View Full Version : SUT conundrum: which transformers to choose?
Guys,
I'm considering having a play with a low-cost/DIY-type SUT, to match with a Denon DL-103 - essentially one that offers high SPPV. I'm looking at two options: one which features Lundahl LL9226 transformers, the kind used in the popular K&K audio kits, and the other looks like this, fitted with vintage Beyer Dynamic ones:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/908/wyJWjB.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8wyJWjBj)
Which would you choose, and why? Perhaps you have experience of one or the other, or both? All opinions welcome :cool:
Marco.
It would be good to get some views on this, folks - specifically anyone who's heard Lundahl LL9226 traffos, used in an SUT. How good are they exactly? :)
Marco.
PaulStewart
31-12-2015, 00:40
I'm using the Lundahls on one system, I really like them and they match the 103 well. I've used the Bayers mic trannys too, I think the Lundahls are better with the 103, but I would look for a Denon SUT.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. It's just a little experiment I'm trying out. Actually, since carrying out some research, I've discovered this rather interesting device from Germany, namely a DATAkustik SK-1 Prepre, see here:
http://www.springair.de/en/detail/index/sArticle/75934
Would you agree that it seems to be a head amp, and not an SUT, as it appears to plug into the mains? :)
In any case, it gets some good reviews, especially with a 103, and is suitably off-the-wall to pique my interest! Have a read at this on Vinyl Engine (scroll down and you'll see the SK-1 mentioned): http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24761
Marco.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. It's just a little experiment I'm trying out. Actually, since carrying out some research, I've discovered this rather interesting device from Germany, namely a DATAkustik SK-1 Prepre, see here:
http://www.springair.de/en/detail/index/sArticle/75934
Would you agree that it seems to be a head amp, and not an SUT, as it appears to plug into the mains? :)
In any case, it gets some good reviews, especially with a 103, and is suitably off-the-wall to pique my interest! Have a read at this on Vinyl Engine (scroll down and you'll see the SK-1 mentioned): http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24761
Marco.
http://www.springair.de/de/plattenspieler-x/uebertrager-und-prepres/71852/datakustik-sk-1-prepre (correct link)
Anything with a power cord is going to be a head amp.
I agree, Dave, which is what makes it very interesting, as there are precious few good MC head amps around... Intriguing, isn't it?
Tried that link you gave, btw, but it doesn't work for me, as all I get is blank page, with a message saying: "This webpage has a redirect loop" :scratch:
Marco.
That's odd because it works for me, your links take me to a pair of speakers.
Yup that one takes me to a head amp too.
That's odd because it works for me, your links take me to a pair of speakers.
Nope, not here. It takes me to the head amp... Anyway, not to worry, you can see the product I'm referring to. It's a rather intriguing one :)
Marco.
The vinyl engine posts suggested that the guy thought that the Denon SUT sound better with the 103 in one of his later posts?
PaulStewart
31-12-2015, 10:35
Yes this is a head amp Marco, it says pre-pre amp on it. I like head amps..... Sometimes I have a Grant Amplifier one which is valve and is sublime for things like Ortofons and some of the older Jap MCs, is not as good to my ears as a PROPERLY matched SUT on my Koetsu, which is my favourite. I tend to think that of the DL-103 as well.
Yup, but you kind of need to read between the lines with these things, and try and decipher what is really meant.
Based on extensive experience of SUTs and active head amps, I think a lot of where he's coming from is based on the marked difference in presentation there always is between such devices in general, rather than the inherent sonic signature of the head amp in question, and/or its 'inferiority', compared with the Denon SUT.
It's one to ponder, and I'm still in the process of mulling things over and continuing my research into not only the DATAkustik SK-1 Prepre, but also the SUTs I've highlighted :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
31-12-2015, 11:05
It seems to be a common theme that head amps have a more up front presentation than a SUT. Both can be equally as good IMHO, just the head amp puts you a few rows nearer the performance.
montesquieu
31-12-2015, 11:19
Have had a few head amps including a rather nice Denon one ha500 I think it was. For cheap money though I'd be tempted by Japanese vintage sut's like the fidelity research fr3, £200 landed with two ratios one suitable for SPU the other for Denon 103 could be made for you Marco!
Ali Tait
31-12-2015, 11:35
Tom, if you thought the 500 was good, you should try the 1000, especially after a recap.
For cheap money though I'd be tempted by Japanese vintage sut's like the fidelity research fr3, £200 landed with two ratios one suitable for SPU the other for Denon 103 could be made for you Marco!
Cheers, Tom. Got a link to the item concerned for £200? I'm looking for something that's available to buy right now :)
Marco.
Marco,
You might have forgotten this helpful string in ref to this and your other posting:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?2907-Step-Up-to-the-Plate-Bent-Audio-Mu
I have a fairly primitive lash up I bought at a jumble which has those Lundahl trafos somewhere, and they do a perfectly good job with all but the lowest voltage LOMCs. A bit susceptible to picking up hum from anything nearby, but it is easily moved and could be due to the rather agricultural layout and execution.
A word of caution though - you can get perfectly good results by experimentation. I also have an Ortofon MCA-10 battery operated thingy from the '70s which on paper should not pair well with my Zu Audio 103 but does a perfectly respectable job if not the last word in high fidleity. I don't know what is inside but as you can pick one up for around 50 sovs, it might be worth a try. From what I recall, the sound is not far removed from Denon and FR units of the same vintage.
I have used my Whest on MM settings with several SUTs and I'd echo the feelings re the trade off between feeling you are in the front seats and a sense of better dynamics.
YMMV, but I'm an inveterate fiddler who has been accused of listening the hifi more than the music:), so am quite interested in having either feature available.
Peter
montesquieu
31-12-2015, 11:55
Cheers, Tom. Got a link to the item concerned for £200? I'm looking for something that's available to buy right now :)
Marco.
This ones sadly now sold
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?38747-For-Sale-Fidelity-Research-FRT-3-SUT&highlight=Fidelity+research
This one a tad more expensive but also gone they do come up though
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Fidelity-Research-FRT-3G-Step-up-transformer-/201374426296
Thanks for that, Tom. I'll keep a lookout :thumbsup:
Peter, yup, I remember that thread, and yes there's lots of useful info in there :)
Marco.
Marco,
if you have a mate in the US, maybe avoid the duty...?
I had one of these back in the day. Lovely
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vintage-silver-LUXMAN-CX-1-MOVING-COIL-Cartridge-MC-PHONO-HEAD-PREAMPLIFIER-/351605829764?hash=item51dd573084:g:u1IAAOSwnipWZjp w
P
Very nice, Peter. Problem is its 120V, and not designed for use on UK mains :)
Marco.
Marco,
Actually better in my experience as you get less mains noise using a step down to 110v!
P
I'm more worried about our 240V (+ sometimes) blowing it up! ;)
As the unit is only rated for 120V, it would need to be used here in conjunction with a step-down mains transformer, which in a way would be rather amusing (a step-up with a step-down - sounds like a dance, lol), and I'm not going to that type of hassle with this particular project.
Marco.
Ive got a few pairs of BD that I tried in the early days - one set was good with my Asaka, although a little susceptible to hum (I had them lashed up at time, not in a shielded box) - but in the end a McKinnie RO III head amp was much better (based on an original John Curl design) - so much so I have 3 of them now...just in case :)
Arkless Electronics
31-12-2015, 13:57
That head amp of mine which you tried Marco has had some further mods to it and is much better still.... Too expensive for your second system I guess but there may be others out there wanting a top quality head amp ;)
Indeed. See here, and how I was recommending your services [read from post #16 onwards]: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?42267-A-wee-Christmas-present-to-myself/page2
;)
You should have a chat with Kevin. I'm pretty sure that yours will piss all over the Slee!
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
31-12-2015, 14:18
Indeed. See here, and how I was recommending your services [read from post #16 onwards]: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?42267-A-wee-Christmas-present-to-myself/page2
;)
You should have a chat with Kevin. I'm pretty sure that yours will piss all over the Slee!
Marco.
Ah yes... cheers! Hadn't seen that thread.
A mod I came up with whilst designing the hybrid phono stage has been applied to it's regulator now and has made a substantial improvement...
IME beating the slee phono stuff is not exactly a challenge....
Nice one - that sounds cool. I didn't think GS stuff would represent too much of a challenge for you. I'd defo send Kevin a PM, and strike whilst the iron is hot! ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
31-12-2015, 15:13
Nice one - that sounds cool. I didn't think GS stuff would represent too much of a challenge for you. I'd defo send Kevin a PM, and strike whilst the iron is hot! ;)
Marco.
Mines rather more expensive than his budget I believe... I'm sure he'll contact me if he's interested.
Edit: Ahead amp can be made quite cheaply.... a really good one though cannot!
Ok, decision made. I've decided to go the SUT route, for this little experiment, and have just bought this K&K Lundahl unit from AoS member neskor (got it for £150, which considering the cost of the Lundahl LL9226 transformers alone is a bargain):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/907/asWere.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7asWerej)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/908/wPxZOy.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p8wPxZOyj)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221972367617?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Lundahl transformers used inside:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/633/ozthH8.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/hlozthH8j)
The unit was originally bought assembled, direct from K&K Audio, in the States, costing $385. See here: http://www.kandkaudio.com/moving-coil-phono-step-up-kits/
I think that it'll go very well with my NOS DL-103AU, which is on its way from Japan (although some adjustment of gain/loading might be needed, which can easily be done): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?42267-A-wee-Christmas-present-to-myself
:cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
31-12-2015, 16:59
Nice one mate, let us know how it sounds.
Marco,
A bit of Reeves and Mortimer thigh rubbing in order chez Kember, I think!
Excellent!
Peter
Lol - cheers, guys. I think it'll sound good, but will report on how it performs when it arrives.
The Lundahl LL9226 transformers use an amorphous core material, said to result in less audible distortion than other types of materials, such as the Permalloys used by others for MC step-up transformers, so that sounds interesting.
If the SUT is here before the new cartridge, I can try it with both my Denon 103-C1 and DL-S1. The latter with its super-low output of 0.15mV should be a good match for the K&K SUT as it is, set a 26db of gain :)
I'll probably knock that back to 20, or so, for the stock 103.
Marco.
IslandPink
05-01-2016, 18:35
Too late to offer advice, I would have offered quite a lot ! I had Pieter Trieurniet build me a special pair for the 103R in 2014 that had higher primary inductance to help the bass end. This would be even more important for the 103 . These are about 2.5H on the primaries, most step-ups are less than 1.5H .
If my experience of Lundahl LL1676 ( was it ? ) amorphous phase-splitters is anything to go by, give them a hefty dose of running-in using a CD player output ( on repeat ) fed into the secondaries, with about 10R on the primaries ; several days. The amorphous cores and the Lundahl interlayers ( if they are the kapton material ) both require a lot of 'working' to make them transparent.
Hi Mark,
I had Pieter Trieurniet build me a special pair for the 103R in 2014 that had higher primary inductance to help the bass end. This would be even more important for the 103 . These are about 2.5H on the primaries, most step-ups are less than 1.5H .
Thanks for your (belated but nevertheless welcome) input :)
Not being terribly technical, could you explain what you mean by "2.5H on the primaries", specifically the primaries of what, and how was the adjustment made? Also what does 2.5H refer to, and how would that help the bass end?
At the moment, the 103AU I'm using (essentially a stock 103 in a custom headshell) sounds fantastic through my Paul Hynes MC head amp and Croft MM phono stage. There are no bass issues whatsoever, which here is tight, full and extended, with no bloat whatsoever, when loaded at 100 Ohms.
Also, who is Pieter Trieurniet?
If my experience of Lundahl LL1676 ( was it ? ) amorphous phase-splitters is anything to go by, give them a hefty dose of running-in using a CD player output ( on repeat ) fed into the secondaries, with about 10R on the primaries ; several days. The amorphous cores and the Lundahl interlayers ( if they are the kapton material ) both require a lot of 'working' to make them transparent.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean, as I used to use an Ortofon ST-80SE SUT (featuring Lundahl transformers), with an SPU Royal GM MKII, and it took quite a while to run-in and open up, from new. However, the new SUT I've bought, using the Lundahl LL 9226s, is a well used second-hand unit, so already run in. Therefore it should be good to go when I get it.
Marco.
P.S We're also not too far from each other, so we should have a sesh sometime :cool:
Ali Tait
07-01-2016, 07:30
Pieter runs Tribute Marco.
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your (belated but nevertheless welcome) input :)
Not being terribly technical, could you explain what you mean by "2.5H on the primaries", specifically the primaries of what, and how was the adjustment made? Also what does 2.5H refer to, and how would that help the bass end?
At the moment, the 103AU I'm using (essentially a stock 103 in a custom headshell) sounds fantastic through my Paul Hynes MC head amp and Croft MM phono stage. There are no bass issues whatsoever, which here is tight, full and extended, with no bloat whatsoever, when loaded at 100 Ohms.
Also, who is Pieter Trieurniet?
Yes, I know exactly what you mean, as I used to use an Ortofon ST-80SE SUT (featuring Lundahl transformers), with an SPU Royal GM MKII, and it took quite a while to run-in and open up, from new. However, the new SUT I've bought, using the Lundahl LL 9226s, is a well used second-hand unit, so already run in. Therefore it should be good to go when I get it.
Marco.
P.S We're also not too far from each other, so we should have a sesh sometime :cool:
H stands for henry.
Pieter runs Tribute Marco.
Lol - sorry, I'm not away of any of this. Who or what is Tribute?
Marco.
H stands for henry.
Churz, that helps a wee bit, just need to know what the rest of the post means now! ;)
Marco.
The measured units of inductance is in hendries(H) although the effect. IE inductance, is designated as L. Inductance is a pain in the ass to get the head around.
Thats about my limit of knowledge lol
Ali Tait
07-01-2016, 09:32
Lol - sorry, I'm not away of any of this. Who or what is Tribute?
Marco.
Tribute make some of the best transformers for audio on the planet mate. Not cheap though..
Ah, I see. Cheers, mate. Will do some research :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
07-01-2016, 09:49
Pretty much under the radar to the general audio community, but well known in diy circles mate.
Yup, hence why I'd never heard of it/him before :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
07-01-2016, 09:59
Yes indeed.
Ali Tait
07-01-2016, 10:02
http://www.tribute-audio.nl
Interesting website and products :thumbsup:
Marco.
anubisgrau
07-01-2016, 18:09
Too late for advice but IMHO there are two ways with 103, one is the one you took - trial and error - and another is A23 103 SUT.
the second is the best you can do for you sanity, the first is a good fun.
enjoy your choice!
Yup, hence why I'd never heard of it/him before :)
Marco.
But you have heard his work Marco , my px 25 amp has 4 of Pieter's transformers in, they are not too expensive considering, i have 5 pairs of diffent types in all and i think they sound just great
Too late for advice but IMHO there are two ways with 103, one is the one you took - trial and error - and another is A23 103 SUT.
the second is the best you can do for you sanity, the first is a good fun.
enjoy your choice!
Hi Gordan,
Thanks. I've had A23s in the past, both for SPUs and 103s, and they're superb. However, the imminent K&K SUT is just a bit of fun, as my main 'weapon of choice' these days is a Paul Hynes head amp :)
Marco.
IslandPink
07-01-2016, 23:06
Sorry to be cryptic. Pieter just retired, which is also unhelpful ! Tribute weren't even overly expensive, you just had to be patient , a year was not an unusual delivery time .
The cartridge internal resistance working into the primary ( of the SUT ) inductance forms a high-pass filter. 103's are one of the worst cases, being ~40R . They will show much better in the low bass and in bass timing when used into a head-amp or jFet-based front-end on a valve amp.
Hi Steve,
But you have heard his work Marco , my px 25 amp has 4 of Pieter's transformers in, they are not too expensive considering, i have 5 pairs of diffent types in all and i think they sound just great
Yup, although I didn't realise that your amp used his transformers. However, no doubt your amp sounds superb! :)
Marco.
IslandPink
08-01-2016, 12:02
- and another is A23 103 SUT.
Auditorium .... hadn't seen those before.
Do you know any more technical detail on the A23 Gordon ? - bit sparse !
I had the TX-103's from S&B originally and they were huge and had enough primary inductance for the 103, but they were not quite as transparent in the mids and treble as the ones I subsequently got from Tribute .
If you can do it, direct input to valve phono is the unltimate but it's not trivial to keep the noise at bay. On my next phono I'll be attempting to do this !
anubisgrau
08-01-2016, 12:34
my experience is just empirical - out of many "hyped" transformers i used at the time i owned 103 (siemens, haufe, cinemag, sowther, lundahl, god knows what...) by far the best sounding was auditorium A23 SUT made for 103. it's also a bit of a cryptic product, apparently based on some haufe transformer although i haven't succeeded to beat it with T-890 i once owned. the producer doesn't provide any technical info and if you open it, once again it doesn't help, nothing is marked. for those who doesn't know - 103 version shouldn't be mixed with SPU version, two entirely different SUTs.
my experience is just empirical - out of many "hyped" transformers i used at the time i owned 103 (siemens, haufe, cinemag, sowther, lundahl, god knows what...) by far the best sounding was auditorium A23 SUT made for 103.
Thing is, there are many different types of the transformers you've mentioned, all with varying sonic and electrical characteristics, so it's not simply as easy as saying: 'I've heard a Cinemag', or 'I've heard a Lundahl', or whatever, and *this* [X,Y,Z] is how it sounds... With SUTs, it's largely a matter or trial and error, and simply (by luck) hitting upon a 'magical' combination with the cartridge of your choice.
In that respect, I'll let folks know what I think of the (shortly due to arrive) K&K SUT, fitted with Lundahl LL9226s, compared with the Haufe-based A23 (103) I used for over a year, before moving over to my current Paul Hynes MC head amp (with matching linear PSU), which costs three times that of the A23, and more than six times that of the K&K - and I'll use them in conjunction with all of my available Denon cartridges: a DL-103AU [stock 103 in a custom headshell, as per my avatar], DL-103C1 and a DL-S1, and report the results here.
Stay tuned for that one! :cool:
Marco.
Very much looking forward to you findings - sounds like an interesting SUT shootout.
Pity there are no dealers around now who could let you do this with a wide range of SUT,s/head amps!
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 15:32
James, I've a Denon HA 500 head amp I can send you to try if you like. Come to think of it, I've three SUT's you could borrow too?
James, I've a Denon HA 500 head amp I can send you to try if you like. Come to think of it, I've three SUT's you could borrow too?
That's very kind Ali, I will let you know once I have decided which cartridge to go with.
If it is the Denon DS-L1 maybe you could advise which SUT would be the best match!
Arkless Electronics
08-01-2016, 15:39
Very much looking forward to you findings - sounds like an interesting SUT shootout.
Pity there are no dealers around now who could let you do this with a wide range of SUT,s/head amps!
There aren't enough head amps in existence to call them a wide range!
I know Jez, I was referring more to SUT,s. :)
There you go, then! :)
Yup, the days of listening to any of this stuff, at a dealers, before buying, are long gone. That's where forums like this come in handy.
Marco.
Ive got a £20 Chinese head amp...its bloody good for the money..silly good actually.. You could include one in your shoot out;)
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 17:21
Aye,have one of those too, not tried it yet though.
Ali Tait
08-01-2016, 17:23
That's very kind Ali, I will let you know once I have decided which cartridge to go with.
If it is the Denon DS-L1 maybe you could advise which SUT would be the best match!
Marco may be able to advise better. Of the SUT's I have, the Mayware T24 is the best, but the Denon head amp is just so much better than any of them. Bear in mind the DL S1 is very low output.
Better still, maybe i could persuade Marco to come over and bring his Head amp and a SUT that he feels compliments the DL S1 and try them in my system.
Oh yeah and borrow his Dl S1 to try - under strict supervision.:lol:
Lol... We can do all that stuff when you pop round :cool:
Marco.
Well, the K&K has just arrived! Currently installed and sounding rather lovely.... Full report later, once I've done some proper listening. However, initial impressions are extremely promising :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
09-01-2016, 11:41
I've been using two SUTs. A Luxman AD8000/8020, alongside an Osawa OS-100T. They each sound remarkable.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/luxman-AD8000.html
There's no data on the net that I can find about the Osawa. I believe it was one of only two shipped to the UK from Japan.
anubisgrau
09-01-2016, 11:48
I've been using two SUTs. A Luxman AD8000/8020, alongside an Osawa OS-100T. They each sound remarkable.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/luxman-AD8000.html
There's no data on the net that I can find about the Osawa. I believe it was one of only two shipped to the UK from Japan.
the luxman SUT from the link has a good reputation - i own a low impedance version 8030 for my SPUs and koetsus. some prefer it to a A23 SPU!
japanese vintage transformers can be pretty special. just got myself fidelity research FRT-5 with permalloy toroidal core and silver wire, still in japan. an addition to a vintage nap SUT collection consisting of luxman AD8000/8030 and tango MCT-999. you can never get enough of good SUTs, they always give you a reason to listen your record collection again.
walpurgis
09-01-2016, 12:03
just got myself fidelity research FRT-5 with permalloy toroidal core and silver wire
That's going to be nice!
I've just passed my FRT-3 onto another AOS member. That was a nice sounding little unit.
(if anybody is interested, there's a NOS Fidelity Research MC 201 cartridge on eBay at the moment: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIDELITY-RESEARCH-MC-201-NOS-INCREDIBLE-/121855963818?hash=item1c5f2e72aa:g:aQkAAOSwZVhWTwO 6 In modern terms. At the £536 or bids asking price it's a sonic bargain, considering that it's new. I've had a couple of these and they sound very good indeed)
Very nice thing indeed... I could imagine it pissing all over quite a few modern MC cartridges, at many times that price! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
09-01-2016, 12:23
The sound from the MC-201 has a lucidity and musicality similar to my ZYX Yatra. I believe there was a Boron cantilever version too.
walpurgis
09-01-2016, 12:26
A picture of the Osawa OS-100T. Anybody seen one before?
http://i66.tinypic.com/309k0eg.jpg
anubisgrau
09-01-2016, 13:30
not me. booster:)
IslandPink
09-01-2016, 15:54
japanese vintage transformers can be pretty special. just got myself fidelity research FRT-5 with permalloy toroidal core and silver wire, still in japan
That sounds REALLY nice !
That reminds me (the mention of the boron cantilever). I have had a 103r updated by Van Den Hull. I think either Mark or Ali has it at the moment, if anyone wants to have a listen to it let me know. Just FYI work was £432.00 inc VAT, and IMHO, is a good thing to do to a worn out 103r. The changes were fitting a boron cantilever and a VdH stylus.
IslandPink
09-01-2016, 22:12
Ali has it .... I told him no rush sending it to me !
Ali Tait
10-01-2016, 01:14
Yes sorry Mark, haven't sent it yet. You couldn't make this shit up - after me being unwell, my other half had a heart attack a week before new year. :-(
What!?
Hope things ok mate.
Firebottle
10-01-2016, 08:59
Blimey Ali, our thought are with you.
Hope things are good and improving.
Too right, mate. Hope that wasn't after she seen how much you spent on hi-fi last month? ;)
Seriously though, Ali, hope she recovers fully and gets well soon!
Marco.
Canetoad
10-01-2016, 10:12
Honestly, give her my best too mate. I pray that your luck changes soon..
All the best!
Ali Tait
10-01-2016, 10:14
Thanks chaps. She is not doing too badly, though may need a valve replacement further down the road.
Sorry to hear this news Ali but they can do wonderful stuff nowadays with heart issues.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Ali Tait
10-01-2016, 10:20
Cheers. :-)
Well, I've been listening to this little beastie since Saturday morning, with my vintage DL-103AU, and I have to say I'm extremely impressed! :)
I mentioned before that with SUTs, it's largely a case of luck when you happen upon a 'magical' combination with the cartridge of your choice, and I think I've achieved that with the K&K and DL-103... However, there may also be a little more to it than that.
Initially, I thought that the 1:20 step-up ratio (and 26db gain) of the K&K would be a little too much with the DL-103AU, as Denon's own SUTs tend to be of the 1:10 variety. However, it works a treat into the valve MM phono stage of the Croft, fitted with some glorious sounding (matched pair) 1940s vintage grey-glass RCA 6SL7 tubes, giving me, in terms of gain structure, excellent use of the dual-mono volume controls on my modified SA4-M Goldpoint passive preamp, as I'm currently using the Croft as solely a phono stage, with normal listening levels achieved with most recordings at around 10 o'clock on the dials.
I can say right now, without question, that this K&K SUT is considerably more open sounding, dynamic and punchy than the (rather more expensive) A23 unit I used to have, as good as that was at the things it did well. The A23 was a little sweeter and 'creamier' sounding, and perhaps overall more 'romantic', with a fatter bass. However, the K&K, with the superb Lundahl LL9226s on board, lays music bare for inspection, possessing masses of insight and 'attack' in a way that is nothing short of outstanding for the $385 (assembled) cost new of this device.
It has a glorious way with vocals, allowing them to be realistically, and very vividly projected, whilst also portraying them with the requisite tone and timbre to allow them to sound spine-tinglingly lifelike. When combined with the DL-103, tracking at 2.6g, on the Ortofon arm of my modified Technics SL-1210, there is a gloriously 'effortless' and assured aspect to the whole musical presentation, together with a rock-like solidity and 'drive' that one associates with the high-quality 'broadcast sound' once produced by the BBC, when using the best analogue reproduction equipment, during the heyday of FM radio.
Bass, with the K&K, is tight but suitably extended, when the music demands, and also superbly rhythmic, with convincing and musically addictive PRAT. The top-end is very wide-open, detailed and 'sparkly', but never fatiguing, allowing the lucid and valve-like midrange of the DL-103 a free reign to do its expressive and communicative musical magic, whilst really opening up its (arguably) slightly reticent high-frequency capabilities. The K&K is also totally hum-free (earthed, via the use of a separate wire, from a binding post on the unit itself to the Croft), and as such deathly quiet, which can't always be said with some SUTs.
I'm really quite gob-smacked at just how good the combination of the DL-103 and K&K SUT is, especially for such a respectably low price. As I said earlier, either I've just lucked upon a 'magical' combination, or those Lundahl transformers really are quite special and ideally suit the Denon both sonically and electrically. I suspect that the latter is nearer the mark. This basic version of the K&K is so damned good, used in conjunction with a Denon DL-103, that one wonders what the "premium" version, at $650 (assembled) would sound like...
I suspect that I'll be investigating that one sooner rather than later... However, in the meantime, I'm thoroughly enjoying trawling through my record collection and enjoying the extremely addictive sound produced by this combo, as it really does make music sound fun! :gig:
I'll post some pics tomorrow of the K&K in situ. In the meantime, more info on this unit can be found here: http://www.kandkaudio.com/moving-coil-phono-step-up-kits/
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
11-01-2016, 01:18
Ali, My thoughts are with you and your missus. That's a shit start to a year.... Hope it gets better!
Good write up Marco. You mentioned the 103 was a little reticent in the treble, is this possibly rectified in the 103r version?
All in all sounds like the K&K is a bit of a bargain and could well be a very cost effective route for me to start with using a MC.
Thoughts with you Ali, hope she makes a full recovery mate....
Marco, good to read your review. I've been using Lundahls in my phono stage for years now, never felt any need to change them, they work great with the 103 and also lower impedance cartridges, good result!
James, yes the 103R is a touch brighter in the treble.
Hi Jim,
The 103R is overall brighter sounding (although the stock 103, when working properly, is far from dull), but that's not quite the same thing as being more detailed at the top end. Much depends on the balance of your phono stage and system, and also your sonic proclivities.
I like the 103R, but find it just a tad 'hi-fi sounding', compared with the stock version. If you're thinking about going down the 103 route, I would start with the basic model, and if you consider it necessary, experiment further from there. In my opinion, the vintage upgraded models, such as the 103GL, 103C1, 103SA, etc, are all significantly superior to the 'R', but not always easy to find in NOS condition.
As for the K&K SUT, this has been a real find, and when partnered with the stock 103 combines to make outstandingly good sounds! :cool:
Marco.
Thoughts with you Ali, hope she makes a full recovery mate....
Marco, good to read your review. I've been using Lundahls in my phono stage for years now, never felt any need to change them, they work great with the 103 and also lower impedance cartridges, good result!
James, yes the 103R is a touch brighter in the treble.
Thanks Neal, my system needs a touch more in the top end so the 103R could be more suitable.
Marco, good to read your review. I've been using Lundahls in my phono stage for years now, never felt any need to change them, they work great with the 103 and also lower impedance cartridges, good result!
Cheers, Neal. What I like about these particular Lundahls, and the K&K SUT as a whole, is that they don't sound 'transformery', rolled off, or romantic/old fashioned - as such one could be listening to a good head amp instead, as the sound is equally as bold and dynamic. The Lundahls simply provide a wide-open, crystal clear window onto the music, but do so whilst avoiding any tendencies towards sterility.
Are you using the same LL9226s in your phono stages? :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
11-01-2016, 10:53
Thanks Jez and Neal, just taking it one day at a time.
Hi Jim,
The 103R is overall brighter sounding (although the stock 103, when working properly, is far from dull), but that's not quite the same thing as being more detailed at the top end. Much depends on the balance of your phono stage and system, and also your sonic proclivities.
I like the 103R, but find it just a tad 'hi-fi sounding', compared with the stock version. If you're thinking about going down the 103 route, I would start with the basic model, and if you consider it necessary, experiment further from there. In my opinion, the vintage upgraded models, such as the 103GL, 103C1, 103SA, etc, are all significantly superior to the 'R', but not always easy to find in NOS condition.
As for the K&K SUT, this has been a real find, and when partnered with the stock 103 combines to make outstandingly good sounds! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
The one area in my system which does need a little help is the top end as my speakers( Spendor SP2) have a dome fabric tweeter which is a little subdued regarding treble, the detail is there but not in your face. Hence I would be concerned about using a cartridge with a lack of top end, again I am not looking for brightness but do want detail so to that end I wondered if the 103R would suit better?
Arkless Electronics
11-01-2016, 16:48
103R. A no brainer for me. I don't do spherical styli ;)
Well, the 103R has one, daftee! :D
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
11-01-2016, 17:00
Aha! I thought the R was the elliptical stylus version but you are quite correct.... In that case I wouldn't touch either version with a barge pole!
I've been curious about the new Charisma Audio version of the 103:
ruby cantilever, line contact stylus, birdseye maple wood body and retuned suspension system
https://scontent.fsan1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12112019_318165158307759_983765520588685621_n.jpg? oh=67b8d15a433ca43656f03d428744012a&oe=5700B546
Aha! I thought the R was the elliptical stylus version but you are quite correct.... In that case I wouldn't touch either version with a barge pole!
Lol... Make sure you get to the next NEBO, as I'll be bringing my T/T along, fitted with a DL-103, as well as my Croft preamp/phono stage and K&K SUT. After that, I'll demo the T/T. fitted with a Shure M55E, after which I suspect you may wish to reconsider your position on those matters..... ;)
Marco.
IslandPink
11-01-2016, 22:45
I'm very pleased you're getting great results out of that, Marco.
Also shocked by Ali's latest news, but best wishes on that front . Maybe a holiday somewhere sunny this year if circumstances permit ? - the Scottish climate is a killer, I reckon .
walpurgis
11-01-2016, 22:55
Sorry to hear about your missus Ali. Hope she's OK soon.
Ali Tait
11-01-2016, 23:54
Thanks chaps.
Hi Jim,
I missed this from before...
Hi Marco,
The one area in my system which does need a little help is the top end as my speakers( Spendor SP2) have a dome fabric tweeter which is a little subdued regarding treble, the detail is there but not in your face. Hence I would be concerned about using a cartridge with a lack of top end, again I am not looking for brightness but do want detail so to that end I wondered if the 103R would suit better?
Possibly, but it's difficult to say without knowing what your system sounds like. I suspect that you'd like it. However, don't get the idea that the stock 103 is any way dull, because it isn't - certainly not when it's mounted in an appropriate high-mass arm/headshell, loaded correctly, and used with a top-notch valve MM phono stage/SUT or head amp.
Thus done, it sounds stupidly good for the money (and rather more money beyond that), and in a way that can make the 'R', as good as it is, sound overall less musically satisfying.
Marco.
Just popped over to vinyl engine and some of the comments suggest the lundahl transformers sound more transparent than the cinemag.
So that maybe why your K&K Audio SUT sounds so good Marco?;) Some folks have compared the Budgie with the K&K and the K&K edged it.
Thanks for that, Jim. I can't say I'm surprised, as "transparent" (musically) is precisely what the Lundahls are. Quite frankly, they leave other 'dome type' transformers (not sure of the correct term here), I've heard standing!
Subjectively, coloration appears as vanishingly low, which is why I like them, because unlike some folk, I don't use SUTs to provide a warm or euphonic sound. To my ears, the 'flat-type'/'wafer' construction of the Lundahl transformers appears to yield the superior sonic results :)
Marco.
To my ears, the 'flat-type'/'wafer' construction of the Lundahl transformers appears to yield the superior sonic results
Thats just the shielding case they are made in. The tributes are a similar shape, though larger. The small dome cases are a traditional mike transformer case, and were also made with pins intended for fitting into octal sockets. I try to avoid all the older flavour of the month transformers that were originally for microphone use as they often can sound as you describe. But in many cases the "they are old, so must be good" gets the better of people. The C shaped amorphous core is a lot of what you hear (or dont) with the Lundahl.
Late to this thread, as I've been away but I would like to pass on my best wishes to Ali for his partner's speedy recovery.
As to the subject of this thread, there is no ultimate SUT or head amp available; they all have their pros and cons. Personally I prefer to use a headamp, but there are many good SUTs available. Which SUT you use depends on the cartridge, and even then it is a subjective matter.
For the Denon 103, I have tried SUTs by Ortofon (Jergen Scheu), Partridge, Nakamichi and Haufe. I preferred the Haufe (sorry, I can't recall the model number at the moment - but looking at the spec sheet it seems to have been designed for the 103). The Haufe transformers are NOT those fitted into the Auditorium A23, nor are they the 891 mentioned by Anubisgrave.
Anyway I can't see any reason why the Lundahl should not be equally satisfying and were a manufacturer I thought about trying when I was looking at SUTs.
Ali Tait
14-01-2016, 19:07
Thanks Barry, much appreciated.
Hi Nick,
Thats just the shielding case they are made in. The tributes are a similar shape, though larger. The small dome cases are a traditional mike transformer case, and were also made with pins intended for fitting into octal sockets.
Ah I see, thanks for the clarification :thumbsup:
I try to avoid all the older flavour of the month transformers that were originally for microphone use as they often can sound as you describe. But in many cases the "they are old, so must be good" gets the better of people.
Indeed! ;)
I simply don't buy into that nonsense.
The C shaped amorphous core is a lot of what you hear (or dont) with the Lundahl.
I see... Well, for me, these LL9226s sound superb; way better than any other transformers (for MC SUT units) I've heard to date, and match the DL-103 extremely well (electrically and sonically). As such, the K&K SUTs are an utter bargain!
I suspect that their valve phono stage, shown here (with built-in Lundahl SUTs), would sound stunning: http://www.kandkaudio.com/maxxed-out-phono-stage/
Those are some quality 'innards', and all for a mere $2849! I intend to give one a go sometime, and compare it with the Croft :)
Marco.
Thanks Barry, much appreciated.
How's she doing now, Ali?
Marco.
For the Denon 103, I have tried SUTs by Ortofon (Jergen Scheu), Partridge, Nakamichi and Haufe. I preferred the Haufe (sorry, I can't recall the model number at the moment - but looking at the spec sheet it seems to have been designed for the 103). The Haufe transformers are NOT those fitted into the Auditorium A23, nor are they the 891 mentioned by Anubisgrave.
The Lundahls, for me, piss all over the A23 SUT I had (honestly, the difference isn't subtle), fitted with whatever transformers were in it.
The Jorgen Schou traffos I tried sounded superb, but were too high-gain for the SPU I was using, so had to move them on. I heard enough in the short time I had them, however, to believe them as being one of the better sounding vintage devices, and would certainly consider using them again in future.
Anyway I can't see any reason why the Lundahl should not be equally satisfying and were a manufacturer I thought about trying when I was looking at SUTs.
Honestly, I think you'll be impressed when you hear these ones when you visit. I was listening to this album, on vinyl, last night (which I'm sure you'll approve of), and it truly sounded as if they were both playing in my room:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/911/lEG6eP.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pblEG6ePj)
:cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
14-01-2016, 19:54
Not too bad thanks mate, though we had a trip to the hospital today, they are still tryimg to get her meds right.
Yeah, that's always a bit of a challenge. Try and stay positive. Anyway, I know you're not religious, but I'll light a candle and say a prayer for her at mass on Sunday. I guess that every little bit helps.
Marco.
Ali Tait
14-01-2016, 20:11
Thanks mate, all help appreciated!
Firebottle
14-01-2016, 20:30
I suspect that their valve phono stage, shown here (with built-in Lundahl SUTs), would sound stunning: http://www.kandkaudio.com/maxxed-out-phono-stage/
Amazingly similar design approach to my Phono section in the Firebottle KIN preamp.
You'll get to hear it at the end of the month Marco.
:)
I'll look forward to it, Alan. Does yours have built-in SUTs? For me, that's a major selling point of the K&K :)
Marco.
The Lundahls, for me, piss all over the A23 SUT I had (honestly, the difference isn't subtle), fitted with whatever transformers were in it.
The Jorgen Schou traffos I tried sounded superb, but were too high-gain for the SPU I was using, so had to move them on. I heard enough in the short time I had them, however, to believe them as being one of the better sounding vintage devices, and would certainly consider using them again in future.
Honestly, I think you'll be impressed when you hear these ones when you visit. I was listening to this album, on vinyl, last night (which I'm sure you'll approve of), and it truly sounded as if they were both playing in the room:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/911/lEG6eP.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pblEG6ePj)
:cool:
Marco
I have that album and it's very good.
Regarding the A23, the transformers used in it are made by Haufe, probably to a custom spec (neither they nor the manufacturer of the A23 will say), however they are not the one that I used (which I think are designated T-8873).
As I said there is no universal SUT design, they have to be chosen to go with a specific cartridge design. This is the price to be paid for the elegant simplicity of an SUT over a head amp, the latter which is more universal. But if you carefully choose the right SUT for your cartridge, then in the words of Mies van der Rohe "the less is more". :)
Firebottle
14-01-2016, 21:09
Does yours have built-in SUTs? For me, that's a major selling point of the K&K :)
.
No I use a FET cascode for the MC input, but you can always use an external SUT of your choice with the MM input.
:)
As I said there is no universal SUT design, they have to be chosen to go with a specific cartridge design. This is the price to be paid for the elegant simplicity of an SUT over a head amp, the latter which is more universal. But if you carefully choose the right SUT for your cartridge, then in the words of Mies van der Rohe "the less is more".
I do agree, on all counts :)
Marco.
No I use a FET cascode for the MC input, but you can always use an external SUT of your choice with the MM input.
:)
Cool. It'll certainly be interesting listening to it in my system, Alan. Plus, it'll be good meeting you again :cool:
Marco.
IslandPink
14-01-2016, 22:29
I was listening to this album, on vinyl, last night (which I'm sure you'll approve of), Marco.
Nice choice Marco. All of John Rebourn's albums are superbly recorded, usually by John Wood. He slipped away almost un-noticed over a year ago but I rated him as one of England's greatest ever musicians.
Nice choice Marco. All of John Rebourn's albums are superbly recorded, usually by John Wood. He slipped away almost un-noticed over a year ago but I rated him as one of England's greatest ever musicians.
Not unnoticed - Marco, along with a friend of mine were going to see him, at a venue in North Wales. When they arrived they found the performance had been cancelled due to the sad news of Renbourn's death.
Yes, that was a nightmare - in more ways than one! :(
Both were great musicians, and a sad loss to their fans. I believe that Jansch was a major influence on John Martyn (another supremely talented individual who is sadly no longer with us), and who remains as one of my favourite musicians of all time.
Marco.
anubisgrau
15-01-2016, 00:10
If you write to Haufe and ask for their recommendation for 103, they will offer you Haufe T-890. I think this is a old stock however there's a plenty of Haufe txs taken from various vintage pieces as they also did lots of OEM for EMT and other German brands.
Late to this thread, as I've been away but I would like to pass on my best wishes to Ali for his partner's speedy recovery.
As to the subject of this thread, there is no ultimate SUT or head amp available; they all have their pros and cons. Personally I prefer to use a headamp, but there are many good SUTs available. Which SUT you use depends on the cartridge, and even then it is a subjective matter.
For the Denon 103, I have tried SUTs by Ortofon (Jergen Scheu), Partridge, Nakamichi and Haufe. I preferred the Haufe (sorry, I can't recall the model number at the moment - but looking at the spec sheet it seems to have been designed for the 103). The Haufe transformers are NOT those fitted into the Auditorium A23, nor are they the 891 mentioned by Anubisgrave.
Anyway I can't see any reason why the Lundahl should not be equally satisfying and were a manufacturer I thought about trying when I was looking at SUTs.
If you write to Haufe and ask for their recommendation for 103, they will offer you Haufe T-890. I think this is a old stock however there's a plenty of Haufe txs taken from various vintage pieces as they also did lots of OEM for EMT and other German brands.
Interesting.
I'm surprised they can recommend anything at all considering how little English they understand. I found the ordering experience fairly difficult. A tip for anyone in the future trying to order from them, Western Union is by far the most inexpensive way to wire money to their account.
And like Barry, I too find the T7883s a great match for the DL-103.
Hi Gordan,
First of all apologies for getting your forum name wrong as well as misquoting the Haufe T-890. The Haufe transformers I used with the Denon 103 were the T-8873. I have spec sheets for both the T-890 and the T-8873; they are similar but the 8873 would, on paper, seem to be a better match to the 103.
The Haufe transformers fitted in the A23 SUT look similar but are taller than either the 890 or the 8773. I believe a loading resistor is fitted into the cans of the A23 devices (they have a measured input impedance of 100 Ohm) which is why they are taller.
anubisgrau
15-01-2016, 07:48
when did you buy T-7883 at haufe? i think they don't sell them anymore, at least 5 yrs ago when i bought mine they didn't have them.
unless i'm nuts and i had T-7883 and not T-890....:)
Canetoad
15-01-2016, 08:28
I have a set I ordered about 3 years ago. My wife is German, so that helped when I ordered them. They're still in the box they were sent in. I haven't got around to doing anything with them yet.
Anyone heard the Graham Slee head amp- looks very flexible re cartridge loading?
when did you buy T-7883 at haufe? i think they don't sell them anymore, at least 5 yrs ago when i bought mine they didn't have them.
unless i'm nuts and i had T-7883 and not T-890....:)
I bought them on-line (can't remember the site) around 2008. They are new samples and came with the original packaging.
I think I still have the packaging somewhere, which may have the distributor's name attached. If I can find them I'll report back.
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