View Full Version : Pre Amp Blues...
Haselsh1
21-10-2009, 14:16
Look, I have no need whatsoever to do this but; for the sake of completion, I am looking at changing my preamp.
At the moment I am using a pair of Audiolab 8000M monoblocks with a Creek OBH-22 passive preamp. I am toying with the idea of replacing the Creek with an Audiolab 8000Q.
Any thoughts...???
I find it a good idea. A preamp is a great component.
As you already have the 8000M blocks, I'm sure that the 8000Q is a very good choice indeed.
If you need some alternative choice, I would advice to listen to the Northstar Line Preamplifier, it is a bit more expensive than the 8000Q (but has balanced ins/outs also).
Nevertheless, before you buy, I would advice you to give a listen to the preamp you choose. ;)
Mick Parry
21-10-2009, 15:27
Haselsh1
Treat yourself to a Naim system and join the legions of thousands of satisfied customers. Naim is the UK's most sucessful company for one simple reason, it is the best.
Regards
Mick
The ORIGINAL 8000Q was a good one IMO and well made with it. There was going to be an optional transformer coupled balanced output option as well, but I don't know if this ever came to fruition. I even thought to change my AVI for one at the time, but they sounded pretty similar and I used the AVI's phono option on mine, so it stayed.
One well made line-only alternative is the ATC CA 2, which seems to hold value well and sounds pretty transparent to the sources fed it.
One more time, I HAVE to urge you to try the baby Croft. For £350, you'll get a good line stage and a magical phono one as well in a cute little box you'll certainly grow to love and get "involved" with, if you see what I mean. The 8000Q is so effective, but it has the personality of a toaster by comparison (I'm not talking about sonic character here either)..
Haselsh1
Treat yourself to a Naim system and join the legions of thousands of satisfied customers. Naim is the UK's most sucessful company for one simple reason, it is the best.
Regards
Mick
Not if you compare the output to the input it aint the best Mick and it's been catalogued how the lower preamp models are/were deliberately crippled to perform and sound less well than the much more expensive models in the range.
You could consider an old 32.5 or 72 with a suitable power supply, but neither of them are as truthful to the source sonics as the 8000Q and none of them have the charm and emotional communication of the Croft - IMO of course...;) They can be readily "improved" though with proper design input and modern third party power-supply thinking. So much has changed in electronics "SS" style since the 1960's.......
Steve Toy
21-10-2009, 15:42
I treat the need to have five preamps in a range with some considerable suspicion.
I treat the need to have five preamps in a range with some considerable suspicion.
BUSINESS my dear chap. Buy cheap and sell as dear as the market will take ;)
Mick Parry
21-10-2009, 15:56
Not if you compare the output to the input it aint the best Mick and it's been catalogued how the lower preamp models are/were deliberately crippled to perform and sound less well than the much more expensive models in the range.
You could consider an old 32.5 or 72 with a suitable power supply, but neither of them are as truthful to the source sonics as the 8000Q and none of them have the charm and emotional communication of the Croft - IMO of course...;) They can be readily "improved" though with proper design input and modern third party power-supply thinking. So much has changed in electronics "SS" style since the 1960's.......
DSJR
I only compare the sound, yes there are dozens of makes but in my opinion, Naim just effortlessly communicates the music and that does it for me.
Added to the fact, of course, that its build quality is good, brilliant after sales service and a committment to keeping old stuff going.
Regards
Mick
I cannot argue with that :)
Julian told me once that they'd modelled themselves on Quad. I think they did a good job and even now, Quad will tackle anything they've ever made so long as spares are still available. Which leads me to the cheap yet capable 77 preamps that come up for not much more than the 44................................................ .............................
I have a pair of 8000m mono blocks complete with a 8000q pre amp sitting on my office floor, they are for sale at £500 the lot, no boxes and not mint but the owner (not me) needs the cash.
A Solid State bargain IMO. I bet the tweakers/bodgers will "discover" this venerable old range before too long.....
aquapiranha
21-10-2009, 21:21
Shaun, have you considering building one yourself? there is currently a very simple yet it seems excellent sounding one called an LDR pre-amp that is cheap and easy to build - in fact there is a thread about just that in the DIY section.
(light dependent resistor LDR)
The Grand Wazoo
21-10-2009, 23:10
I have a pair of 8000m mono blocks complete with a 8000q pre amp sitting on my office floor, they are for sale at £500 the lot, no boxes and not mint but the owner (not me) needs the cash.
I'd be snapping Jon's arm off & setting about acquiring the requisite cables for bi-amping if I were you.
Haselsh1
22-10-2009, 08:57
My experience at bi-amping is not good. Quite a few years back I bi-amped my system and quickly realised I had wasted hundreds of pounds in amplification as to me, there was no discernible increase in sound quality. I can get an Audiolab 8000Q preamp via Lintone Audio for 250 quid. My original point was; would this be noticeably better than a passive preamp costing more...???
To my experience, an active preamp is much better than a passive one.
I don't understand much about the theory, but it would seem (from what I understood) that a *good* passive preamp is very hard to design.
Perhaps by joining a passive preamp and and a buffer you get to the same result as a preamp ? I wonder.
Most vintage valve amps and a few older transistor ones (Naim, Quad 33 etc) have a high input impedance, so you can use a good passive preamp as long as the interconnect is of very low capacitance. Some budget amps used to be basically a power amp fed by selector switch and volume control (Cyrus 1 and 2 were like this).
The 8000Q will be as transparent to the source as you can reasonably get. A lot of work went into its design and it was originally a £1200 preamp back when first launched. £250 for a UK version is a very good price IMO and it could be further tweaked if you could find out the "race-tuning" Tag carried out on the design after the take-over...
Sadly, I can't comment on the current Chinese made version. It may be at least as good for all I know, but won't have the solid build or pride in ownership the original had IMO...
Bi-amping can work wonders if the amps are all the same. Bi-wiring is a different and very inferior kettle of fish, as there's too many variables I found. Personally, I found bi-amping to be as close to active as you can get, even though the tweeters don't really need all that power. It probably keeps phase relationships under better control if the amps are all the sale from bass to top for all I know...
Haselsh1
22-10-2009, 12:49
Shaun, have you considering building one yourself? there is currently a very simple yet it seems excellent sounding one called an LDR pre-amp that is cheap and easy to build - in fact there is a thread about just that in the DIY section.
(light dependent resistor LDR)
Aquapiranha, my DIY skills are virtually non existant even though I do fully understand that I would get a much superior product that way. Unfortunately I have only 350 quid to spend which is why I questioned spending it in the first place. I questioned whether or not an Audiolab 8000Q ACTIVE would be better than a Creek OBH-22 PASSIVE. Both preamps cost around 300 pounds but of course the casework of the 8000Q would match my 8000M's.
The input impedence of the 8000M monoblocks means that a passive preamp can be used with no loss of treble and as they have a 1V input sensitivity they can be used with most other devices without any preamplification. I love the weight of these power amps and I love the sheer slam and 'welly' of the sound. For what they cost now they are a true bargain however mine were at the old price. C' Est La Vie I guess.
Haselsh1
22-10-2009, 13:00
Haselsh1
Treat yourself to a Naim system and join the legions of thousands of satisfied customers. Naim is the UK's most sucessful company for one simple reason, it is the best.
Regards
Mick
Put very simply, Naim is not the best. It never was and probably never will be. If it hadn't been for the prejudices of the seventies Hi-Fi magazines like Hi-Fi Answers, Naim would simply be what it always was... another UK amplifier.
Mick Parry
22-10-2009, 13:26
Shaun
Naim is highly successful because there are thousands such as I who regard them as the best. Not all of us are wrong.
Regards
Mick
Haselsh1
22-10-2009, 14:51
Shaun
Naim is highly successful because there are thousands such as I who regard them as the best. Not all of us are wrong.
Regards
Mick
There are so many successful amplifiers out there including Linn. They're not wrong either.
Mick Parry
22-10-2009, 17:00
I never said they were wrong.
It's just that Mick hasn't heard the best of them by comparison with his fave brand!
Have you arranged to visit Ash & Mart yet? No, I thought not.........
hifi_dave
22-10-2009, 18:20
Shaun,
The only sure way to know if the 8000Q is better than your passive Creek is to hear it in your system. As an Audiolab dealer for many years, I am not certain it will be.
Another option for you to consider is the Croft new basic pre at £350, Shit styling but stunning sound and a great MM phono stage thrown in. Well worth a listen.
aquapiranha
22-10-2009, 18:35
Aquapiranha, my DIY skills are virtually non existant even though I do fully understand that I would get a much superior product that way. Unfortunately I have only 350 quid to spend which is why I questioned spending it in the first place. I questioned whether or not an Audiolab 8000Q ACTIVE would be better than a Creek OBH-22 PASSIVE. Both preamps cost around 300 pounds but of course the casework of the 8000Q would match my 8000M's.
The input impedence of the 8000M monoblocks means that a passive preamp can be used with no loss of treble and as they have a 1V input sensitivity they can be used with most other devices without any preamplification. I love the weight of these power amps and I love the sheer slam and 'welly' of the sound. For what they cost now they are a true bargain however mine were at the old price. C' Est La Vie I guess.
hi Shaun, fair comment about the DIY aspect - it is always hard wielding a soldering iron for the first time! as to the cost, you would be looking at £100 tops, including a very nice case. The LDR is simple and uses few components.
Or, you could buy a pre-assembled one like this..
http://diyparadise.com/shop/images/eva_side_s.jpg
for about £150 from here...
http://diyparadise.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_reviews_info&products_id=109&reviews_id=19
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