Help needed with arm set up please

[Zoidburg]

Hi all,

I've recently changed cartridge to a 2m black and seem to be struggling with getting it set up correctly. After much faffing (all whist being super paranoid about damaging the cart!!) I have managed to get it playing reasonably well, however this is only without the hanging anti-skate weight. With the anti-skate weight added it seems like the arm is being pulled into the record and it appears to get stuck in the groove.

So I was wondering if anyone local to me (Liverpool outskirts) with some experience of arm & cartridge set up might be prepared to visit and give it a once over for me? I really feel like ive reached the end of my limited ability on this. It would be massively appreciated on my part as really want to be sure its set up (properly) and working at its best.

So AOS'ers is there anyone local who could help me out please? (Obviously as much biscuit's / coffee / tea as you can drink will be on offer as well as a beer or two).

thanks in advance.

cheers

Ben

[RobbieGong]

Hi all,

I've recently changed cartridge to a 2m black and seem to be struggling with getting it set up correctly. After much faffing (all whist being super paranoid about damaging the cart!!) I have managed to get it playing reasonably well, however this is only without the hanging anti-skate weight. With the anti-skate weight added it seems like the arm is being pulled into the record and it appears to get stuck in the groove.

So I was wondering if anyone local to me (Liverpool outskirts) with some experience of arm & cartridge set up might be prepared to visit and give it a once over for me? I really feel like ive reached the end of my limited ability on this. It would be massively appreciated on my part as really want to be sure its set up (properly) and working at its best.

So AOS'ers is there anyone local who could help me out please? (Obviously as much biscuit's / coffee / tea as you can drink will be on offer as well as a beer or two).

thanks in advance.

cheers

Ben

Good and sensible shout Ben, I and others have found the Black very fussy re: set up so good to get someone who is competent and experienced with these things. Set with this one in particular will make ALL the difference in my experience and most certainly worth it. All the best :)

[Zoidburg]

Perfectly happy to entertain for a few hours once it's set up too, if anyone's interested in vinyl and valves?

[Zoidburg]

Good and sensible shout Ben, I and others have found the Black very fussy re: set up so good to get someone who is competent and experienced with these things. Set with this one in particular will make ALL the difference in my experience and most certainly worth it. All the best :)

Thanks Robert I'm hoping I'm not too far away from getting it sorted but as I say I'm at the limits of my ability. I've been told the combo of my arm and the 2M black is really decent so the thought that it's not right and I'm not getting the fully monty out of it is really doing my swede in:)

[peter j]

When you say that with the anti skate weight fitted it appears to pull the arm into the record do you mean that it pulls the arm into the centre of the record.If so ,then it's very curious indeed and I await the turntable experts views.
When a record rotates it tends to pull the arm towards the record centre.When anti skate is added that tries to pull the arm towards the outside of the record. In theory when the tendency to pull towards the centre is matched by the anti skates pull to the outside then the arm should be in neutral so to speak.
Can't wait to see how this one gets solved.
Best of luck with it.
Pete.

[daytona600]

Other end of the country Ben but

the wand - superb performer but like all unipivots bit tricky to dial in 100%
Bias weights should just clip/slide in
use a test record or roughly 50% of tracking weight , then tune by ear with a favourite record

to protect cartridge fit the stylus guard or remove the armtube , easy on a unipivot as it pops out , careful not to pop out too much & damage the phono leads

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0600/1121/files/Wand_Data_Sheet_Version_10_S2.pdf?1730716121602768 1628

2M Black

also a superb performer when dialed in 100%
Shibata profiles are tricky & adjust wand base to get the VTA Correct & azimuth
& Shibatas like clean records or get a RCM

test record , stylus guage & ( use the protractor & azimuth guage supplied with the Wand )

2M Black + Wand combination is a bit of a giant killer & if you have adjustable loading on your phono stage
tuning capacitance yields further results for M2 Black

if i can assist give me a bell contact details below

[Zoidburg]

When you say that with the anti skate weight fitted it appears to pull the arm into the record do you mean that it pulls the arm into the centre of the record.If so ,then it's very curious indeed and I await the turntable experts views.
When a record rotates it tends to pull the arm towards the record centre.When anti skate is added that tries to pull the arm towards the outside of the record. In theory when the tendency to pull towards the centre is matched by the anti skates pull to the outside then the arm should be in neutral so to speak.
Can't wait to see how this one gets solved.
Best of luck with it.
Pete.

Hi Pete,

With the anti-skate fitted it appears to stop the arm from moving towards the centre or the record (seems to get caught in a groove and sticks), would that suggest im running too much anti-skate maybe?

cheers,

Ben

[Zoidburg]

Other end of the country Ben but

the wand - superb performer but like all unipivots bit tricky to dial in 100%
Bias weights should just clip/slide in
use a test record or roughly 50% of tracking weight , then tune by ear with a favourite record

to protect cartridge fit the stylus guard or remove the armtube , easy on a unipivot as it pops out , careful not to pop out too much & damage the phono leads

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0600/1121/files/Wand_Data_Sheet_Version_10_S2.pdf?1730716121602768 1628

2M Black

also a superb performer when dialed in 100%
Shibata profiles are tricky & adjust wand base to get the VTA Correct & azimuth
& Shibatas like clean records or get a RCM

test record , stylus guage & ( use the protractor & azimuth guage supplied with the Wand )

2M Black + Wand combination is a bit of a giant killer & if you have adjustable loading on your phono stage
tuning capacitance yields further results for M2 Black

if i can assist give me a bell contact details below

Hi Scott thanks for your comments, I don't fully understand everything so il give you a run down of what I've done so far

1. Set the wand shaft to the correct location relative to the TT centre and height using the wand tool that it came with (there are 2 different height settings recommended and iv started just slightly lower than the higher mark of the 2 for now as this was roughly where it was when using my previous cart).

2. Located the cart in the arm and screwed in position, then checked using the wand tool that it is positioned correctly (seems to be sitting exactly on the markers shown on the tool so hopefully all good there).

3. Adjusted the weighting at the rear of the arm so that I now have the cart running at 2.2g which is a fraction above where is should be. Ortofon recommend 1.5 to 2g tracking weight and reading the set up info on the Wand I should be running 2 large plates and 1 small one which I currently am. The small plate is also aligned slightly to one side as shown in the wand set up info. Previously I had misread the instructions and was only running 1 large plate which meant I was running far too much tracking weight however this has now been resolved!

4. I have checked the arm and it appears very close to horizontal from the side and when looking at the front of the cart it also appears horizontal on that plane as well.

And that's as far as ive got with my limited ability............playing a few sides without the anti skate weight it sounds good but I am worried ive still not got it spot on and want to be sure all is as it should be.

cheers

Ben

[Oldpinkman]

You're right , you need someone near Liverpool. It's very tricky remotely.

If the antiskate appears to be pulling too hard, stopping the arm tracking to the middle of the record that either sounds like too much, or outright snagged. I don't know this cartridge but 2.2g sounds plenty and some. How are you measuring that tracking force? Do you have a stylus balance - ortofons own plastic job is pretty good.

A test record is really good for setting anti-skate if you know what you are doing, but a blank record (I use a 12" laser video disc) will give you a decent idea (Better than relying on manufacturer scales). If you put the stylus on about "track 4" of the blank record, it should take about 1-2 seconds to get smoothly to the outer edge. If it is moving to the centre you almost certainly have too little antiskate.

I know it used to be possible to get the very fine thread on a Mission 774 caught and snagged. Check that the antiskate is running free and try it with the lowest weight available first.

Or get someone local...

[Zoidburg]

You're right , you need someone near Liverpool. It's very tricky remotely.

If the antiskate appears to be pulling too hard, stopping the arm tracking to the middle of the record that either sounds like too much, or outright snagged. I don't know this cartridge but 2.2g sounds plenty and some. How are you measuring that tracking force? Do you have a stylus balance - ortofons own plastic job is pretty good.

A test record is really good for setting anti-skate if you know what you are doing, but a blank record (I use a 12" laser video disc) will give you a decent idea (Better than relying on manufacturer scales). If you put the stylus on about "track 4" of the blank record, it should take about 1-2 seconds to get smoothly to the outer edge. If it is moving to the centre you almost certainly have too little antiskate.

I know it used to be possible to get the very fine thread on a Mission 774 caught and snagged. Check that the antiskate is running free and try it with the lowest weight available first.

Or get someone local...

Cheers for the reply Richard, as mentioned above the tracking force for the 2m black is advised at 1.5 to 2g so I'm slightly above that at the mo at 2.2g. I'm measuring it on a digital tracking gauge I recently bought from ebay which I assume is reasonably accurate, at least I hope it is!

As mentioned il check the anti-skate again for snags and ensure its on its lowest weight.

I'm really hoping for someone more knowledgeable than me can pop in for a quick session but failing that I will resort to more trial and error and possibly the purchase of a test disk as well.

[struth]

Wouldnt worry about being slightly over...its not much and i prefer running carts at top end . Not sure about running without antiscate but if its working well then i guess its working well...:)

[Oldpinkman]

It's not a good idea to have the wrong anti-skate if you can help it, since it can have a major impact on stylus wear.

Digital gauges are probably OK - they sometimes get affected by the magnets in moving coils, but I wouldn't have thought that would he an issue with a moving magnet

I don't know this cartridge - Cagey does - but I know it is reputed to be a bit fussy to get right. However, I don't associate Ortofon with needing to track overweight. If anything, based on the Ortofons I've had and used, particularly the moving magnets, I would have expected to be at the other end of the range. The little plastic stylus balance they make is pretty good - at least to that level of precision

[Zoidburg]

It's not a good idea to have the wrong anti-skate if you can help it, since it can have a major impact on stylus wear.

Digital gauges are probably OK - they sometimes get affected by the magnets in moving coils, but I wouldn't have thought that would he an issue with a moving magnet

I don't know this cartridge - Cagey does - but I know it is reputed to be a bit fussy to get right. However, I don't associate Ortofon with needing to track overweight. If anything, based on the Ortofons I've had and used, particularly the moving magnets, I would have expected to be at the other end of the range. The little plastic stylus balance they make is pretty good - at least to that level of precision


Yep everything I read about them says they can be fussy with set up which is why I need some help really.

[Zoidburg]

UPDATE!

I've had a chat with Simon at Design Build Listen and he has said that I will be fine without the anti-skate as his earlier arms (which mine is) are not so critical about it. I also noted that the anti-skate thread had become wrapped around itself so it was actually causing the main problem. So this is now resolved thankfully.

I still have a few nagging concerns that things are not 100% correct but ive had a few offers and hopefully this weekend il have the benefit of someone far wiser than me to run through everything and check / adjust as necessary.

Will update again after the weekend hopefully.

[Zoidburg]

I'm pleased to say that after a visit on Sunday evening from Geoff ("Oldius" on the wam and here I think) all my problems have been resolved. Geoff adjusted the height of the arm to ensure it was more parallel to the record and also checked the cartridge downforce several times to ensure everything was spot on. Massive respect to him as it took a while longer than was expected.

its a weight off my mind knowing all is spot on and I can get back to enjoying the music now!

[RobbieGong]

Nice one Ben, Glad to hear that :)