with a valve design in a box the same size. Actually you couldnt get the performance with valves in a box any size if we are going to talk about measured performance and noise levels. But that doesn't mean that a valve amplifier can't sound great.

Well, unless you can prove that statement as absolute fact, i would advise anyone reading it to take it with a pinch of salt!
A.
Chill. :cool:

Arkless Electronics

27-01-2016, 18:46

You do have a habit of twisting peoples words to fit your argument Marco :D :)

Macca didn't say he likes glassy digital recordings! Just that if the recording happens to be a glassy digital one then accurate equipment will reproduce that digital glassiness and that it indeed should do....

And I didn't say there were no effects or processing equipment in existence in the "golden age" but that it "largely didn't exist"... not the best choice of words on my part but I meant that only a small range of such equipment existed and it was therefore used far less than today.

Other than that I agree with your post #53 :)

Marco

27-01-2016, 18:51

Some people are just real jumpy about their bottles

Well, you can sometimes come across as rather dogmatic, and portray your experiences as 'fact'! ;)

For the record I like the sound of my Fender "clean" although the "crunch" is good too. And I wasn't comparing guitar amps to hifi amps - I was noting that valves in a studio are used for their ability to produce not reproduce music.

Indeed, and the best ones can do that job just as well as anything solid-state, whether in music production or reproduction mode.

The popular misconception, amongst the uninitiated, or those with a commercial or personal agenda (and I'm not saying you're one) is that the type of distortion that valves produce, when overdriven in guitar amps, for example, to create a particular 'effect', is replicated to some degree in the performance of valve hi-fi amplifiers, when reproducing recorded music.

That is quite simply not the case, unless the valve amps in question have been rather badly designed.

As for valves being falsely accused of producing distortion - lets be clear. I love this recording, and enjoy playing it, but in terms of dynamic range and distortion its piss poor.

Now that's interesting, because that tells me one of three things:

1) The pressing/production quality of this particular release of 'Kind of Blue' is not as good as some comments here suggest, certainly anything like the copy I have.

2) Your turntable and/or system isn't revealing the album at its best.

3) Your idea and mine of what sounds good or bad is poles apart.

...because, the copy of 'Kind of Blue' I have sounds superb in almost every way, and indeed is considered by many as a 'reference recording' of its type. Therefore, my guess is 1), with perhaps a smidgen of 3).

The guys I know , that know, tell me that its not the valve but the amplifier design determines how it sounds. Its a question of making the electrons go where you want them to. Not what components you use to do it. Both valves and SS can produce good results.

Indeed. I fully agree.

SS has some flexibility and abilities valves can't replicate. You couldnt get the performance of my AHB2 with a valve design in a box the same size. Actually you couldnt get the performance with valves in a box any size if we are going to talk about measured performance and noise levels. But that doesn't mean that a valve amplifier can't sound great.

With respect, Richard, I feel that you often place too much importance on "measured performance", when you're not even an audio engineer. I would leave people such as Jez and Anthony to worry about stuff like that.

As an end user/music lover, all you should be concerned with is using your ears, leaving any preconception baggage behind on 'valves vs SS', and not allowing your pal Owen to 'brainwash' you with so many so-called 'facts and figures', some of which are rather obviously biased to appease your particular sensibilities! ;)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

27-01-2016, 19:07

To extrapolate from what Anthony last said I'll add that most audiophiles seem to be oblivious to the fact that you CAN get valve gear with superb measured performance! 0.001% THD is possible from valve gear.... just not usually power amps due to the curse of output transformers and the way they limit negative feedback and introduce their own distortion. I have built hybrid valve power amps before in which all but the actual output stage was valved and measured 0,005% THD.... and I could beat that. Valved line stages and phono stages are easily designed to have less than 0.005% THD. The issue is audiophiles believing that good specs = bad sound and a reverse snobbery developing where it's "my valve amp has 3% THD and sounds great, that gear designed to measure well won't match it".. BOLLOCKS! 3% THD is well audible and though some may like the sound of it it ain't hi fi! Many amps that measure better than say 0.01% THD will nowadays be quoted merely as ">0.5% THD" to avoid the ire of misguided audiophiles who think that if it truly measures well it must be deficient in some subjective way :doh: Did I ever mention that one of the most frustrating aspects of what I do is having to deal with the misguided received wisdom of the average audiophile.... Ooops shut up Jez :mental:

The best most competently designed gear, SS or valve, will both measure and sound good!

I will agree that blind chasing of better and better specs without a thought for the side effects of this and without listening to the results can give bad sound...

Marco

27-01-2016, 19:09

You do have a habit of twisting peoples words to fit your argument Marco :D :)

Not at all. I was agreeing with the basic premise of his post, and merely adding a 'rider'.

Macca didn't say he likes glassy digital recordings! Just that if the recording happens to be a glassy digital one then accurate equipment will reproduce that digital glassiness and that it indeed should do....

I completely agree with what you're saying, but the bit in bold was not what I meant.

We need to understand that digital equipment is NOT devoid of its own forms of coloration, and nor is it 'perfect'. There seems to be a perception/misconception amongst some that it is, and that vinyl and/or valves are the only things guilty of being coloured, which simply isn't the case.

I was providing some balance in that respect. Solid-state equipment also exhibits its own forms of coloration, due to the nature of how it works.

The point I'm making is that "glassy" is every bit as much a form of undesired coloration as "warm & cuddly", but for some reason, the latter (usually attributed to vinyl) is often considered as worse than the former - or even that the former (and words like it) somehow convey 'accuracy', simply because their connotation, in some people's minds, represents a 'warts and all' sound.

I'm afraid that doesn't mean to say it's right, or that said 'glassiness' should exist on the recording concerned.

And I didn't say there were no effects or processing equipment in existence in the "golden age" but that it "largely didn't exist"... not the best choice of words on my part but I meant that only a small range of such equipment existed and it was therefore used far less than today.

Ok, but I'm still not sure I agree, based on my research into that area. However, since neither of us were around at the time to know for sure either way, neither of us can prove that we're right :)

Marco.

Marco

27-01-2016, 19:12

The best most competently designed gear, SS or valve, will both measure and sound good!

Hear, hear! :clap:

I will agree that blind chasing of better and better specs without a thought for the side effects of this and without listening to the results can give bad sound...

Indeed, and I'm glad to hear that. It's precisely those guilty of that practice who've held back, and who continue to hold back, REAL progress in audio!!

Marco.

anthonyTD

27-01-2016, 19:32

Exactly, And well put! :)
I think for me, the most frustrating thing is reading some folks ramblings, blindly blaming sonic performance, and test figures on one device over the other, instead of actualy having the ability to look into the way said devices are being used, and in what context etc, As you quite rightly said Jez, in an earlier post, excelent results can be had with both topologies, when done correctly, and taking into account the strengths and weaknesses of each device, whether it be Valve, Transistor, Mosfet, etc, etc. There arent many things that i let wind me up these days, but when i read some of the stuff certain individuals here come out with from time to time, well...:steam:
To extrapolate from what Anthony last said I'll add that most audiophiles seem to be oblivious to the fact that you CAN get valve gear with superb measured performance! 0.001% THD is possible from valve gear.... just not usually power amps due to the curse of output transformers and the way they limit negative feedback and introduce their own distortion. I have built hybrid valve power amps before in which all but the actual output stage was valved and measured 0,005% THD.... and I could beat that. Valved line stages and phono stages are easily designed to have less than 0.005% THD. The issue is audiophiles believing that good specs = bad sound and a reverse snobbery developing where it's "my valve amp has 3% THD and sounds great, that gear designed to measure well won't match it".. BOLLOCKS! 3% THD is well audible and though some may like the sound of it it ain't hi fi! Many amps that measure better than say 0.01% THD will nowadays be quoted merely as ">0.5% THD" to avoid the ire of misguided audiophiles who think that if it truly measures well it must be deficient in some subjective way :doh: Did I ever mention that one of the most frustrating aspects of what I do is having to deal with the misguided received wisdom of the average audiophile.... Ooops shut up Jez :mental:

The best most competently designed gear, SS or valve, will both measure and sound good!

I will agree that blind chasing of better and better specs without a thought for the side effects of this and without listening to the results can give bad sound...

mikmas

27-01-2016, 19:43

As for the description you've quoted, it's simply a subjective one, based on the interpretation of whoever it was who made it.
Marco.

I'm sure it is - the quote was from the article you linked to in praise of the Neumann mic ...

Also absolutely no doubt that Lennon et al (and George Martin) were entirely subjective in the sound they wanted to create - which had little to do with 'naturalism' or producing something 'lifelike' but making some damn good toons that sounded like pure magic once they were done :)
If you have any doubt listen to John Lennon's solo Rock 'n Roll album for an example of the vocals he really wanted to emulate - easy to hear why he would prefer the 'warm tones' of the Neumann mic and proper Sun style slap-back echo.

As to Sinatra and the other crooners of his era - his songs and the production were about wooing women with honey drippin' small talk whispered close to their ear - what better than the cosy intimacy of a Neumann ;)

I grew up in the '50s when tubes were everywhere - if we ran out of coal we could always warm our hands over the radio in the corner while listening to the reassuring cuddliness oozing out of the tubes ... Solid State was like a fresh raw blast of reality shaking the shit out of that dusty old cabinet ...

anthonyTD

27-01-2016, 19:51

The last sentence made me chuckle,:D and something i tend to agree with, having had much experience of, with old valve radios of that era, and earlier.:)
I'm sure it is - the quote was from the article you linked to in praise of the Neumann mic ...

Also absolutely no doubt that Lennon et al (and George Martin) were entirely subjective in the sound they wanted to create - which had little to do with 'naturalism' or producing something 'lifelike' but making some damn good toons that sounded like pure magic once they were done :)
If you have any doubt listen to John Lennon's solo Rock 'n Roll album for an example of the vocals he really wanted to emulate - easy to hear why he would prefer the 'warm tones' of the Neumann mic and proper Sun style slap-back echo.

As to Sinatra and the other crooners of his era - his songs and the production were about wooing women with honey drippin' small talk whispered close to their ear - what better than the cosy intimacy of a Neumann ;)

I grew up in the '50s when tubes were everywhere - if we ran out of coal we could always warm our hands over the radio in the corner while listening to the reassuring cuddliness oozing out of the tubes ... Solid State was like a fresh raw blast of reality shaking the shit out of that dusty old cabinet ...

struth

27-01-2016, 20:03

Marco

27-01-2016, 20:17

Also absolutely no doubt that Lennon et al (and George Martin) were entirely subjective in the sound they wanted to create - which had little to do with 'naturalism' or producing something 'lifelike' but making some damn good toons that sounded like pure magic once they were done :)

Indeed, but the engineers/decision makers of the day, in terms of recording production at Abbey Road, would've certainly chosen their favourite mics and mixing desks, first and foremost, for reasons of fidelity! ;)

If you have any doubt listen to John Lennon's solo Rock 'n Roll album for an example of the vocals he really wanted to emulate - easy to hear why he would prefer the 'warm tones' of the Neumann mic and proper Sun style slap-back echo.

Sure, but those "warm tones" don't necessarily equate to a form of euphony.

My view is that the best Neumann microphones, from the era, faithfully captured the natural richness in his voice, especially in terms of texture and timbre, without diluting/thinning it out, and inducing sterility, in the way of some examples of the digital equipment (and in general inferior mics) used in studios today. However, I essentially agree with where you're coming from.

As to Sinatra and the other crooners of his era - his songs and the production were about wooing women with honey drippin' small talk whispered close to their ear - what better than the cosy intimacy of a Neumann

Lol - very good! Of course, as a heterosexual red-blooded male and music lover, such "cosy intimacy", imparted on performances by said crooners, has no effect. I simply judge the sound of what I hear from my position as an 'audiophile'.

I grew up in the '50s when tubes were everywhere - if we ran out of coal we could always warm our hands over the radio in the corner while listening to the reassuring cuddliness oozing out of the tubes ... Solid State was like a fresh raw blast of reality shaking the shit out of that dusty old cabinet ...

Haha... All before my time, I'm afraid, old chap - sounds good, though! :)

However, like Anthony, and as someone who collects old valve radios (and so knows all too well what they sound like), that euphonic, rather rose-tinted tone they have, isn't in any way representative of the sound produced by a modern, high-quality, properly designed valve amplifier.

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

27-01-2016, 20:24

Ive had both and liked both. Think its horses for courses, depending on setup, and your desires (read sometimes your prejudices ) as to what you think of it audibly. I thought my valve stuff the sonic equal of solid state, and although I am now all SS, it should not be taken wrongly; much of it was dictated by how I wanted the system to be placed etc.
Valves done right are imo the equal of SS (done right) any day.:)

Yup.

I'll add that when really done right one should not be able to tell if it's valve or solid state without taking the lid off and looking...

The biggest difference is that when done wrong valves tend towards overly sickly sweet, warm, cloying etc.. but pleasantly "mostly harmless" (as the good guide book says), whereas solid state tends to sound gritty, "grey" and in yer face... Notice the use of the word tends... I have heard examples of each that do the opposite! (rarely).

Marco

27-01-2016, 20:35

I fully agree. The problem is that those who've been unfortunate only to have heard bad examples of either, automatically presume that's what either will always sound like...

This is particularly true in the case of valves, which more often than not are tarred with the 'warm & cuddly'/noisy & distorted brush, by the uninitiated (or those who are brainwashed by "measured performance") :rolleyes:

As we know, and have already agreed, measurements only tell *part* of the story. The other (more important) part involves using your ears!

Marco.

surv1v0r

27-01-2016, 21:25

struth

27-01-2016, 21:35

looked on wh smith web site just out of interest and didnt see it. looks like they are keen for folk to take as you say a sub that is difficult and expensive to cancel. One of the reasons I like Amazon is if you want to cancel anything you do it on website and not on phone for hrs.
Ive got a copy of that vinyl anyways;)

Mr Kipling

27-01-2016, 21:39

struth

27-01-2016, 21:54

Asda still has issue 1. Mine does anyway. But then they still have jars of goose fat from christmas. Wasn't a seller for them. The next issue John Coltrane's "Blue Train" is £9.99. I think issue 3 will be the normal price of £14.99.

If interested I could get it and post to you. Would mean the additional cost of postage.

:rfl: bloody goose fat...... not an admirer of it in my roasties, so no wonder it wont sell.... dont use asda now but good call, as they do sell mags :eyebrows:

Ali Tait

27-01-2016, 21:59

Costs nowt to visit your bank's website and cancel the standing order..

struth

27-01-2016, 22:05

Costs nowt to visit your bank's website and cancel the standing order..

yes but if they keep sending then you owe them and the debt collectors get involved... I got bit once years ago(well the wife did) and never again.

Marco

27-01-2016, 22:18

:rfl: bloody goose fat...... not an admirer of it in my roasties, so no wonder it wont sell....

Yesh, but I believe you're still rather fond of your 'duck butter' :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

struth

27-01-2016, 22:20

Yesh, but I believe you're still rather fond of your 'duck butter' :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

All it's good for mate ... does cause less friction though :D

...and improves the smell no end :rfl:

Marco

27-01-2016, 22:29

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 06:16

Hehehehe....

Back on topic (well, a wee bit anyway), here's a link to an interesting article about how recordings were done in the days when top-notch sound quality/realism (based on the discerning ears and experience of the sound engineers concerned) was paramount. Observe the use of Neumann microphones throughout: http://www.scottymoore.net/studio_b.html

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/905/r18e9V.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p5r18e9Vj)

Oh, look... Is that a rather nice RCA-branded, Tannoy DC-equipped speaker I spy on the left, which looks somewhat like a Lancaster? ;)

Marco.

Marco, you are either being slightly disingenuous, or naughty, or pure blind valve fixated. ;)
Modern recording may choose valve mikes for the wonderful quality of valves. In the days of your pictures and "A Kind of Blue" , there were no transistor mikes.
The big deal with a valve mike was that it was a condenser design as opposed to a dynamic or ribbon. Condensers need to be powered. Back then valves were the only option for powering them.
A modern studio will almost exclusively use condensers for most recording, although a few famous rock stars prefer the "stage" sound of dynamics like the Shure sm58, and the Shure SM57 is sometimes used to mike guitar amps, but a condenser mike is the mainstay of modern recording.
In 1959 the only condenser mikes were valve ones, like the only wireless in the family living room was a valve one
:cool:

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 07:25

Are these "Jazz on Vinyl" albums actually available at any local Newsagent and Supermarket any longer?

I certainly haven't seen them. Are they all sold out or is this just a "tempter" to encourage you to sign up to the mail order offer from which it will be nigh on impossible to unsubscribe?

One available in my village store this morning. You can order one mail order as a one-off. The first and 2nd issues are discounted prices to get you interested. The rest of them are £15.99 which I think is "full priced". THey are worth that in my view, but its no bargain - just a convenient source of excellent material from an era when I was but a twinkle in my parents eye (I think they were holding hands and "spooning" when "Kind of Blue" was being made)

There is no commitment, apart from inertia. You can buy mail order an issue at a time, or subscribe and cancel at any time. If you subscribe and don't cancel you get "gifts" (which are rubbish) with later issues. If you buy the issues one at a time, you don't get the subscription gifts

:cool:

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 07:35

Now that's interesting, because that tells me one of three things:

1) The pressing/production quality of this particular release of 'Kind of Blue' is not as good as some comments here suggest, certainly anything like the copy I have.

Its an excellent 5 star pressing

2) Your turntable and/or system isn't revealing the album at its best.

:rfl::rfl::rfl::rfl::lolsign:

3) Your idea and mine of what sounds good or bad is poles apart.

...because, the copy of 'Kind of Blue' I have sounds superb in almost every way, and indeed is considered by many as a 'reference recording' of its type. Therefore, my guess is 1), with perhaps a smidgen of 3).

Marco.

The album is very good. The realism is very good. There are a couple of "strains" where a trumpet or sax overloads. It has a pretty chilled, soft undemanding dynamic. "Compressed" was perhaps the wrong word, because the performance fits into compressed. There is nothing like, for example "Waterboy" on Rhiannon Giddens LP "Tomorrow is my turn", to strain the dynamics. That LP is a modern, well recorded (although not perfectly) similar acoustic ensemble - but much more demanding of the recording equipment

;)

:cool:

Stratmangler

28-01-2016, 07:56

It has a pretty chilled, soft undemanding dynamic

If Kind Of Blue sounds like that there's something seriously wrong with your playback system.

The three soloists were black men in late 1950s America.
Obvious and open racism was something they encountered on a daily basis, and had done as far back as they could remember.
The three of them played with some serious attitude, as it was the only means had where they could vent their anger.
The three were also big hitters in the Jazz world, and they spurred each other on to higher heights.
It wasn't meant to sound nice.
It was self expression, pure and simple, and it comes across if your system isn't choking the life out of the music.

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 08:25

Macca

28-01-2016, 08:39

The album is very good. The realism is very good. There are a couple of "strains" where a trumpet or sax overloads. It has a pretty chilled, soft undemanding dynamic. l:

IIRC there are quite few examples of overload on it, I certainly wouldn't hold it up as a reference standard of recording from that point of view. Yes it does have a magical quality to it (even on the CD) but the reason it is a popular record is the quality of the performance.

If you could go back in time to the studio, with a load of modern equipment, and record the same sessions with that it would be a huge improvement in recording quality, but it wouldn't be the Kind Of Blue that we know and love, either.

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 08:41

IIRC there are quite few examples of overload on it, I certainly wouldn't hold it up as a reference standard of recording from that point of view. Yes it does have a magical quality to it (even on the CD) but the reason it is a popular record is the quality of the performance.

If you could go back in time to the studio, with a load of modern equipment, and record the same sessions with that it would be a huge improvement in recording quality, but it wouldn't be the Kind Of Blue that we know and love, either.

Thanks. Glad someone gets the point. I have reflected on what I am failing to get across - I'll put it in a separate post :)

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 08:56

I was reflecting on my slammed garage door and feather on a snare drum. I wonder if there is a secret answer there about recordings and "lifelike".

And that answer lies around the fact that we know there is a potential dynamic range of 90 odd db between quietest detectable noise and pain threshold. As mentioned previously I wore ear protectors when running the sounddesk for a local band. Sound pressures were definitely up at the pain threshold levels. I don't suppose anyone did hear, or could hear a pin drop, even in an instant silence

The music was quite compressed. Not in the way production spoils recordings by squashing the dynamic range. But by only needing a (relatively) small dynamic range somewhere between really loud and only fairly sort of quiet.

I recently dug out my original ticket for the first Pink Floyd Wall concert at Earls Court for Sue's music class. Block 25, Row P, seat 154 £8.50 inc VAT(recently introduced). As noted - that was very loud. There were some "quiet bits" - opening guitar to "Comfortably Numb" - but not soft swirl of a brush on a snare drum quiet. Maybe again , that concert was "compressed" from fairly (not that) quiet to bloody loud

Maybe - normally, naturally, our hearing "zones" our dynamic range. A bit like we can adjust to different light levels, but couldn't make out something in a coal cellar AND simultaneosly spot a surfer on a reflective sea in midday mediteranean sun. We never try to do both at the same time.

Maybe the problem with "compressed production" is trying to force the whole of our theoretical dynamic range into the expected limitations of the equipment, when a live performance never demands that much actual dynamic range from us.

Or maybe not. The point I was making about "Kind of Blue" wasnt that it was "suppressed". Just that it didnt try for that bigger range. Nobody slammed a garage door

Musically, the Rhiannon Giddons track I referred to does slam a garage door. And that demands more of the recording and playback equipment than "Kind of Blue" does. But not so much that it ends up sounding compressed, on what after all is still an analogue LP even if the recording equipment was digital.

Time for a tax return :cool:

take5

28-01-2016, 09:29

If Kind Of Blue sounds like that there's something seriously wrong with your playback system.

The three soloists were black men in late 1950s America.
Obvious and open racism was something they encountered on a daily basis, and had done as far back as they could remember.
The three of them played with some serious attitude, as it was the only means had where they could vent their anger.
The three were also big hitters in the Jazz world, and they spurred each other on to higher heights.
It wasn't meant to sound nice.
It was self expression, pure and simple, and it comes across if your system isn't choking the life out of the music.

Chris, I dont view Kind of Blue like that at all.

I dont hear any anger in this Lp. The vibe Davis wanted was chilled and the musical material was composed with that in mind. I dont hear anger in any of the soloists. Just very thoughtful, chilled , laid back playing from all. No anger either from bass and drums.

Coltrane plays the busiest of them all, but Im pretty sure that anger was not the emotion that he was feeling. Adderley was his usual bluesy, joyful, full of life self. Davis and Evans were so laid back they were almost lying on their backs. For me, Davis and Evans captured the vibe best, and "made" this LP. Incredible stuff. Even wynton kelly "got it" on freddie Freeloader, with his bluesy playing. No anger there.

You say "it wasnt meant to sound nice". I disagree. "Nice" may not have been the exact word used, but chilled, laid back, reflective or any such words may well have been. They were all sensitive musicians. they responded to the vibe around them. It was self expression, but within the framework of the "vibe".

I feel that it was the "vibe", and the ability of these musicians to respond to and capture that vibe, that made this LP stand out so much from the stuff that came before, and made it the success that it was.

For me, the vibe was captured and comes across on ANY system, from the speakers sitting next to a computer all the way to the "best" Hi Fi system known to man.

Marco

28-01-2016, 10:01

If you could go back in time to the studio, with a load of modern equipment, and record the same sessions with that it would be a huge improvement in recording quality,

<COUGH> Why would you say something like that - based on what fundamental knowledge or experience, exactly, of the respective equipment concerned?

You really need to rid yourself of the notion that, in terms of out-and-out sound quality, much (if any) real progress has been made in that area, since the best of what was around in the late 50s (where quality peaked, both in terms of equipment used and the talents of the sound engineers who were around then).

Otherwise, why do many (probably 100s of albums I have on vinyl, from the 1950s-early 60s), generally sound considerably superior to the best of what I can buy today, produced using modern (mainly digital) equipment?

Marco.

take5

28-01-2016, 10:08

<COUGH> Why would you say something like that - based on what fundamental knowledge, exactly, of the respective equipment concerned?

You really need to rid yourself of the notion that, in terms of out-and-out sound quality, much (if any) real progress has been made in that area since the best of what was around in the late 50s, otherwise why do many (probably 100s of albums I have on vinyl) sound considerably better than does the best of what I can buy today, produced using modern (mainly digital) equipment?

Marco.

very interesting point.

I recently picked up a double Lp by Ben Webster, on Verve label. called "Ballads" from early/mid 1950s.

Probably the best sounding representation of a tenor sax that I have heard. Just incredible.

Spectral Morn

28-01-2016, 10:09

struth

28-01-2016, 10:10

Certainly think the cutting of discs has gone downhill. The old vinyl ive got is superb sounding and much tougher than it is today.. Look at a modern record the wrong way and it seems to scratch

Marco

28-01-2016, 10:19

Marco, you are either being slightly disingenuous, or naughty, or pure blind valve fixated. ;)
Modern recording may choose valve mikes for the wonderful quality of valves. In the days of your pictures and "A Kind of Blue" , there were no transistor mikes.
The big deal with a valve mike was that it was a condenser design as opposed to a dynamic or ribbon. Condensers need to be powered. Back then valves were the only option for powering them.
A modern studio will almost exclusively use condensers for most recording, although a few famous rock stars prefer the "stage" sound of dynamics like the Shure sm58, and the Shure SM57 is sometimes used to mike guitar amps, but a condenser mike is the mainstay of modern recording.
In 1959 the only condenser mikes were valve ones, like the only wireless in the family living room was a valve one
:cool:

Not sure exactly what you're getting at there, Richard.

I agree, but am simply saying that, IMO, and indeed that of many musicians and recording engineers, the best valve microphones ever made (such as the 'Telly' U47 favoured by Sinatra, and indeed vintage Neumann microphones in general), impart a lifelike quality and realism, especially to vocals, like no others made since, which is why they are so sought after by discerning recording engineers.

The microphones, used by the RCA Victor studios, shown in the link I posted, were all Neumanns - and the recordings produced in the 1950s by those studios were STUNNING. Do you get the relevance now? ;)

And I'm certainly not "pure valve fixated". It's simply that, to my ears, when they're at their best, they possess certain sonic (and musical) abilities lacking in other forms of technology, thus my opinion is based simply on the sound I hear, whether it's produced by valves or solid-state equipment.

If I considered SS better, in that respect, I would extoll its virtues in the same way, so I'm not 'fixated with valves'. It's merely what I consider, when done WELL, sounds best (read as most realistic, to my ears). Essentially, I like valves because of how they sound, not just because they're valves... :)

Marco.

Marco

28-01-2016, 10:27

very interesting point.

I recently picked up a double Lp by Ben Webster, on Verve label. called "Ballads" from early/mid 1950s.

Probably the best sounding representation of a tenor sax that I have heard. Just incredible.

Indeed, Brian - and I have many different examples of such in my collection. If you haven't already, check out some of the late 50s Blue Notes! The sheer clarity and dynamic attack on offer with, for example, sax and trumpet, will blow your mind...!! :trust:

Marco.

Marco

28-01-2016, 11:19

Certainly think the cutting of discs has gone downhill. The old vinyl ive got is superb sounding and much tougher than it is today.. Look at a modern record the wrong way and it seems to scratch

That's because the materials and production techniques employed now, for making vinyl, are inferior to what was used, back in the day, when vinyl was the main music format, and so manufacturing plants today simply aren't 'tooled up' for the same levels/standards of mass production, in order to produce high-quality vinyl, consistently.

Plus, since the majority of the time (out with of expensive audiophile pressings), vinyl used now is recycled (and not 'virgin', or 'heavyweight', as it automatically was once, certainly in the 50s and throughout most of the 60s), which can cause all manner of issues, including the 'cloudy residue' imparted onto the surface of records, as discussed elsewhere recently, together with the scratching you mention.

Furthermore, I don't believe that a lot of the vinyl records produced now are being handled and/or stored properly in the right conditions, after the production process.

That probably explains why even brand new records can contain high levels of 'groove noise', which even with repeated cleaning on an RCM, doesn't shift, simply because dust/dirt, collected from the production process, has become so deeply impregnated into the vinyl itself, due to said lack of care in handling/storage at the production plant.

As ever in many aspects of life today, certain standards aren't what they used to be! ;)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

28-01-2016, 12:24

IIRC there are quite few examples of overload on it, I certainly wouldn't hold it up as a reference standard of recording from that point of view. Yes it does have a magical quality to it (even on the CD) but the reason it is a popular record is the quality of the performance.

If you could go back in time to the studio, with a load of modern equipment, and record the same sessions with that it would be a huge improvement in recording quality, but it wouldn't be the Kind Of Blue that we know and love, either.

Spot on! Yes it could be recorded much better with modern technology.

Marco

28-01-2016, 12:44

WHOA, hold on.... That's WAY too much of an absolutist statement, Jez! :nono:

Explain then why, in general, the best recordings I have on vinyl, from the 1950s/early 60s, sound notably better than the best ones I've got, produced now?

And I'm certainly not the only one holding that view, and with a good enough turntable and big enough (and musically diverse) record collection, in order to highlight the respective differences, and thus make valid comparisons.

Marco.

struth

28-01-2016, 12:49

Ive got a few top notch new 180s tbf but quite a few are a bit meh in comparison to my older stuff. Even the old blues recordi!gs that are a bit scratchy due to the initial recording have to me better dynamics

Macca

28-01-2016, 13:01

WHOA, hold on.... That's WAY too much of an absolutist statement, Jez!

Explain then why, in general, the best recordings I have on vinyl, from the 1950s/early 60s, sound notably better than the best ones I've got, produced now? And I'm certainly not the only one holding that view, and with a good enough turntable and big enough (and musically diverse) record collection, in order to make valid comparisons.

Marco.

You would not have the mic overload, you'd have a wider frequency response, higher dynamic range and lower noise floor.

So technically it would be a better recording. Would that translate into it being a subjectively 'better' recording? Not necessarily.

Marco

28-01-2016, 13:08

Yes, but we all know that what's 'technically better' doesn't always translate into what is considered as 'better' (read as more lifelike/realistic/enjoyable) to the human ear, otherwise you (or I - and indeed many others) wouldn't prefer big old Tannoys and JBLs to most modern speakers, which may technically measure better, but can sound musically woeful! ;)

The fact is, there's a lot more to making a sax sound like a sax than what can be measured by our current test equipment, that is if you believe that measurements only tell PART of the story, rather than all of it.... How musically convincing equipment or recordings *sound*, therefore, is ultimately what matters most - or should matter most to a genuine music lover.

I had put you in former camp, above, in terms of measurements (see emboldened text). Was I right to do so?

Oh, and it should also be noted that my copy of 'Kind of Blue', on vinyl, sounds rather different from what Pinky has described!

Marco.

Macca

28-01-2016, 13:26

Yes, but we all know that what's 'technically better' doesn't always translate into what is considered as 'better' (read as more lifelike/realistic) to the human ear

I agree completely which is why I drew the distinction.

But I'm of the opinion that it is the way in which the recording is made and produced that preserves or destroys that sense of lifelike/realistic, and not the equipment that is used.

If you ask people to list their favourite recordings from the sole criteria of 'sounding real' you will get a list of recordings from all eras. The common factor will be that they were recorded completely or almost completely as live takes in an acoustic, and there will be minimal production. I doubt that anyone would pick a typical 'studio' recording with 20 odd tracks in use at any one time, mostly recorded D.I. and with reverb and gating and other effects added all over the place.

A good modern example is The Cowboy Junkies 'The Trinity Sessions' - total snoozefest musically but audiophiles love that recording because it sounds so lifelike. As I recall it was made in a church using a single ambisound mic and a portable DAT recorder. The musicians just sat around the mic and played the tunes.

anthonyTD

28-01-2016, 13:32

I think we are going round in circles here.
The equipment in those early days, was IMHO well capable of recording all that was going on in the studio, on that i have no doubt, ie the noise floor, and dynamic range capabilities, And I have had the opportunity to examine and repair some of this stuff over the years, including original Microphone amplifiers used at the BBC studios etc. One of the points Jez hit on earlier on in this thread is something i certainly think goes some way in explaining why many of those recordings, have so much life, and realism, and that is; the processing these recordings went through, or should i say not, they weren't multi-tracked, the signal didn't go through dozens of op amps in mixing desks, and the signal wasn't compressed and limited to death, what you then ended up with is, a recording that has most of its original integrity ie; dynamics, immediacy and "life" left intact!
Yes, as analogue studios progressed, i would agree that it was indeed possible to improve on the recording quality of those early days,however, by that time, recording techniques had changed so much so, that it had become quite difficult to be able to record artists, and bands in the same setting, and single takes as it was in those early days.
A...

surv1v0r

28-01-2016, 13:33

Marco

28-01-2016, 13:36

I completely get where you're coming from, Martin, and we're largely in agreement, apart from here:

But I'm of the opinion that it is the way in which the recording is made and produced that preserves or destroys that sense of lifelike/realistic, and not the equipment that is used.

I agree with the first part of that sentence, but not the last bit. However, it's not really something worth arguing about, as neither of us can irrefutably prove our respective positions.

Let's just say that I'm totally convinced that a MAJOR part of what makes, for example, Sinatra albums sound so good (i.e. lifelike/'real'), and 1950s recordings on Capitol in general, together with the sheer immediacy/dynamic impact of the sound on some early classical and jazz albums, is precisely because of the judicious (the key word here) use of certain very high-quality, valve-based equipment, which had the ability to capture that realism/immediacy, like no other equipment produced since, due to its unique sonic and electrical attributes/characteristics.

And that's why (amongst other reasons) the best of the earlier recordings I have on vinyl, more often than not, sound superior to the stuff that's for sale now, certain 'uber-audiophile pressings' aside. I will hopefully be able to demonstrate that to you next time when you visit :)

Marco.

Marco

28-01-2016, 13:38

One of the points Jez hit on earlier on in this thread is something i certainly think goes some way in explaining why many of those recordings, have so much life, and realism, and that is; the processing these recordings went through, or should i say not, they weren't multi-tracked, the signal didn't go through dozens of op amps in mixing desks, and the signal wasn't compressed and limited to death, what you then ended up with is, a recording that has most of its original dynamics, immediacy and "life" left intact!

Yes, I'm also in full agreement there. The K.I.S.S principle applies just as much in the recording domain, as it does in the playback one! ;)

Sadly, these days, recordings tend to get f*cked about with WAY too much... :doh:

Marco.

take5

28-01-2016, 13:42

Indeed, Brian - and I have many different examples of such in my collection. If you haven't already, check out some of the late 50s Blue Notes! The sheer clarity and dynamic attack on offer with, for example, sax and trumpet, will blow your mind...!! :trust:

Marco.

Trust you ????????

Possibly.....

If you can track one down, this is what you need.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BALLADS-BY-BEN-WEBSTER-VERVE-2LP-2683-049-EX-/191722540201?hash=item2ca38dcca9%3Ag%3AwUQAAOSwxYx Uz-sZ&nma=true&si=l8gy92Ghg7XM6FBE0fH8uF64KPU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

TRUST ME.

Now, after establishing the trust thing, what about that 2nd hand car ( one lady owner, genuine 575 miles on clock) that you Pm 'd me about. Any room for a haggle. Wife and 17 kids to support, Guv. you know how it is. Help a chap out.

Marco

28-01-2016, 13:48

:lolsign:

Cheers. I'll defo keep an eye out for the Ben Webster :)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

28-01-2016, 13:48

take5

28-01-2016, 14:00

The quality of these old recordings probably has more to do with good mic technique and with a great deal of care being taken with the recording technique as they couldn't "correct it in the mix" back then

I think there is probably a lot of truth in that.

there are stories of Rudy van Gelder, ( who did the recordings for Blue Note ) going to extreme levels to keep his methods/equipment secret.

So, NO-ONE allowed to touch his microphones. Sticky tape over the makes/models of his kit. No photos to be taken in the studios. etc etc.

Ah, they dont make em like they used to.

Marco

28-01-2016, 14:09

I'm afraid your claims of measurements not mattering are simply wrong! Yes an amp can measure great and sound crap.... but if it measures crap it will ALWAYS sound crap! (or at least totally inaccurate. Some like a bizarrely coloured and unrealistic sound so to them it may sound good.... even though it is crap)
Personally I hugely prefer modern speakers to old Tannoys and JBL's and prefer an OC-9 to a DL103... by a mile in both cases!! The OC-9 goes a tad too far the opposite way to the DL103 but to me is a much better cart.

Well, to prevent a rather pointless circular argument, I think on that matter we'll have to just strongly 'agree to disagree'.

You're also misconstruing, and thus taking out of context, the point I was making about measurements, in reference to producing recordings of music, and in that respect what makes a recording of a sax sound as close as possible to a REAL sax, compared with measurements taken/needed when designing playback equipment.

Anyway, some day, when you're free, you'd be welcome to pop down to my place and stay overnight, where you'll not only be very well fed and watered, but also exposed to where I'm coming from, in terms of vintage Tannoys and DL-103s, etc - and then you'll be able to form your own conclusions from that ;)

Even when using valves there has been loads of technical progress since the days of these records being recorded. Compare a Quad II to your Copper Amp and see what I mean...

Yes, undoubtedly, but you're missing the point I was making. We'll discuss it properly over a few beers at the next NEBO :cool:

The quality of these old recordings probably has more to do with good mic technique and with a great deal of care being taken with the recording technique as they couldn't "correct it in the mix" back then and wouldn't have wanted to call The Nelson Riddle Orchestra back in for another take! Recordings also would not of course have been messed with to make them sound good on MP3 players or ghetto blasters in those days!

Yup, on that we are in full agreement :thumbsup:

Marco.

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 14:32

Oh, and it should also be noted that my copy of 'Kind of Blue', on vinyl, sounds rather different from what Pinky has described!

Marco.

I doubt they are different - much. This is a bloody good pressing and I wouldn't want valve mania to allow anyone to drift too far away from the OP and start to think that this is anything other than a great vinyl collecting opportunity. The recording is VERY good. It is very lifelike - I think my earlier post said that. It ain't perfect, and as Macca pointed out that is inherent to some technical gaffs on the original recording.

My comment about dynamic range was a reflection that this music is played with life vibrancy and excitement, in a dynamic range which is lifelike, but not pushing the boundaries of technology hard

I get the feeling the track I mentioned may not be familiar - this is a lot more demanding of recording equipment than "A Kind of Blue" was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyWa6v-ifRY&list=RDXyWa6v-ifRY#t=0

:)

Edit - and sounds really pants on my office PC system (mission speakers, Nad 3020 amp). The LP on the proper system is spot on - but its demanding

Oldpinkman

28-01-2016, 14:36

I agree completely which is why I drew the distinction.
The common factor will be that they were recorded completely or almost completely as live takes in an acoustic, and there will be minimal production. I doubt that anyone would pick a typical 'studio' recording with 20 odd tracks in use at any one time, mostly recorded D.I. and with reverb and gating and other effects added all over the place.

I know what you mean, but to play devils advocate, I think my original DSOM is a flawless recording. :)

Marco

28-01-2016, 14:44

I doubt they are different - much. This is a bloody good pressing and I wouldn't want valve mania to allow anyone to drift too far away from the OP and start to think that this is anything other than a great vinyl collecting opportunity. The recording is VERY good. It is very lifelike - I think my earlier post said that. It ain't perfect, and as Macca pointed out that is inherent to some technical gaffs on the original recording.

My comment about dynamic range was a reflection that this music is played with life vibrancy and excitement, in a dynamic range which is lifelike, but not pushing the boundaries of technology hard...

Ok then, but that message was certainly lost/not conveyed successfully in your original post :)

I'll check out Rhiannon Giddens, as before now, I'd not heard of her. Always good to discover new and potentially interesting music in discussions such as this! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

28-01-2016, 14:57

I know what you mean, but to play devils advocate, I think my original DSOM is a flawless recording. :)

Yes, DSOM is undoubtedly a good recording, for a typical 'studio' one. I have an original pressing (solid-blue triangle on the label). I don't know about "flawless", though.

To my ears, it's somewhat '1970s', in terms of sound, imbued with the typical 'signature' often found on records that I would associate with from that period, and rather like some Steely Dan and Fleetwood Mac albums are, from a similar era: dynamic and detailed enough overall, but a little cloudy and 'warm toned', in comparison with the best.

It's certainly nowhere near as immediate/vibrant sounding, or 'shockingly vivid' as, say a good 1959 jazz recording on Blue Note, CBS/Columbia or Verve, or a classical recording from the same era, on Mercury Living Presence, DG or Decca.

Marco.

RichB

01-02-2016, 23:28

struth

01-02-2016, 23:45

Yes, DSOM is undoubtedly a good recording, for a typical 'studio' one. I have an original pressing (solid-blue triangle on the label). I don't know about "flawless", though.

To my ears, it's somewhat '1970s', in terms of sound, imbued with the typical 'signature' often found on records that I would associate with from that period, and rather like some Steely Dan and Fleetwood Mac albums are, from a similar era: dynamic and detailed enough overall, but a little cloudy and 'warm toned', in comparison with the best.

It's certainly nowhere near as immediate/vibrant sounding, or 'shockingly vivid' as, say a good 1959 jazz recording on Blue Note, CBS/Columbia or Verve, or a classical recording from the same era, on Mercury Living Presence, DG or Decca.

Marco.

A few of us did a trial re cd versions and vinyl versions, and the earlyish ones were best,... mine is not first issue but it does outstrip even the latest cd. (dsom)

Oldpinkman

02-02-2016, 08:50

I saw this at a newsagent and bought it for the introductory price of £4.99. I won't be subscribing as I have a few of the albums already including 'kind of blue' on CD. However for that money I was really impressed with the quality of the vinyl and the pressing. Straight out of the sleeve it was quiet as a mouse for a new vinyl and sounded really good.

Good to hear you think so too Rich. I was starting to wonder if my medication had been changed. In my case having lost all but 3 of a handful of jazz LP's I'd had, I was looking to start building from pretty much scratch, and this is a very promising start. I shall be out buying Blue Train in a minute.

Oldpinkman

02-02-2016, 08:57

A few of us did a trial re cd versions and vinyl versions, and the earlyish ones were best,... mine is not first issue but it does outstrip even the latest cd. (dsom)

Blimey, with all this willy waving going on, I dug out my copy to see if I hang out with the big nobs. It was just the LP you bought from the market when I was in the 4th form - no edition numbers. Mine has a black label with a fading blue triangle - SMAS11163.

Am I allowed to enjoy listening to it?

:rolleyes:

Macca

02-02-2016, 08:59

Am I allowed to enjoy listening to it?

:rolleyes:

You are not taking plinky-plonk seriously! 500 lines!

Marco

02-02-2016, 09:21

A few of us did a trial re cd versions and vinyl versions, and the earlyish ones were best,... mine is not first issue but it does outstrip even the latest cd. (dsom)

Yes, I would agree about DSOM... Early (or first) pressings, on vinyl, are undoubtedly best :thumbsup:

If done well to begin with, it's very rare that you can 'improve' on the original version of anything...

Marco.

Oldpinkman

02-02-2016, 09:31

Yes, I would agree... Early (or first) pressings, on vinyl, are undoubtedly best :thumbsup:

If done well to begin with, it's very rare that you can 'improve' on the original version of anything...

Marco.

Returning to the them of this thread, without having an original pressing to hand to compare, the DeAgostinni pressing is first class. Really good.

How did you get on with Rhiannon? Behave, she's a happily married woman you know! :)

Marco

02-02-2016, 09:37

Interesting.... I think she could grow on me. Not an instant 'wow', though.

Marco.

take5

02-02-2016, 10:22

Blimey, with all this willy waving going on, I dug out my copy to see if I hang out with the big nobs. It was just the LP you bought from the market when I was in the 4th form - no edition numbers. Mine has a black label with a fading blue triangle - SMAS11163.

Am I allowed to enjoy listening to it?

:rolleyes:

yes, its ok to enjoy it... LOL

I have a few copies and one is the same as yours. it also has A and B, but no pressing number. sounds really good.

I had more copies a few years ago and did some looking around to see which were the most highly regarded. the solid blue triangle/early ones seem to be the most valuable, but I do remember lots of fans of the A3/B3 pressing.

I remember this, as I have one, and in fact it is my favourite sounding version.

Oldpinkman

02-02-2016, 16:58

No sign of edition 2 today. My village newsagent still has one copy of the first magazine on the shelf if anyone was looking

struth

02-02-2016, 17:03

Never saw it in my wh smith Richard and wasnt signing up for the whole series(or was it mccalls). I thought i had a copy of this but dont seem to be able to find it... Must have sold it! Ah well it wasnt that good anyways :sofa:

take5

02-02-2016, 17:41

Ah well it wasnt that good anyways :sofa:

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

I thought you were a man of taste.

I think you are a blues man, so I can only suggest that you give it another try. Hone in on Freddie Freeloader and All Blues, and see how it can be done . :)

Jason P

02-02-2016, 18:16

I got a copy of KOB from Sainsburys the other day (cognitive dissonance there - buying new jazz vinyl alongside hummus and bog roll...nice!) and was very pleasantly surprised - church-mouse quiet pressing, very dynamic and excellent SQ overall. Nicely presented too. It trounces my CD version by a long margin. Of course I've not the 2-300 odd quid needed for an original, or even the £40-60 for a decent reissue. I'll be getting issue 2 tomorrow (Blue Train) and seeing how that is - if they maintain the quality I may well subscribe, as it is a relatively easy/affordable way of getting hold of some great albums without the pain of hunting down decent 'old' pressings, with all the associated strife of grading etc.

One thing I do think with these older recordings - as has been stated before, they were made at a time when quality was paramount for many releases - and the recording engineers knew exactly how to get the best out of their equipment, which in turn enabled the cutting engineers and pressing plants to get the best out of the source material. What you're listening to on those recordings is the end of an all-analogue chain, played back in a similar fashion. I've heard very little modern vinyl where the source recording (or mastering) was digital that has added anything extra over the CD version. I've no proof for this but I've long felt analogue recording/mastering/pressing captures something ineffable that is lost even in the best digital recordings - something to do with fine acoustic clues that help the brain build a picture of the ambiance around instruments, hence the 'realism' in much early-mid vinyl.

struth

02-02-2016, 18:28

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

I thought you were a man of taste.

I think you are a blues man, so I can only suggest that you give it another try. Hone in on Freddie Freeloader and All Blues, and see how it can be done . :)

yup, blues and jazz among my serious Sinatra habit ;) I would likely have went out of my way to pick a copy up but was sure I still had in on vinyl..... I am more country blues now these days.

Spectral Morn

02-02-2016, 18:39

Nice to see the thread back on track.

I might go buy another copy, a few left in my local Eason's

struth

02-02-2016, 18:53

Nice to see the thread back on track.

I might go buy another copy, a few left in my local Eason's

maybe a good Idea. It may increase in value ... I should have thought of that beore :doh:

:D

Qwin

02-02-2016, 20:47

Well I might as well buy the first issue as I only have Kind of Blue on CD.
When is someone going to release this classic album at the correct speed, that's what I've been waiting for?
The tape machine used to record it needed a service and was running slow, so when it was run at the correct speed to cut the wax it made it faster than they played it, I forget the difference in run time, but musicians say it is enough for them to hear the difference in the tone of the instruments.

Modern chart releases tend to be just digital recorded on to vinyl, that does not make them analogue, in my opinion. I believe it's the sound produced by the whole of the old analogue recording process that is the thing people have an affinity with. Take Alan's (337alant) reel to reel recordings we all wow over at Nebo meets, he told me its just a digital play list he puts together and hits record! Somehow the recording process does something to it that we all feel cosy with. I don't want to get into the technicalities of how or why, or could even lay claim to knowing why, call it distortion or whatever, it just sounds right.

Maybe we need to take a step back, some artists are trying, I saw a documentary where Ellie Golding and session musicians were all playing together in the studio and recording that combined sound straight on to a wax cutting machine in real time. Just like Elvis recorded his first record.

I've noticed of late that a lot of music is more expensive as a down load than as a CD (3 Blue Note Albums off Amazon last week) now I wouldn't even attempt to try and explain the reasoning with that.

But I'm glad the quality of the record with this magazine seems to be good by all accounts.

Ali Tait

02-02-2016, 20:56

I believe a version has been released at the correct speed.

Qwin

02-02-2016, 21:00

If anyone could point me in the right direction for that version, it would be much appreciated.
If it's on vinyl even better.

Ali Tait

02-02-2016, 21:04

I think so, can't point to it off the top of my head though.

struth

02-02-2016, 21:09

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kind-Blue-50th-Anniversary-DVD/dp/B001QU0WGU/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1454447228&sr=1-1&keywords=kind+of+blue+50th+anniversary

is supposed to be right speed.

they had an issue with the stereo verion on one side although some say they were all like that pre 98... dunno but this one i was told was correct speed. dunno about the newer versions like the de agistino

Qwin

02-02-2016, 21:33

Thanks Grant I checked out the 50th anniversary edition you linked to.
The word is that it is at the right speed but only good as a CD, apparently there were lots of issues with the vinyl version being manufactured badly.
By researching that tittle I did however come across a link to the definitive vinyl though in "The London Jazz News 14th July 2014". When they took the original stereo tapes out of the vault to make the correct speed version for the 50th Aniv edition, they also made a high res digital copy that was later used to make a correct speed version for record. Not the best way of doing things but apparently it was done really well as reviewers have found.
This vinyl version is Kind of Blue (Delux)
By Dutch firm: Music on Vinyl MOVLP-019

Its a double album with extras on the second disk including an alternate take of one of the tracks.

Need to track this one down.

EDIT: The speed issue only effected the Stereo version not the mono, which was recorded on a different machine. As the original mono tapes have been lost, modern mono versions are probably not at the right speed either, as they will have been re-mixed off the stereo tapes. If you have an original mono record that will be the dogs whatsits, but you need a mono cartridge to do it justice.

struth

02-02-2016, 21:39

good youve found a disc... I was referring to cd/dvd version(didnt notice there was a vinyl too.)

that one from Dutchland looks to be the one :)

take5

03-02-2016, 08:22

I find this stuff about "wrong speed K.O.B. " interesting.

Which way is it out. fast or slow? How much different? measured in BPM or as a % of another version?

Im not sure that it is anything to get too worried about. I would think it is only something that you would hear if you did a direct/back to back comparison with a version at a different speed.

I suppose a slow version could be said to "drag, be boring, turgid, sleep inducing " etc etc. Or a fast version " rushed, not relaxed, manic " etc etc, but at the levels of difference we are likely to be talking about, Im not sure that it would impact greatly, if at all.

the human brain is very accepting and will probably not notice. ie it likes or dislikes something as presented to it. The brain is more likely to get upset at obvious pitch changes within what it hears, not in the overall piece. ie someone going out of tune briefly may make us cringe, as the brain picks it up.
Being a fifth of a semi tone (for example) out for the whole piece would matter less to the musical part of our brain.

I remember when I was younger spending a great deal of time playing my sax along with LPs, trying to replicate what they where doing. All musicians will have done this. I regularly had to change the tuning on the sax to get in tune with what they were playing. Sometimes I was miles out. My memory tells me this happened a lot. Its just how it was.
Now, as a band they wouldnt have decided to "lets tune miles out from normal", so the Lp must have been released at the wrong speed. This happened often. No big deal. It didnt stop my ( or others) enjoying it and the record makers selling millions of copies.

So, enjoy this work of Art for what it is, not worrying too much about a tiny difference in speed from one version to the next.

However, if it turns out to be 5% different from what it should be, I reserve the right to change my mind !!!!

Qwin

03-02-2016, 08:42

As I said in my opening gambit it was recorded on a slow machine which made it faster than the musicians played it when run on a good machine to cut the wax, It runs approx 1% to fast. There is lots written about this with it being such a well known piece. The pitch is wrong and musicians have said they can here it is wrong, but I wouldn't be able to tell unless I heard side by side recordings of both. Hit middle "C" on a piano and I couldn't tell you if it was in tune. I could tell if someone hit an obvious bum note when playing. I think that would be about right for most non musician music lovers. I would just like to here the tone as it was supposed to be.

With modern technology and all the remastering going on I thought it was the obvious thing to to with this piece and someone has done it at last.

Oldpinkman

03-02-2016, 09:25

This master tape speed stuff reminds me a bit of Pink Triangle days and letters from customers where "My friend, who is a musician says..."
If you can't hear it for yourself, why worry? 1% as a tempo drift is pretty normal - even the tightest bands don't play to a metronome. And 1% pitch is better than most Jazz bass players could manage at the time of Kind of Blue. My guitar can go far more than 1% out of pitch with daily temperature changes but because it does it near enough evenly it is not apparent, unless playing with other instruments in tune. It was only the 3 tracks on side 1 that were recorded on a faulty machine.
Side 1 doesn't sound sharp to me. I thought they had 2 mono and 2 stereo master tapes, and although the mono tapes have vanished, once they found the error with the main machine, they used the tapes from the backup machine, which wasn't faulty thereafter, so no fancy modern pitch shift technology needed. I would assume DeAgostini used the backup tapes - which ran at the correct speed for both side 1 and side 2 - since they seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to research and get the very best available.

I like it. I'm gonna buy Blue Train as soon as I see it

:cool:

Qwin

03-02-2016, 09:50

Like I said, there has been volumes written about this album and at least one TV documentary, which I happened to see and the speed issue was discussed, with old footage of interviews.
I'm not even a Jazz fanatic, I just dip into it now and then as I do with other styles. We seem to prattle on about the best amp or cable or wow and flutter levels on a turntable to three decimal places, I would have thought correcting this error was a no brainer.

I do doubt that DeAgostini got any where near the original tapes. They were only taken out of the safe briefly for the 50th Anniversary Edition and went straight back under lock and key.

RichB

03-02-2016, 10:15

I was completely unaware of the tape speed issue on any version and I've owned the CD version of this for at least 15 year and loved it all the same. Very interesting though.

FWIW I've found a lot of tracks I play along with on bass to be slightly 'out'. Pink Floyd's animals being an example, they've obviously played with tape speeds in the studio intentionally to fit effects and other noises in but when I play along with it you'd think I was out of tune. KOB is a different creature I guess as the 'fault' was unintentional and ideally wouldn't have occurred.

struth

03-02-2016, 10:37

I doubt most folk would notice; me included but some will, and knowing its there can annoy you. Owners of techies can of course adjust it out.

RichB

03-02-2016, 11:23

Also for anyone interested in subscribing the 10 albums in the series are

Miles Davis - Kind of Blue
Billie Holiday - Lady in Satin
Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage
John Coltrane - Blue Train
The Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out
Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um
Cannonball Adderley - Somethin' Else
Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong - Ella and Louis
Stan Getz and Joao Gilberto - Getz/Gilberto
Ben Webster - Meets Oscars Peterson

I have half if these already in various formats but will order the rest from Amazon as they'll make a nice collection.

Qwin

03-02-2016, 11:33

Ali Tait

03-02-2016, 11:37

There are also "special editions" you can sign up to..

RichB

03-02-2016, 11:37

Hi Rich, I thought there were a lot more than this, someone quoted 70 at 2 per month and £14-99 a go.

Wouldn't take long to get through the ten at that rate.
DeAgostini tend to run things for a while to get the most out of it. Again someone said the model car ended up costing around £900 by the time you got all the editions to build it.

It seems this run is only 10 albums. The website only lists 10 issues and you can start your subscription at any issue. I was looking to see which other albums were in the series and the booklet which came with issue #1 listed these 10.

Qwin

03-02-2016, 11:49

No Rich - If you check out their web page for this mag and the info tab, under General FAQ they state 70 issues planned for this series.

That's about a grands worth.

RichB

03-02-2016, 12:01

No Rich - If you check out their web page for this mag and the info tab, under General FAQ they state 70 issues planned for this series.

That's about a grands worth.

Bloody hell! Just as well I'm not subscribing then.

I mean I like jazz and all that but a bag of bloody sand!!! I might spend that on all music purchases and concert tickets in a year.

Jason P

03-02-2016, 13:39

Oldpinkman

03-02-2016, 16:27

Thanks for the nudge Jason. Just popped to the village newsagent, who (in common with 3 other newsagents) didnt have it yesterday

There was one copy only on the shelf - of which I am now the proud owner. I'll give it a spin this evening.

I think I will subscribe, although that's likely to be interesting given I will want to give my parents address for delivery (after yet another - hopefully minor - glitch, this time the buyer needing to change mortgage product, and get another valuation, we are currently HOPING to move at Easter). But I won't (hopefully) be able to get the full series delivered here at the rate of 1 a fortnight.

If this one is any good, then I'll subscribe. With patience it should be possible to sell on any I don't want (and I haven't noticed any candidates for that yet). It is possible to reserve at newsagents or hope for pot luck, and order back issues for any missed, but past experience suggests popular back issues sell out quickly.

There are more issues than the 10 shown on the publicity booklet included in the pack . There are binders available which hold 20 issues - so there are going to be at least 40?

Should I take them up on their offer of a Project turntable ? :scratch:

Maybe not! :eyebrows:

Looking forward to a bit Blue Train :cool:

Qwin

03-02-2016, 17:42

It says "70 issues are currently planned" on their website.
They always reserve the right to pull the plug if it doesn't take off though.

Spectral Morn

03-02-2016, 18:45

I'd read somewhere that the Deagostini KOB is correct, speed-wise.

Just picked up Blue Train and it's every bit as good as KOB - lovely acoustic around the instruments, and a very quiet pressing. Good for a tenner, and makes me more inclined to subscribe if they're all going to be similar quality.

Blue Train isn't out yet. How did you manage that, Tardis ? I bought another Miles Davis, can't have too many copies of Kind Of Blue.

Qwin

03-02-2016, 19:04

Yeh, JazzFM still advertising the first issue last night.
Have you got "Contacts" :eyebrows:

struth

03-02-2016, 19:28

they’ve listed the albums in the collection as:

1. Kind of blue – Miles Davis
2. Blue train – Coltrane
3. Standards vol I – Keith Jarrett
4. Lady in satin – Billie Holiday
5. Now’s the time – Charlie Parker
6. Time out – Dave Brubeck
7. Somethin’ else – Julian Cannonball Addery
8. Waltz for debbie – Bill Evans
9. Ella and Louis – Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong
10. Something else!!! – Ornette Coleman
11. It could happen to you – Chet Baker
12. saxophone colossus – Sonny Rollins
13. out to lunch – Eric Dolphy
14. money jungle – Duke Ellington
15. getz-gilberto – Stan Getz & Joao Gilberto
16. brillant corners – Thelonious Monk
17. mingus ah um – Charles Mingus
18. Go – Dexter Gordon
19. Moanin’ – Art Blakey
20. Bright Size Light – Pat Metheny Group
21. Sarah Vaughan with Clifford Brown – Sarah Vaughan
22. Sketches Of Spain – Miles Davis
23. Speak no evil – Wayne Shorter
24. Meets Oscar Peterson – Ben Webster
25. The Wee Small Hours – Frank Sinatra
26. Turner The Real McCoy – McCoy Tyner
27. Incredible! – Wes Montgomery
28. The Blues and – Oliver Nelson
29. Indeed – Lee Morgan
30. Liberation M. O. – Charlie Haden
31. Meets The Rytmhm S – Art Pepper
32. in Greenwich Village – Albert Ayler
33. Laughin’ to keep – Lester Young
34. Study in Brown – Cliffort Brown & Max Roach
35. Sonny Clark – Cool Struttin’
36. What is there to say – Gerry Mulligan Quartet
37. Coleman Hawkins – Night Hawk
38. Modern Jazz – Quartet Django
39. Lee Konitz – Motion
40. Max Roach – Deeds not wars
41. Quebec Ike – Blue & Sentimental
42. Count Basie – Count Basie at Newport
43. Bill Evans – Portrait in Jazz
44. Benny Carter – Further definitions
45. Joe Henderson – Page One
46. Horace Silver – Song for my father
47. Herbie Hancock – Maiden Voyage
48. Kenny Burrell – Midnight blue
49. Ahmad Jamal – But not for me/At the Pershing
50. Sonny Rollins – The Bridge
51. Nina Simone – Nina Simone at Village Gate
52. Stephane Grappelli – Afternoon in Paris
53. Dinah Washington – In the land of Hi Fi
54. Gene Ammons – The soul moods
55. Joe Pass – For Django
56. Gil Evans – Out of the cool
57. Art Tatum & Ben Webster – The album/The Art
58. Freddie Hubbard – Ready For Freddie
59. Kirk Roland – We fee Kings
60. Wayne Shorter – The Soothsayer
61. Ella Fitzgerald in Rome – Ella Fitzgerald in Rome
62. Lee Morgan – The sidewinder
63. Jimmy Smith – House Party
64. Shirley Horn – Travelin’ night
65. Archie Shepp – On This Night
66. Etta Jones – Don’t Go to Strangers
67. Lee Konitz – Duets
68. Louis Armstrong – Louis Armstrong plays N.C. Handy
69. Paul Desmond – Take Ten
70. Abbey Lincoln – Abbey is Blue
71. Miles Davis Milestone – Miles Davis
72. Art Blakey Drum suite – Art Blakey
73. Jaco Pastorius Jaco Pastorius – Jaco Pastorius
74. Wrapped Tight – Coleman Hawkins
75. Along Came John – Big John Patton
76. Lady sings the blues – Billie Holiday Lady sings the blues
77. Night Train – Oscar Peterson Trio
78. Webster & Associates – Ben Webster
79. Plays Misty – Erroll Garner
80. Much in common – Ray Brown & Milton Jackson

Val33

03-02-2016, 19:44

Where is that list from Grant?

They certainly make things confusing. The FAQ on their site indicates 70 albums but the flyer in the Blue Train booklet (issue 2, purchased today at Sainsburys) states for the 'premium' subscription, that you will receive the storage boxes "with my 10th and final delivery", this would indicate 20 albums!

Have to say, the quality of the Blue Train pressing is every bit as good as the Miles Davis one.

Val

struth

03-02-2016, 19:51

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/de-agostini-jazz-at-33-1-3-rpm-series-in-uk-newsagents.494052/

May be several series in batches of 20 of course

Oldpinkman

03-02-2016, 21:19

MP
Blue Train isn't out yet. How did you manage that, Tardis ? I bought another Miles Davis, can't have too many copies of Kind Of Blue.

Oh yes it is. See my earlier post. Played it earlier this evening. Stonking :D

Spectral Morn

03-02-2016, 21:31

MP

Oh yes it is. See my earlier post. Played it earlier this evening. Stonking :D

List I was looking had Lady in Satin as second release and Blue Train the fourth.

Not out here yet, I will look tomorrow.

Certainly some good albums in that release list Grant posted.

My only concern is there were quiet a few copies of Kind Of Blue still about, if they don't sell then the rest of that list might not get released. I buy the Starship Collections models..... yep I know.... not a Trekie as such but I like Sci-Fi models. Anyway very few newsagents stock them any more because they didn't sell that well. I have to travel up to the big smoke to get them. I could subscribe but the quality varies between model to model and QC isn't always great so I like to pick from what's on display what is best put together. I would worry that later issues of the Jazz records might not be that good as the time between yes this is a seller to no its a turkey isn't great so is it possible to maintain the quality? If the decision to continue is made late ?

struth

03-02-2016, 21:46

Probably only half a dozen of them I would go for tops, that I dont already have, but much of it is not my kind of Jazz tbh.

Qwin

04-02-2016, 07:10

WOOOOHHH!

This is what I hate about the web.
That list Grant, which you have taken off a Steve Hoffman forum posting, quite clearly states its source was DeAgostini's Italian site. What they do or don't produce in Italian isn't much concern to us here.

DeAgostini's UK web page states 70 issues in the series not 80 and the order is different, as they show Billie Holiday as Issue 3 not Keith Jarrett as per your list.

https://www.deagostini.com/uk/collections/jazz-vinyl/

Scroll down and you will see the 2nd and 3rd issue front covers.

The thing is, someone else is probably going to find what you have written in a search and quote you and continue the game of Chinese whispers.

Best to believe what they have posted themselves, regarding their intended UK publication.;)

EDIT: Ooops, AoS is not just for the UK so sorry if I have offended any non UK members or casual viewers.

Oldpinkman

04-02-2016, 07:33

Neil - Blue Train was always issue 2 - if you look at the "next issue" box on the back page. But rather confusingly they laid out their "teaser 10" with Blue Train appearing 4th
Yes Ken, Billie Holliday is next. I already have most of the material but the first 2 were so good I'm going to get this one.
I reckon I'm in for at least the first 10 - I had been about to go looking for the Dave Brubeck before Neil pointed this collection out

I may bail out later, but the option to be nimble at a newsagents is not viable if we move to France. Cagey tells me its not running over there. I might see if I can find someone over here to shop for me, but my parents are getting too old to be reliable for that.

Be interesting to see how well its doing, and whether the series runs the full course.

:cool:

Qwin

04-02-2016, 07:53

I will probably take the first couple at reduced price as I don't have either on vinyl, I also have a few of the others on Grants list, which is probably not far from what we will get here, so I may just pick and choose.

The trouble is, going off their other publications, they are widely available at newsagents for the first few issues, then become scarce as they stop stocking them on the shelves, due to repeat customers making a regular order, or subscribing direct.

I don't live in a large town so haven't been able to find the first issue yet.

I have the Dave Brubeck as a first UK pressing on Fontana. But another copy would save wear and tear on it.

Spectral Morn

04-02-2016, 08:38

Qwin

04-02-2016, 09:17

I don't think its lack of sales, though there is bound to be a drop off after the initial advertising campaign. I think once people are hooked and don't want to miss an issue, they order it direct, or have a regular order with the newsagent, so it all goes off under the counter. They will probably only sell a few off the shelf once a few months have passed and I'm not sure if they do sale or return with this type of thing, so they may stop stocking additional copies on the shelves for this reason.
To a degree they have taken a bit of a gamble with this series. Normally once you have started collecting the parts for your steam train, car, or Millennium Falcon, you are pretty much committed to buy every issue, or you can't complete the model. With records you can pick and choose and enjoy them as individual items, so they don't quite have the same grip on you.

struth

04-02-2016, 09:17

Qwin

04-02-2016, 09:23

True, if an infinite number of monkey's had an infinite number of type writers.:D

Qwin

04-02-2016, 13:52

Well I finally got a copy and KOB.
I think the list of newsagents on their website is just that.
I went through five before I found one that had ever stocked it, and then like buses, he had several copies on the shelf.

I'll go along with the reported good quality. Mine is dead flat, with a silent back ground, two tiny visible marks on T3 S1, these play as a light click for about 4 turns each, T2 S2 has surface noise for a few seconds just after the start other than that nothing.

On my equipment - The sound is not the most dynamic I've heard, but by no means dull, double bass comes across slightly deeper on my CD version (for what ever reason). The Brass sounds better on the record than the CD with a cleaner/smoother lead in to those very abrupt starts to certain trumpet pieces, but that might be as much about the medium. Overall not bad at all, whoever mastered and pressed it for them has done a good job, makes for a very fine listen.

It's certainly good enough to make me want the second issue.

Oldpinkman

04-02-2016, 14:00

I've just finished reading the magazine with KOB while having lunch. The following excerpt is probably of interest to the "is it fast" brigade

"The worst error was that the tracks on the first side were a quarter tone sharp ** because one of the recording machines was faulty, and this was not put right until 1977"

I conclude from that (and listening to it) that this version is at the correct speed. Looks like its a legend - but long since fixed - either by running the playback machine slow for the faulty tape, or using the backup machine tapes.

** a quarter tone is more than 1%. Taking a 440Hz A note a quarter tone is about 2-3%.

Qwin

04-02-2016, 14:18

I did say about 1%, I was just quoting the article in the London Jazz News which I cited, so it depends who you want to believe.
I'm not a big Jazz follower, it was the TV documentary that raised it to my attention in the first place.

The more you read on the subject the more legend and myth you unearth.:)

Spectral Morn

04-02-2016, 16:59

Bought the John Coltrane today, along HiFi+ I didn't buy last months, too many review reprints as part of an awards issue and not enough interesting new reviews.

Folkboy

04-02-2016, 22:52

Still haven't been able to find a copy of the first one, so will try for Coltraine instead.

Found Coltraine straight away.

As for the big list of titles, would really only like Jimmy Smith.

surv1v0r

12-02-2016, 11:39

Bought my £10 copy of Blue Train by John Coltrane yesterday - excellent, better than the initial £5 offering of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.

I already have a load of Billie Holiday albums so I will pass on the next one and to be honest, I'm not convinced that I can justify £15 for future releases - I will just keep an eye out for whatever is released.

Spectral Morn

12-02-2016, 12:06

Macca

12-02-2016, 12:59

'Mass market not yet ready for Nineteen-Fifties jazz' shocker...

Spectral Morn

12-02-2016, 13:12

'Mass market not yet ready for Nineteen-Fifties jazz' shocker...

and on....... vinyl.

I thought it an odd choice.

struth

12-02-2016, 13:20

As much as vinyl has had a huge resurgence its still mostly among a defined group. The new brigade of youngsters may be buying vinyl now but not jazz.. If it covered a number of genres it may be more successful and introduce younger folk gently to jazz or blues but a wholecseries is going to appeal ti audiophiles a!d jazz ones at that who alas probably already have covers

Spectral Morn

12-02-2016, 13:32

Macca

12-02-2016, 13:35

I didn't get into jazz until I was in my thirties. Can't remember what got me into it but I noticed the other day I have 2 copies of KOB so I must have been taking it seriously at some point.

Marco

12-02-2016, 13:59

Well, I've bought the Mo-Fi 45rpm box set, from Scott Nangle, which has just arrived today: http://snvinyl.co.uk/Miles-Davies-Kind-Of-Blue-45rpm-180g-2LP-Ltd-Ed

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/DxhvXt.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poDxhvXtj)

...and should be the crème de la crème. I intend comparing it with the latest Jazz33/DeAgostini version (and the old US-pressed one I have on Columbia), and report on the differences, sonically. So look out for that one! ;)

Marco.

Qwin

12-02-2016, 15:51

I am seeing signs already locally that this series is doomed to not be found in News agents. Numerous copies left of Issue 2 and a few local News agents didn't bother with getting issue 2 in, because they had too many copies of Issue 1 unsold.

Issue 2 is still on sale, I only got mine today, Issue 3 is not on sale till the 17th?

Some people had issue 2 before I had managed to find anyone selling issue 1. 7th Newsagent listed on their site before I was successful. He did say he wouldn't be continuing with it, I had to travel nearly 20miles round trip for the second one.

Marco

12-02-2016, 15:58

Hi Ken,

Why fart about going to newsagents, when you can do it on line: https://www.deagostini.com/uk/collections/jazz-vinyl/order.html

:cool:

Marco.

Qwin

12-02-2016, 16:15

Marco - I don't do subscriptions for this type of thing.

I had a bad experience, I used to be a regular with Britannia music, bought loads of CD's off them without a problem, till I tried to leave.
A year and a half later, they were still sending me stuff I didn't want, hell I'd moved from Bolton to Nuneaton in that time, and the owners of my old property were forwarding parcels and invoice payment demands to my new address.

I haven't read the small print of what you agree to purchase, but its not always as easy to stop as they make out. ;)

struth

12-02-2016, 16:17

Me neither! Wife had one and it caused some trouble cancelling.. Cost me a bomb.....wont do those charity monthlys either.. I offer a one off cash donation and they say....sorry we want a monthly donation even a single month...hmm. That means its difficult to stop.

Marco

12-02-2016, 16:29

Fair enough, but I've read the terms and conditions, and in this instance they seem rather straightforward. Besides, with a credit card payment system, YOU are in control, and as such, can stop payment at any time.

There's simply no way I'd ever pay FOOK ALL for anything that I didn't want! :nono:

Marco.

Qwin

12-02-2016, 18:14

I had solicitors letters, debt collection agencies turning up on my doorstep and threats to take me to court for non payment for goods they had sent.

This all screwed with my credit rating, enough that it stopped me getting a mortgage at the time, that and a cock up on the electoral register that meant I couldn't prove were I lived.

Simply not paying does not always work, or stop the damn things coming. :D

To be fair, I've no experience with DeAgostini, so I may be doing them a disservice.

Barry

12-02-2016, 18:30

If they sent you unsolicited goods and they are un-opened (so they can be returned) and have been looked after safely (that is, kept in a cool and dry place), the sender has to pay for their return. Not only that, but you are entitled to charge for storage.

Apropos regular charity donations - if you want to stop them just cancel the direct debit mandate.

struth

12-02-2016, 18:37

yes my son had a monthly donation to a charity and he did that. They phoned him several times and tried to persuade him and make him feel guilty etc.. the first time it worked too. He is easily persuaded as he has mental health issues...

I had similar probs with a company who wouldn't answer the phone just put you on permanent hold and just kept sending stuff.. wouldnt take it back as there was no address..nightmare; can

Qwin

12-02-2016, 19:09

Barry - I don't think you quite understand the depths to which these type of people will go.

They invoiced me for things I had returned and used a common trick and marked my debt with the credit agencies as an undisclosed amount. So my mortgage company didn't know if I owed a fiver or fifty thousand quid when they did a credit score. This was ultimately their down fall as this broke basic credit law (solicitors advice), in that you have to let people know what they owe you. After they ignored my solicitors communications and phone calls made by a junior on the hour every hour for 3 days, he sent them a letter by courier, advising that at noon the next day a request was to be handed in to the high court, that they be suspended as a credit agent, for breaking the rule I mentioned. This would mean they could not take credit card payments off anyone. Their financial Director contacted him within 4 hours and the problem was resolved by the end of the day. It cost me £2000 quid to get this sorted, but I got the mortgage offer and the house.

Didn't really want to go into all that, but needless to say, what rights you think you have can seem pitifully inadequate when things go tits up. If you sign a contract like the one I did for regular qty's of CD's to come, you can't claim unsolicited goods, they fall back on the small print.

Anyway, that thankfully is all water under the bridge, it has left me very wary of signing any agreements though. :rolleyes:

Back on topic, just listened to the second album, very nice, perfect copy, not a tick either side.

surv1v0r

12-02-2016, 19:23

"I don't think you quite understand the depths to which these type of people will go."

I take it that your use of the description "these type of people" is because this is a family forum? ;)

Back in the day before they disappeared, someone had managed to use my name and address to borrow DVDs from Blockbuster. When they stopped returning things, Blockbuster chased me up, it took me nearly a year to get them off my back.

A well known kitchen fittings company screwed up their accounts records and about five years after they had fitted a kitchen in my house they demanded money with menaces, I had an absolute nightmare proving that I had paid them years earlier.

I never sign up for anything and I now demand and keep receipts for many significant amounts.

Marco

12-02-2016, 19:26

Sorry to hear about all of that, Ken, and glad it's now all sorted. However, I think we're getting a little melodramatic, in terms of what's likely to happen with taking out a subscription with DeAgostini, for these jazz records.... :)

If I do decide to take one out, I'll happily continue until the full quota of music titles listed has been sent to me, after which that'll be it.

Full series list, apparently (depending on how popular it becomes and how many folks sign up, I'd imagine, otherwise it could all end much sooner):

1. Kind of blue - Miles Davis
2. Blue train - Coltrane
3. Standards vol I - Keith Jarrett
4. Lady in satin - Billie Holiday
5. Now's the time - Charlie Parker
6. Time out - Dave Brubeck
7. Somethin' else - Julian Cannonball Addery
8. Waltz for debbie - Bill Evans
9. Ella and Louis - Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong
10. Something else!!! - Ornette Coleman
11. It could happen to you - Chet Baker
12. saxophone colossus - Sonny Rollins
13. out to lunch - Eric Dolphy
14. money jungle - Duke Ellington
15. getz-gilberto - Stan Getz & Joao Gilberto
16. brillant corners - Thelonious Monk
17. mingus ah um - Charles Mingus
18. Go - Dexter Gordon
19. Moanin' - Art Blakey
20. Bright Size Light - Pat Metheny Group
21. Sarah Vaughan with Clifford Brown - Sarah Vaughan
22. Sketches Of Spain - Miles Davis
23. Speak no evil - Wayne Shorter
24. Meets Oscar Peterson - Ben Webster
25. The Wee Small Hours - Frank Sinatra
26. Turner The Real McCoy - McCoy Tyner
27. Incredible! - Wes Montgomery
28. The Blues and - Oliver Nelson
29. Indeed - Lee Morgan
30. Liberation M. O. - Charlie Haden
31. Meets The Rytmhm S - Art Pepper
32. in Greenwich Village - Albert Ayler
33. Laughin' to keep - Lester Young
34. Study in Brown - Cliffort Brown & Max Roach
35. Sonny Clark - Cool Struttin'
36. What is there to say - Gerry Mulligan Quartet
37. Coleman Hawkins - Night Hawk
38. Modern Jazz - Quartet Django
39. Lee Konitz - Motion
40. Max Roach - Deeds not wars
41. Quebec Ike - Blue & Sentimental
42. Count Basie - Count Basie at Newport
43. Bill Evans - Portrait in Jazz
44. Benny Carter - Further definitions
45. Joe Henderson - Page One
46. Horace Silver - Song for my father
47. Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage
48. Kenny Burrell - Midnight blue
49. Ahmad Jamal - But not for me/At the Pershing
50. Sonny Rollins - The Bridge
51. Nina Simone - Nina Simone at Village Gate
52. Stephane Grappelli - Afternoon in Paris
53. Dinah Washington - In the land of Hi Fi
54. Gene Ammons - The soul moods
55. Joe Pass - For Django
56. Gil Evans - Out of the cool
57. Art Tatum & Ben Webster - The album/The Art
58. Freddie Hubbard - Ready For Freddie
59. Kirk Roland - We fee Kings
60. Wayne Shorter - The Soothsayer
61. Ella Fitzgerald in Rome - Ella Fitzgerald in Rome
62. Lee Morgan - The sidewinder
63. Jimmy Smith - House Party
64. Shirley Horn - Travelin' night
65. Archie Shepp - On This Night
66. Etta Jones - Don't Go to Strangers
67. Lee Konitz - Duets
68. Louis Armstrong - Louis Armstrong plays N.C. Handy
69. Paul Desmond - Take Ten
70. Abbey Lincoln - Abbey is Blue
71. Miles Davis Milestone - Miles Davis
72. Art Blakey Drum suite - Art Blakey
73. Jaco Pastorius Jaco Pastorius - Jaco Pastorius
74. Wrapped Tight - Coleman Hawkins
75. Along Came John - Big John Patton
76. Lady sings the blues - Billie Holiday Lady sings the blues
77. Night Train - Oscar Peterson Trio
78. Webster & Associates - Ben Webster
79. Plays Misty - Erroll Garner
80. Much in common - Ray Brown & Milton Jackson

That'll certainly take a while to collect! :cool:

Marco.

Qwin

12-02-2016, 19:37

Not making a big thing of it Marco, just sayin, these things happen. :)

Sorry no, this is the wrong list, as I pointed out last time it was posted, this is what the Italians might be getting, taken off their web page.
:lol::lol::lol: didn't I tell you this would happen Grant!

According to UK web page, we are getting a PROPOSED 70 Issues.
As far as I know a list of what these might be has not been put out, but will most likely be made up from some of these.

Issue 3 on the list is Keith Jarrett, we know it is to be Billie Holiday here. ;)

It's over a thousand quid for the 70 issues.

Just noticed, this Coltrane album on vinyl is only £9.59 at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Train-VINYL-John-Coltrane/dp/B00HG30CD4/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1455306796&sr=1-3&keywords=john+coltrane+blue+train

Billie Holiday 180g £14.84 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lady-Satin-VINYL-Billie-Holiday/dp/B007AE6ASU/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1455309876&sr=1-11&keywords=billie+holiday+lady+in+satin

Dave Brubeck - Time Out £9.63, 180g £14.65 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Time-Out-180g-12-VINYL/dp/B009E7M8UA/ref=sr_1_14?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1455310086&sr=1-14&keywords=dave+brubeck+time+out

Marco

12-02-2016, 19:52

Okies, well I'll sign up for the proposed 70 (if they're as good as what's on the list I posted), after which they won't get another penny from me, unless *I* decide differently ;)

Marco.

struth

12-02-2016, 19:53

Shoot the bloody messenger wont you :doh: ;)

judging by the way its selling, they will stop at 10 probably...depends how many they are contracted into

Marco

12-02-2016, 20:00

Shoot the bloody messenger wont you :doh: ;)

Soz, dunno wot yer mean...

Marco.

Qwin

12-02-2016, 20:12

It's hard to say how well its doing, after struggling to find issue 1, I spoke to the staff at WHSmith when purchasing issue 2 and they had to give it a stand of its own, not enough space on the shelves with the other mags and the chap said that they had placed additional orders several times, as they went like hot cakes.
But yes, always a bit of a gamble this one, not like a model car, where you are committed to buying all the parts to finish it, each record can be enjoyed in its own right, so less of a hold on you, can pick and choose what if any to buy.

Qwin

12-02-2016, 20:17

Soz, dunno wot yer mean...

Marco.

I pulled Grant up, earlier in the thread for contributing to Chinese Whispers by posting this list which was posted on the Steve Hoffmann forum, but he had missed the all important opening statement that it was taken off the Italian web page. I said people would start copying his list or someone else's copy of it. :eyebrows:
Actually I remember him saying he didn't get it from the original posting, he copied a copy that had overlooked this fact.
At this rate it will be 500 issues at £30 a copy by next week. :D

mikeyb

12-02-2016, 20:50

What's jazz?

Qwin

12-02-2016, 20:53

That's Jazz, Oh Yehhh......

Marco

12-02-2016, 20:54

I pulled Grant up, earlier in the thread for contributing to Chinese Whispers by posting this list which was posted on the Steve Hoffmann forum, but he had missed the all important opening statement that it was taken off the Italian web page. I said people would start copying his list or someone else's copy of it. :eyebrows:
Actually I remember him saying he didn't get it from the original posting, he copied a copy that had overlooked this fact.
At this rate it will be 500 issues at £30 a copy by next week. :D

Ah, that makes more sense now, as I wasn't aware of any of that! ;)

Marco.

surv1v0r

13-02-2016, 09:48

[snipped]
Just noticed, this Coltrane album on vinyl is only £9.59 at Amazon:
Billie Holiday 180g £14.84
Dave Brubeck - Time Out £9.63
[snipped]
You couldn't make it up - marketing, dontcha luv it! :lol:

m10

19-02-2016, 17:12

I've just got the John Coltrane in the post today along with the Miles Davis, and they seem very nicely done indeed. The Coltrane is new to me (sounds excellent to these ears), but the Miles is way superior to my 1990s Columbia copy (PC5163) in almost every way.

Barry

19-02-2016, 19:18

My copy of 'Kind of Blue' is the Nimbus 'supercut', distributed by Practical Hi-Fi magazine in the '80s. These now fetch at least £100 on eBay.

Between CD and LP, I have about four or five copies of the piece.

m10

19-02-2016, 19:36

I have the also very nice Mastersound Gold CD of Kind of Blue. It's one of those staples that you sometimes take for granted, but when you listen again it strikes you just how awesome it is. The new issue in this Jazz at 33 series is very good indeed.

Marco

19-02-2016, 21:59

Well, I can confirm that the Mo-Fi 45rpm direct from master tapes vinyl transfer, I recently bought from Scott, is UTTERLY STUNNING - so dynamic and lifelike, with all the respective instruments sounding convincingly real, it positively takes your breath away! :eek: :eek:

This is in a different league from any other version of KoB I've heard or own, all beautifully presented with the enclosed artwork and literature, and so truly one to unpack and savour on special occasions, both to enjoy this musical masterpiece, and also show off the results that vinyl is capable of when taken to these rather lofty standards of sonic perfection.

I'm therefore proud to add this superb box set to my record collection. Highly recommended! :cool:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/DxhvXt.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poDxhvXtj)

£51.99, from Scott Nangle Audio.

Marco.

m10

20-02-2016, 11:43

That looks lush - although 45rpm editions of albums kinda bug me that's a personal hang up -- I'm sure it sounds gorgeous

Marco

21-02-2016, 23:34

I know what you mean, Malcolm, but just treat it as big 12" singles! ;)

The sheer level of dynamic range and impact from real instruments is quite something..... 'Shockingly vivid' just about sums it up! :eek:

Marco.

Oldpinkman

22-02-2016, 07:53

I always find it a bit worrying when "super whizzo extra bits" versions are so much better. By definition therefore routine normal 33 1/3 rpm records we fill our collections with and play all the time are a long way sub-standard to the master tape and the maximum potential a vinyl system can achieve. Maybe we should stick to "right first time " CD's

Don't get me wrong - I recognise that somewhere in all the mixing and mastering better and worse versions get produced. But the idea that 45rpm is HiFi, and 33 1/3 is for audio books only troubles me. I wonder how much it is an engineering reality and how much it is marketing "skimming". I have described this technique before - relating to books. A book is after all the words you read. But you can sell it to an elite few for £25 as the hard back, and the eager many as a first release paperback for £9, and then the bargain hunters as a penguin edition for £5, with many of us picking it up at a charity shop used for £1. We read the same words.

I take it that I am no longer alone in thinking these De Agostini pressings decent enough to part with money for. Lets hope the series runs :cool:

Marco

22-02-2016, 18:20

Hi Richard,

I've compared the Mo-Fi box set with the DeAgostini release of K.O.B, and the former is considerably better: just more 'out the box', dynamic and musically convincing - all of which makes you feel closer to experiencing the original performance.

Honestly, the difference isn't subtle :)

Marco.

Oldpinkman

22-02-2016, 21:13

Just imagine what the rest of your indifferent average quality record collection could sound like if you could get similar quality special editions of them. It's a pity we have to listen to so much suboptimal music on vinyl. You can see why the format lost popularity if most material was talking book standard

Marco

22-02-2016, 21:54

Lol... It's nice to have a few special recordings like that to savour (especially when the music's good), and show just what vinyl can do at its best. I have a number of Mo-Fi recordings, and other half-speed mastered, 45rpm stuff on vinyl, which fulfil that role rather nicely :)

Marco.

Qwin

07-04-2016, 00:47

RichB

07-04-2016, 07:30

I've not seen any in the newsagents past issue 1 Ken.

Would have picked up the odd one as I didn't subscribe.

Spectral Morn

07-04-2016, 07:55

This thread has gone very quite, I suspect not many have bothered with the full price items, I noticed issue six in WHSmith last week, wasn't tempted.
I would be interested to know if the quality has continued to be as good, I found them to be good for the price, even full price, but not "Audiophile" recordings.

I was tempted by the Dave Brubeck but 15 quid was too much to risk so didn't. ASDA are still doing it where I live, but all other newsagents no longer do, that isn't a surprise.

Oldpinkman

09-04-2016, 18:51

I was tempted by the Dave Brubeck but 15 quid was too much to risk so didn't. ASDA are still doing it where I live, but all other newsagents no longer do, that isn't a surprise.

Just picked up 3,4,5, and 6 from my dads. (Had to use his address for deliveries now we are moving to France). And I've just played the Dave Brubeck

Arthur has a mint copy, and I have been after this LP for 25 years. This is the original bollocks of the dog, (as we say in France). It is the reason I subscribed - (not for the crappy record cleaning kit - offers anyone?). This is a really good recording and just sounds SOOO good, even with a bandaid still on one dustcover (SL63). Hopefully I'll get the chance to listen to the others this week, although its going to be a bit full-on for the next couple of months

Not sure I'll take the full collection, but certainly happy to keep rolling for a few more

And the Brubeck - stunning!

:D

m10

09-04-2016, 20:31

Just picked up 3,4,5, and 6 from my dads. (Had to use his address for deliveries now we are moving to France). And I've just played the Dave Brubeck

Arthur has a mint copy, and I have been after this LP for 25 years. This is the original bollocks of the dog, (as we say in France). It is the reason I subscribed - (not for the crappy record cleaning kit - offers anyone?). This is a really good recording and just sounds SOOO good, even with a bandaid still on one dustcover (SL63). Hopefully I'll get the chance to listen to the others this week, although its going to be a bit full-on for the next couple of months

Not sure I'll take the full collection, but certainly happy to keep rolling for a few more

And the Brubeck - stunning!

:D

I've got and played them all so far, and I think the quality has been exemplary throughout. I agree that Time Out was excellent (to a quite exciting degree) and I've really enjoyed the Cannonball Adderley (a new album and artist to me). Even the ancient Charlie Parker recordings seem to leap from the speakers. Looking forward to Ella and Louis.

In audiophile terms I'd say they're on a par with Music on Vinyl - nothing to be sniffy about in my opinion.

Spectral Morn

09-04-2016, 22:06

Just picked up 3,4,5, and 6 from my dads. (Had to use his address for deliveries now we are moving to France). And I've just played the Dave Brubeck

Arthur has a mint copy, and I have been after this LP for 25 years. This is the original bollocks of the dog, (as we say in France). It is the reason I subscribed - (not for the crappy record cleaning kit - offers anyone?). This is a really good recording and just sounds SOOO good, even with a bandaid still on one dustcover (SL63). Hopefully I'll get the chance to listen to the others this week, although its going to be a bit full-on for the next couple of months

Not sure I'll take the full collection, but certainly happy to keep rolling for a few more

And the Brubeck - stunning!

:D

Ahhh well my loss, sounds like it was a good one. ASDA where I am has stopped stocking it now too.