View Full Version : 2m Black vs Denon DL-103
Has anyone compared these two cartridges?
Can you give me an opinion of which one you think sounds best and why?
I am just trying to decide if it is worth going down the Denon DL103 MC route or wether I should stick with the 2M Black?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Chalk and cheese.
I've had both and would say that, by the prevailing 'hifi' standards of things like detail retrieval, the 2M is better.
But, I much preferred listening to music with the 103.
If you like the 2m Black, then stick with it. It's a better match for your arm than the 103.
I can also see that having a detail-retrieving source would give the Crofts something to get their teeth into.
Nice system btw :) ... I wouldn't mess with it unless you are not happy.
Chalk and cheese.
I've had both and would say that, by the prevailing 'hifi' standards of things like detail retrieval, the 2M is better.
But, I much preferred listening to music with the 103.
If you like the 2m Black, then stick with it. It's a better match for your arm than the 103.
I can also see that having a detail-retrieving source would give the Crofts something to get their teeth into.
Nice system btw :) ... I wouldn't mess with it unless you are not happy.
Thanks for that advice Peter. I have enjoyed the 2M Black very much in my system for the last 2 years and in order to use the Denon 103 I would have to make a reasonable investment in a new cartridge, SUT and as you suggested my tonearm may not be as compatible.
I am however interested in going down this route as I have an itch to scratch and would like to try a MC cartridge without a massive outlay and the Denon was on my list as a cheap option. However if the Denon 103 is not a suitable match to my arm maybe I should save some cash and think of a more suitable MC cartridge?
I may well just replace my stylus on the 2M and continue with it although I would always be curious as to what I could be missing with a MC!
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 14:17
The 103 in standard form has a spherical stylus so a bit iffy as regards top end detail and tracking ability.
How about a HOMC such as the SAE1000LT?
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 14:45
I heard a Sumiko blackbird HOMC and thought it very nice. Generally though L.O types are better.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 14:46
Denon DL S1.
Denon DL S1.
Agree with you on this Ali - truly superb cartridge and relatively cheap, however is it a bit light in the bass or is this rectified with suitably matched SUT?
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 15:15
I thought the same, but that was using it on my Tecnoarm - I could never get it to sound right.
Using it on the Mission arm is a completely different story though, it sounds superb and there is no lack of bass at all. I think the many bass light reports on the net are people using the cart on arms that don't suit it. It's the most finicky cart I've used, it needs anal attention to detail when setting it up, but get it right and it is a great cart.
I'd suggest a head amp would be better than a SUT for this cart though, that or a valve MC stage with enough gain.
RobbieGong
08-01-2016, 15:16
Hi James, Just my tuppence worth but personally I’d look elsewhere in terms of an ‘improvement’. The Black in my experience is a stonking cart. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had the itch too, that’s the nature of the beast that is. However, unless you are gonna spend a good amount more then I believe you’ll get different and not necessarily better. As you know the Black isn’t flavoured it just gets about playing what is on the record retrieving oodles of the info on there. When my system has been at it’s best in terms of set up I have been astonished at the ‘honesty’ in which the Black presents the music. What I mean is no two recordings sounded the same – exactly !! each recording had its 'actual' sound not a flavour / obvious characteristic / signature sound. This was a revelation for me and addictive! Good recordings were just that, bad ones were revealed but the ‘music’ was always there. My system is currently going through a few big changes and I’ve been ampless for ages but the Black will most definitely remain. The one cart I hanker for is its bigger brother the Cadenza Black as I believe it does the same but with even better / more of the same but at a price. Obviously if you want something different then that’s fine. As I say, just my tuppence worth. :)
Hi James, Just my tuppence worth but personally I’d look elsewhere in terms of an ‘improvement’. The Black in my experience is a stonking cart. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had the itch too, that’s the nature of the beast that is. However, unless you are gonna spend a good amount more then I believe you’ll get different and not necessarily better. As you know the Black isn’t flavoured it just gets about playing what is on the record retrieving oodles on the info on there. When my system has been at it’s best in terms of set up I have been astonished at the ‘honesty’ in which the Black presents the music. What I mean is no two recordings sounded the same – exactly !! each recording had its sound not a flavour / obvious characteristic / signature sound. This was a revelation for me and addictive! Good recordings were just that, bad ones were revealed but the ‘music’ was always there. My system is currently going through a few big changes and I’ve been ampless for ages but the Black will most definitely remain. The one cart I hanker for is its bigger brother the Cadenza Black as I believe it does the same but with even better / more of the same but at a price. Obviously if you want something different then that’s fine. As I say, just my tuppence worth. :)
Good council I think Rob. I have had a suspicion that in order to better the 2M in my system which had real synergy with the Croft, I would need to go to something like the Cadenza Black or Bronze?
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 15:27
Not convinced they would better the DL S1 - don't let the relatively low price put you off.
RobbieGong
08-01-2016, 15:36
Not convinced they would better the DL S1 - don't let the relatively low price put you off.
Not really thinking subjective better but I think the word different would be more accurate and that's cool if that's what James is after. I'd have the Cadenza anyday over the DL S1 and that without having heard either :sofa: :)
FWIW as a Quintet Black owner I can recommend that it'll give you more of what you already have just with a little more detail and a little more refinement.
I was using an S1 until very recently. I certainly didn't find it lacking in bass but it's a very different animal altogether. In fairness it wasn't a great match for my tonearm but for me, although it could dig out amazing amounts of detail it lacked 'boogie' factor.
I agree that cheaper MC carts will likely leave you wanting compared to what you're used to.
I'd have the Cadenza anyday over the DL S1 and that without having heard either :sofa: :)
<Cough> Come round to mine, young man, and I'll educate you differently on that matter! ;)
The DL-S1, properly partnered and set-up, is a stunning sounding cartridge. Not easy to get the best out of it, though...
Marco.
2M Black or DL-103? It's a *very* different sound. For me, pretty much all Ortofon cartridges these days sound somewhat 'cold' and overtly 'hi-fi' in nature. A DL-103, however, heard at its absolute best (which, quite frankly, not many get to hear) is, to my ears, a fundamentally much more musical listen.
Indeed, I'd take my Shure M55E (with brand new NOS stylus) over the 2M Black... It's essentially about trading (ultimate) detail retrieval for musicality. Get a 103 *right*, however, and you don't lose very much at all in terms of the former, but are rewarded in SPADES with the latter, especially when listening to vintage jazz recordings or rock and pop. It boogies like a bastard! :eyebrows:
Marco (not a big fan of how most modern cartridges are 'voiced').
2M Black or DL-103? It's a *very* different sound. The latter however, heard at its absolute best (which, quite frankly, not many get to hear) is, to my ears, a fundamentally much more musical listen
See my experience is pretty much the exact opposite of that. But then again I'd wager not a single person on this forum likes the same music as me :-)
Proving yet again that one mans trash is another mans treasure.
Sure, Adam, it all boils down to your relevant experience, musical and sonic tastes. However, in terms of a DL-103, have you heard it on a high-mass 'S'-shaped 9 or 12" Japanese Tonearm, through a top-notch SUT and/or head amp, and into a top-notch valve MM phono stage?
If not, then, you haven't really heard it. Only by inserting it into the above set-up, as outlined, does the magic happen.... ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 16:43
I'm a fan of the 2M black. Very nice indeed and personally I'd put it miles above a DL-103....
I'd take MP3 above a Shure M55E!
The SAE1000LT is hardly new.
For something different for the 2M Black I am tempted by the AT150ANV, then I don't need to bother with SUTs and Head amps, meaning more money for the cartridge. I have a standard AT150MLX which I am using as we type, and it sounds more musical/less HiFi than the 2M Black.
It's a shame I don't live closer to you James, as you would be welcome to borrow the SAE1000LT for a listen in your system. Sure, it probably can't compete with a Cadenza Bronze or Black, but the outlay is substantially less.
That is the one thing Imdon't like about vinyl systems - it's very difficult to try a cartridge before committing to it financially.
I'm a fan of the 2M black. Very nice indeed and personally I'd put it miles above a DL-103....
I'd take MP3 above a Shure M55E!
Lol - then I shall demonstrate to you the errors of your ways at the next NEBO! ;)
:trust:
Marco.
RobbieGong
08-01-2016, 16:46
2M Black or DL-103? It's a *very* different sound. For me, pretty much all Ortofon cartridges these days sound somewhat 'cold' and overtly 'hi-fi' in nature. A DL-103, however, heard at its absolute best (which, quite frankly, not many get to hear) is, to my ears, a fundamentally much more musical listen.
Indeed, I'd take my Shure M55E (with brand new NOS stylus) over the 2M Black... It's essentially about trading (ultimate) detail retrieval for musicality. Get a 103 *right*, however, and you don't lose very much at all in terms of the former, but are rewarded in SPADES with the latter, especially when listening to vintage jazz recordings or rock and pop. It boogies like a bastard! :eyebrows:
Marco (not a big fan of how most modern cartridges are 'voiced').
Totally appreciate your comments especially your last one because if that's what you get then yeah can understand. My experience of the Black is absolutely musical as in if that's what's in those grooves then the Black retrieves it and delivers it beautifully. I just couldn't abide it any other way, remember I'm primerily a reggae and soul kind of guy, throw in some Steely Dan too ;)
No worries, Rob. Totally get that. However, let me assure you that a 103, properly set-up and partnered, does soul and reggae in a groovy as fuck way, conveying tremendous 'attack', bass weight and 'heft' such as you wouldn't believe! :peace: ;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
08-01-2016, 17:24
No worries, Rob. Totally get that. However, let me assure you that a 103, properly set-up and partnered, does soul and reggae in a groovy as fuck way, conveying tremendous 'attack', bass weight and 'heft' such as you wouldn't believe! :peace: ;)
Marco.
Lay off that 'stuf' Marco, no good'll come of it :lol: :) - joke aside, I hear ya, hopefully I'll hear 103 day. I do get the impression they boogie like a right one :)
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 17:26
Lay off that 'stuf' Marco, no good'll come of it :lol: :)
I suspected some "serious shit" could be involved when I saw the M55E recommended! :D
RobbieGong
08-01-2016, 17:30
I suspected some "serious shit" could be involved when I saw the M55E recommended! :D
:lol:
I suspected some "serious shit" could be involved when I saw the M55E recommended! :D
Lol - for your homework, read onwards from post #77, here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40254-Consider-the-dear-old-Shure-97xe-it-s-%A370!-And-it-s-great/page8
;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 17:35
I had one when I was about 14 ;) A Grado FCE+1 blew it out of the water! It was Grado's then budget offering but much better than their current stuff.
Well, you'd remember that shit, I guess, because you're an old git! :D
Trust me, used in a modern context, fitted to a top-notch T/T, phono stage, etc, they sound great... Read that thread I linked to, and I'll demonstrate the point to you at NEBO 7 :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 17:41
Have you heard much of their current stuff Jez?
The SAE1000LT is hardly new.
For something different for the 2M Black I am tempted by the AT150ANV, then I don't need to bother with SUTs and Head amps, meaning more money for the cartridge. I have a standard AT150MLX which I am using as we type, and it sounds more musical/less HiFi than the 2M Black.
It's a shame I don't live closer to you James, as you would be welcome to borrow the SAE1000LT for a listen in your system. Sure, it probably can't compete with a Cadenza Bronze or Black, but the outlay is substantially less.
That is the one thing Imdon't like about vinyl systems - it's very difficult to try a cartridge before committing to it financially.
Your right there, it is a tad expensive if you make a mistake!
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 17:47
Have you heard much of their current stuff Jez?
Just a couple of the £60 - £100 models. I was most unimpressed to say the least! The old FCE+1 was only £13 IIRC and was quite a giant killer. Of course that would have bought loads of the best thorn needles for the gramophone back then..... I remember when this was all fields you know :wheniwasaboy:
<Cough> Come round to mine, young man, and I'll educate you differently on that matter! ;)
The DL-S1, properly partnered and set-up, is a totally stunning sounding cartridge. Not easy to get the best out of it, though...
Marco.
Yep definitely agree after hearing your DL-S1 Marco, it is a seriously great sounding MC and I would find it hard to believe a Cadenza Black would be much better at 3 times the price!!?:eek:
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 17:54
James, re my offer of the loan of head amp and SUT's, regarding the DL S1, it may be I don't have a lack of bass because I'm using a head amp, I've not tried it with the SUT's as yet, or indeed direct into the Firebottle. The bass light thing may be because of folk using SUT's with it and because of it's low output and 30 ohm internal impedance...
James, re my offer of the loan of head amp and SUT's, regarding the DL S1, it may be I don't have a lack of bass because I'm using a head amp, I've not tried it with the SUT's as yet, or indeed direct into the Firebottle. The bass light thing may be because of folk using SUT's with it and because of it's low output and 30 ohm internal impedance...
Ok thanks for that info Ali. I am intending to use a SUT. Obviously I heard the fabulous DLS1 through Marcos head amp, so this is probably the magical combo!
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 18:01
Sounds great through my Denon head amp too, though I've done a fair bit of work to it.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 18:03
Is there a particular reason for going the SUT route rather than head amp?
Only ask as my Denon compared well to SUT's at five or more times the price..
However, in terms of a DL-103, have you heard it on a high-mass 'S'-shaped 9 or 12" Japanese Tonearm, through a top-notch SUT and/or head amp, and into a top-notch valve MM phono stage?
If not, then, you haven't really heard it. Only by inserting it into the above set-up, as outlined, does the magic happen.... ;)
Well if I'm honest Marco that does come across as a little patronising.
To answer your question, I evaluate every cartridge I buy (or any upgrade for that matter) in a huge range of systems (Turntables, arms, SUTs, Amps, speakers) to ensure I can form a balanced opinion.
Quite simply, the sound of the Denon carts I've owned (103, 103R, 304, 110 & S1) does not appeal to me.
Because my taste is not the same yours does not mean I haven't 'heard' them.
RobbieGong
08-01-2016, 18:18
Well if I'm honest Marco that does come across as a little patronising.
To answer your question, I evaluate every cartridge I buy (or any upgrade for that matter) in a huge range of systems (Turntables, arms, SUTs, Amps, speakers) to ensure I can form a balanced opinion.
Quite simply, the sound of the Denon carts I've owned (103, 103R, 304, 110 & S1) does not appeal to me.
Because my taste is not the same yours does not mean I haven't 'heard' them.
And that for me here is the crux of it - different which I alluded to from the offset. James (like most of us guys tend to) is likely seeking better. I suspect he'll get different, whether he likes that or not is a whole associated can of wormage ;)
2M Black or DL-103? It's a *very* different sound. For me, pretty much all Ortofon cartridges these days sound somewhat 'cold' and overtly 'hi-fi' in nature. A DL-103, however, heard at its absolute best (which, quite frankly, not many get to hear) is, to my ears, a fundamentally much more musical listen.
Indeed, I'd take my Shure M55E (with brand new NOS stylus) over the 2M Black... It's essentially about trading (ultimate) detail retrieval for musicality. Get a 103 *right*, however, and you don't lose very much at all in terms of the former, but are rewarded in SPADES with the latter, especially when listening to vintage jazz recordings or rock and pop. It boogies like a bastard! :eyebrows:
Marco (not a big fan of how most modern cartridges are 'voiced').
I'm not really sure there's anything wrong with the Ortofon generators themselves, I quite liked the sound of the Ortofon OM Pro.
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 19:06
Is there a particular reason for going the SUT route rather than head amp?
Only ask as my Denon compared well to SUT's at five or more times the price..
The only advantage SUT's have is in noise. Therefore with stupidly low output cartridges a good SUT would give a better signal to noise ratio.
Good head amps will beat pretty much any SUT.... but there are not many truly good head amps around (I hear the Arkless Electronics ones are very good.... :eyebrows: :D) and an average SUT will normally beat an average head amp. The latter is probably why SUT's seem to have a reputation on forums for being the best solution.
The market for head amps is a small subset of an already small constituency of people using MC carts into a phono stage without an MC input... Not really worth commercially pursuing... hence my selling the prototype one I built at a reduced price as it's better than having it laying around forever.
I have an all valve head amp I built years ago as well but they are even less commercially sensible! Only valves selected as the lowest noise available are suitable and if anyone had to ask the cost.... well it wouldn't be for them.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 19:10
Good info Jez, though the question was directed at James, just wondered why SUT's were his choice in particular, when a head amp will work well with pretty much any MC.
After further consideration, on your arm/TT, I'd be running a Cartridgeman Music Maker ... not an mc, but about the best I've heard on a 'lightweight' arm.
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 19:32
Good info Jez, though the question was directed at James, just wondered why SUT's were his choice in particular, when a head amp will work well with pretty much any MC.
Ah... sorry Ali I took it as a general question.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 19:34
Aye no bother. :-)
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 19:36
After further consideration, on your arm/TT, I'd be running a Cartridgeman Music Maker ... not an mc, but about the best I've heard on a 'lightweight' arm.
Well that's the thing, I'm using a Mission 774, that's pretty lightweight. Works really well with the Denon.
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 19:39
Well that's the thing, I'm using a Mission 774, that's pretty lightweight. Works really well with the Denon.
One of my all time fave arms that. They seem to get the best out of any cart no matter what weight or compliance!
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 19:50
Aye, that's been my findings so far Jez, seems to work really well with anything. A stonking arm that can be had for around 200 quid on the bay. If that's not a bargain I dunno what is.
walpurgis
08-01-2016, 19:53
One of my all time fave arms that. They seem to get the best out of any cart no matter what weight or compliance!
Yup! That's dead right. I use one all the time and have spare examples. They work fine with anything from an ultra high compliance ADC to a very low compliance Decca or MC. They sound great too.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 19:56
Not sure what I could replace it with that would sound significantly better..
Good info Jez, though the question was directed at James, just wondered why SUT's were his choice in particular, when a head amp will work well with pretty much any MC.
I have been advised by a very long term Croft dealer that a SUT would work better with the Croft phono stage rather than a head amp. I am open to trying a head amp however.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 19:58
Does the Croft phono stage have high gain?
Does the Croft phono stage have high gain?
It does Ali.
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 20:09
I have been advised by a very long term Croft dealer that a SUT would work better with the Croft phono stage rather than a head amp. I am open to trying a head amp however.
Nope.... There's no reason any phono stage is more or less suited to either...
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 20:21
Well.. Maybe if the stage has high gain already, adding a head amp with a healthy output may over egg the pudding a little?
I think the only way to tell is to suck it and see guys. Theory only goes so far as we all know.:)
I have been advised by a very long term Croft dealer that a SUT would work better with the Croft phono stage rather than a head amp. I am open to trying a head amp however.
Well, current experience suggests otherwise. My Paul Hynes head amp is significantly better with the range of cartridges I use, than any SUT I've had - *but* that might change again when the K&K SUT arrives.
However, I certainly wouldn't agree with the rather black and white view espoused by the dealer.
Marco.
Well if I'm honest Marco that does come across as a little patronising.
To answer your question, I evaluate every cartridge I buy (or any upgrade for that matter) in a huge range of systems (Turntables, arms, SUTs, Amps, speakers) to ensure I can form a balanced opinion.
Quite simply, the sound of the Denon carts I've owned (103, 103R, 304, 110 & S1) does not appeal to me.
Because my taste is not the same yours does not mean I haven't 'heard' them.
Apologies, Adam. I didn't mean it to come across that way. What I meant is that the 103 is a rather difficult cartridge to hear properly in a modern context, as it harks from an era where the 'rules' were rather different :)
Therefore, the only way to hear it properly (as it was intended to be heard by the manufacturer), and thus reveal its true potential, is to partner it with the ancillaries it would've originally been used with back in the day, as it were. Honestly, I've converted quite a few '103 detractors' by letting them hear it in that context :cool:
Marco.
anubisgrau
08-01-2016, 23:04
Well, current experience suggests otherwise. My Paul Hynes head amp is significantly better with the range of cartridges I use, than any SUT I've had - *but* that might change again when the K&K SUT arrives.
hold your breath.....:eyebrows:
Clive197
09-01-2016, 11:17
Hi James, Just my tuppence worth but personally I’d look elsewhere in terms of an ‘improvement’. The Black in my experience is a stonking cart. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had the itch too, that’s the nature of the beast that is. However, unless you are gonna spend a good amount more then I believe you’ll get different and not necessarily better. As you know the Black isn’t flavoured it just gets about playing what is on the record retrieving oodles of the info on there. When my system has been at it’s best in terms of set up I have been astonished at the ‘honesty’ in which the Black presents the music. What I mean is no two recordings sounded the same – exactly !! each recording had its 'actual' sound not a flavour / obvious characteristic / signature sound. This was a revelation for me and addictive! Good recordings were just that, bad ones were revealed but the ‘music’ was always there. My system is currently going through a few big changes and I’ve been ampless for ages but the Black will most definitely remain. The one cart I hanker for is its bigger brother the Cadenza Black as I believe it does the same but with even better / more of the same but at a price. Obviously if you want something different then that’s fine. As I say, just my tuppence worth. :)
+1. Having owned a 2M Black and currently run a Cadenza Black I absolutely agree with Robert's post. The Cadenza Black does everything the 2M Black does and goes on to remove any harshness giving a smooth, detailed and incisive performance, sadly at a price but well worth the investment.
+1. Having owned a 2M Black and currently run a Cadenza Black I absolutely agree with Robert's post. The Cadenza Black does everything the 2M Black does and goes on to remove any harshness giving a smooth, detailed and incisive performance, sadly at a price but well worth the investment.
Interesting you mentioned harshness Clive, I have found the 2M to be a bit edgy and spotlit in its quest for portraying detail. Unlike the Shure M55e i am currently listening too.:)
Ahem! :exactly:
;)
Marco.
Interesting you mentioned harshness Clive, I have found the 2M to be a bit edgy and spotlit in its quest for portraying detail. Unlike the Shure M55e i am currently listening too.:)
I've read the 2M black has a peak in its response when used with the traditional 47k/100pf loading. Apparently it can be smoothed out by tweaking these...think there is a thread on the Steve Hoffman forum detailing this....
Found it:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ortofon-2m-black-frequency-response-charts.312499/
RobbieGong
09-01-2016, 14:53
Ahem! :exactly:
;)
Marco.
Whoa Marco !!! hold ya horses fella. No properly set up Black will ever display any manner of harshness (unless that's what's on the recording). That is just not a trait associated with a properly set up Black, absolutely not :nono:. I've lived with the Black for years and set up right it is magical - really. I've said it here many times and used words like realism, air, separation of parts, natural texture, timbre, holographic, lifelike etc etc. I just wouldn't be that sad to do so if it wasn't so and I certainly would not live with a cart that had any manner of harshness as a trait :scratch: :mental: Without going over the same stuf I have so many times / old ground. Here;s just a small sample of exactly what my experience of the Black is, hence my genuine love of the thing and why it will remain a key component in my system and quest for genuine musical nirvana (until I can afford the Cadenza Black of course for more of the same natural / honest and magical portrayal of recorded music expression and performance) ;)
HIFI NEWS OUTSTANDING PRODUCT (WHAT HIFI SOUND & VISION)
Outstanding Product' in Hi-Fi News, March 2011.
Awarded 5 Stars in What Hi-Fi?, April 2011.
Hi-Fi News, Yearbook 2011
Reviewed by:
Score: 'Outstanding Product'
Comments of Note:
"... the two best [cartridges in the 2m range] - the £280 2m Bronze with a Nude Fine Line stylus and this 2m Black model - are formed from a more rigid Noryl plastic/glass compound as well as employing better 'engines' featuring split pole pins with silver-plated copper wire."
"When set-up, the Ortofon 2m Black was immediately engaging, sounding powerful and vivid."
"But it was natural recordings of full orchestra that confirmed that the 2m Black is a stellar moving-magnet cartridge."
"The 2m Black delivers a holographic imagery worthy of the most sophisticated vinyl replay systems."
What Hi-Fi?, April 2011
Reviewed by:
Score: 5 Stars
Comments of Note:
"... it showed real power and dynamics, as well as crisp timing."
"The most transparent and detailed stylus here...handles subtlety well, with vocals especially possessing supreme inflection and insight."
"The midrange is expressive, and the treble is insightful and vivid."
Hi-Fi News, March 2011
Reviewed by:
Score: 'Outstanding Product'
Comments of Note:
"...the Ortofon 2M Black was immediately engaging, sounding powerful and vivid."
"Further listening showed the Ortofon to be highly revealing, with fabulous clarity and openness..."
"...the regal piano chords sounded full-bodied and startlingly real."
"...the seismic bass...was again tight and solid. Deep bass...was textured, detailed and extraordinarily clear."
Hi-Fi World, November 2007
Reviewed by: Noel Keywood
Score:
Comments of Note:
"The 2M Black has a silky smooth presentation...no glare or treble emphasis..."
"The 2M Black has to be one of the best moving magnet cartridges currently available...one of the most practical."
"totally cohesive, smooth and easy sound...wonderful insight and dynamics."
Ahem, Ahem ! :exactly:
Touché ;) :ner: :)
Lol... "Harshness" was Jim's word, not mine. I was merely agreeing with the "spotlit" bit, which is what I've heard whenever I've listened to a 2M Black, and other modern cartridges of its ilk.
Anyway, at the end of the day, you hear what you hear and like what you like :)
You should remember that I'm a fan of very few modern cartridges, as one glance at the list of the ones I use indicates. If you ever get a chance to hear a Nagaoka MP500, or any other quality Nags, in a good system, you'll get a handle on the type of sound I prefer from an MM cartridge, or indeed any cartridge, and I'd expect an M55, fitted with a Jico SAS stylus to be in a similar ballpark :cool:
Marco.
I do agree with much of what you have said about the 2M Rob but none the less I agree with Marco it is a bit Hifi sounding but that's not a bad thing if that is what your looking for. It's a bit like some modern speakers which sound impressive because they have great bass and extreme detail in the top end but no midrange or soul. A lot of people would not like my speakers because they don't sound Hifi either.:)
I have always had issues with my 2M and over 2 years have tamed some of the top end harshness with mucho adjustments with my tonearm but unfortunately it may ultimately be a slight incompatibility with my pre amp.
I will always keep my 2M but I am now looking around at other cartridges and have found the M55e more to my liking as a MM but I intend to go further into the realm of MC cartridges and to that end I am looking for something that will improve on the 2M black in my system but that is another ball game altogether! :)
The 2M is certainly one of the best MM I have heard but musically it sounds a bit sterile compared to the M55e I have just started listening to listen too. A perfect combination for me would be something Inbetween the two and that's what I intend to look for. :lol:
A Nagaoka MP500 is that very animal... See here: http://www.analogueseduction.net/nagaoka-cartridges/nagaoka-mp-500-cartridge.html
It's a cartridge for genuine music lovers, which also ticks all the 'hi-fi boxes'. However, try fitting a Jico SAS to your M55 first, and see what you think :)
Marco.
A Nagaoka MP500 is that very animal... See here: http://www.analogueseduction.net/nagaoka-cartridges/nagaoka-mp-500-cartridge.html
It's a cartridge for genuine music lovers, which also ticks all the 'hi-fi boxes'. However, try fitting a Jico SAS to your M55 first, and see what you think :)
Marco.
The JICO SAS is certainly a cheaper route, not that I'm tight! :lol: After this I intend to look for a MC and will gladly welcome any help with this. Obviously my budget needs to be stretched a bit more for this.:)
I
RobbieGong
09-01-2016, 16:41
I do agree with much of what you have said about the 2M Rob but none the less I agree with Marco it is a bit Hifi sounding but that's not a bad thing if that is what your looking for. It's a bit like some modern speakers which sound impressive because they have great bass and extreme detail in the top end but no midrange or soul. A lot of people would not like my speakers because they don't sound Hifi either.:)
I have always had issues with my 2M and over 2 years have tamed some of the top end harshness with mucho adjustments with my tonearm but unfortunately it may ultimately be a slight incompatibility with my pre amp.
I will always keep my 2M but I am now looking around at other cartridges and have found the M55e more to my liking as a MM but I intend to go further into the realm of MC cartridges and to that end I am looking for something that will improve on the 2M black in my system but that is another ball game altogether! :)
The 2M is certainly one of the best MM I have heard but musically it sounds a bit sterile compared to the M55e I have just started listening to listen too. A perfect combination for me would be something Inbetween the two and that's what I intend to look for. :lol:
Hi James, The main frustrating thing for me with the Black and I've read this a number of times from others, is that it can be a bitch to set up. This is something that does my head in with it big time. When it's not right and I mean even when it's 'close' but not right there I've experienced, sterility, hifi and just awful end of side. The frustration for me is worsened by the fact I find that nailing that 'spot on' point in set up very hard work and very exhausting. I've spent literally weeks as have other members i've spoke to here fiddling, re-setting, re-trying to get that 'nailed it' spot where the magic and rightness lies with it when I feel like the musical presentation really cant get much better - utter joy ! And that's the great fat juicy carrot with this cart that makes me hang on and not let go despite the pain :mental: Anywaze, all the best with the conundrum, you may like the other regarded flagship mm, the Nagaoka MP500 which has a different more romantic flavour from what I've read, that might just float your boat. Either way as I've heard Marco say and I totally agree is that there comes a time when you just have to take a punt / scratch the itch in order to move on / get a better understanding of what you do and dont like - have fun ! ;)
RobbieGong
09-01-2016, 19:05
No worries James. Not trying to make it even more difficult or muddy the water but do also read as much as you can on the other mm big guns, namely the ClearAudio Maestro, The Audio Note IQ3, as well as the Nag' MP 500 and the Denon 103 of course. You'll find if you dig enough on the net loads of customer reviews, hifi forum posts, hifi mag reviews and so on where common themes, traits or characteristics for each cart should materialise. As a result you'll find yourself naturally drawn to one or two as a shortlist ;)
The Denon 103 seems to be very commonly appreciated and a possible good first step into MC? This maybe my next Hifi adventure although I may indeed go for something higher up the MC food chain.
RobbieGong
10-01-2016, 10:01
The Denon 103 seems to be very commonly appreciated and a possible good first step into MC? This maybe my next Hifi adventure although I may indeed go for something higher up the MC food chain.
Hey James, If thats the case then the ZYX R50 Bloom absolutely has to be considered. It's apparently a superb mc at it's price point. Walpurgis (Geoff) here speaks extremely highly of this cart (as do reviews) and he sure knows his hifi onions :)
Hey James, If thats the case then the ZYX R50 Bloom absolutely has to be considered. It's apparently a superb mc at it's price point. Walpurgis (Geoff) here speaks extremely highly of this cart (as do reviews) and he sure knows his hifi onions :)
Yes Geoff has mentioned this cartridge before and as he has a vast experience with so many cartridges I believe it must be one on the list.:)
Floyddroid
10-01-2016, 20:28
James, re my offer of the loan of head amp and SUT's, regarding the DL S1, it may be I don't have a lack of bass because I'm using a head amp, I've not tried it with the SUT's as yet, or indeed direct into the Firebottle. The bass light thing may be because of folk using SUT's with it and because of it's low output and 30 ohm internal impedance...
I've been using my 103 straight into my Firebottle and it sounds pretty good.
Floyddroid
10-01-2016, 20:34
The Denon 103 seems to be very commonly appreciated and a possible good first step into MC? This maybe my next Hifi adventure although I may indeed go for something higher up the MC food chain.
The Denon DL110 is worth a punt too. Heard one recently at Rich B's and i was really impressed. You wouldn't need a SUT either. Just a little more bounce than your 2M black which majors on detail. The 110 is a good all rounder.
Cheers Steve everything is under consideration at the moment and the Denon cartridges especially are on my list, might even plumb for the DS-L1! Do you remember how stunning it sounded at NEBO5?:)
Floyddroid
10-01-2016, 21:06
Cheers Steve everything is under consideration at the moment and the Denon cartridges especially are on my list, might even plumb for the DS-L1! Do you remember how stunning it sounded at NEBO5?:)
Indeed I did. Bare in mind that the system it was being used had to deal with driving a huge expanse and there was no lack of Bass. I would have one tomorrow but they are as rare as rocking horse shit.
Ali Tait
10-01-2016, 23:33
I've been using my 103 straight into my Firebottle and it sounds pretty good.
Yeah, I will give it a go, need to rearrange the system to try it though.
VFM and performance-wise, I simply can't think of another cartridge which can hold a candle to the Zyx ZR-50 Bloom-H in MC-land. Would also recommend the Benz Glider (although it's a fair bit pricier) but if you're after improving on the 2M Black, you wont do it with most budget high output MCs. It's true that the Black can be quite detailed almost verging on analytical but it is also true that most users don't have them loaded properly for capacitance (they like between 350 to 500pF to get the best and give a less analytical balance).
walpurgis
11-01-2016, 18:19
VFM and performance-wise, I simply can't think of another cartridge which can hold a candle to the Zyx ZR-50 Bloom-H in MC-land.
Yes. It's amazing at the price (in some ways at any price).
Yes. It's amazing at the price (in some ways at any price).
Hi Geoff, did you use a high output or low ZR50 BloomH and which SUT did you find worked best with it?
walpurgis
11-01-2016, 19:46
Hi Geoff, did you use a high output or low ZR50 BloomH and which SUT did you find worked best with it?
Yeah. I've got a Bloom H in my collection. It worked just fine with all my SUTs. Art Audio, Fidelity Research FRT-3, Osawa OS-100T and Luxman AD8000/8020 (I no longer own the first two by the way). If you're after an SUT, be careful what you get. Most of the cheaper second hand ones are crap and just destroy the MC experience.
Yeah. I've got a Bloom H in my collection. It worked just fine with all my SUTs. Art Audio, Fidelity Research FRT-3, Osawa OS-100T and Luxman AD8000/8020 (I no longer own the first two by the way). If you're after an SUT, be careful what you get. Most of the cheaper second hand ones are crap and just destroy the MC experience.
Agree totally. Good used SUTs can be had for aorund £200 with a little searching though. Bargain basement "entry level" SUTs are best avoided completely. The magic imho starts north of £400 in most cases if buying new. I can highly recommend Albarrys MCA11 head amp as an alternative to a SUT. Superb S/N performance, battery powered and adjustable loading. Good, punchy and highly musical headamp with very low noise floor for very reasonable money. Just plug into a good phonostage and you're away. I use the 0.48mV (what ZYX call the "H" version) so it isn't really a high output, just a higher output than their 0.24mV version which needs a lot more gain and more gain = better quality can mean a more expensive SUT/Headamp! The 0.48mV version is the one to go for as Geoff says, it works well into most commonly available SUTs and headamps.
Adam,
Totally agree. I thought the Thorens TD321 and SME3009R were the perfect match for the DL-103 until I got it hooked to a part Japanese system.
A Micro-Seiki DD-5 turntable with MA-303 tonearm via an Elac MC-21 Class A SUT into a Musical Fidelity X-LPS v8 phono stage. This is then fed into a Fisher X-101-B and a Wharfedale Rosedale. Then the magic happened!
paulf-2007
25-12-2019, 13:31
How about a HOMC such as the SAE1000LT?
I have one and had it good while, not currently used but very well regarded. Was just thinking to mount it in a headshell and have another listen.
Adam,
Totally agree. I thought the Thorens TD321 and SME3009R were the perfect match for the DL-103 until I got it hooked to a part Japanese system.
A Micro-Seiki DD-5 turntable with MA-303 tonearm via an Elac MC-21 Class A SUT into a Musical Fidelity X-LPS v8 phono stage. This is then fed into a Fisher X-101-B and a Wharfedale Rosedale. Then the magic happened!
Daman I havent given up on the 103R yet.
I have a heavy Jelco HS30 headshell for it and will try it on a 3012 mk2 and later in a Jelco 850S, when i get time to install it.
Looking forward to the magic the likes of Marco and you go on about.
I have never heard the 2M Black
SM, am eagerly waiting for the outcome. Will be as expected.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Floyddroid
30-12-2019, 06:28
Marmite. Having owned a couple of 103's I found them ok. However, after a while I found them a little boring. I found the 110 a lot better and I have one bolted to my VPI as we speak. The 110 seems to work well with the arm too and betters the 2M blue I have.
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