View Full Version : Sl-1200G available summer 2016
PaulStewart
05-01-2016, 19:24
in case no one has posted this link
http://www.technics.com/global/introduction/hifi-direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200gae/
:stalks::stalks::stalks::stalks::stalks:
Haselsh1
05-01-2016, 19:33
Now I love the look of this and would seriously consider one if it were competitive with the likes of a Spacedeck on cost.
Exciting, maybe the cost will end up reasonable. It's cool to see all the plastic parts are now metal.
Be sure to click on all the little dots in the picture for construction details. This thing is built like a tank.
Spectral Morn
05-01-2016, 20:01
Seriously disappointed :( If that's what those interesting photos were pointing to. However I suspect that's just the first item. However if that's it :(
Seriously disappointed :( If that's what those interesting photos were pointing to. However I suspect that's just the first item. However if that's it :(
What were you expecting?
Spectral Morn
05-01-2016, 20:15
What were you expecting?
http://cdni.wired.co.uk/1920x1280/k_n/new_technics_turntable.jpg
Something based on this, like a modern SP10. These were the images being put about, and the design revealed at a Technics press event.
Paul's link looks nothing like this, so that might be the budget unit and this still the higher end unit. That's my hope.
The motor assembly on the new deck looks amazing, this is like a SP10 crammed into a SL-1200 form factor. It weighs 40 pounds.
sq225917
05-01-2016, 20:56
Wonder what price will be? £1500 -2000 I reckon. It looks like a sharper, more solid 1210. I imagine there's an SP model to follow.
This looks great to me, both design and spec wise. From the site:
Direct Drive Turntable System
Grand Class
SL-1200GAE
50th Anniversary Limited Edition
Available in Summer 2016
Specs:
Specification
All New Design for Redefining the Direct Drive Turntable
Twin-Rotor Surface-Facing Direct Drive Motor
Direct Drive Motor Controller
High Sensitive Tonearm
Brass-Top Turntable Platter
Insulator
Technics Definitive Design
Inherited SL-1200 Series
Heavy Aluminium Top Plate
Turntable Speeds
33 1/3 rpm, 45 rpm, 78 rpm
Variable Range Pitch
±8%, ±16%
Dimensions & Weight
W: 453 mm (17-27/32 inch) H: 170 mm (6-11/16 inch) D: 372 mm (14-21/32 inch)
Approx. 18 kg (39.7 lbs ) *Tentative *Height including dust cover
Terminal
Phono Output x 1 / SIGNAL GND x 1
It looks as though the SL-1200GAE will have a magnesium tonearm while the SL-1200G will have an aluminium one.
WOStantonCS100
05-01-2016, 22:36
Oh, yeah. This will be 1200 number 6, for me.
And I was just about to buy a Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU / RoadRunner Tachometer, a new plinth, a new belt and a new armboard for my Thorens TD 150 MKII. :scratch:
Those funds have just been reallocated.
walpurgis
05-01-2016, 22:37
It ain't gonna be cheap!
Fortunately, I won't be needing one. :)
walpurgis
05-01-2016, 22:46
I'm just wondering how much of the aftermarket upgrade goodie selection currently available for Techies will actually fit this, if in fact needed.
I'm just wondering how much of the aftermarket upgrade goodie selection currently available for Techies will actually fit this, if in fact needed.
Most likely nothing.
It has a completely new motor, the arm is different and the armboards likely won't fit it, the platter is no longer a piece of the motor, and even if the feet use the same thread size, this table is so much heavier that they wouldn't work right. Luckily, all these components have been upgraded over the original so upgrades maybe/probably won't be needed. I bet we eventually see armboards though.
Some more pictures at this site:
http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/5/10718234/technics-sl1200-sl1200g-sl1200gae-turntable-new-models-announced-release-date-ces-2016
walpurgis
05-01-2016, 23:18
Most likely nothing.
That was my thought.
Wakefield Turntables
06-01-2016, 11:38
It would be interesting to put this uo against one of the highly modded 1210's doing the round on this forum. :eyebrows:
I'd be interested in a new SP10 version.
Arkless Electronics
06-01-2016, 14:41
It's made the BBC news site! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35239586
where would you buy one from when they are out? in brighton there's only audio-t and richer sounds.
where would you buy one from when they are out? in brighton there's only audio-t and richer sounds.
http://www.technics.com/uk/where-to-buy/
I like the sentence in the blurb launch prologue from the Technics site.
"Direct-drive is generally considered to be for DJ use, and belt drive is for Hi-Fi use.":)
Marco?:lol:
straight from the horses mouth,you cant argue with that! :D
perhaps i'll stick with my fruit box rubber banded clunker then :)
allthingsanalogue
06-01-2016, 21:20
How did they remake the tooling so fast?
There was that petition on Facebook asking for them to be reintroduced and Technics said many times they would not bring them back and then suddenly they brought back them back in double quick time!
Although they look great!
Looks like it going to cost $4000 usd or about £3000 pounds.
http://www.whathifi.com/news/technics-sl-1200g-turntable-will-cost-4000
allthingsanalogue
06-01-2016, 23:54
Looks like it going to cost $4000 usd or about £3000 pounds.
http://www.whathifi.com/news/technics-sl-1200g-turntable-will-cost-4000
It doesn't make it clear if that is the GAE version or the G version, I would imagine it's the GAE version.
I like the sentence in the blurb launch prologue from the Technics site.
"Direct-drive is generally considered to be for DJ use, and belt drive is for Hi-Fi use.":)
Marco?:lol:
Lol - got a link to that quote? It is of course PISH! :D
Nothing like ridiculously uneducated generalising.... :doh:
Marco.
WOStantonCS100
07-01-2016, 03:17
How did they remake the tooling so fast?
Did they ever really definitively say they got rid of the tooling? I was under the impression that there were specific components/items they could no longer procure.
There was that petition on Facebook asking for them to be reintroduced and Technics said many times they would not bring them back and then suddenly they brought back them back in double quick time!
Although they look great!
I believe the online petition was actually on Change.org People say they won't do a lot of things... :D Looks like they went out of there way to address the usual nit picks lobbed at the old 1200s for so long; a very smart decision for Technics. No question. I'll be getting one.
Did they ever really definitively say they got rid of the tooling? I was under the impression that there were specific components/items they could no longer procure.
I don't think they ever said they had sold or scrapped it, just that it wasn't worth replacing it due to falling sales. That was 2010 so they were already a bit behind the times as TT sales had already turned the corner and were increasing again. I think it was more: 'We're not making them anymore so stop bugging us about it.'
I don't think their marketing people are any good. Their new amplifiers were badly judged in term of the market they were aiming at and the press releases for this new deck read like they were written by someone who has never owned a turntable.
badsoden
07-01-2016, 16:03
What Hifi reporting that they have been told that they will retail in the US for $4000 for the standard G version
http://www.whathifi.com/news/technics-sl-1200g-turntable-will-cost-4000
That'll be £4K here then. Silly money.
Bonkers... I'd have paid that (or up to £5k) for a properly 'revised SP10', but not an SL-1200, which has simply been tarted up a bit! :mental:
If you've got £4k to spend, and fancy a Technics T/T, then buy a nice minty second-hand MK2 or MK5G, and spend the rest on a quality tonearm and the popular mods (as detailed elsewhere in this section of the forum), and you'll end up with something far better, sonically.
:exactly:
Marco.
Techno Commander
07-01-2016, 16:55
The 4 grand is for the limited edition one, not the "standard" Grand Class one.
Rumours in pro circles think the Grand Class version will be "about a grand".
rubber duck
07-01-2016, 17:57
If you've got £4k to spend, and fancy a Technics T/T, then buy a nice minty second-hand MK2 or MK5G, and spend the rest on a quality tonearm and the popular mods (as detailed elsewhere in this section of the forum), and you'll end up with something far better, sonically.
That would surely be speculating given that none of us has heard the new Techie yet.
The 4 grand is for the limited edition one, not the "standard" Grand Class one.
Rumours in pro circles think the Grand Class version will be "about a grand".
This isn't what Technics is telling us. Both tables will cost the same, $4000.
Bonkers... I'd have paid that (or up to £5k) for a properly 'revised SP10', but not an SL-1200, which has simply been tarted up a bit! :mental:
If you've got £4k to spend, and fancy a Technics T/T, then buy a nice minty second-hand MK2 or MK5G, and spend the rest on a quality tonearm and the popular mods (as detailed elsewhere in this section of the forum), and you'll end up with something far better, sonically.
We do not now that. I think we basically got something a little beefier than an SP15 but not quite an SP10 in a SL-1200Mk2 styled chassis. $4000 USD is going to end up being a little cheaper than my mod path with the my M5G was and much, much cheaper than your winding path of mods. It would be really cool if you could just walk into an audio dealer and buy that kind of sound for $4k.
Spectral Morn
07-01-2016, 18:41
Bonkers... I'd have paid that (or up to £5k) for a properly 'revised SP10', but not an SL-1200, which has simply been tarted up a bit! :mental:
If you've got £4k to spend, and fancy a Technics T/T, then buy a nice minty second-hand MK2 or MK5G, and spend the rest on a quality tonearm and the popular mods (as detailed elsewhere in this section of the forum), and you'll end up with something far better, sonically.
:exactly:
Marco.
+ 1.
My disappointment grows increasingly :(
I guess it will depend on how good it sounds as to whether its a good price.
I think this will be rather good reading the first impressions in this article.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/technics-force-awakens-las-vegas#18pwO7DcCT7XsJVI.97
I think this will be rather good reading the first impressions in this article.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/technics-force-awakens-las-vegas#18pwO7DcCT7XsJVI.97
Quite enthusiastic this one, thanks for posting. Interesting quote:
The first 1200 "Limited Edition" examples of the new Technics SL1200GAE will be sold for $4000. The next 3 million will be "regular edition" 1200s and substitute an aluminum tonearm for the magnesium one. They will cost $4000 also.
Seems like they're aiming high with this turntable.
RobbieGong
07-01-2016, 21:13
Bonkers... I'd have paid that (or up to £5k) for a properly 'revised SP10', but not an SL-1200, which has simply been tarted up a bit! :mental:
If you've got £4k to spend, and fancy a Technics T/T, then buy a nice minty second-hand MK2 or MK5G, and spend the rest on a quality tonearm and the popular mods (as detailed elsewhere in this section of the forum), and you'll end up with something far better, sonically.
:exactly:
Marco.
+2
In action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0jDJdSBu_k
WOStantonCS100
08-01-2016, 06:26
I can think of several $4K and up currently manufactured turntables that don't hold speed as well and, arguably, don't sound any better than what Technics is about to drop on us. Are we really that upset about the price??? :scratch: Are we really going to bash this deck before we even have it "in hand" or gain first hand knowledge??? Here? of all places?? :confused:
I can think of several $4K and up currently manufactured turntables that don't hold speed as well and, arguably, don't sound any better than what Technics is about to drop on us. Are we really that upset about the price??? :scratch: Are we really going to bash this deck before we even have it "in hand" or gain first hand knowledge??? Here? of all places?? :confused:
Yes, but I don't see why we should just be slavish fanboys. The old SL1200 had the best speed stability in its class (and above). The USP of this new version, if we discount the aluminium fittings and the blue LEDs, would seem to be the new motor. And there was nothing wrong with the old motor, it is the only bit of the SL1200 that doesn't get pimped on the upgrade trail.
Some of the other mods that are considered to make a big improvement are not addressed - such as removing the power supply from the chassis.
I suspect the arm is not going to go down well with the audiophiles either. I'm sure it is fine but that is not how people are going to take it as it is 's' shaped which is considered old hat. I noticed the other day someone on another forum suggesting the stock arm on an SL1200 is not worthy of anything exceeding fifty quid cartridge-wise. Nonsense of course but this is how people think. If they'd specced a straight arm for the new one it would be taken more seriously immediately. The audio world does not really work on facts.
Not so bad if you are in the USA as it works out about £2500 which is not beer money but isn't desperately expensive for a quality record deck. But at £4000 in the UK is stretching it. The reason the old deck was so cheap was economy of scale. This should still apply if they are planning to make 3 million of them.
For me at £1500 or less I'd be interested - I could sell the 2 old models I've got to lessen the pain a bit. But £4K is out of the question.
The audio world does not really work on facts.
:lol: so true!!!
And there was nothing wrong with the old motor, it is the only bit of the SL1200 that doesn't get pimped on the upgrade trail.
I think the reason the old motor didn't get upgraded is more to do with the fact that it would be a major bit of engineering to create a replacement that worked with the existing control board. That doesn’t in any way suggest there were no possible improvements, just that it would take someone with the resources of Matsushita to do it. It was a shock the first time I tried a cleaning brush on a 12xx and the platter stopped. I was used to a sp10, the difference is not minor.
I think the reason the old motor didn't get upgraded is more to do with the fact that it would be a major bit of engineering to create a replacement that worked with the existing control board. That doesn’t in any way suggest there were no possible improvements, just that it would take someone with the resources of Matsushita to do it.
Absolutely, although as Martin says, I don't think there is much wrong with the old motor, which is testament to the fact that I've been able to put my modded SL-1210 up against many SP10s, and despite having an 'inferior motor', has competed with or outperformed them. However, it's of course true that virtually any piece of audio equipment can be improved with sufficient funds and know-how.
It was a shock the first time I tried a cleaning brush on a 12xx and the platter stopped. I was used to a sp10, the difference is not minor.
Yes, but as I'm sure you know, more torque isn't necessarily an indicator of superior sound quality, not that I'm saying you're implying that. I've heard a number of direct-drive T/Ts from other Japanese manufacturers, with much less torque than an SL-1210, sound better than it (in stock form), so as ever in this game, one must always look at the bigger picture :)
Marco.
Absolutely, although as Martin says, I don't think there much wrong with the old motor, which is testament to the fact that I've been able to put my modded SL-1210 up against many SP10s, and despite having an 'inferior motor', it's competed with or outperformed said SP10s. However, it's of course true that virtually any piece of audio equipment can be improved with sufficient funds and know-how.
Agreed, though my point is we just dont know yet, its possible they have produced a new motor that is better than a sp10 or anything else, maybe not, we cant tell. But what I was questioning was the logical inference behind:
And there was nothing wrong with the old motor, it is the only bit of the SL1200 that doesn't get pimped on the upgrade trail.
As if the second part in any way was proof of the first part.
Spectral Morn
08-01-2016, 11:59
I think for my part I was foolish, to have assumed a motor unit and plinth approach, with an after market (SME, Jelco etc) tonearm. It of course makes more sense for Technics to have come up with an all in one unit, but the images shown early on seemed to suggest the former not the latter.
Re costings I personally can't see the justification for the crazy high price for this turntable, Stereophile seem to be suggesting both will sell for big money, limited and normal production. Maybe its because it looks like a £500 Technics as was and not a more highend looking turntable, the sort that do sell for $4000.
Anyway time will tell, re what's what.
Techno Commander
08-01-2016, 17:18
I can understand the limited edition one going for 4K, but not the standard one. Especially is they want to shift 3 million of them.
Technics isn't trying to sell 3 million of these. It took them 40 years to sell 3 million SL-1200s (MK1-MK6).
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 17:39
Yes, but I don't see why we should just be slavish fanboys. The old SL1200 had the best speed stability in its class (and above). The USP of this new version, if we discount the aluminium fittings and the blue LEDs, would seem to be the new motor. And there was nothing wrong with the old motor, it is the only bit of the SL1200 that doesn't get pimped on the upgrade trail.
Some of the other mods that are considered to make a big improvement are not addressed - such as removing the power supply from the chassis.
I suspect the arm is not going to go down well with the audiophiles either. I'm sure it is fine but that is not how people are going to take it as it is 's' shaped which is considered old hat. I noticed the other day someone on another forum suggesting the stock arm on an SL1200 is not worthy of anything exceeding fifty quid cartridge-wise. Nonsense of course but this is how people think. If they'd specced a straight arm for the new one it would be taken more seriously immediately. The audio world does not really work on facts.
Not so bad if you are in the USA as it works out about £2500 which is not beer money but isn't desperately expensive for a quality record deck. But at £4000 in the UK is stretching it. The reason the old deck was so cheap was economy of scale. This should still apply if they are planning to make 3 million of them.
For me at £1500 or less I'd be interested - I could sell the 2 old models I've got to lessen the pain a bit. But £4K is out of the question.
Never has a truer few words been said than the underlined bit!!
The Man Who Saved the SL-1200 Turntable (Interview with Moni Daniel) | P303 Music Blog
http://pegasus303.com/interviews/the-man-who-saved-the-sl-1200-turntable-interview-with-moni-daniel/
Inside the new Technics SL 1200 GAE Turntable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-HK60Xpeho
allthingsanalogue
11-01-2016, 10:06
Unavailable
it's working now
Jonathan Carr From Lyra, bloody hell!
The Technics SL-1200 GAE turntable - CES 2016 - details
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeTaWm1WJeI
Return of the deck – how turntables are taking over
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/return-of-the-deck-how-turntables-are-taking-over/
Excellent article, Jostein, highlighting the indisputable (and very welcome) resurgence in the popularity of vinyl, which is only destined to grow and grow...
Then CES 2016 happened. That Panasonic and Sony put turntables front and centre at the world’s largest tech fair this week is significant, not least because it points to a deepening confidence that vinyl is going nowhere any time soon.
:yay: :hifive:
Marco.
pure sound
25-02-2016, 09:46
Looking forward to seeing & hopefully hearing one of the new Technics turntables at Bristol on Friday.
Spectral Morn
25-02-2016, 09:55
Looking forward to seeing & hopefully hearing one of the new Technics turntables at Bristol on Friday.
Look forward to reading your impressions Guy. I see a number of UK dealers advertising the turntable now, and at a price of £2700
pure sound
25-02-2016, 11:02
Look forward to reading your impressions Guy. I see a number of UK dealers advertising the turntable now, and at a price of £2700
I don't need another turntable but it'll be interesting to see whether the improvements they claim to have made to the smoothness of the drive are audible.
That's where the Motus I do sell scores heavily over the SP10 Mk2 which I still admire & use. It isn't all about high torque & rigid control.
I was fortunate enough to listen to one of the new Audio Technica DD turntables last weekend. I think Hanpin make it. That sounded smooth & engaging. I'm not sure I'd even choose a stock, unmodified 1210 over one of those.
It'll be interesting to hear when anyone gets the opportunity to compare a modified original 1200/1210 with this new design. I guess it's possible to throw more than £2700 at the older design but would it still be sensible to do that? It must be difficult to recoup that outlay should one ever decide to re-sell.
rubber duck
25-02-2016, 11:37
Unless there was a comparison with an original SL1200 at the show (unlikely) it will be difficult to work out the new SL1200's contribution. That said if the overall sound is good then that would be a start. Perhaps Marco or someone with a heavily-modded SL1200 can take their to a dealer to compare and report back.
Looking forward to seeing & hopefully hearing one of the new Technics turntables at Bristol on Friday.
Yes, as Neil says, it'll be interesting finding out what you think. I'd take a couple of LPs with you, stuff you know intimately well, and ask the exhibitor to play it for you. That way you'll be able to judge things with some degree of objectivity :)
At £2700, it *should* be superb, but I have my doubts, for mainly two key reasons, and factors which I know from experience, massively influence the performance of the Technics:
1) The tonearm is still nothing special, and I suspect would be outperformed fairly easily by something such as a Jelco SA-750, Hadcock GH242, SME M2-9R, or even a Wand. IMO, if this T/T had genuinely been aimed at audiophiles (and let's face it, who else would shell out that sort of cash, certainly not DJs!) they should've sold it as a motor unit only, a la SP10, but in a plinth, thus leaving the buyer to fit his or her own tonearm.
2) They've failed to address one of the most fundamental and important factors of all, in terms of transforming the performance of the Technics - and that's powering it with a top-notch, external, fully regulated PSU. Having that big lump of iron underneath the platter, quite simply, is a sonic no-no.
Due to those two factors, and despite what looks to be like an excellent new motor/bearing aside, which I'm sure *will* improve matters, overall I can't see it sounding all that special, because I know how much the standard arm and stock PSU limit the T/Ts potential.
Therefore, if I were in the market now for such a turntable, given that I know how important it is to address those two aspects of its design, I'd still need to factor in the cost of a genuinely top-notch arm and and off-board PSU, of the quality of the Paul Hynes unit that I use with my own Techy, before I'd consider buying one - and so on top of the £2700 asking price, I'd need to spend around another £2k, minimum, on both of the latter items, before it would provide any hope of outperforming what I currently have.
Therefore, that would be around £5k I'd need to spend, in order to bring it up to the required standard.
Given that's how much I've spent on my own T/T, to date, which includes a £2300 Ortofon tonearm and a Mike New ETP platter (whatever that costs these days, and which I suspect is superior to what's fitted to this new T/T), you can see that, for me, this new model isn't really an enticing prospect. Particularly when you take into consideration that, Ortofon tonearm aside, it's cost me £2700 (exactly the same price as this new T/T), to fully modify mine, *including* the ETP platter and tonearm above! ;)
Perhaps what I should do, in the interests of AoS and all Technics T/T enthusiasts, is take my own T/T along to one of the dealers, stocking the new model, and audition it against mine, then report the results here. A member of AoS, from the local area, who's not a 'Techy fanboy', could also accompany me and offer his completely unbiased account of the outcome.
*Then* we would get a true handle on the performance capabilities of this new Technics T/T, and its 'SPPV value' and status as a genuine high-end contender, could thus be properly assessed :exactly:
Marco.
Well, we dont know either way what the power supply is like. Its almost certainly a switch mode one, so there won’t be a big lump of iron and hopefully the HF noise from the supply will (unlike 50Hz fields) be stopped by the metalwork. Also, its an entirely new control system as far as we can tell from the press releases, so there may be regulators all over the place.
Ah, I hadn't considered SMPS, with regard to the 'lump of iron' factor, but given what we know about those, in terms of (in general) their inferiority in comparison with the best of the linear varieties, is it liable to result in superior, or even similar performance, compared with something either you (or Paul Hynes) have designed?
That aside however, one of the most important constituent parts of the T/T (the tonearm) is still nothing special, and looks to have changed little compared with what was fitted to the old Techy - and that is bound to impact significantly on performance, unless one considers the influence of tonearms as being less than that.
As ever though, I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the listening...
Marco.
rubber duck
25-02-2016, 12:59
I agree. I feel there has been much (unwarranted?) skepticism and speculation given that no one has heard this yet. I for one am happy to keep an open mind. Who knows, perhaps the new motor will make everything else less important in the hierarchy of upgrades.
Unless there was a comparison with an original SL1200 at the show (unlikely) it will be difficult to work out the new SL1200's contribution. That said if the overall sound is good then that would be a start. Perhaps Marco or someone with a heavily-modded SL1200 can take their to a dealer to compare and report back.
Indeed, and that's precisely what I may do! :)
Marco.
I agree. I feel there has been much (unwarranted?) skepticism and speculation given that no one has heard this yet. I for one am happy to keep an open mind. Who knows, perhaps the new motor will make everything else less important in the hierarchy of upgrades.
Perhaps indeed, and that would be interesting. I remain rather sceptical though, for reasons outlined. Thing is, whichever scenario prevails, I can't lose.
If after auditioning it, the new model is markedly better than my own T/T, then I simply sell mine (which I suspect I'd have no shortage of buyers for), minus the tonearm and armboard, buy the new one from the proceeds, and fit my tonearm to it - simples! :cool:
However, I would only ever do that if the new model *significantly* outperformed my own T/T. Subtle differences, here or there, wouldn't qualify as sufficient reason for making a change. It would also be rather interesting if the opposite thing happened, and my Techy trounced the new one.... ;)
Like I said though, either way for me, it's a win-win!
Marco.
If after auditioning it, the new model is markedly better than my own T/T, then I simply sell mine (which I suspect I'd have no shortage of buyers for), minus the tonearm and armboard, buy the new one from the proceeds, and fit my tonearm to it - simples! :cool:
At this time, you would have plenty of buyers, however in the hypothetical event the new one was better (which would be signalled by you selling your table, even if you kept your opinion to your self), the market would dry up quickly.
I know where you're coming from Nick, but I've already had folk asking me to give them first refusal, should I ever decide to sell my T/T, so I don't think I'd have much to worry about in that respect! ;)
Marco.
The arm looks very similar to yours Marco, so personally I am reserving judgement until I hear one. I am in Bristol this weekend, but I don't think I will have time to wander round a HiFi show.
However, the fact remains that if I had £2700 to drop on a deck that needs modifying to sound good, I would be looking elsewhere. My SL1200 has not cost me anywhere near that. It may not be the best but I am happy with it.
pure sound
25-02-2016, 16:06
I might be mistaken but I thought I'd read that they'd upgraded the arm design quite a bit.
I believe that is the case from what I have read.
The arm looks very similar to yours Marco, so personally I am reserving judgement until I hear one.
Quite right too, as will I. If I didn't have other things planned for this weekend, and the Bristol show hotel wasn't such a ball-ache to park in or near, I might've gone and checked out the T/T.
The Technics arm is rather different from mine, Kevin. They 'look similar', in so far only as they are both Jap types with detachable headshells... ;)
An Ortofon RS-212D costs nearly as much as the whole new Technics turntable!
Marco.
I might be mistaken but I thought I'd read that they'd upgraded the arm design quite a bit.
In what way, Guy. Do you have any details? :)
To me, it looks 'tarted up', at best, rather than any new or radical redesign.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
25-02-2016, 18:00
Yes, as Neil says, it'll be interesting finding out what you think. I'd take a couple of LPs with you, stuff you know intimately well, and ask the exhibitor to play it for you. That way you'll be able to judge things with some degree of objectivity :)
At £2700, it *should* be superb, but I have my doubts, for mainly two key reasons, and factors which I know from experience, massively influence the performance of the Technics:
1) The tonearm is still nothing special, and I suspect would be outperformed fairly easily by something such as a Jelco SA-750, Hadcock GH242, SME M2-9R, or even a Wand. IMO, if this T/T had genuinely been aimed at audiophiles (and let's face it, who else would shell out that sort of cash, certainly not DJs!) they should've sold it as a motor unit only, a la SP10, but in a plinth, thus leaving the buyer to fit his or her own tonearm.
2) They've failed to address one of the most fundamental and important factors of all, in terms of transforming the performance of the Technics - and that's powering it with a top-notch, external, fully regulated PSU. Having that big lump of iron, underneath the platter, quite simply, is a sonic no-no.
Due to those two factors, and despite what looks to be like an excellent new motor/bearing aside, which I'm sure *will* improve matters, overall I can't see it sounding all that special, because I know how much the standard arm and stock PSU limit the T/Ts potential.
Therefore, if I were in the market now for such a turntable, given that I know how important it is to address those two aspects of its design, I'd still need to factor in the cost of a genuinely top-notch arm and and off-board PSU, of the quality of the Paul Hynes unit that I use with my own Techy, before I'd consider buying one - and so on top of the £2700 asking price, I'd need to spend around another £2k, minimum, on both of the latter items, before it would provide any hope of outperforming what I currently have.
Therefore, that would be around £5k I'd need to spend, in order to bring it up to the required standard.
Given that's how much I've spent on my own T/T, to date, which includes a £2300 Ortofon tonearm and a Mike New ETP platter (whatever that costs these days, and which I suspect is superior to what's fitted to this new T/T), you can see that, for me, this new model isn't really an enticing prospect. Particularly when you take into consideration that, Ortofon tonearm aside, it's cost me £2700 (exactly the same price as this new T/T), to fully modify mine, *including* the ETP platter and tonearm above! ;)
Perhaps what I should do, in the interests of AoS and all Technics T/T enthusiasts, is take my own T/T along to one of the dealers, stocking the new model, and audition it against mine, then report the results here. A member of AoS, from the local area, who's not a 'Techy fanboy', could also accompany me and offer his completely unbiased account of the outcome.
*Then* we would get a true handle on the performance capabilities of this new Technics T/T, and its 'SPPV value' and status as a genuine high-end contender, could thus be properly assessed :exactly:
Marco.
Peter Tyson is your closest I think, but I suspect there will be no demo stock, as all will be pre-sold.
Quite right too, as will I. If I didn't have other things planned for this weekend, and the Bristol show hotel wasn't such a ball-ache to park in or near, I might've gone and checked out the T/T.
The Technics arm is rather different from mine, Kevin. They 'look similar', in so far only as they are both Jap types with detachable headshells... ;)
An Ortofon RS-212D costs nearly as much as the whole new Technics turntable!
Marco.
It's an easy hotel to park near, with Cabot Circus, Bond Street and the Galleries.
Using this link http://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/bristol_royal_infirmary_hospital_blue_badge/ and pre-booking you can park for 12 hours for £8.
Cheers, Kevin. Noted, should I ever go to Bristol again :)
Marco.
Peter Tyson is your closest I think, but I suspect there will be no demo stock, as all will be pre-sold.
Yup, you're probably right - and sadly, most likely to idiots who're more into its 'collectibility' aspect, than how it sounds :doh:
Marco.
Mike_New
25-02-2016, 21:55
Who ever gets to take a good look at the new "machine" check out the platter.
because all the images I have been able to see indicate that it is almost identical to the old one, in fact it appears to be from the same Die design
except for the centre boss which now no longer has to accommodate the pulse generator.
Unless this was only being fitted until the new design became available from production.
Mike, from the pictures I've seen, they've also bonded a brass plate onto the top, to add mass, and applied more damping underneath, so I guess from that point of view it's 'different' from the original platter, but not sufficiently different, IMO (compared with, for example, your ETP), to make a genuinely significant sonic improvement.
That, and the questionable quality of the tonearm and PSU make me rather sceptical about just how good the new SL-1200G actually is. For me, the *real* improvements over the original are the new bearing and motor, but of course the former may not be any better than yours!
Anyway, I'm afraid it's all guesswork, as to just how good this new model is, until someone with a judiciously modified original SL-1200/1210 carries out some relevant comparisons :)
Marco.
Mike_New
25-02-2016, 23:07
Actually the brass plate that I saw appeared to be attached by four screws to the base platter, but maybe it
was also bonded. It surely would have to be as brass rings like a bell!!!
I think if we are serious about a controlled comparison then the new TT must be purchased and compared against say three or four upgraded SL1200s. Martin would be good choice among others. You could always sell it later or keep it.
I do not think that any retailer in his right mind is going to co-operate in any comparison activities.
In my opinion the only major change is the Motor which is now of a pancake design and no doubt controlled by the latest micro processor. technology. Sadly the bearing does not seem to be of a substantial design in regard to it's size and diameter.
I've read a comment that the new motor is a cheaper and simpler design than the old one and not likely to be as good.
Obviously this is only speculation at this stage, but still, I think a lot of people will hold out for the new SP10, if that ever happens.
Actually the brass plate that I saw appeared to be attached by four screws to the base platter, but maybe it
was also bonded. It surely would have to be as brass rings like a bell!!!
Yes, copper would've been a far better material to use, and surely not out of place/unaffordable on a limited edition turntable, costing nearly £3k?
I think if we are serious about a controlled comparison then the new TT must be purchased and compared against say three or four upgraded SL1200s. Martin would be good choice among others. You could always sell it later or keep it.
Yes, that would be ideal. However, right now I've got more important things to spend £2.7k on than a spare direct-drive turntable. However, if someone is willing to buy one to facilitate such an experiment, then I'm more than willing to use it to conduct a comparison against my own T/T.
I do not think that any retailer in his right mind is going to co-operate in any comparison activities.
You're probably right, as they'd have little to gain, and besides, as Neil says, I doubt they'd have any demo stock anyway. Perhaps I should take my own T/T along to the Bristol hi-fi show this weekend and demonstrate it next to the new model? :eyebrows:
Honestly, if I were allowed to do that, I'd be there like a shot!
In my opinion the only major change is the Motor which is now of a pancake design and no doubt controlled by the latest micro processor. technology.
Yes, that's arguably the only *major*, and potentially worthwhile improvement, over what those of us with judiciously modified Techies have now.
The key, as to whether or not this new model is better than what I, or the likes of Martin has, will be down to whether the sonic effect of the new motor and control circuitry outweighs the effect of our respective T/Ts having (arguably) better PSUs, bearings and platters, and (beyond argument) better tonearms - and also, as an overall 'turntable solution', whether the new model offers superior synergy (i.e. all of its constituent parts working more symbiotically together) than that of those on any of our T/Ts.
Sadly the bearing does not seem to be of a substantial design in regard to it's size and diameter.
Possibly, but for me it does look to be pretty decent, and a significant upgrade on the original. It also looks to be bonded far more securely to where it needs to be, than the original, thus negating the need for fitting a base plate.
Marco.
I've read a comment that the new motor is a cheaper and simpler design than the old one and not likely to be as good.
Obviously this is only speculation at this stage, but still, I think a lot of people will hold out for the new SP10, if that ever happens.
Interesting, and if that is the case, you can say 'ta-ta bella' to the new model being any better than some of the judiciously modified versions, owned by folks here and elsewhere.
In terms of the bit in bold, indeed! That's a far more interesting one, and liable to raise the bar quite considerably.
It's what I'm certainly waiting for, although by then I'll probably have 'done the direct-drive thing' and moved onto my idler project (a BBC hammerite grey Garrard 301), from either Loricaraft or Audio Grail, and the Techy will be retained as my second turntable - not that I'm saying it'll play second fiddle to the 301, but simply that it'll no longer by my only fuzzy-spinner :)
Marco.
Sorry for the lack of quotes, feeling leazy... regards the tonearm, sure, it looks a lot like the original, but that doesn't tell anything at all about the performance or sound, there's so much more going in any tonearm than superficial looks, like I'm sure everyone knows. Despite what I just said, I have to say I share the scepticism :D I suppose either they are confident it's a very good arm, or are just lazy/catering for the different people/what ever... I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, but overall from what I've seen, I'm not all that impressed - I just have this gut feeling like the company isn't all that clear what it is they want to accomplish - like do this and that to make it have more appeal for 'audiophiles' but keep it very close to the original SL-1200 to cater to the DJ-market, it just seems a bit too much like they're trying to half-please everyone with a "designed by committee" effort.
But still, eager to hear some actual listening impressions and how it performs in the real world.
RobbieGong
26-02-2016, 17:56
Sorry for the lack of quotes, feeling leazy... regards the tonearm, sure, it looks a lot like the original, but that doesn't tell anything at all about the performance or sound, there's so much more going in any tonearm than superficial looks, like I'm sure everyone knows. Despite what I just said, I have to say I share the scepticism :D I suppose either they are confident it's a very good arm, or are just lazy/catering for the different people/what ever... I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, but overall from what I've seen, I'm not all that impressed - I just have this gut feeling like the company isn't all that clear what it is they want to accomplish - like do this and that to make it have more appeal for 'audiophiles' but keep it very close to the original SL-1200 to cater to the DJ-market, it just seems a bit too much like they're trying to half-please everyone with a "designed by committee" effort.
But still, eager to hear some actual listening impressions and how it performs in the real world.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying Kai, it does look that way. £2.7K is an awful lot of money for a turntable that is not a genuine audiophile piece. They should have kept the SL12XX more or less as is, maybe a few slight tweaks for maybe a shade under £1K and then produced something with a 'proper' arm, better bearing, offboard psu and a non strobe dot, non resonant platter for the home focused 'audiophiles' amongst us - would have loved to have seen / heard something like that. An SP10 type of effort could then have been the third tire - top level up.
pure sound
26-02-2016, 18:32
I agree with a lot of what you're saying Kai, it does look that way. £2.7K is an awful lot of money for a turntable that is not a genuine audiophile piece. They should have kept the SL12XX more or less as is, maybe a few slight tweaks for maybe a shade under £1K and then produced something with a 'proper' arm, better bearing, offboard psu and a non strobe dot, non resonant platter for the home focused 'audiophiles' amongst us - would have loved to have seen / heard something like that. An SP10 type of effort could then have been the third tire - top level up.
I had a look today. It appears to be very nicely made, particularly the solid cnc machined top. I gather the platter now weighs in at 3.5 Kg and as stated above the motor control is implemented quite differently. I gather there's a torque adjustment facility under the platter as well as a braking adjustment
The arm generally appears to be more substantial & better made than the original. Whether it's in the same league as other arms costing £1K or thereabouts, I don't know. It might be a moot point anyway because I don't think it's intended that it can be removed.
I was asking myself who this turntable is aimed at. Audiophiles, rightly or wrongly, would probably look elsewhere if spending £3K on a deck & arm.
Wannabe DJ's or young kids would likely buy an old used 1200/1210 for £300 or so. My best guess is that they are aiming it at people who might have been into mixing & playing records 20-25 years ago, people who are now perhaps in their 40's & who have a bit more cash, have noticed the vinyl revival & who want a nostalgic return to the familiar deck of their youth but a new one. It still retains all the DJing features.
As to how it sounds. Difficult to tell, they were using their own electronics and some ATC standmounts.
The one on display was the GAE (?) version. I think those are a limited edition and that there'll be a lower cost one for the masses fairly soon although who knows what price that'll be. £1500 perhaps?
Although we may baulk at the prices it still wouldn't surprise me if they were the best selling decks at their respective price points simply because it's such an iconic piece. They will sell. Thinking about it with a commercial hat on, they'd have been mad to deviate too far from how the original looked.
The one on display was the GAE (?) version. I think those are a limited edition and that there'll be a lower cost one for the masses fairly soon although who knows what price that'll be. £1500 perhaps?
Although we may baulk at the prices it still wouldn't surprise me if they were the best selling decks at their respective price points simply because it's such an iconic piece. Thinking about it with a commercial hat on, they'd have been mad to deviate too far from how the original looked.
At least the initial word was the special limited edition and later standard version would retail for exactly the same price... in practice I'd be surprised if the 'street price' for the latter wasn't lower though.
I get your point about not deviating too far from the original look, but on the other had they already deviated an awful lot from the original price, which I'd think changes the demographic of the potential buyers, and most people looking to spend £3k+ on a turntable probably aren't too much into the look of the original... but you'd think Technics have done their homework and have better data on this than my gut feelings :)
rubber duck
26-02-2016, 22:43
I had a look today. It appears to be very nicely made, particularly the solid cnc machined top. I gather the platter now weighs in at 3.5 Kg and as stated above the motor control is implemented quite differently. I gather there's a torque adjustment facility under the platter as well as a braking adjustment
The arm generally appears to be more substantial & better made than the original. Whether it's in the same league as other arms costing £1K or thereabouts, I don't know. It might be a moot point anyway because I don't think it's intended that it can be removed.
Thanks for the post Guy.
fletchdirect
01-03-2016, 21:13
If I take a step back and knowing about the modification paths etc etc - the new 1200G is probably one of the worst poorly thought out product launches I have seen.
* They seem to be wanting to fix the wrong issues - apart from the internal tweaks, for me a lot seems to be yesterday's lunch reheated. How good is that arm really?
* Pricing strategy is idiotic beyond belief - the normal and limited editions will both be the same price, approx. £2700. This is too expensive for DJs and not the right brand to justify nearly £3k to audiophiles when there is so much choice at this price level. I don't think there is a really big market for DJ turntables at this level, as most DJing now is done via Serrato and with Pioneer CDJs. The vinyl route would be via second hand Technics from ebay. If the new 1200G is positioned on audio quality alone - pitch adj, 78 speed, strobe markings, pop up light etc are pretty much useless features. It is trying to be all things to all rich people, and will end up being nothing to nobody if they are not careful. SP10mk4 would be £8k??
* If they took any notice of the modification industry then they would do an armless version with a variety of armboards, and a DC input socket with external power supply (a la Cyrus PSXR) to have the option of using an external power supply for better audio quality. Even better an armboard with height adjustment like their current arm design.
I had a good discussion with the guys at the Technics room at the Bristol hifi show. Their demo was as bland as it comes with poorly matched ATC speakers that gave the 2M Black a very subdued presentation. You could argue that the new 1200 launch was the star of that show - they did very little to showcase it that way when they could.
They were frankly very embarrassed at the price point and had no clue about the way in which consumers are modifying the old 1200 for better sonics. Apparently they had been hearing all day that an armless version would be a good idea - not sure how much influence Panasonic UK has on this. I told them to hook up with Dave Cawley from Timestep over dinner that night.......he was demoing a Timestep 1210 with SME V and AT33 in the lobby.
I will only be buying one if there are SIGNIFICANT discounts.......
They seem to be wanting to fix the wrong issues - apart from the internal tweaks, for me a lot seems to be yesterday's lunch reheated. How good is that arm really?
Excellent post, Julian. I completely concur! However, it's sad (and somewhat indicative) of a) how much the staff/demonstrators at these shows don't know about the products they're selling (or the market that they're aimed at), and even worse, b) appear to have little knowledge of how to get the most out of them... :doh:
I mean, who's idea was it to put that system together, which clearly didn't work? Did they gather round the pub one afternoon and say: 'Yeah, we'll just fire a pair of ATCs on the end and hope for the best', or if not, just how much thought went into it??
If the new Technics is genuinely any good, then the guys in that room missed an excellent opportunity to demonstrate that and show potential buyers what an SL-1200 can do, but then maybe that wasn't the point, and as the T/T will likely simply be snapped up by collectors, for whom ultimate sound quality isn't a primary concern, it didn't really matter what it sounded like at the show :rolleyes:
Let's hope that Technics make a rather better job of things when/if they release the SP10 MK5!
Marco.
fletchdirect
03-03-2016, 22:06
Wise words Marco. It kind of makes my blood boil a bit. I would assume that the people from Panasonic UK were probably the guys who have worked in Bluray and the AV department - I mean Panasonic UK have not had the need to hire Audio Professionals for a while now since the Technics brand took a knap. There was even a guy there from Technics Japan who was an R&D guy, but not the designer of the 1200G. He had no idea at all about the modification market. I had to draw him a sketch of what an SME armboard looks like, and how he should look at an armless version. Technics had 2 rooms, one had a lifestyle system in it. The other the 1200G set up. I would bet that nobody had checked the alignment of that 2M Black PNP which was connected straight up to the armtube. I went on Day 1 and apparently they changed the system on Day 2 to the higher spec integrated amp in their range and changed the speakers to the new Technics co-axial models. Even worse, I expect to hear the best sound whether I go on Day 1 or Day 2. They should have pulled out all of the stops for this show. Monkeys. Dave Cawley's set up sounded good though albeit through Denon Headphones.
Over on another forum there has been quite a lot of critique of the show blaming poor room acoustics and iffy set up - I just blame a lack of passion.
Anyway, looking forward to those discounts at Superfi etc etc.
PS - even more laughable was the guy from Sony demonstrating his £450 turntable with built in dac thing, saying that at this price point the audio quality of it could not be beaten.....I just left and went to Greggs for a sausage roll.
fletchdirect
03-03-2016, 22:17
some info from what caravan....
http://www.whathifi.com/news/technics-explains-sl-1200g-price-and-hints-cheaper-turntable
seems to me that its been designed by R&D with no input from any quality marketing personnel in isolation of whats going on in the modification industry. Never know, that arm may be epa100 standard.....emphasis on "may"
Mike_New
03-03-2016, 22:17
Well Julian that dispenses with the 1200G!!! now back to the real SL1200 and the upgrades that make it great.
fletchdirect
03-03-2016, 22:54
Well Julian that dispenses with the 1200G!!! now back to the real SL1200 and the upgrades that make it great.
my sentiments exactly, the 1200G strategy and launch is typically big corporation blind to reality
Mike_New
03-03-2016, 23:28
The single point we all must consider is that Technics/Panasonic are not making a TT for those of the cognoscenti who are members here and else ware and who comprise of probably 0.01% of total potential users of TTs. That would surely be a way to becoming broke very quickly.
Rather they are producing what they consider to be a quality TT for Fred Blogs and co who are not aware of the finer points and most certainly do not care!!!
When any company places a retail product into an exhibition, it is for the benefit of those distributors and re-sellers who will be selling it on the High Street.
Sure there will be many Audiophiles who visit these expos, but just do the numbers on the percentages of total visitors versus the buying population.
Technics have IMO quickly bolted together a product from the tooling and componenents of the earlier and very successful SL1200 and including a less expensive to manufacture direct drive motor assembly. In order to address what they consider to be a valid activity to capture some of the market share in a newly awakened record industry.
They are a large group and I am sure they have done the numbers correctly.
fletchdirect
03-03-2016, 23:42
The single point we all must consider is that Technics/Panasonic are not making a TT for those of the cognoscenti who are members here and else ware and who comprise of probably 0.01% of total potential users of TTs. That would surely be a way to becoming broke very quickly.
Rather they are producing what they consider to be a quality TT for Fred Blogs and co who are not aware of the finer points and most certainly do not care!!!
When any company places a retail product into an exhibition, it is for the benefit of those distributors and re-sellers who will be selling it on the High Street.
Sure there will be many Audiophiles who visit these expos, but just do the numbers on the percentages of total visitors versus the buying population.
Technics have IMO quickly bolted together a product from the tooling and componenents of the earlier and very successful SL1200 and including a less expensive to manufacture direct drive motor assembly. In order to address what they consider to be a valid activity to capture some of the market share in a newly awakened record industry.
They are a large group and I am sure they have done the numbers correctly.
I am really not so sure - I don't know many Fred Blogs willing to shell out £3000 or 4000 USD on a new turntable. People like this will surely be informed enough about sonics and what 4000 dollars can buy. Rich non audiophiles are buying into streaming and wireless speakers or B&O, surely? I mean, lets face it the reason we are having this debate is that Technics really do not know who this product is targeted towards, and I am really not sure either.
It's targeted at the high end Japanese and Asian audio markets and they could not care less if it sells in Europe and North America.
Those $20k SB-R1 speakers that all the audio press seems to shrug at are actually selling fairly well in Japan.
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