View Full Version : FBA Soundstage vs Vinyl
I listen mostly through my FBA system of losslessly ripped CDs played via the system in my sig.
I also have a the old Rega deck (in my sig) just for playing some vinyl that I have, but I'm not about to fully convert to vinyl or upgrade the deck at all.
However, through the deck the soundstage appears to be bigger, more space between the instruments, like it's coming from the wall rather than just around the speakers vs the FBA system. In particular, the hi end is more vibrant and sparkly. I don't have that many duplicate records/cds to compare though and I haven't ran exhaustive tests, this is rather an immediate impression I get.
So basically, how can I improve my FBA soundstage?
Of course, that vibrancy might be sibilance!
Rpi/sabre dac combo
Yeah, I still need to read that thread!
So basically, how can I improve my FBA soundstage?
Equalization. Ramp up the midrange a bit. That's all the TT is doing.
Audio Advent
09-01-2016, 16:27
Add a bit of stereo random noise (like real life has) and you'll get a better feeling of "space". Also a very very low level. low frequency rumble I think I read somewhere has a funny effect on the human perception of space and real-life ness.
That should be enough to get a few people to this thread...
I should say that this isn't really about FBA at all but rather my actual system, so the title is a bit of a misnomer, sorry.
I should say that this isn't really about FBA at all but rather my actual system, so the title is a bit of a misnomer, sorry.
There are not many DACs that have the subjective feel of dynamic contrast that vinyl does, and the more holographic soundstage of good analogue - digital is generally flatter in soundstage. There are also "grain" issues with digital whilst vinyl can be more forgiving.
iMac > ALAC > Airport Express > Beresford Caiman DAC
If your iMac has digital out why not link it directly to the Caiman (or have I misread your set-up)
I have my Mac-Mini connected to a Q-Dac via optical and it sounds very nice indeed (using Audivarna as player rather than the not very good iTunes)
I listen mostly through my FBA system of losslessly ripped CDs played via the system in my sig.
I also have a the old Rega deck (in my sig) just for playing some vinyl that I have, but I'm not about to fully convert to vinyl or upgrade the deck at all.
However, through the deck the soundstage appears to be bigger, more space between the instruments, like it's coming from the wall rather than just around the speakers vs the FBA system. In particular, the hi end is more vibrant and sparkly. I don't have that many duplicate records/cds to compare though and I haven't ran exhaustive tests, this is rather an immediate impression I get.
So basically, how can I improve my FBA soundstage?
Unfortunately digital finds it very difficult to create a soundstage similar to vinyl, particularly depth. Its the nature of the beast. Not much you can do about it unless you spend lots of dosh.
Unfortunately digital finds it very difficult to create a soundstage similar to vinyl, particularly depth. Its the nature of the beast. Not much you can do about it unless you spend lots of dosh.
I would say it's the other way around ..... vinyl requires a very significant investment to get the kind of repeatable results obtainable from even a modest investment in contemporary digital systems.
Hi Lee,
Also consider the 'squashing' sonic effect of the cheap 'n' nasty switch-mode PSUs, used by almost all FBA sources, which even a good CDP (fitted with a linear PSU) will show up... I know how much better my RPi sounds, powered by a nice big linear PSU (a Paul Hynes SR3DR) - no such soundstage issues there, I can assure you! ;)
Marco.
P.S Grant, why are you not using the IQ-Audio DAC with your RPi?
Take the AE out of the system first and connect up via the digi/optical out of the Mac straight into the dac, if that sounds better and it should then get a better dac next.
Doesn't the AE have a very high levels of jitter?
I would say it's the other way around ..... vinyl requires a very significant investment to get the kind of repeatable results obtainable from even a modest investment in contemporary digital systems.
:lol:
I would say it's the other way around ..... vinyl requires a very significant investment to get the kind of repeatable results obtainable from even a modest investment in contemporary digital systems.
That's been my experience too.
Turntables by their build quality are going to be an expense but you dont need to spend thousands to get a nice sound ime. My current vinyl setup is under 500.
Edit.. Its not actually on rethink.. Forgot arm and cart doh... But well under 1k
My vinyl set up cost 18 times what the CD player did. Quality wise they are about on a par.
If i count the Pi system and the cd system together then its about same as my vinyl currently is.... Think its about as good as i need and doubt i would improve it to me by much to my old ears by flinging money at it. I tried that. Albeit in a minor way.
Yo daftee,
Did you miss this:
P.S Grant, why are you not using the IQ-Audio DAC with your RPi?
You mentioned something about using a Sabre DAC?
IME, using anything other than the 'built-in' DAC, from IQ Audio, dilutes the whole elegant simplicity of the RPi - and that includes the purity of the audio signal, as with the essentially 'hard-wired" IQ Audio one, plugged directly into the Pi. you simply can't get a shorter signal path! ;)
Marco.
Yo daftee,
Did you miss this:
You mentioned something about using a Sabre DAC?
IME, using anything other than the 'built-in' DAC, from IQ Audio, dilutes the whole elegant simplicity of the RPi - and that includes the purity of the audio signal, as with the essentially 'hard-wired" IQ Audio one, plugged directly into the Pi. you simply can't get a shorter signal path! ;)
Marco.
Got 2 Pi systems Marco... The one upstairs uses the iq dac. One downstairs uses the sabre based audiophonics clocked one which i think is better for my needs although a bit dearer. Still internal dac though. That one is run off a linear psu and currently running moode 2.5 test code
www.audiophonics.fr/en/kits-modules-diy-dac/audiophonics-i-sabre-dac-es9023-raspberry-pi-a-b-20-i2s-p-9341.html
Thats just one of their dacs..they do others
In terms of the digital/analogue thing, I agree that it'll always take more to get better sounds from a turntable, simply from the engineering aspect, as the latter is much more of a mechanical beast - and good engineering costs money!
However, aside from the RPi/IQ Audio combination, which has been a total revelation (therefore an exception in this area), and as cheap as chips, I disagree that digital replay can be done WELL, cheaply - certainly what I would consider qualifying as "WELL", especially when it comes to CD players, unless buying second hand.
In that respect, my turntable and CD player are comparable in price (both around the £5k mark), however, in terms of the T/T, £2300 of that was for the Ortofon tonearm! :)
Marco.
Got 2 Pi systems Marco... The one upstairs uses the iq dac. One downstairs uses the sabre based audiophonics clocked one which i think is better for my needs although a bit dearer. Still internal dac though. That one is run off a linear psu and currently running moode 2.5 test code
www.audiophonics.fr/en/kits-modules-diy-dac/audiophonics-i-sabre-dac-es9023-raspberry-pi-a-b-20-i2s-p-9341.html
Thats just one of their dacs..they do others
Ah, okies. Thanks for the clarification.
If it's an internal DAC too, then that's ok. I simply don't get the idea of using an external DAC, with the RPi, and thus introducing the need for digital cables, which, in my experience, no matter how 'good' [cables can never be good, merely a necessary evil], grossly compromise signal integrity, and thus negate any sonic benefits you thought you were getting by using a supposedly 'better' DAC.
No, for me, if you want to obtain the best results with the RPi, then K.I.S.S. The beauty of the Pi is in its elegance of execution/simplicity, so best keep it that way :exactly:
If you want to fundamentally improve on its performance, then buy (or build) a quality off-board linear PSU.
Marco.
Ah, okies. Thanks for the clarification. If it's an internal DAC too, then that's ok. I simply don't get the idea of using an external DAC, with the RPi, and thus introducing the need for digital cables, which, in my experience, no matter how good they are, grossly compromise signal integrity, and thus negate any sonic benefits you thought you were getting by using a supposedly 'better' DAC.
No, for me, if you want to obtain the best results with the RPi, then K.I.S.S. :exactly:
Marco.
Ah i see what you mean now... No, i dont use any external dacs now. Even the cds are now coming out analogue but are going through my mf X10v3 mu-vista 6112 tube buffer. I stumbled apon this by accident but a nice one for me anyways.
However, aside from the RPi/IQ Audio combination, which has been a total revelation (therefore an exception in this area), and as cheap as chips,
Marco.
... and therein lies the rub (and why I made the claim earlier in the thread)
The Pi/IQaudio has changed the game in such a significant way that the cost argument now weighs in favour of digital by a sizeable margin.
Less than £200 will get you a very well set up PiDac combo with a decent steel case and external regulated supply/rechargeable battery which allows for an excellent SQ playing readily available high quality digital files from a wide range of sources.
I think you would struggle to get a well set up vinyl player with equivalent SQ for anything like that price, particularly if your amp has no phono stage built in. If you then factor in the required disc cleaner (£200 - £500 range) to keep your vinyl playable to that level its quite clear (to me at least) which one makes more sense both from an economic perspective and also ease of use.
Of course there are other factors at play such as the joy of owning a material artefact, but in terms of cost it really is a no-brainer IMV :)
Of course there are other factors at play such as the joy of owning a material artefact, but in terms of cost it really is a no-brainer IMV :)
Best of both worlds...buy the CD, rip it to FLAC, then file it in the rack !!! ;)
The convenience of streaming, and the joy of ownership combined :)
E.G. I received this at the weekend...22 CDs for £27!!!, including mini album sleeves and compilation booklet
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005ELZNH0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
Yes, Mike, I agree. As I said, the Pi was a game changer, which is why I decided to promote it so heavily on AoS. Take that out of the equation though, and the situation alters.
Until I heard the RPi/IQ Audio DAC combo, I'd almost dismissed FBA as being capable of producing acceptable (to me) sound quality, as I'd heard numerous examples of it from Squeezeboxes to high-end Linn DS devices, and wouldn't have given any of it house room, compared with what I was getting from my modified (vintage) Sony CDP/DAC combo.
If we're talking CD players, then engineering quality matters hugely there too, which is why the best examples of the breed can be just as expensive as a quality turntable! ;)
Marco.
Audio Advent
19-01-2016, 00:25
Why would you want to turn back the clock and take it out of the equation? You would only be doing that to make an outdated point for argument's sake..
You have to live in the now and accept that for you digital can be amazing for really really cheap. There's no point keeping the old view point but I guess old habits die hard.
Audio Advent
19-01-2016, 00:45
Unfortunately digital finds it very difficult to create a soundstage similar to vinyl, particularly depth. Its the nature of the beast. Not much you can do about it unless you spend lots of dosh.
Not really.. if you want a soundstage similar to vinyl you need to understand what is going on with vinyl.
Have a look at the three "tricks" for widening the stereo soundstage of a mix mentioned in this article: https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/pt-0910.htm
Compare them to the cross-talk of vinyl and consider the reflections you get as needle vibrations travel down through the vinyl and bounce back off the platter back to the needle. You end up with out-of-phase crosstalk and imperceivable delay (I guess called time-smear) which covers the first two of the standard stereo-widening mixing techniques in the article.
The third technique (that of enhancing the differences between left and right by EQing them very differently) is covered by the subtle discrepencies between the channels due to set-up or cart imbalances. Those imbalances can pick out general "air" and noise and give it a stereo width of its own.
I've heard experienced sound engineers talk of their experiences in the studio as recording mediums changed too - the vinyl masters never could reproduce the stereo width they were hearing on either the master tape or the master digital files. Just too much cross-talk.. You get other pseudo stereo effects instead but it's not what was recorded.
But, that's not to knock the sound of vinyl. I still love it myself and would also happily apply some DSP to create similar effects on other formats from time to time just to get that emmersive feel.
I would say it's the other way around ..... vinyl requires a very significant investment to get the kind of repeatable results obtainable from even a modest investment in contemporary digital systems.
This is not Lees experience?
Hi Sam,
Why would you want to turn back the clock and take it out of the equation? You would only be doing that to make an outdated point for argument's sake..
You have to live in the now and accept that for you digital can be amazing for really really cheap. There's no point keeping the old view point but I guess old habits die hard.
Simply because, for me, the RPi is a total one-off. It's the first FBA source that's been able to successfully compete with (but not outperform) my CD player and DAC, and allow me to enjoy it as another valid music source in my system, rather than sitting picking holes in its sonic performance, as has been the case with all other FBA sources I've heard.
I don't really rate any other FBA sources I've heard, as they sound crap in comparison. As such, for me, the RPi isn't representative of the majority of what's available now. Therefore, for me, that means that, in general, digital isn't amazing for really, really cheap - most of the time (to my ears) it's shit, in comparison with what I get from my Sony CDP and DAC, or my T/T.
How does the old saying go: one swallow doesn't make a summer? ;)
When all other 'cheap as chips' digital devices sound as good as the RPi, and thus set the same standard, then I'll be able to say that digital can be done WELL (my definition of 'WELL'), really cheaply. Until then....
Marco.
Audio Advent
19-01-2016, 09:24
But you've discovered that digital CAN be done brilliantly for less than about £80.
Hopefully then your advice for someone with say £500 to spend on a source would be to get an RPi2 + Pi-Dac (perhaps with an upgraded PSU) and not bother with vinyl as they will get the best out of their system that way? What I mean is, if someone is asking advice then there's no longer any point in telling them that vinyl is better sound per pound any more because you can point them to something cheap which will blow a lot of it away under a certain large budget.
Of course you can have a generalised discussion and say that RPi is an exception but mostly these discussions come from someone asking advice about how to spend their money.
But you've discovered that digital CAN be done brilliantly for less than about £80.
Hopefully then your advice for someone with say £500 to spend on a source would be to get an RPi2 + Pi-Dac (perhaps with an upgraded PSU) and not bother with vinyl as they will get the best out of their system that way?
Yeah, sure. That would be one suggestion. However, for £500 I could put together a vinyl source that would at least compete with the RPi, but it would involve a lot of digging around in the second-hand market, so not a simple 'ready made' solution, in the way of the RPi.
That doesn't mean to say, though, that it couldn't be done! ;)
Marco.
Hi Sam,
I don't really rate any other FBA sources I've heard, as they sound crap in comparison. As such, for me, the RPi isn't representative of the majority of what's available now. Therefore, for me, that means that, in general, digital isn't amazing for really, really cheap - most of the time (to my ears) it's shit, in comparison with what I get from my Sony CDP and DAC, or my T/T.
Hi Marco, it's down to you that I have an IQaudio RPi combo, which as we all know is fantastic VFM...;)
However I've also got the Audiophonics ESS Sabre V2, DAC and RPi combo, and that sounds even better :)
But blowing them both out of the water (and at the comparative costs it absolutely should) is my SBtouch/iFiUSB Power/MDAC L2 'Toy' combo...well at least to my ears anyway :eyebrows:
IMHO External DACs need care with regard to connectivity in order to get the best out of them, the USB route particularly...:)
If your iMac has digital out why not link it directly to the Caiman (or have I misread your set-up)
I have my Mac-Mini connected to a Q-Dac via optical and it sounds very nice indeed (using Audivarna as player rather than the not very good iTunes)
It's connected to the Caiman via Airplay. Optical cable from Airport Express to Caiman.
p.s. apologies for not responding to these thread updates until now
Take the AE out of the system first and connect up via the digi/optical out of the Mac straight into the dac, if that sounds better and it should then get a better dac next.
Doesn't the AE have a very high levels of jitter?
I plan to do this but I will need a long optical cable....around 7.5m, is that problematic?
An RPi will be something I will look into next Marco, thanks.
Thanks guys.
Edit: My vinyl setup is extremely modest; a Rega Planar 2 with original arm and cart, into the Rega Fono Mini pre amp, into the Audiolab 8000S. Around £200 for turntable and pre amp!
Hi Lee,
Also consider the 'squashing' sonic effect of the cheap 'n' nasty switch-mode PSUs, used by almost all FBA sources, which even a good CDP (fitted with a linear PSU) will show up... I know how much better my RPi sounds, powered by a nice big linear PSU (a Paul Hynes SR3DR) - no such soundstage issues there, I can assure you! ;)
Marco.
Umm, so my FBA source, I guess, is my external hard drive or my iMac, yeah? I know nothing about PSUs so I wouldn't know where to start.
This is not Lees experience?
I wasn't disputing Lee's experience - just your statement that there was 'Not much you can do about it unless you spend lots of dosh.'
As Audio Advent has pointed out, about £80 for a basic Pi set up is not really 'loads of dosh' to get very good SQ from digital files. :)
As it is, I have a similar set up to Lee and have already suggested what I consider to be a significant improvement simply by changing how the iMac is connected - cost? - around £16 for a Fisual Hollywood optical cable with suitable adapter. Of course, a lot will depend on the quality of files output from the iMac and the player, but both can be improved for very little outlay.
As it is, I have a similar set up to Lee and have already suggested what I consider to be a significant improvement simply by changing how the iMac is connected - cost? - around £16 for a Fisual Hollywood optical cable with suitable adapter. Of course, a lot will depend on the quality of files output from the iMac and the player, but both can be improved for very little outlay.
Mike, as mentioned above, I need a cable of around 7m from iMac to Caiman. Is this length ok (I don't see why not)? Does the brand really matter?
My files are lossless and I use iTunes for playback.
Dauntless
19-01-2016, 13:22
I wasn't disputing Lee's experience - just your statement that there was 'Not much you can do about it unless you spend lots of dosh.'
As Audio Advent has pointed out, about £80 for a basic Pi set up is not really 'loads of dosh' to get very good SQ from digital files. :)
As it is, I have a similar set up to Lee and have already suggested what I consider to be a significant improvement simply by changing how the iMac is connected - cost? - around £16 for a Fisual Hollywood optical cable with suitable adapter. Of course, a lot will depend on the quality of files output from the iMac and the player, but both can be improved for very little outlay.
In total agreement with the Fisual Hollywood cable. I was amazed at the difference a 1m length made. One problem with digital is the output signal is too big and some of the other figures ie dynamic range are bigger too. Many Hi-Fi amps are too sensitive for digital and don't react too well to the range. Rothwell has made an industry selling attenuated cable in an attempt to equalize the two signals. I don't think this is a good approach myself. My own system is set up for digital and my amps are insensitive and need up to 2v for full output. Also I can control the gain of the power amps and adjust it to my room. I know that the black stuff can give good results and I have no particular axe to grind. Good digital is so much cheaper to run for me.
Hollywood cable not available over 1m length.
Mike, as mentioned above, I need a cable of around 7m from iMac to Caiman. Is this length ok (I don't see why not)? Does the brand really matter?
My files are lossless and I use iTunes for playback.
I have no experience with longer optical cables but don't see why it should be a problem if you get equivalent quality, Fisual do a 5m for £10 if you can lessen the distance a bit:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fisual-Super-Pearl-Digital-Optical/dp/B00856OB3S - the user reviews sound positive.
For me iTunes is the weakest link for playback from a Mac and this can be noticeably improved using either Amarra or Audivarna as player (using the iTunes library as source). I've tried both and they are definitely better that the rather tinny iTunes effort; I opted for Audivarna. Both can be tried for free before purchase which I would definitely recommend, particularly if you do end up sticking with Airplay.
Audio Advent
19-01-2016, 23:06
Yeah, sure. That would be one suggestion. However, for £500 I could put together a vinyl source that would at least compete with the RPi, but it would involve a lot of digging around in the second-hand market, so not a simple 'ready made' solution, in the way of the RPi.
That doesn't mean to say, though, that it couldn't be done! ;)
Marco.
Well yes absolutely! And a good deal of luck. And it will be much more satisfying for having found it - and to use - than the RPi... and coincidently my Alphason Symphony with HR100 cost exactly that ;) So from experience I definately agree (but you might have to be a hifi geek to get there).
robtweed
20-01-2016, 07:29
If you're using Moode on Pi, and you have an iTunes library sitting on a Mac, just set up a share on the Mac to the itunes_library directory and configure it as a NAS source on Moode. Bingo you have bit-perfect playback of all of your iTunes files through Moode on the Pi. It means I can still use iTunes to add new CD rips etc and generally maintain the library.
Note that Airplay does a re-packaging of files to 44.1/16 (or is it 48/16?), so if you have a 96/24 file on iTunes, Airplay will down-sample it before you hear it. The Moode/NAS/Pi approach will play it at the original 96/24
robtweed
20-01-2016, 07:49
In my opinion, there's a crucial test to all this "vinyl sound" business. Perhaps someone has tried this already - if not I think it needs to be done, as the consequences are interesting:
- using whatever high-end vinyl-playing front end you prefer, play a number of your best pressings, and record them digitally using a good (ideally high-end) A/D converter to eg 192/24 or DSD
- perform a blind A/B test between the original vinyl playback and the digitised copy, playing the digitised copy through a high-end "analogue-sounding" digital playback system
My bet is that it will be impossible to distinguish the two, proving that digital playback can sound just like vinyl.....and thereby proving that the unique and highly (and expensively) sought-after "analogue/vinyl sound" isn't a deficiency of digital per se or a magical property of vinyl, but simply an artifact of the combined effects of mastering for vinyl cutting and distortions etc introduced during playback.
Of course I might be wrong....in which case I'll be a convert :-)
Meanwhile, back to my Pi.....
In my opinion, there's a crucial test to all this "vinyl sound" business. Perhaps someone has tried this already - if not I think it needs to be done, as the consequences are interesting:
- using whatever high-end vinyl-playing front end you prefer, play a number of your best pressings, and record them digitally using a good (ideally high-end) A/D converter to eg 192/24 or DSD
- perform a blind A/B test between the original vinyl playback and the digitised copy, playing the digitised copy through a high-end "analogue-sounding" digital playback system
My bet is that it will be impossible to distinguish the two, proving that digital playback can sound just like vinyl.....and thereby proving that the unique and highly (and expensively) sought-after "analogue/vinyl sound" isn't a deficiency of digital per se or a magical property of vinyl, but simply an artifact of the combined effects of mastering for vinyl cutting and distortions etc introduced during playback.
Of course I might be wrong....in which case I'll be a convert :-)
Meanwhile, back to my Pi.....
Hi Rob,
Lol... I've done that a few times, and whilst undoubtedly you can get very good results, the digital recording produced is always imbued with the sonic signature of the soundcard (AD converter), and as a result never sounds as good as the original vinyl pressing, played natively on my turntable.
*However*, recordings produced that way more often than not always sound better [more real/lifelike] than a commercially produced CD of the same album, where effectively (to use the old terminology), my recording has been produced as 'ADD' (using a vinyl source), instead of the all-digital 'DDD' process of the commercial item....
Make of that what you will ;)
Marco.
robtweed
20-01-2016, 08:36
Whenever I've tried it, I couldn't hear any difference
And personally I've preferred the CD copies of every LP I'd previously owned
Heresy!!!
Well yes absolutely! And a good deal of luck. And it will be much more satisfying for having found it - and to use - than the RPi... and coincidently my Alphason Symphony with HR100 cost exactly that ;) So from experience I definately agree (but you might have to be a hifi geek to get there).
Yup, which shows that, with a bit of effort, you can get just as good sounds from vinyl, as digital, for a relatively small outlay. The key to this, as ever, is to broaden your horizons and look beyond the 'obvious choices' (whether vinyl or digital) within your available budget, and not simply choose the latest ready-made, easily obtained commercial item.
Think outside of the box, do some research, and the rewards are there! :exactly:
Marco.
Whenever I've tried it, I couldn't hear any difference
And personally I've preferred the CD copies of every LP I'd previously owned
Heresy!!!
Well then, our experiences differ. For me, there is no 'free lunch', whenever copying an original piece of music, via the introduction of an additional interface.
In my experience, that certainly applies when 'digitizing' vinyl... You can generally always hear the 'sonic signature', derived from the signal manipulation of the interface, and imbued on the recording, as a result :)
Marco.
If you're using Moode on Pi, and you have an iTunes library sitting on a Mac, just set up a share on the Mac to the itunes_library directory and configure it as a NAS source on Moode. Bingo you have bit-perfect playback of all of your iTunes files through Moode on the Pi.
That sounds interesting, and I have a Mac, including Moode on Pi. I would, however, need to set up an iTunes library. Could you outline the process required? In 'layman's terms', please, [preferably in easy steps, 1-4, or whatever], as I'm not terribly computer literate :)
Marco.
If you're using Moode on Pi, and you have an iTunes library sitting on a Mac, just set up a share on the Mac to the itunes_library directory and configure it as a NAS source on Moode. Bingo you have bit-perfect playback of all of your iTunes files through Moode on the Pi. It means I can still use iTunes to add new CD rips etc and generally maintain the library.
I have done exactly that and found the process frustrating (setting up the file share on the Mac getting Moode to recognise the Mac folder as a NAS) and disappointing in that Moode has frequently dropped the NAS folder and failed to pick it up again - possibly a WiFI glitch but not convinced. I didn't find any advantage over playing iTunes files via Airplay - in fact the opposite.
Personally I wouldn't recommend it
(Mac Mini 2010 running El Capitan)
Have you developed a stutter? ;)
Noted though, on the iTunes thing.
Marco.
I have no experience with longer optical cables but don't see why it should be a problem if you get equivalent quality, Fisual do a 5m for £10 if you can lessen the distance a bit:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fisual-Super-Pearl-Digital-Optical/dp/B00856OB3S - the user reviews sound positive.
I've tried a cable direct into the DAC, temporarily with the shorter cable I have, and while it's a little early to tell, the one frustration for me is that the Mac is all or nothing with audio through the toslink output socket. I only want iTunes audio to go to the dac; other audio I'd like to come out of the Mac's speakers but that's not possible :(
I've tried a cable direct into the DAC, temporarily with the shorter cable I have, and while it's a little early to tell, the one frustration for me is that the Mac is all or nothing with audio through the toslink output socket. I only want iTunes audio to go to the dac; other audio I'd like to come out of the Mac's speakers but that's not possible :(
REPLY EDITED
OOPS - sorry - just understood what you are trying to do and I doubt if that's possible using the optical output :(
robtweed
20-01-2016, 17:34
All I can say is that it works very reliably for me - particularly with the latest Moode 2.5 version.
I found the trick with the OS X shares is to make sure you set Windows Sharing on. Add a registered user of your Mac to the Users list and set Read Only access. Discover the IP address of the Mac.
Then in Moode, add a NAS source, using the shared folder name you defined for the share on the Mac, the IP address of the Mac and the username and password for the User you added to the share. It should just come up with a nice green Tick. I haven't had to mess about with any special options in the Moode NAS source definition. You may have to tell Moode to re-build its library list from all its sources which, if, like me, you have a very large iTunes library, can take a long time
The other trick is to tell Moode not to display the playlist in the Playback panel - if your iTunes library is huge it otherwise clobbers the Moode browser front-end performance.
Other than that it's been all plain sailing for me, and well worth it compared to Airplay using Moode.
My favourite way of using my iTunes library in Moode is to select the option to replace the playlist with and play the entire iTunes NAS source, and set the playback to random play.
All I can say is that it works very reliably for me - particularly with the latest Moode 2.5 version.
I found the trick with the OS X shares is to make sure you set Windows Sharing on. Add a registered user of your Mac to the Users list and set Read Only access. Discover the IP address of the Mac.
Then in Moode, add a NAS source, using the shared folder name you defined for the share on the Mac, the IP address of the Mac and the username and password for the User you added to the share. It should just come up with a nice green Tick.
Did all the above Rob using 2.4 and then 2.5 - also set SMB share - and got a lovely green tick in the end (don't ask how long it took though...)
Worked well for a while but then Moode decided to 'untick' it at random. The last time was after a local network outage (Virgin Media took 30 hours to fix it - GRRR) after which no matter what I did Moode would not recognise the folder and only came up with a red X. All settings were correct (including ISP address) but it simply refused and to be honest at that point I decided enough was enough and went back to my ultra reliable SSD and occasional Airplay use.
Another problem I had is that neither Volumio nor Moode will display album tracks in the correct order when using iTunes library - I now use WAV files in 'album' folders and get no problems at all.
Audio Advent
21-01-2016, 00:08
Yup, which shows that, with a bit of effort, you can get just as good sounds from vinyl, as digital, for a relatively small outlay.
Ah well, I didn't say that it was as good as my digital. That £500 purchase didn't include a cart so would have remained silent. Also it relied on an integrated's phono stage which is/was rather average.
My £220 dac improves with every positive hifi change I make meaning that it is in no way holding anything back and mostly I play from my pc which I would have had anyway. I don't think I could get any vinyl set up as good as my digital for £220 or even £500.. Due to my hifi changes I had to then find a seperate phono stage which is further expense just to get a sound out of it.
Audio Advent
21-01-2016, 00:11
In my opinion, there's a crucial test to all this "vinyl sound" business. Perhaps someone has tried this already - if not I think it needs to be done, as the consequences are interesting:
- using whatever high-end vinyl-playing front end you prefer, play a number of your best pressings, and record them digitally using a good (ideally high-end) A/D converter to eg 192/24 or DSD
- perform a blind A/B test between the original vinyl playback and the digitised copy, playing the digitised copy through a high-end "analogue-sounding" digital playback system
My bet is that it will be impossible to distinguish the two, proving that digital playback can sound just like vinyl.....and thereby proving that the unique and highly (and expensively) sought-after "analogue/vinyl sound" isn't a deficiency of digital per se or a magical property of vinyl, but simply an artifact of the combined effects of mastering for vinyl cutting and distortions etc introduced during playback.
Of course I might be wrong....in which case I'll be a convert :-)
Meanwhile, back to my Pi.....
I've used a digital pre-amp with phono stage and found that the qualities of vinyl came through i.e. the digital conversion was able to portray them. However I wasn't able to switch back to analogue to compare and neither could I try a different phono stage to do that either.
walpurgis
21-01-2016, 00:36
My CD digital sounds as good as my record playing gear. I don't do 'computer Hi-Fi' (yet).
The CD section I suppose new was the equivalent of £2600 or so.
The vinyl side of things is harder to evaluate. I paid £100 for the TT (bargain), but by modern standards I reckon you'd be looking at over £1000. The arm was purchased thirty five years ago for £200 and I suppose a modern parallel might be £800 (not that there is one). The current MC cart of choice (I have a few and non-MCs), about £1200. A choice of two SUTs. One worth at least £500 and the other, well who knows? Phono stage currently about £700 new. Call it equivalent to over £4000.
Each source has its own sound, but neither is inferior to the other and be assured, the rest of the system is very capable of showing up the most minute differences.
Ah well, I didn't say that it was as good as my digital. That £500 purchase didn't include a cart so would have remained silent. Also it relied on an integrated's phono stage which is/was rather average.
Yup, sure, and also said £500 presumes the existence of a decent MM phono stage inside the main amplifier for the system (already bought and paid for, and used for reproducing digital music, via its line/AUX stage), which in my experience can be done.
There are a number of good quality vintage integrated amplifiers, with decent built-in MM phono stages (from the era when vinyl was the main music source, and so the manufacturers concerned spent proper money on them), which can now be found inexpensively on the second-hand market. Therefore, you simply use one of those to add a turntable to.
Also, given a £500 budget, for a vinyl 'front end', as it were, I could include in that a quality MM cartridge! It's simply a matter of having the experience of knowing what to buy and where to look - all of which (that somewhat priceless accumulate knowledge) is able to save you a fortune... ;)
That's essentially what my system is all about: achieving maximum SPPV, using the above system-building methodology, albeit at a rather different price level. However, I guarantee that I could put together a £500 T/T (including cartridge) that would easily compete with anything digital has to offer at the price, and probably beyond. I would love to demonstrate it, too :)
One of the most basic and important things, in order to achieve quality sounds from vinyl, is to play pristine clean, mint condition records! It seems entirely obvious, but sadly not doing so (and, as a result, living with the distorted sound of glorified 'Rice Crispies') is one of the main reasons why folk never get to hear what vinyl is truly capable of!
Marco.
My CD digital sounds as good as my record playing gear.
Yup, for me, it's all about creating a balanced sounding system, especially if you have access to a large quantity of music on various formats (vinyl, CD and FBA), and so wish to enjoy it all, at a similar level of sonic performance.
In that respect, there's no point in having, say, and amazing sounding FBA/streaming source, and (in comparison) a crap T/T, as then you'll hardly ever listen to your records, or indeed vice versa. That's why (as you also do), I ensure that all the source components available to me perform at a comparable level, sonically.
However, given the use of the best audiophile pressings I have on vinyl, my T/T still has a significant edge, in terms of performance, over any of my digital sources, as good and as enjoyable as those are in their own right :)
Marco.
I'm not sure I can hear any difference between iTunes playback and Amarra or Audirvana, or even BitPerfect. They just sound a little bit louder to me.
Further listening required.
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