View Full Version : UK Law: Householders can use 'disproportionate' level of force against intruders
StanleyB
16-01-2016, 10:34
Householders can use a disproportionate level of force against an intruder in their homes if they reasonably believe it is necessary, the high court has ruled.
Judges ruled that the “householder defence”, which relieves people of the responsibility of making fine judgments about proportionality in the heat of the moment, so long as it is necessary, was compatible with European human rights laws.
In a ruling handed down on Friday, they rejected a challenge brought by the family of a man who was left in a coma after allegedly intruding in a home in the early hours of the morning in December 2013.
Now, this is a very important ruling, which is why I have mentioned it here. I am still debating if a baseball bat or a cricket bat would be considered a disproportionate weapon :scratch:.
Agree if someone breaks in then getting walloped with a bat or frying pan etc it deserved. Think the rights of the felon got a little strong, and if he wants the same rights as normal folk he or she should refrain from burglary, which imo is on of the lowest crimes when against a persons house
walpurgis
16-01-2016, 10:39
That's interesting Stan. I keep a selection of suitable items strategically hidden around the home for just such eventualities. It's that kind of area.
Tom-Brown
16-01-2016, 12:15
That is all well and good!! from experience (long past career :) ) Whatever you do, you must do it face to face!! If you injure an intruder from behind or whilst they are moving away from you - then you will face a prosecution :( :( No court will help as they will deem there cannot be any "Threat" if the intruder is moving or facing away from you when you whallop him/her :) :)
Surely they're a 'threat' if they're in your house uninvited?
Tom-Brown
16-01-2016, 12:30
Surely they're a 'threat' if they're in your house uninvited?
NO..not quite that simple - no one can threaten you if they are facing/running away from you....You wouldn't believe the excuses that some burglars have gotten away with!!! "I was drunk and thought it was my mates house!!" etc the list go's on but that's from a cynical ex-bobby :) :)
awkwardbydesign
16-01-2016, 12:39
And I'm not sure that you can justify keeping a baseball bat by the bed or behind the door. Unless you have a ball and pads with it! Seriously. Hopefully someone can clarify that. On a hifi forum, naturally.
Tom-Brown
16-01-2016, 12:43
And I'm not sure that you can justify keeping a baseball bat by the bed or behind the door. Unless you have a ball and pads with it! Seriously. Hopefully someone can clarify that. On a hifi forum, naturally.
Not really a problem in your own home :) :) You only have to justify such things if you are in public !! the same applies to carrying such things in a vehicle on the public highway - you must be able to justify your reasons for carrying such things :( :(
If you kill them and carefully dispose of the body you won't have to answer any difficult questions.
Tom-Brown
16-01-2016, 12:56
If you kill them and carefully dispose of the body you won't have to answer any difficult questions.
You won't have to dispose of the body and there is no one to argue why they were in your house..............just make sure you do it face to face :eek: :eek:
Just dont dig up my concrete floors or my garden while im alive ;)
British high fidelity
16-01-2016, 14:56
Would have to smack them face on, so to make sure I can catch my turntable as they fall
walpurgis
16-01-2016, 16:06
If you kill them and carefully dispose of the body you won't have to answer any difficult questions.
Exactly! And I know plenty of good ways of disposing of such items.
:eyebrows: ;)
As far as I'm concerned, any fucker caught inside your house, uninvited, who's presence there is quite clearly for malicious intent, deserves ALL he or she gets. The fact is, they shouldn't be there in the first place!!
Like Geoff, I have some 'nice wee toys' waiting for anyone who might try that here. Quite simply, they wouldn't get back out again..... :trust:
Marco.
British high fidelity
17-01-2016, 00:59
That's mafioso speak, are you sure your not sicilian
I wouldn't want to kill them out right, I'd make them do all the dishes and clean the toilet and the tub first.
Then shoot them.
Seems fair enough. You've got to recoup the cost of the ammunition, after all.
It is, and always has been, a grey area legally. The law states that you are entitled to use proportionate force to protect your life/family/property, but it is acknowledged that in the presence of an actual threat, it is difficult to know what constitutes 'proportionate force'. Increasingly, the courts are giving householders the benefit of the doubt, but much depends on the individual case, so probably still not OK to shoot a single, unarmed intruder in the back with an illegally held shotgun.
have 2 illegally held shotguns and one can magically become the dead man's weapon. Bingo! - you used proportional force.
You'll probably get slung over the firearm offence.
I have a nice long baton hanging on my bed post, designed nothing more than a weapon of attack/defence and I have to have no justification for having it there on private property. It's what I do with it which requires justification?
If I went into HMV swinging it around, then that would cause me problems, swinging it around at home, no problem. I can swing it at an intruder using as much force as is reasonable in the circumstances and if I fear for my own life and kill them and can convince a judge/jury of that, no problem with that either ;)
If it is weapon and designed as such and used as such then you might have a problem, even in your own home.
A baseball bat or golf club would be better as these are items with another purpose that could easily be 'lying around' a home and could be grabbed in desperation.
In any case I imagine the chance of a burglar breaking in whilst you are at home and wanting to make a fight of it are pretty slim. Has anyone here actually had this happen to them, or know someone who has?
In any case I imagine the chance of a burglar breaking in whilst you are at home and wanting to make a fight of it are pretty slim. Has anyone here actually had this happen to them, or know someone who has?
Nope. There's plenty of 'fighting talk' on here, but it's all based on you getting the jump on the intruders, which is unlikely to happen. They tend to break in while you're out/away, or they're in and out without you realising.
I don't think I would have anything worth stealing. No cash or jewellery, nothing of real worth in the place except the hi-fi equipment and none of that is particularly valuable. The only thing I would struggle to replace would be the vinyl. I've known a few people who have had their hi-fi nicked - or bits of it - but never their records.
I don't think I would have anything worth stealing. No cash or jewellery, nothing of real worth in the place except the hi-fi equipment and none of that is particularly valuable. The only thing I would struggle to replace would be the vinyl. I've known a few people who have had their hi-fi nicked - or bits of it - but never their records.
The only break-in we've had was a wash-out from the burglar's point of view. He got away with a tenner and a knackered laptop that I was all set to throw away. Unfortunately it happened just before we were due to go away for a week, but we cancelled that on the advice of the police, who told us that the first break-in was probably just for recce purposes.
Im fairly safe then. Im almost always in lol. A police inspector i used to know got burgled when he and his family were in. Very embarrassing for him.....and painful for the criminal ....eventually.
He even saw the guy...haha!
It was a sort of open party or something if i remember and he didnt recognise him but thought he had been on his wifes side...she thought the same and the guy nicked away in peace.;)
When you think about it robbery must be one of the hardest games in the world. Find a house, hope no-one is in, find way to break in, find something worth nicking - then you've got to sell it on. Back in the day when easy to carry stuff like microwaves, hoovers and video recorders cost a bomb I suppose there was a ready market. Not any more.
If it is weapon and designed as such and used as such then you might have a problem, even in your own home.
As long as it's not prohibited, then no problem Martin and it's not prohibited. You can have a Samurai sword at home (as long as it complies with the new law) and that is nothing other than a weapon, is it not?
As I said before it's what you do with it which requires justification, not it's mere possession, assuming it's legal to posses in the first place?
For example if I were (in my own home) to lop the head off an intruder with said Samurai sword, I have no doubt I would end up in court on a manslaughter charge. What I would need to prove is that the amount of force I used 'was reasonable in the circumstances' and for that I would need to convince the court I feared for my life or the life of another, my family for example?
It's self defence law and is available as a defence to crimes committed by use of force "A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."
That is the very same law our police use if they should take a life with a firearm and it applies to us all.
When you think about it robbery must be one of the hardest games in the world. Find a house, hope no-one is in, find way to break in, find something worth nicking - then you've got to sell it on. Back in the day when easy to carry stuff like microwaves, hoovers and video recorders cost a bomb I suppose there was a ready market. Not any more.
Indeed. I guess the professional tea leaves concentrate on posh houses where's there's known to be, or likely to be, lots of jewellery, fancy watches and other portable but valuable stuff lying about the place. At the lower end of the market it's druggies breaking into lots of places taking whatever they can, and hoping to strike lucky. My late aunt kept an old handbag in her wardrobe with hundreds of pounds in it, though luckily she never had a break-in.
Tim - My point was that you could have the Samurai sword as a decoration or a collector's piece. Your cosh is just a cosh and can only be for one purpose. So although you might well not be prosecuted/convicted you are on dodgier ground to begin with.
The Danby case that sparked this off is interesting. I can't find any mention of what happend beyond he was beaten into a coma in someone else's house, then nicked. No mention of weapons being involved.
Indeed. I guess the professional tea leaves concentrate on posh houses where's there's known to be, or likely to be, lots of jewellery, fancy watches and other portable but valuable stuff lying about the place. At the lower end of the market it's druggies breaking into lots of places taking whatever they can, and hoping to strike lucky. My late aunt kept an old handbag in her wardrobe with hundreds of pounds in it, though luckily she never had a break-in.
Yep I had an aunt who always had a few hundred stashed in the sideboard. I suppose back when you got your wages weekly in cash you had to put it somewhere and it wasn't easy, or customary for poorer folk to have a bank account back then.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point Martin, if it's legal to posses it no matter what it it is, then it's legal to possess it. It matter's not what it is if you should use it as a weapon, it's the circumstances of it's use that require justification. Different matter in the street, as why would you have it there, but at home, not so.
Yep I had an aunt who always had a few hundred stashed in the sideboard. I suppose back when you got your wages weekly in cash you had to put it somewhere and it wasn't easy, or customary for poorer folk to have a bank account back then.
in my aunt's case, it was more a matter of evading the taxman; she ran a small business, and made a lot of 'off-book' payments. (If HMRC are reading this, she died about 20 years ago).
Much of the stuff in your house is potentially a weapon if you were to take it out of the home environ... Like a bread knife or the roasting fork. If you grab it and skewer a guy in a burglary then fine as long as its not in the back...except in Texas where you get a bounty.
Get found with one in your car and yous have some explaining to do
walpurgis
17-01-2016, 11:47
I guess the professional tea leaves concentrate on posh houses where's there's known to be, or likely to be, lots of jewellery, fancy watches and other portable but valuable stuff lying about the place.
Far from it. The majority of break-ins occur on run down housing estates, where people have too little money to afford decent security.
That's not to say wealthier areas and properties don't get targeted though.
archiesdad
17-01-2016, 12:23
Honest M'Lord I was defending myself but as I attempted to persuade the intruder to leave he slipped and so the blow landed on the back of his head, 27 times, bad luck I suppose.
We have a baseball bat in the house(along with a ball and mitt) and a couple of pool/snooker cues, that is if they get past the dog.
13 burglary myths
Although homeowners may be taking the necessary preventive measures to protect their homes from criminals, most are unaware of the myths related to burglaries, which turn their measures to useless methods. When you know the facts, you can make sure that you can best protect yourself against a break in!
Myth 1: As it is often depicted in the movies, cartoons or video games, some people picture a sly black-clad burglar breaking a side or rear window and hopping into the home. Others envision thieves using complicated tools to pry open the garage door or finding a way into the basement.
Despite common perception, doors are actually the most common means of entry. 73% of burglars use doors, which are open in 3% of cases. It is even more surprising that burglars choose the front door over any other home door. In fact, 64% of householders also confessed to occasionally leaving doors unlocked whilst away from home and a further 37% whilst inside the home – even though statistics show that 22% of burglaries are carried out with the thief aware that the home was occupied.
Myth 2: Burglars tend to prey for appliances and firearms being the most valuable items in a home.
Contrary to belief, burglars are clever enough to target the most valuable yet easiest to transport items rather than behemoths appliances. According to Infographics for 2009-2011, most stolen items are cash-17%, computers-15%, cameras and mp3s-13%, jewelry-11%, mobile phones-6%. Besides, the ONS has provided figures for 2012-2013, which state that burglars nowadays tend to prey for mobile phones during robberies rather than wallets and cash, which are represented by 43%, 38% and 37% respectively.
Myth 3: Of course, criminals would rather stay camouflaged in the dark and use this as a cover to avoid being caught. In fact, 56% of burglaries happen at night. It is true that most burglaries take place after dark: 10% occur in the morning, 20% in the afternoon, 32% in the evening and 23% during the night, whereas 30% occur in the weekend. So, the majority automatically believes that break-ins ONLY occur at night.
Actually, burglars simply access homes when no one is around to hamper their activities and do not have to be confronted by homeowners. Hence, they also visit during the day while people are at work and school… or away on vacation.
Myth 4: Most homeowners believe that a home break-in is very unlikely.
Burglars do their jobs as earnestly as any employed citizen. They watch for consistent patterns, such as when a homeowner leaves for work or gets home from work and gets into action when they know the home is vacant. Burglars can disguise themselves as service workers during the day so home owners are mostly burgled out of the blue as they least expect it.
Myth 5: Burglars spend a lot of time breaking into homes
Burglars are opportunists who choose homes that are easy targets: Homes without any apparent security system or sign, homes of people who work fulltime and homes with poorly secured entry points. In many situations, a burglar can breach a poorly secured door in only 10 seconds. It usually takes 20 minutes or more for the police to show up in response. Meanwhile, the burglar is in and out in 8 minutes without ever having to cross paths with the absent homeowner.
Myth 6: Home security systems do not discourage burglars at all, especially if you live in an area with low crime rate.
9 out of 10 burglars move along when they cannot get past the home’s security. Even if you live in a relatively safe neighbourhood, ensure your house is equipped with the necessary security barriers including Shutters, Grilles and Gates.
Myth 7: Leaving lights on each time you leave the house makes burglars think someone is at home.
This is actually an invitation to clever burglars. The latter get to know your neighbourhood and your schedule. A light that stays on too long in one place is a signal that you’ll be gone for a while. It’s better to have lights go on and off in different parts of the house on a random schedule with the help of Electronic timers.
Myth 8: Having an alarm sign or stickers will deter burglars from entering.
It may definitely help you feel secure, but it can also tell a burglar what alarm company you’re using. Burglars can figure out how to circumvent your system by easily purchasing plans to different branded systems. It’s better to use a generic sign, because a burglar cannot be sure exactly what system you’re using.
Myth 9: A big dog will keep out unwanted intruders.
A dog’s bark is the real deterrent. Small dogs, such as such as a Chihuahua or a Schipperke, do a good job of barking when someone enters your property. Large dogs, unless they are trained, usually don’t bark much — which is great if you want to get some sleep, but it’s as good as a scarecrow for scaring off burglars.
Myth 10: Locking your house is enough to keep burglars at bay.
Like all houses and doors are not the same, not all locks are the same. Ordinary pin tumbler locks are riskier to use because thieves can open them with bump keys. Indeed, burglars are rather skilled at Lock Bumping – Is your premises secure?
Myth 11: Keeping valuables in ‘secret hiding places’ is effective.
It’s best if you put valuable jewelry and documents off premises in a safe deposit box or a secure safe. Most people tend to hide valuables in their bedroom in standard hiding places such as the underwear drawer, under the mattress and closet shelves but these are the first places burglars look. It’s better to scatter your valuables in more than one place, and to hide them in unusual places, such as the freezer, or in a cereal box in the cupboard.
Myth 12: Thorny bushes in front of windows impede intruders
Many homeowners keep thorny bushes in front of windows keep burglars out. However, professional burglars usually wear gloves and two layers of clothing, while carrying cutters or similar equipment. Some thorns are not going to deter a determined burglar. Instead, be sure you keep those plants trimmed below the sills so they can’t easily conceal a burglar.
Myth 13: Cutting off mail and newspaper delivery while on vacation is smart
Actually, stopping newspaper and mail delivery is a hint that you are away. It’s better to have trusted friends and neighbours checking on your house, picking up the mail and newspapers for you and making the house look occupied.
Good post Grant and as you have highlighted, most domestic burglaries happen during the afternoon when people are out, burglars tend to be lazy and don't get up early, hence afternoons! Commercial burglaries during the night, often early hours.
With point #7 LED fake TV's are brilliant, as long as you position them correctly.
.
With point #7 LED fake TV's are brilliant, as long as you position them correctly.
Some years ago I posted the idea of leaving out a 'sacrificial' vacuum cleaner on the basis that Johnny Smackhead would just take that and leave the rest of the house alone. I see technology has advanced ;)
Interesting post Grant but obviously written for the American market. In particular this bit:
'It usually takes 20 minutes or more for the police to show up in response.'
should read for the UK: 'It usually takes 2 hours or more for you to realise that the police are not going to show up in response. '
Some years ago I posted the idea of leaving out a 'sacrificial' vacuum cleaner on the basis that Johnny Smackhead would just take that and leave the rest of the house alone.
Ah, I see now Martin, your vacuum cleaner got nicked years ago - maybe it's time to get another one and have a tidy up :lol:
I'm past tidying up. I'm at the 'knocking down and rebuilding' stage ;)
Some years ago I posted the idea of leaving out a 'sacrificial' vacuum cleaner on the basis that Johnny Smackhead would just take that and leave the rest of the house alone. I see technology has advanced ;)
Interesting post Grant but obviously written for the American market. In particular this bit:
'It usually takes 20 minutes or more for the police to show up in response.'
should read for the UK: 'It usually takes 2 hours or more for you to realise that the police are not going to show up in response. '
Lol...no it was uk...last year 2015.
Techno Commander
18-01-2016, 00:30
'It usually takes 20 minutes or more for the police to show up in response.'
When you are on the phone and get that response, a reply along the lines of "f*** it, I'm going to get my shotgun", will considerably improve the Police response time. :)
Old George
19-01-2016, 12:19
Myth 2: Burglars tend to prey for appliances and firearms being the most valuable items in a home.
Maybe in the US, there are more guns than people in the states. We have less than 2 million legally-owned guns in the UK, and unlike the US we have strict storage rules.
Gun cabinets must be secured to walls, and ammo has to have separate storage.
Many years ago, a senior GMP firearms officer made it clear what the police approach is concerning a firearms incident. They have to anticipate the worse-case scenario.
1: It has to be assumed the firearm is real.
2: It is assumed the firearm is loaded.
3: It is assumed the person carrying the gun WILL use it.
The clear logic behind this is that the officers involved in an incident, and any members of the public remain safe.
Now based on the above, i have to assume the worse-case scenario should i (and my wife) be unfortunate enough to be at home when an intruder enters my home.
1: I will assume the intruder is a potential murderer or rapist
2: I will take whatever action is needed to protect my wife and myself.
3: If need be i'd rather be judged by twelve of my peers than be carried away by six.
Interesting that if you are also a firearms certificate holder and use excessive force, then irrespective of this new ruling, it could call into question suitability to hold firearms (ie even if they are not used in self defence). The ruling isn't actually anything new at all because to be prosecuted for serious injury to an intruder (ie disproportionate force) the prosecution first has to prove intent rather than that in defence of "reasonable force". In the heat of the moment, one could argue that walloping a burglar with a lump of 4x2 was reasonable as you suspected that screw driver in his hand was a lethal weapon he was about to use on you. The fact that it is also viewed as disproportionate after the fact cannot be proved as intent so I'm struggling to see what, if anything, this actually changes in law?:scratch:
so I'm struggling to see what, if anything, this actually changes in law?:scratch:
This specific case sets a precedent in the way that the existing law is interpreted. Essentially it means that in some circumstances you can beat an intruder into a coma and not necessarily be prosecuted for doing so.
If I where a disarmed subject of Great Britain, my weapon of choice would be a cricket bat.
Idea is stopping the attack, nothing stops an attacker faster than blunt force trauma.
A machete would be my second choice, but heavy cloths can minimize how deep you can cut and the attacker covered in deep cuts and blood on drugs still has time to kill you before he passes out of blood loss.
A Cricket bat to the chops, it an effective way to end an attack, and won't be a mess to get out of the carpets. After knocking him out then you can roll his body up in a rug and leave him in the parking lot of a gay bar on the other side of town. Let the police wright the report some place else and keep out of nasty court battles with expensive attorneys fees.
Interesting theory but I have seen a bloke hit around the head with a baseball bat by another bloke who could have played Frankenstein's monster without the need for make-up. The sound it made was sickening but it did not even slow him down.
Some sort of spear or pike would be best - you can keep them at bay with that and once inserted and twisted about a bit the pain should be so bad they pass out.
Speaking hypothetically of course. Neither I nor AoS condone or recommend the impaling of home intruders.
This specific case sets a precedent in the way that the existing law is interpreted. Essentially it means that in some circumstances you can beat an intruder into a coma and not necessarily be prosecuted for doing so.
Understood, but my point was you could do that anyway providing YOU believed that under the circumstances you were taking reasonable steps to protect yourself. It only takes one serious blow to the head to be fatal or induce a coma. What this change seems to suggest is that in such circumstances any complaints by plaintiffs (being burglar scum or their relatives) pressing charges is that now they'll likely not be considered whereas before, they'd have to be tested in court. I may be wrong but that's how I read it. (ie no offence has been committed). Watch out burglars!
Old George
19-01-2016, 19:05
If I where a disarmed subject of Great Britain, my weapon of choice would be a cricket bat.
Idea is stopping the attack, nothing stops an attacker faster than blunt force trauma.
Getting smacked with a 15mm diameter 20 inch stainless steel rod can really bugger a scrotes day up.....trust me on this one.;)
Understood, but my point was you could do that anyway providing YOU believed that under the circumstances you were taking reasonable steps to protect yourself. It only takes one serious blow to the head to be fatal or induce a coma. What this change seems to suggest is that in such circumstances any complaints by plaintiffs (being burglar scum or their relatives) pressing charges is that now they'll likely not be considered whereas before, they'd have to be tested in court. I may be wrong but that's how I read it. (ie no offence has been committed). Watch out burglars!
Exactly right Paul, there isn't really anything new here, just a ruling on a recent interpretation of an existing law, which adds clarity and sensibility.
Everyone reacts differently to this scenario of an intruder, and until it happens you just dont know what you will do. As you get older you also realise your own mortality better(well most of us do). Often having a go is NOT the thing to do
If I where a disarmed subject of Great Britain, my weapon of choice would be a cricket bat.
Idea is stopping the attack, nothing stops an attacker faster than blunt force trauma.
A machete would be my second choice, but heavy cloths can minimize how deep you can cut and the attacker covered in deep cuts and blood on drugs still has time to kill you before he passes out of blood loss.
A Cricket bat to the chops, it an effective way to end an attack, and won't be a mess to get out of the carpets. After knocking him out then you can roll his body up in a rug and leave him in the parking lot of a gay bar on the other side of town. Let the police wright the report some place else and keep out of nasty court battles with expensive attorneys fees.
Why a gay bar particularly? Are they known for not having CCTV or something?
I am guessing all this talk of machetes and dumping the comatose body is an ironic macho posturing joke, right? I could imagine anyone following such advice might end up with a very very long stretch inside.
Haselsh1
24-01-2016, 18:09
If the bastard is facing me I will shoot him, if he is facing away, I won't.
walpurgis
24-01-2016, 18:54
Getting smacked with a 15mm diameter 20 inch stainless steel rod can really bugger a scrotes day up.....trust me on this one.;)
Ah. I have a metre long such item handy. I agree. You certainly wouldn't want a crack with it. Here's a tip, grease the front half slightly. That way it can't be yanked from your hand.
Ninanina
24-01-2016, 19:31
I keep a large Maglite near the front door...... for illuminations of course.. :eek:
walpurgis
24-01-2016, 19:39
Keep one of these just behind the front door!
http://i68.tinypic.com/m7rnyp.jpg
Ninanina
24-01-2016, 19:51
Keep one of these just behind the front door!
http://i68.tinypic.com/m7rnyp.jpg
Now that looks the business... I would have absolutely no qualms about using a "disproportionate level of force against intruders".. it serves them right for intruding in the first place :D
I keep a large Maglite near the front door...... for illuminations of course.. :eek:
...and 'other things' too, when you've run out of cucumbers! :D
;)
Marco.
Ninanina
24-01-2016, 19:56
...and 'other things' too, when you've run out of cucumbers! :D
;)
Marco.
The trick is to NEVER run out of cucumbers :rfl::rfl:
Thanks for that intriguing insight, and remind me never to have a salad at any of your bake-offs!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ninanina
24-01-2016, 20:58
Thanks for that intriguing insight, and remind me never to have a salad at any of your bake-offs!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
You started it ... :eek::eek::D:D
a turnip like a thingy :D
http://celebrityink.eu/image/cache/data/2229F-1000x1000.jpg
walpurgis
24-01-2016, 21:14
Better than having a "thingy" like a turnip! :lol:
better than having a thingy like a fag end too :eyebrows:
Would you like some 'French Dressing' on that sir? :eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
French Dressing is the work of Satan:lol:
Especially if...... No, I won't go there! :D
Marco.
Old George
25-01-2016, 19:42
..........Here's a tip, grease the front half slightly. That way it can't be yanked from your hand.
Duly noted Geoff. Here's another tip, wrap the other end with handlebar tape to improve your grip.;)
Old George
25-01-2016, 19:47
Keep one of these just behind the front door!
http://i68.tinypic.com/m7rnyp.jpg
Aptly named the 'Avenger', and with over 4000 rounds per minute flying out of the business end i'd call it the 'Argument Settler'
walpurgis
25-01-2016, 20:03
Duly noted Geoff. Here's another tip, wrap the other end with handlebar tape to improve your grip.;)
A big elastic band wrapped around several times works just fine for me. ;)
You boys are just getting plain silly now :lol:
walpurgis
25-01-2016, 21:37
Some lateral and radical thinking never goes amiss! ;)
Some lateral and radical thinking never goes amiss! ;)
Indeed.
I'd take the 'scientific approach', in terms of biological research, and so once you've knocked them out, tie them up and put them in a spare room, preferably in a secluded spot, to dilute the screams, then 'operate' on them (using whatever tools are available from the garden shed), seeing how many 'bits' can be removed from their bodies, before the 'test subjects' lose consciousness......
Marco.
Old George
26-01-2016, 11:07
Indeed.
I'd take the 'scientific approach', in terms of biological research, and so once you've knocked them out, tie them up and put them in a spare room, preferably in a secluded spot, to dilute the screams, then 'operate' on them (using whatever tools are available from the garden shed), seeing how many 'bits' can be removed from their bodies, before the 'test subjects' lose consciousness......
Marco.
Ah, reminds me of my student days! :eek:
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