'Thin' sound....

[RambleOn]

I'm 58 years old & lucky enough to be married to a beautiful lady 17 years younger than me!
When we first met she had no interest in my type of music (classic 60's 70's & 80's rock, blues rock etc) nor in the wonderful world of vinyl. After we married, my hifi system & vinyl records were confined to the attic! Now, some 18 years later, she is really into the same type of music as I am (the brainwashing finally paid off!) and agreed we should 'revive' the hifi system & vinyl collection. Over the past 6 months or so, I have replaced my 1986 Cyrus One amp (25 watts per channel) with the new Quad Vena (with bluetooth) integrated amplifier (45 watts per channel) and my old Tannoy M20 Gold standmount loudspeakers have been ousted in favour of a new pair of Tannoy DC6T SE floorstanders. I still have my 1986 Revolver turntable (standard arm as fitted) with an Audio Technica 95E MM cartridge. I also have an Edwards Audio Apprentice MM phono stage (the Cyrus One had a built-in MM/MC phono stage) and a Cyrus CD6s cd player, all connected via Chord Cobra interconnects, with my 1986 Mission speaker cables still in use.
However, even though I've spent all this money upgrading I can't help but feel that there's something 'missing' from the overall sound. It seems a bit 'thin' compared to my old system and I have to turn the Quad up to 7/10 to get anywhere near the level of sound I was getting from the (supposedly) less powerful Cyrus One, which I never had to push beyond 3/10 to get beefy volume/output.
My question to the Forum members is therefore this; What could the problem/s be?!!

[struth]

Assuming its with any source then its probably the speaker sensitivity. The golds were a sensitive design at about 9edb i thi!k while the dc6 is about 87db so thats probably going to be where your finding the probs. Think the dc6 is a av speaker so may rewuire a bit of oomph.
The phono stage output may also have something to do with it. Pity you dont have the standmounts as if you put them back in it would prove or disprove this.

[Roy S]

I've got your speakers bigger brothers, DC10Ts and they do like some watts up them. I've tried them with a Quad 303 & an MF integrated but they sounded much better with bridged Crown 1500 XLSs (over 1000 watts per channel). Currently using them with Quad Elite monoblocks at a more sensible 150 watts per channel (more refined than the Crowns).

[Macca]

The Quad amp is rated at 90w per channel I would have thought that would be enough power unless the room is huge.

But the CD player is a Cyrus which tend to be voiced quite lean and the cartridge is an AT95E so likewise.

The old M20 were quite a rich sounding speaker as I recall so they probably used to balance things out.

I'd change the cartridge to a Nagaoka or a Shure, or similar and get a different CD player or add an offboard DAC to it, one that will give a richer balance.

[robertzombie]

How are your speakers positioned in your room? Do you have any room treatments?

[jandl100]

The Quad Vena is 45wpc, and is said to be quite beefy, so should have no problems driving 87dB speakers like your new Tannoys which are said to have a good bass.
As Macca said, the Cyrus cdp will be a bit lightweight as will the AT95 cartridge.
I do wonder if you didn't just have lucky synergy previously with the lightweight front end (which you still have) matching the rest of the kit to give you sound you enjoyed, while now with more evenly balanced gear the front end is producing a thin sound.

I think you should upgrade the AT95 anyway - it's a long way behind the rest of the gear. And a used Beresford DAC, for example, can probably be had for £100 or so.
I reckon that would sort you.

[struth]

I think he is complaining about a lack of volume as well. as he now has to turn dial to 7 instead of 3 before.

[jandl100]

Ah. OK.
a higher setting on the volume control, which is a just a different overall system gain and to be expected with less efficient speakers and maybe a different gain law on the amp's volume control. ... 7/10 does seem a long way up, though. :scratch: - maybe he likes to play it LOUD! :D

[Spectral Morn]

Photos of the room and how its all set up would be helpful.

[RambleOn]

Thanks Jerry. I had thought the same thing re upgrading the cartridge - any recommendations bearing in mind I like rock/blues music (Led Zep, Free, Muse, Joe Bonamassa, Beth Hart etc)? My budget would be circa £150.
Cheers!

[RambleOn]

Hi Grant, I actually do still have the M20's in the attic (and the Cyrus One amp!) - one of the tweeters has blown so not sure if reconnecting them into the new system would prove anything?

[RambleOn]

Hi Neil, the room is 26feet long and 9 feet wide with a limestone floor. Speakers are 18 inches off the rear (narrow) wall and 5 feet apart. There are no curtains, just blinds, and a large oak dining table and 8 leather chairs. I'll try and upload pictures later if I can!

[RambleOn]

Thanks for this Martin, can you be more specific on the actual cartridge you would recommend for my type of music (Led Zeppelin, Free, ZZTop, Joe Bonamassa, Beth Hart etc)?
Cheers

[RambleOn]

Hi Robert, not sure what you mean by 'room treatments'?

[Macca]

Thanks for this Martin, can you be more specific on the actual cartridge you would recommend for my type of music (Led Zeppelin, Free, ZZTop, Joe Bonamassa, Beth Hart etc)?
Cheers

That's my taste in music too and my preference is for Nagaoka cartridges. Trouble is cartridge choice is quite personal and you can't really try before you buy. Nags have a bit of 'body' to their sound; for me they sound like I expect vinyl to sound. Ortofons and Audio Technicas on the whole tend to be a little thinner sounding and more analytical/clinical. I think a Nagaoka MP110 is within your budget.

[SPS]

Hi Grant, I actually do still have the M20's in the attic (and the Cyrus One amp!) - one of the tweeters has blown so not sure if reconnecting them into the new system would prove anything?

I would try the old cyrus one in your new system, i remember they had a very good sound, better than many modern amps but give it half an hour to warm up before you judge it.
My lad had a modern cyrus cd player thats a little bass light.

[RambleOn]

Cheers Martin, I'll have a look at the Nagoaka......

[chris_s]

Michael - funnily enough, i've had similar issues having gone from a pair of Tannoy Profile 632's (which are technically bookshelf speakers) on Atacama weighted stands to a new pair of DC6t SE' Floorstanders and have also had that "something's missing" feeling since i got them (expecting the DC6t SE's to be a whole lot better). I've yet to play with my system to work it out. Literally the only thing i've changed is the speakers!

With the 632's, i upgraded to the Quad Pre and Amp from an Onkyo surround AV Amp, which absolutely brought them alive on a whole new level (i had my "wow" moment = night/day difference), but feel like things have gone backwards a bit with moving to the the DC6t's.

My setup is predominantly SL1200Mk2 Turntable-> Ortofon 2m Bronze -> Firebottle Plus -> Quad34 MkII Pre -> Quad 306 Amp -> Beresford Speaker/Amp Selector -> Tannoy DC6t SE

As a starter, i've orderd a Shure M55e, (mainly because of Marco's waxing lyrical about them :) ) to see if that helps improve things or at least give a more pleasurable sound (i find the 2m Bronze a little too bright even after 100+ hours). Failing that, i'm next considering playing with Speaker cable...

But odd that it's just not happened as expected with simply swapping the speakers with, what should be already, a decent system in place.....

Chris.

[jandl100]

Hmm. Given what Chris has just posted maybe it's the speakers that are the problem. In my researches on your behalf I came across postings from 2 new owners who planned to get subwoofers! It's not what the reviews say, though.

[jandl100]

Cartridge upgrade for rock/pop? I agree with Macca, Nagaoka is a good bet. Ortofon also well worth looking at.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil, the room is 26feet long and 9 feet wide with a limestone floor. Speakers are 18 inches off the rear (narrow) wall and 5 feet apart. There are no curtains, just blinds, and a large oak dining table and 8 leather chairs. I'll try and upload pictures later if I can!

Massive space, hard reflective surfaces, no damping of acoustic. How you describe the sound is how I would expect it to sound. You need a big rug infront of where the speakers are, wall hangings or acoustic panels (can be bought now and look like framed pictures) and fill it with book shelves etc.

There may well be a system mis match but your room isn't an ideal place to get a natural, even sound.

[struth]

I would try the old cyrus one in your new system, i remember they had a very good sound, better than many modern amps but give it half an hour to warm up before you judge it.
My lad had a modern cyrus cd player thats a little bass light.

Worth a go with the old speaks and new amp. It will give you a good idea as to the new speakers and if they are drawing it back. See if you get more ooomph at a lower vol control level and how the bass feels. The tweeter being out wont matter too much in a test.
Coukd also try ahe cyrus with new speakers

[larky]

I have had a pair of DC6t SE for 12 months now and have tried various different ways of setting them up.
Amps used are a pioneer AV amp and a Croft at about 35w, rasp/pidac.

First thing to go were the links on the speaker posts, replaced with some spare van damme 4mm blue, same as speakers wires.
Next was positioning, all the reviews and the manual say they need 30cm + from back wall, i have found half that is best to re-enforce low frequencies, with slight toe in. Bass is not a problem with these, I also have a DC6 SE as a center channel and with all three fronts set to large, movies with explosions, well no sub needed really.

After seeing this thread I thought I would have anther play around. Removing the spikes and sitting plinth/base of the speaker directly on carpeted floor. And...well big improvement, bottom end much richer, bass guitars now sound like bass guitars!
Norah's Wish i could - the violin before was just there, but now is more prominent, as in " hey there's a violin, never noticed that before" moment.

I know it is going to be difficult with the limestone floor, but worth a try with a bit of old felt or carpet under the speakers and try moving them back a bit.

[hifi_dave]

A lightly furnished room with no curtains, rugs and a limestone floor is going to sound hard, bright and confused. It needs curtains, wall hangings and a rug at least.

You can tinker around with the system but the sound will never be balanced.

[Macca]

Is this the same room that the old system with the Tannoy M20 sounded fine in?

[wee tee cee]

An easy way to see if the room is the problem is to pull all the duvets and pillows off the beds and place them on the floor/over the table/anywhere hard and shiny and then play some tunes.

If it sounds better you maybe have to follow the rug advice/table cloth etc-room treatment.

(might be wise to do this with yer missus out in case she comes home and calls the local mental health team thinking you have flipped!!! Did this at a mates house whos missus thought the minimal aesthetic was the ticket-house sounded like an empty swimming pool )

[RambleOn]

Yes Martin, same room & actually sounded pretty good with the 'old' system - good thumping bass etc, no harshness at all.

[RambleOn]

Thanks for this Pete - I'll give your suggestion a try before splashing out on a new cartridge!

[RambleOn]

Ha Ha! I like it! Might give this a try Tony, but definitely when the missus is not about!!

[RambleOn]

Thanks again Grant, I'll have to do as you suggest to confirm that it's the speakers that are the issue here.....

[RambleOn]

Thanks Dave, appreciate your comments. The confusing thing is that my 'old' system sounded much beefier, in the same room! But no doubt that extra floor/wall coverings would soften the overall sound.....

[RambleOn]

Appreciate your comments Neil, thanks.