Ortofon 2m black or Cadenza black

[British high fidelity]

Hi guys I've finally decide to go for a new cartridge I was recommended by AoS members awhile ago the nagaoka mp300 but in all honesty I am a fan of ortofon and would like to stick with this manufacturer, so I need help with choosing an ortofon black,

Arm is SME series iii
And deck is Thorens TD125 MKII

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated

Deano

[RobbieGong]

Hi guys I've finally decide to go for a new cartridge I was recommended by AoS members awhile ago the nagaoka mp300 but in all honesty I am a fan of ortofon and would like to stick with this manufacturer, so I need help with choosing an ortofon black,

Arm is SME series iii
And deck is Thorens TD125 MKII

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated

Deano

The 2M at around £450 is lots less than the £1750 (can be had cheaper) the Cadenza tends to go for so depends on how much you have and your system. As a proud 2M Black owner I can say it is a fantastic cart IME. I and others have found it a right pain / fussy to set up / find it's 'right' spot but when you do it is fab in an more 'accurate' and 'honest' sense which I love rather than the romantic, fruity, colored or overtly ballsy flavour some favour. As such if I had the money the Cadenza Black is the only other cart at the mo that I would have my eye on, simply because I believe it gives more of the same great things I love about the 2M Black, sharing the same quality Shibata stylus profile. Over to you :)

[British high fidelity]

Thanks brother I have been keen on the blacks for sometime and are very interested in the 2m black, BUT, I don't want to hastily buy the 2m black and then want an upgrade 6 months down the line, my thinking is if I wait and go for the Cadenza black (funds pending) then I'm basically set for the next 10years, and no need to upgrade 😀

[Wakefield Turntables]

Cadenza black - But then again I'm biased. Best cart I ever heard, extremely analytical and very detailed, just make sure that's the sound you want. ;)

[RobbieGong]

Thanks brother I have been keen on the blacks for sometime and are very interested in the 2m black, BUT, I don't want to hastily buy the 2m black and then want an upgrade 6 months down the line, my thinking is if I wait and go for the Cadenza black (funds pending) then I'm basically set for the next 10years, and no need to upgrade ��

Good thinking Deano, particularly if you believe you'll be able to attain the funds and like the Ortofon's which you do. I've not had or Cadenza Black but all I've read makes me want one one day, especially after my experience with it's younger sibling the 2M Black - All the best either way. ;)

[NRG]

Having used a KontraB on a SME s3 in the past I would say you are not going to realise anywhere near the full potential of the Candenza Black. IMHO you will be wasting your money, I feel you would be better off with the 2M and paying attention to the loading and setup. You do not mention what phono stage you have, that also may have a limiting affect as well.

[CageyH]

How about a quintet black?

[British high fidelity]

Phono is choice of three actually I have as below

Rotel RQ970bx
Tricorn Dino
Graham Slee

Tricord is new just bought of a friend and is mk2 version

Hope this helps with with advice

[British high fidelity]

Yes sorry I forgot to put the quintet in the equation how's the quintet with series 3

[CageyH]

What model is the Graham Slee?

[RobbieGong]

How about a quintet black?

Hi Kevin, I've been very curious about that one from the off but not sure how much 'better' it would be over the 2M ?? I'm just not sure. Have you heard one yet Kev ?

[CageyH]

Not heard one, but I looked at one as a sensibly priced MC alternative to the 2M Black.

[British high fidelity]

Only a cheap one the Gram amp 2 SE

I also have the audiowind A310 which is being molded to be able to switch upto 700pf capatence

[NRG]

This may help: Quintet. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30598-Ortofon-Quintet-cartridges

[aniki]

This may help: Quintet. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30598-Ortofon-Quintet-cartridges

I'll quickly jump to the defence of the Quintet and say that I'm firmly in the camp of folk that disagree with that review. I've compared all three carts side by side (2M, Quintet and Cadenza) and I would say quite honestly that while the QB offers slightly more finesse and detail retrieval than the 2M, it also offers about 80% of the Cadenza.
The Quintet range really is quite a revelation.
-
As for the OP, I think the phono stage wil definitely need an upgrade before the cart. That being said, I agree that modern Ortofons do provide a modern and analytical presentation so the OP should decide if they really want better or just different.

[British high fidelity]

Thanks for the advice

[jostber]

The 2M might be the best value for money as you can also change out just the needle for this later when needed:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Black-Stylus

[British high fidelity]

Thanks jostber

[CageyH]

Which brings up the question about MP-500 vs 2M Black as the replacement stylus for the MP-500 is much cheaper.

[RobbieGong]

Hi Deano, It all depends on the sound you like / prefer. Some are drawn to a sound with a 'flavour' of some kind, which is cool if that's your thing. The Black is not known as being flavoured, more so detailed, accurate across it's presentation, honest in my experience, some would say analytical. When set up spot on I hear the forementioned coupled with musical, realism, lifelike portrayal of texture timbre etc more so than analytical. It digs deep and retrieves and separates out a lot of stuf so that might explain why that description is sometimes used which is fine but don't think that means the Black has no soul or is sterile :eek: :nono:. I would have sold mine on sharpish if that was the case.

There's loads on line comparing the 2M Black and Nag' MP 500 for obvious reasons. They are both two mm big guns / flagships from two very respected cart' designers. There's a couple of links to related online chat here.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/nagaoka-mp-500-or-ortofon-2m-black - third post down

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=43706 - read from last post, bottom of page one onwards

[CageyH]

Personally, I am thinking of adding an ATN150SA to my AT150MLX.
It should give the other high end MMs a run for their money.

[British high fidelity]

Thanks guys

[British high fidelity]

Hi Deano, It all depends on the sound you like / prefer. Some are drawn to a sound with a 'flavour' of some kind, which is cool if that's your thing. The Black is not known as being flavoured, more so detailed, accurate across it's presentation, honest in my experience, some would say analytical. When set up spot on I hear the forementioned coupled with musical, realism, lifelike portrayal of texture timbre etc more so than analytical. It digs deep and retrieves and separates out a lot of stuf so that might explain why that description is sometimes used which is fine but don't think that means the Black has no soul or is sterile :eek: :nono:. I would have sold mine on sharpish if that was the case.

There's loads on line comparing the 2M Black and Nag' MP 500 for obvious reasons. They are both two mm big guns / flagships from two very respected cart' designers. There's a couple of links to related online chat here.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/nagaoka-mp-500-or-ortofon-2m-black - third post down

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=43706 - read from last post, bottom of page one onwards
Very interesting read hmmm now I'm in a quandary lol

[RobbieGong]

Very interesting read hmmm now I'm in a quandary lol

Lol, I'm not surprised. As you see, these are both very good carts and even those who have had experience of both dont actually particularly express loving one way over the other. There both good and just do it different - no wonder your head hurts :lol: The world and a can of worms that is a passion for hifi :eyebrows: once you're in, you're done for :eek: :D

[British high fidelity]

Yeah tell me about it, rofl

[British high fidelity]

I think I'm going to try the MP500 as Audiokazu are selling it at special for 67000 yen which equates to 395 quid which Is half the price of the 2m black, must be definitely worth a shot, imho

[RobbieGong]

I think I'm going to try the MP500 as Audiokazu are selling it at special for 67000 yen which equates to 395 quid which Is half the price of the 2m black, must be definitely worth a shot, imho

Worth a shot most definately at £395. Thats not a lot of dough for a flagship mm. The Black tends to go for around the £450 mark for 2M, up to £650 quintet and up to £1750 Cadenza :eek:

[British high fidelity]

Yeah sorry I did mean the mp500 is half the price of the quintet not the 2mb, 6am in the morning here need more coffee me thinks

[Jimbo]

I think I'm going to try the MP500 as Audiokazu are selling it at special for 67000 yen which equates to 395 quid which Is half the price of the 2m black, must be definitely worth a shot, imho

As a 2M Black owner I think if I were buying a top end MM cartridge again it would be the MP500. 2M has been great in my system but I think the Nag MP500 would be more my cup of tea. The 2M is a bit sterile and not as musical as some other MM out there. If you want detail and an analytical approach bordering on CD playback - the 2M is your baby.

But hey that might be just how it came across in my system.

[Marco]

If I answered the OP's question honestly, I'd simply say one word: "Neither!" :lol:

Get something less clinical and 'hi-fi sounding', would be my advice. The other thing is, neither cartridge is really suitable for an SME III, least of all the Cadenza...

Marco.

[RobbieGong]

As a 2M Black owner I think if I were buying a top end MM cartridge again it would be the MP500. 2M has been great in my system but I think the Nag MP500 would be more my cup of tea. The 2M is a bit sterile and not as musical as some other MM out there. If you want detail and an analytical approach bordering on CD playback - the 2M is your baby.

But hey that might be just how it came across in my system.

I hear ya Jimbo, never found mine like cd, quite the opposite to be honest. cd tends to sound detailed, clear, bright, glassy to my ears. The black in my system sounding neutral and... well.. analogue ;)

[British high fidelity]

If I answered the OP's question honestly, I'd simply say one word: "Neither!" :lol:

Get something less clinical and 'hi-fi sounding', would be my advice. The other thing is, neither cartridge is really suitable for an SME III, least of all the Cadenza...

Marco.
Funny how peoples advice differs, I posted on stereonet also for advice for a cartridge with the series iii and a few people recommended the mp300 or mp500, now I'm totally fooking confused

[British high fidelity]

Sometimes I hate this passion, for me I don't want to waste money and to me 400 quid is a lot for a cartridge that MAY be OK, if it was 1000 quid for something epic that pairs perfect with the SME series iii then I have no problem what so ever with spending the money

[Marco]

Lol... We can only give you an opinion, based on our relevant experience. TBH, Deano, and you can take this as a given from someone who knows (and I've no idea why no-one else has told you already), you're biggest problem is the SME III, which really doesn't match very well with many of today's cartridges.

It was a somewhat one off' piece of obscurity from SME, and designed SOLELY to be used with high-compliance MM cartridges from the 70s, such as those from ADC, Shure and Goldring (amongst others). There's no way in this world that it would take any kind of quality moving coil, so you'd be completely throwing your money down the pan buying a Cadenza Black!!

I'm simply being honest with you, and trying to save your money. Are you really seriously attached to the SME III? If not, I'd be buying a new arm first before anything else, and then choosing a cartridge to go with it.

In case I've missed it, remind me of what your T/T is again, and the rest of your system. Then I'll offer my advice as to what I think you should buy :)

Marco.

[RobbieGong]

There you go Deano, I hadn't acknowledged the arm and don't know anything about it anyway. As Marco does then yeah, hear what he's sayin cause arm and cart matching has it's place and once Marco 'Richard Dickinson' pops in, thats it :lol:

[Marco]

:lolsign:

Seriously though, proper arm and cartridge matching is absolutely critical to achieving top-notch sounds with vinyl. You can't just shove anything in with anything, and hope by some miracle it will work!

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Lol... We can only give you an opinion, based on our relevant experience. TBH, Deano, and you can take this as a given from someone who knows (and I've no idea why no-one else has told you already), you're biggest problem is the SME III, which really doesn't match very well with many of today's cartridges.

It was somewhat of a 'one off' piece of obscurity from SME, and designed SOLELY to be used with high-compliance MM cartridges from the 70s, such as those from ADC, Shure and Goldring (amongst others). There's no way in this world that it would take any kind of quality moving coil, so you'd be completely throwing your money down the pan buying a Cadenza Black!

I'm simply being honest with you, and trying to save your money. Are you really seriously attached to the SME III? If not, I'd be buying a new arm first before anything else, and then choosing a cartridge to go with it.

In case I've missed it, remind me of what your T/T is again, and the rest of your system. Then I'll offer my advice as to what I think you should buy :)

Marco.
Thanks brother appreciate your honesty, system comprises of

Thorens TD125 mk2 upgrade internal components pots, caps wiring etc,

Krell Ksa50s
Prometheus TVC SE passive pre
AE1 Classics
Graham Slee phonostage
Audiowind modified phonostage
Rotel RQ970BX phonostage

Also have a Luxman PD282 original tonearm

I was thinking of upgrading the SME series iii to the nz made wand tonearm, a friend raves about them

Cheers

[RobbieGong]

Thanks brother appreciate your honesty, system comprises of

Thorens TD125 mk2 upgrade internal components pots, caps wiring etc,

Krell Ksa50s
Prometheus TVC SE passive pre
AE1 Classics
Graham Slee phonostage
Audiowind modified phonostage
Rotel RQ970BX phonostage

Also have a Luxman PD282 original tonearm

I was thinking of upgrading the SME series iii to the nz made wand tonearm, a friend raves about them

Cheers

The wand is said to be an excellent arm and would work 'properly ' with any of those carts you're curious about

[British high fidelity]

Yeah a friend of mine has gone mad over them, he has one on 2 of his modified AR's and his pink tri anniversary decks and from what I have heard (sound wise) they are remarkable

[Marco]

Ok.... Now you've got a nice TD-125, which having owned one in the past, I know rather well. Thing is, SME arms really suit Thorens T/Ts, and so there is real synergy between both items - and one it would be a shame to upset.

The problem is, you've got a vintage T/T and arm, and are trying to incorporate it into a fairly modern system, by fitting cartridges to the T/T/arm, which were never designed to be used with it...

Therefore, if it were my money and system, I'd either obtain a nice second-hand SME 3009 (the non-fixed headshell version), which will certainly take most MM cartridges and some MCs. It's also a vintage arm, but a rather more versatile one than the Series III.

Either that, or I'd buy a new SME Series M2R, which will take any cartridge you like, including both the Ortofons in question (if you're intent on going for one of those), and most probably be a superb match, as either SME arm would successfully ameliorate the inherent sterility or the Ortofons, creating what I suspect would be a rather nice balance of virtues (Ying/Yang, if you like).

As much as I rate the Wand, I don't think it's ideally suited to a TD-125, and besides the Thorens/SME synergy is very much worth preserving! :cool:

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Thanks Marco if I did stay with the synergy of the TD125 and the series iii what cartridge would you recommend

[British high fidelity]

Bear in mind I love the sound already of this setup, BUT I do feel there is something little missing, I have a ortofon vms10e and a 2m red which actually both sound very similar, but as I said something is missing

[Marco]

Thanks Marco if I did stay with the synergy of the TD125 and the series iii what cartridge would you recommend

Then you need something high-compliance, such as a vintage ADC, or the like. Speak to Geoff (Walpurgis), as he's an expert on those. Either that or something like a Shure V15 Type III. Trouble is, none of these cartridges are made anymore, so you'll need to trawl through ebay for good NOS examples.

Marco.

[Marco]

Here you go. This is what your SME III was made for:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shure-V-15-mk3-boxed-original/272109949474?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3D5d7e5ff74738463fb4b ce88ba6d8e9cd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26 sd%3D351628024277

:cool:

Trust me, that will work WAY better in your arm than an Ortofon 2M Black or Cadenza, and produce some lovely sounds.

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Hi Deano. Does your SME III arm have the fluid damper option fitted? That makes a big difference to your cartridges options.

[British high fidelity]

OK let the hunt begin for either cartridge or 3009 arm, grazie mille

[Marco]

Certo, non c'e problema! That V-15 MKIII I linked to, though, would be perfect for your 'III' :)

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Yeah just saw one on eBay with brand new sealed stylus
Not sure if that's a good price though

http://m.ebay.com/itm/161952464035

[British high fidelity]

Hi Deano. Does your SME III arm have the fluid damper option fitted? That makes a big difference to your cartridges options.
Hi mate yes it does have the fluid damper

[Marco]

Yeah just saw one on eBay with brand new sealed stylus
Not sure if that's a good price though

http://m.ebay.com/itm/161952464035

Well, it's certainly cheap compared with a Cadenza Black! :eek: :doh: ;)

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Yeah no merda, hey can we swear if it's in Italian

[Marco]

Hehehe.... :eyebrows:

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Geoff, what ADC cart should I be looking at

[walpurgis]

Hi mate yes it does have the fluid damper

Then you could consider something a bit different that should meet your budget. How about a Dynavector DV10x5 high output MC. It will work fine with your phono stages and function perfectly in the SME with a little fluid damping to match the lower compliance.

Dynavectors are always very musical and offer a good sound at their price points.

A review from 'Stereophile': http://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/947/#UZuX8Tt5MGMg20fd.97

[British high fidelity]

OK cool, I'm a little confused over the whole fluid damper thingy.. ( that's the technical name) I'm confused as to what oil to use

[walpurgis]

Geoff, what ADC cart should I be looking at

If you want to look for an ADC to suit the SME, then I'd suggest the XLM III or 10E Mk.IV. Either will be fine with the arm and sound excellent. The problem is finding one in good order with a genuine ADC stylus.

(the 10E Mk.IV is the one on the far left and far right of my avatar)

[Marco]

Yup, for a modern cart, the DV10x5 is a good call. It's about the only MC I'd put on a Series III. It would be a very different sound, though, to the Shure or an ADC!

Marco.

[walpurgis]

OK cool, I'm a little confused over the whole fluid damper thingy.. ( that's the technical name) I'm confused as to what oil to use

Suitable silicone fluid is available from several suppliers including SME of course, who can advise on viscosity.

I use the fluid the damping facility my low mass arm offers with my low output MC cartridges. It works very well.

[British high fidelity]

Different sound as in, clinical or coloured?

[British high fidelity]

Sorry for asking so many questions

[British high fidelity]

Suitable silicone fluid is available from several suppliers including SME of course, who can advise on viscosity.

I use the fluid the damping facility my low mass arm offers with my low output MC cartridges. It works very well.
Thanks

[Marco]

Lol - no worries, but that's not a quick one to answer... Essentially, you're talking about the intrinsic sonic differences between good MM and MC cartridges - both just do different things! :)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Different sound as in, clinical or coloured?

Neither. It just has the moving coil character. A slight warmth and sweetness and fine midrange depth, although the ADCs are not bad at that either.

[British high fidelity]

Soooooo lol, which one would you choose Geoff, Marco

[British high fidelity]

Also I listen to almost all genres, but mostly floyd, dire straits, Dobbie brothers etc

[Marco]

I presume you mean Doobie Brothers, not Debbie, unless she was the groupie? ;)

Me? I'd go for the Shure V-15 MKIII I linked to earlier, or the one with the Jico stylus. I don't know enough about ADCs, sonically, to offer a meaningful recommendation. However, for me, vintage arms should be fitted with the cartridges that they were originally designed to be used with...

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Soooooo lol, which one would you choose Geoff, Marco

Ah. There's the question.

At that sort of money, to use in a damped SME III, there's only one cartridge I'd buy. The ZYX R50 Bloom H. But that would require a good MC phono stage input or an SUT (transformer), which would add to the cost.

But of the previous options mentioned. I'd definitely opt for the Dynavector. But don't forget, that's just my choice. Doesn't mean it has to be yours.

[Marco]

At that sort of money, to use in a damped SME III, there's only one cartridge I'd buy. The ZYX R50 Bloom H.

Eh! Where did that one come from? :scratch:

Personally, I wouldn't put any low-output MC near a Series III. The Dynavector, yes, but that's high-output, and with different electrical characteristics. For me, it's got to be either the latter, or a NOS vintage Shure or ADC.

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Eh! Where did that one come from? :scratch:

Personally, I wouldn't put any low-output MC near a Series III. The Dynavector, yes, but that's high-output, and with different electrical characteristics. For me, it's got to be either the latter of a NOS vintage Shure or ADC.

Marco.

It hadn't been mentioned. But that would be my personal choice. With fluid damping it would be fine in the SME III. My R50 works perfectly in the damped Mission 774, which has even less mass.

[British high fidelity]

Well said agreed, by the way I did edit the names, damn predictive text

[British high fidelity]

What the hell where did the zyx come from, are you guys on the sauce AGAIN

[Marco]

It hadn't been mentioned. But that would be my personal choice. With fluid damping it would be fine in the SME III. My R50 works perfectly in the damped Mission 774, which has even less mass.

Yes, but the 774 is known for being virtually 'cartridge agnostic'. The SME is a totally different kettle of fish. I guess the only way to be certain would be to listen to both. I'd still be dropping the Shure in there, however, if it were my money, as I *know* it would work :)

Thorens TD-125/SME/Shure - classic combo!

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Just when I think I'm very close to a solution, someone Not mentioning names (Geoff) throws a spanner on the works rofl

[walpurgis]

What the hell where did the zyx come from, are you guys on the sauce AGAIN

I was pointing out what I'd be looking at personally. Not throwing a curveball in. I'm not suggesting that as an option. ;)

[British high fidelity]

I know brother just fooling around with you 😀

[walpurgis]

I know brother just fooling around with you ��

Bad Deano! :lol:

[British high fidelity]

I'm sorwey

[British high fidelity]

OK so here's the plan after excellent sometimes confusing advice lol, I'm gonna go with the shure and then if not convince I will go for the dynavector, thank you so so much for all the advice brothers

[Marco]

In all seriousness, Deano, the combination of an SME 3009/Shure V-15 MKIII was made for your turntable.

If in the first place you were seriously considering getting an Ortofon Cadenza Black, then you could easily obtain both of the above (in minty NOS condition) for a damn sight less than the former new, and trust me, you'd be blown away by the results! ;)

However, if you were going to get a 3009 for the Shure, I'd go for the 'improved' fixed headshell version, as it would work better with that particular cartridge.

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Agreed I'm going to get the shure cartridge first then if not completely satisfied, will add the 3009 into the equation, did want to ask what difference the fixed/non fixed headshell makes

[Marco]

One less mechanical connection is technically better, and with a high-compliance cartridge, such as the Shure, you won't need to be messing around with heavier detachable headshells. That was the reasoning :)

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

OK perfect thanks

[Marco]

Quality! :thumbsup:

:goodnight:

Marco.

[helma]

It seems maybe this was already settled, but I'll throw one more rather cheap option out there just for added confusion :)

If you already have the Ortofon VMS10 and like the basic sound of it, a VMS20 or VMS30 stylus might be worth looking into. They're getting a bit rare but maybe some vendors still stock them (thakker seems to have the vms20e for about 150e a piece, you might find cheaper though), and you can even fit a M20E, which is readily available for about 80 euros and very close to VMS20 in performance, though the caveat with that one is it's not a direct fit but needs some plastic surgery to seat fully. Technically it works perfect after that is done.

VMS20 & 30 (and the M20E) are all rather higher compliance than the VMS10, so they should work well with the SME III. Compared to the VMS10 they both have the basic similar sound, what they bring in is a lot more resolution and lift that certain overall 'thickness' the VMS10 tends to have in the midrange, giving a more open sound. Analytical I'd call them not, they lean on the warm side of things, but without resorting to plumminess or humpy bass. Think more like a bit of buttery sweet in the mids and silky smooth in the highs, while bass is rather taut but extends deep. They track at 1.0g (VMS20) and 1.25g (VMS30)

VMS20 would roughly equal 2M Blue in the present range of Ortofon MMs and 30Fl would be the equilavent of 2M Bronze - that is as far the diamonds go, in sound they don't probably sound much like the current 2Ms, though I haven't owned those.

[jandl100]

Yay.
Good to see you steered in a sensible direction by the AOS Team. :thumbsup:

But .... a phonostage upgrade really would reap big benefits. (Or did I miss that being addresses in the thread?)
I'd consider adding a NCPSU (Never Connected) to the Dino - simply a massive upgrade and turns what I consider to be a mid-fi 'stage into something quite special.
Having been saved from wasting loadsadosh on an expensive MC cart, you can afford it! ;)

[British high fidelity]

It seems maybe this was already settled, but I'll throw one more rather cheap option out there just for added confusion :)

If you already have the Ortofon VMS10 and like the basic sound of it, a VMS20 or VMS30 stylus might be worth looking into. They're getting a bit rare but maybe some vendors still stock them (thakker seems to have the vms20e for about 150e a piece, you might find cheaper though), and you can even fit a M20E, which is readily available for about 80 euros and very close to VMS20 in performance, though the caveat with that one is it's not a direct fit but needs some plastic surgery to seat fully. Technically it works perfect after that is done.

VMS20 & 30 (and the M20E) are all rather higher compliance than the VMS10, so they should work well with the SME III. Compared to the VMS10 they both have the basic similar sound, what they bring in is a lot more resolution and lift that certain overall 'thickness' the VMS10 tends to have in the midrange, giving a more open sound. Analytical I'd call them not, they lean on the warm side of things, but without resorting to plumminess or humpy bass. Think more like a bit of buttery sweet in the mids and silky smooth in the highs, while bass is rather taut but extends deep. They track at 1.0g (VMS20) and 1.25g (VMS30)

VMS20 would roughly equal 2M Blue in the present range of Ortofon MMs and 30Fl would be the equilavent of 2M Bronze - that is as far the diamonds go, in sound they don't probably sound much like the current 2Ms, though I haven't owned those.
Hi Helma thanks for the advice a friend of mine has a NOS A&R P77, just to throw another cart into the mix, any views on this cartridge and whether it would do the SME series iii justice, he said I can have it cheap, like drinking money cheap [emoji6]

[British high fidelity]

Yay.
Good to see you steered in a sensible direction by the AOS Team. [emoji106]

But .... a phonostage upgrade really would reap big benefits. (Or did I miss that being addresses in the thread?)
I'd consider adding a NCPSU (Never Connected) to the Dino - simply a massive upgrade and turns what I consider to be a mid-fi 'stage into something quite special.
Having been saved from wasting loadsadosh on an expensive MC cart, you can afford it! ;)
Hi Jandl100, the issue we think is not the phonostage as the missing link seems to be noticed on all phonostages, definitely feel that the cartridge/arm combination is the problem, but thanks for the advice

[jandl100]

Trust me, the phonostage will be a real bottleneck for your new fab system ;)

[Marco]

Hi Helma thanks for the advice a friend of mine has a NOS A&R P77, just to throw another cart into the mix, any views on this cartridge and whether it would do the SME series iii justice, he said I can have it cheap, like drinking money cheap [emoji6]

It's a decent budget cartridge, but a bit dull. I'd certainly buy it (since it's so cheap) and keep it as a spare. However, you need to aim a bit higher for your main cartridge. Stick to the plan with the Shure :)

Marco.

[British high fidelity]

Thanks again 👍

[KONDO]

hi,surely the phono stage must be taken in to the equation as well,the Dino with NC supply is a giant,and heard the dynavector a lot that would be my choice, yours charlie

[Arkless Electronics]

I'll second the recommendation of the Ortofon VMS30 as a damn good MM cartridge (much better than any Shure IMHO) and it also works really well in the SME III. A friend used this combo on an LP12 back in the day and it was very good. Generally though, I am not a fan of the SME III. It can be used with MC's and was designed to be able to match any cartridge compliance by means of extra lead weights which were fitted under the headshell and extra counter weights for the back end. I had one and flogged it as I was so underwhelmed by it in general.... (as I did with my SME II for the same reason) as I say it does seem to work really well with the VMS30 though.

As for the phono stage well I'm going to be cheeky and recommend the one I make! It will beat the Dino, even with NCPS, and costs only £185 plus a donor Cambridge 640P stage at about £60. The list of rival phono stages which customers say have been shown a clean pair of heels by the Arkless 640P is a long one and includes units at £1K!!

[Marco]

I'll second the recommendation of the Ortofon VMS30 as a damn good MM cartridge (much better than any Shure IMHO) and it also works really well in the SME III.

Now, that's a good shout, and there we're in agreement. However, there's a BIG difference in how modern Ortofons sound (MMs or MCs), compared with vintage ones, such as the VMS30, which is blatantly obvious when conducting some relevant comparisons.

I just don't like how the 'voicing' of cartridges has evolved in recent years, and Ortofon and Audio Technica are particularly guilty of moving towards a rather 'spotlit' and clinical 'hi-fi sound' that for me has been achieved at the expense of the natural 'warmth' (for want of a better word) and 'musicality' of older designs, which IMO produce a more lifelike facsimile of real instruments and voices..

That's why, when it comes to cartridges, I'm mainly a Denon man, as they haven't 'sold out', in that respect... Or should that be 'souled out'...? ;)

As for Shures, well I'm no fanboy, *but* some combinations in hi-fi just work [the old synergy thing], and that's very much the case with a Thorens TD-125/SME 3009/Shure V-15 TypeIII.

Turntables, as ever, are about what's achieved by the SUM of their constituent parts, rather than just the influence of any individual one, such as the cartridge. Therefore, one has to think of them as behaving as a 'system' :)

Marco.

[ellensdad]

Speaking of vintage Ortofon, I just picked up an M20FL Super. This cartridge presents detail in such a natural way. Very extended and clean highs. The midrange is rich & smooth with great weight but very textured and dynamic. Deep bass and a HUGE soundstage. I honestly can't get over how good it is. Not good for the money good, just plain good.