View Full Version : Bo!ng Isolation feet
Just come home to find this in the letter box waiting for me.
15949
As soon as I get the car unpacked, I will post a couple of better pictures, and then settle down for a listen to my turntable before fitting the new feet.
Seems in my excitement, I have messed up the title of this thread, as they are Isolation feet.
Can someone with the power change it for me please?
Sorted! Let us know what you think, as I may be interested in some myself :)
Marco.
A couple of snaps:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1614/23771955570_6ffb5284bf_z_d.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5759/23440876573_d9b4b72fab_z_d.jpg
They look really well finished, and arrived nicely packaged. The fixing hardware supplied also looks of good quality.
The silver version will fit in nicely with my deck and system.
I am going to familiarise myself with a couple of albums, and then go for the change of feet..
Sorted! Let us know what you think, as I may be interested in some myself :)
Marco.
Thanks.
I will keep you posted.
Even though I have the Technics version, I have posted in this forum as they may well be of wider appeal.
To be honest, I was not quite sure where to put it. Maybe the "The Artist's Palette" is most suitable?
And now fitted.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1677/23986182921_dfe644436e_z_d.jpg
The Isonoe feet are not going back on. There is not a massive "night and day" difference, but I feel that these are better. More focus and separation seems to be the biggest improvement I am hearing.
I really like the effect that they are having, to use an old cliché, the "Window into the music is cleaner". And I think they look good too!
Well done Arthur. :youtheman: Another very effective tweak.
Oldpinkman
31-12-2015, 10:22
Well done Arthur. :youtheman: Another very effective tweak.
If you'd bought a nice sensible Pink Triangle in the first place, you wouldn't need to go putting tweaks on anything would you? :cool:
All good (and interesting stuff). I'm playing with other aspects of my system at the moment, but will definitely be trying some of these in the new year :)
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
31-12-2015, 12:12
If you'd bought a nice sensible Pink Triangle in the first place, you wouldn't need to go putting tweaks on anything would you? :cool:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron :ner:
Oldpinkman
31-12-2015, 12:53
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron :ner:
Ah - you mean like "feminine logic" - the most famous of them
I wouldn't try either of those lines anywhere near the missus. She has become a big PT fan. And this is the wrong place for this, but after the tax return season, I shall return to the theme on my "Happy Anniversary" thread. I have been on a voyage of discovery on another forum, which among other things has left me feeling among friends - and not as daft as I thought.
:ner:
RobbieGong
31-12-2015, 13:28
And now fitted.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1677/23986182921_dfe644436e_z_d.jpg
The Isonoe feet are not going back on. There is not a massive "night and day" difference, but I feel that these are better. More focus and separation seems to be the biggest improvement I am hearing.
I really like the effect that they are having, to use an old cliché, the "Window into the music is cleaner". And I think they look good too!
Well done Arthur. :youtheman: Another very effective tweak.
Hi Kevin, curious as to thoughts on what might be causing that over the Isonoes which dont appear to be too dissimilar a design ?
Secondly, Really like the individuality of your Techie upgrade(s) approach :)
Robert,
I think that the springs are more compliant, and have more travel in the BO!NG compared to the ISONOE suspension. After a brief chat by e-mail to Arthur it appears that the feet can be tuned to suit different weight decks by use of specially wound springs.
It is much easier to make the deck wobble now if you are a little heavy handed. The Isonoe always seemed a little too stiff to me.
Thanks for the kind comments.
Oldpinkman
31-12-2015, 14:19
I think the tuning is primarily done by adding or removing springs. Each foot can take up to 9 springs. I don't think any springs are "specially wound" - although I may not have been paying attention. The springs on my deck are beautifully wound! ;)
RobbieGong
31-12-2015, 14:49
Robert,
I think that the springs are more compliant, and have more travel in the BO!NG compared to the ISONOE suspension. After a brief chat by e-mail to Arthur it appears that the feet can be tuned to suit different weight decks by use of specially wound springs.
It is much easier to make the deck wobble now if you are a little heavy handed. The Isonoe always seemed a little too stiff to me.
Thanks for the kind comments.
Cheers Kevin, interesting stuf :)
carruthersesq
31-12-2015, 15:29
Arthur mentioned these to me some months ago and forgotten all about them. Think I'll give the a run out under my LSD.
Where did you order yours from Kevin?
Mine were a Christmas present, so I have no details of the order.
Oldpinkman
31-12-2015, 16:00
Arthur mentioned these to me some months ago and forgotten all about them. Think I'll give the a run out under my LSD.
Where did you order yours from Kevin?
In principle any Funk stockist should be able to supply. I know Arthur has been a bit overwhelmed with overseas orders, but there is UK stock available (I am told). I am sure Stag Audio had some sets. They are easily posted (speaks the voice of experience)
Mine were a Christmas present, so I have no details of the order.
Form your good lady? That's a thoughtful one :)
Marco.
carruthersesq
30-01-2016, 12:43
My good lady has just purchased (for my b'day) a set for under my LSD, arrived just this morning. Will get them fitted and update the thread.
RobbieGong
30-01-2016, 12:46
My good lady has just purchased (for my b'day) a set for under my LSD, arrived just this morning. Will get them fitted and update the thread.
Cool :cool:
carruthersesq
06-02-2016, 20:16
Well after some time I managed to fit the Bo!ng under my Funk Firm LSD and was surprised at how much movement the TT had under even the slightest touch, something I guess I will get used to.
I fired it up listening first off to Sprinsteens Tunnel of Love which I think is an underrated Springsteen album. Straight off I could hear a change, to me it sounded fuller and clearer. The gaps were quiter and overall I liked what I heard.
Second up I Ray Charles Genius Loves Company, again I heard the same benefits. Everything sounds a bit more solid, clear and real.
For the small outlay I think they are very worthwhile upgrade. Well done Arthur.
Bigman80
06-02-2016, 20:27
wondering if these feet are suitable for a toshiba sr370 ?
dont see why not... I was using Mag lev's under mine.. they were excellent.
walpurgis
06-02-2016, 20:56
wondering if these feet are suitable for a toshiba sr370 ?
You want to find out the load bearing capacity of the feet. The Toshiba is way heavier than most TTs of that size.
According to the blurb:
4-15kg (3-Springs)
16-25kg (6 Springs)
26-35kg (9 Springs)
Yeah I read that somewhere... mine do up to 24kg. Would think the 35 kg should be strong enough .. cant see it being more than that... price went up with springs I think. Often find the ones on a good jap deck are as good as you need. The micro absorbers ? on my new deck are very good.
Bigman80
06-02-2016, 21:18
Mag Lev's ?
Ok now im intrigued.....dont have the original feet on the TT due to postman destruction syndrome.
This may be the next upgrade !!
Tosh is only 15kg according to specs so should be no problems
Specifications
Drive system: direct drive
Drive motor: dc servo motor, 8-poles 24 slots
Speeds: 33 and 45rpm
Speed regulation range: 2%
Platter: 1.5kg aluminium diecast with stroboscope
Tonearm: static balance type s-shaped pipe arm
Effective length: 237mm
Overhang: 15mm
Cartridge range: 4 to 20g
Signal to noise ratio: 60dB
Wow and flutter: 0.04% wrms
Dimensions: 471 x 373 x 180mm
Weight: 15kg
Solidair Audio in Cornwall make the Mag Lev's... He is a member here, although not seen him post of late.
walpurgis
06-02-2016, 21:32
Mag Lev's ?
Ok now im intrigued.....dont have the original feet on the TT due to postman destruction syndrome.
This may be the next upgrade !!
Bear in mind that these feet offer a degree of isolation, but no damping. With the 15kg mass of of the TT it's not likely to be problematic. I like big sorbothane feet under my gear, as that damps and isolates. Although I've not needed them on the SR-370. Got them under the Cd, DAC and pre-amp though.
Bigman80
06-02-2016, 21:45
Solidair Audio in Cornwall make the Mag Lev's... He is a member here, although not seen him post of late.
Thanks Grant. I'll keep a look out then
Bear in mind that these feet offer a degree of isolation, but no damping. With the 15kg mass of of the TT it's not likely to be problematic. I like big sorbothane feet under my gear, as that damps and isolates. Although I've not needed them on the SR-370. Got them under the Cd, DAC and pre-amp though.
Big soborthane feet would be nice too.
hhmmm what to do ????
Bigman80
06-02-2016, 21:52
Solidair Audio in Cornwall make the Mag Lev's... He is a member here, although not seen him post of late.
Thanks Grant. I'll keep a look out then
Bear in mind that these feet offer a degree of isolation, but no damping. With the 15kg mass of of the TT it's not likely to be problematic. I like big sorbothane feet under my gear, as that damps and isolates. Although I've not needed them on the SR-370. Got them under the Cd, DAC and pre-amp though.
Big soborthane feet would be nice too.
hhmmm what to do ????
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vibrapod-Isolators-Model-Pack/dp/B003P50FTI ?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160206/9dfd6834840d4225ef3eef42b68e53a9.jpg
Thats what the mags look like
Bigman80
07-02-2016, 00:08
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160206/9dfd6834840d4225ef3eef42b68e53a9.jpg
Thats what the mags look like
Well! They're a bit special aren't they lol
walpurgis
07-02-2016, 00:15
Well! They're a bit special aren't they lol
Basically, they are a fancy 'spring'. No damping as far as I'm aware.
Bigman80
07-02-2016, 00:48
Basically, they are a fancy 'spring'. No damping as far as I'm aware.
Not a fan Geoff ???
Edging toward the "boots" I posted a link too. As long as they will fit the feet !
Oldpinkman
07-02-2016, 07:24
Basically, they are a fancy 'spring'. No damping as far as I'm aware.
As with the 774 we'll have to agree to differ about damping mechanical systems in hi-fi. I won't be rushing to add damping to the springs as part of my PT mods. I can see no reason to damp the suspension if it is set to a frequency around 2hz,and since the springs should filter most energy from the support platform any damping wants to be there. But as ever, rigidity would be my priority there too.
:cool:
I don't find the lack of damping an issue. You just have to be a little gentle when changing records etc.
When the record is playing, there is no outside influence that would cause the deck to move.
They really work well, as seen earlier in this thread.
Bigman80
07-02-2016, 10:21
This will probably be decided by budget for me. Soborthane feet are a few quid. Floating magnetic witchcraft is a lot of money (in my financial opinion)
It all depends on what you need.. Dampening or isolation. You could look at rock n rollers..
Ali Tait
07-02-2016, 10:32
I use these, found them very good-
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/accessories/sound-will-spike.html
walpurgis
07-02-2016, 11:02
As with the 774 we'll have to agree to differ about damping mechanical systems :cool:
No difference of opinion Richard. I was pointing out the characteristics, rather than making recommendations.
walpurgis
07-02-2016, 11:03
It all depends on what you need.. Dampening or isolation.
Try both. Sprung feet on Sorbothane pads! :)
Kevin, what did you do about the length of the screws in the Bo!ngs? For me they weren't long enough to both acuire a bounce and also grip the threads in the Techy base...
And how much bounce did you settle on? (The distance between the small boltheads on top pf the Bo!ng and the rubber part of the Technics chassi)
Did you try the Bo!ng without the Isofeet beneath? And finally, they replaced Isonoe's?
Lot's of questions! ;)
/Mike
I fitted 35mm screws.
They are long enough. Failing that, you could always go to 40mm.
I will measure the gap tonight. With my wall shelf, I don't need the Techniboots. They have replaced my Isonoes. I think the sound is better with the BO!NG fitted.
The Isofeet have moved elsewhere in my system.
Oldpinkman
08-02-2016, 10:45
I fitted 35mm screws.
They are long enough. Failing that, you could always go to 40mm.
I will measure the gap tonight. With my wall shelf, I don't need the Techniboots. They have replaced my Isonoes. I think the sound is better with the BO!NG fitted.
The Isofeet have moved elsewhere in my system.
Your kidding me. You are using isolation on cd players and amplifiers?? :doh:
Your kidding me. You are using isolation on cd players and amplifiers?? :doh:
That is not unusual in the world of hi-fi, Richard. I recall watching a video of a presentation from the RMAF where even the laptop used as a source is sitting on Stillpoints.
Whilst I'd agree that vibration shouldn't effect the sound of amps or cd players, what you sit them on can effect the sound, albeit subtly. I've no idea why this should be, indeed it shouldn't be, but it does.
Ive a mixture of isolation and absorbsion on everything
Oldpinkman
08-02-2016, 11:02
That is not unusual in the world of hi-fi, Richard. I recall watching a video of a presentation from the RMAF where even the laptop used as a source is sitting on Stillpoints.
Whilst I'd agree that vibration shouldn't effect the sound of amps or cd players, what you sit them on can effect the sound, albeit subtly. I've no idea why this should be, indeed it shouldn't be, but it does.
There are folk who could tell you why. But I'm not getting involved in that controversy again. When you can tell the difference with a sheet in front of the laptop so you cant see whether its on stillpoints or not - call me to collect your prize.
My comment was addressed to Kevin as an individual - I thought he was less "susceptible" :D
The laptop thing was an extreme example to prove my point i.e a lot of enthusiasts pay attention to siting of components.
Me personally I put 4 of those rubber washing machine feet under my power amp. They came out again pretty sharpish. There is something to it beyond expectation bias but I'm damned if I know what.
Your kidding me. You are using isolation on cd players and amplifiers?? :doh:
Hahaha....
Martin, he's not seen my system, has he? ;)
{Cough} Phase 16 Mana.... {Cough}
Marco.
They are sat around, so why not.
I still have glass shelfs, so I figured it would not hurt.
Spectral Morn
08-02-2016, 12:27
The laptop thing was an extreme example to prove my point i.e a lot of enthusiasts pay attention to siting of components.
Me personally I put 4 of those rubber washing machine feet under my power amp. They came out again pretty sharpish. There is something to it beyond expectation bias but I'm damned if I know what.
Laptops generate a lot of vibration, HD running, Fan etc so isolating it from the surface it sits on, to prevent if from putting vibration into that surface, to my mind, seems a sensible thing to do. I have my PC sitting on a SSC platform with iFi Power under it - using the space underneath to keep USB's short.
I don't believe doing this will improve the sound of the PC, except that it prevents vibration effecting other equipment on the table. Anything that can put vibration into the tables is kept off them, or is isolated from the table if that isn't possible.
I use both isolation devices and couplers were appropriate and that includes CD players, DACs etc
Oldpinkman
08-02-2016, 12:40
They are sat around, so why not.
I still have glass shelfs, so I figured it would not hurt.
It's the slippery slope mate. First steps to the dark side. "Never give in to anger, Luke..." :D
I am not actively buying more isolation, so you can rest assured, the force is still strong.
I go out of my way not to use hi-foo products.
Laptops generate a lot of vibration, HD running, Fan etc so isolating it from the surface it sits on, to prevent if from putting vibration into that surface, to my mind, seems a sensible thing to do. I have my PC sitting on a SSC platform with iFi Power under it - using the space underneath to keep USB's short.
I don't believe doing this will improve the sound of the PC, except that it prevents vibration effecting other equipment on the table. Anything that can put vibration into the tables is kept off them, or is isolated from the table if that isn't possible.
I use both isolation devices and couplers were appropriate and that includes CD players, DACs etc
I don't believe there is any way that the vibration from a laptop will effect the sound of, say, a power amp, even if you site it directly on top. (There is a long thread on PFM which goes into some detail on this, with measurements and listening tests). That's why I don't buy vibration as a cause. If it is not psychological bias then it is something else entirely, something not in the Ladybirds book of hi-fi physiks.
Don't get me wrong my approach is to start with absolute objectivity then temper that as appropriate with my own experiences. But to decide conclusively that there are no 'unknown unknowns' is mentally lazy IMO, as is deciding on the cause of a phenomona when that cause doesn't stack up when subjected to a little exploration.
The key is not to use a laptop in the first place, as an FBA source! Plain and simple, computers are extremely 'noisy' devices (thus create a poor environment for faithful music reproduction), and so, in stock form, are fundamentally NOT designed for hi-fi purposes :nono:
If you want genuine high-fidelity sound, from streaming, you can't do it through a standard laptop, which is why folks like me employ the use of a device, such as an RPi, and use it with a linear PSU.... :)
In terms vibration/resonance in audio equipment, and the resulting sonic effects of 'microphony', I believe that it is a genuine issue, suffered to some extent by ALL hi-fi equipment, and thus deserves to be taken seriously, and dealt with through isolation or some other form of effective treatment.
Marco.
So, you are saying don't use a computer, use a computer? :eyebrows:
Isn't a RPI just a cut down PC?
Yes, but it's an extremely simplified one, with as many extraneous applications to audio as possible, isolated out with of the signal path, resulting in the latter not becoming part of the 'noise environment'. It's simplicity (and directness, in terms how the on-board IQ Audio DAC operates), in that respect, is therefore key to why the RPi sounds so good!
That's why many folks who are seriously into FBA (such as Gazjam, and others), build their own servers, where one of the key tasks is to strip out all unnecessary 'gubbins', for audio purposes, and thus reduce noise in the circuit accordingly - and you can easily hear the sonic results of that :)
However, anyone who thinks that they can simply stream music through a laptop, and achieve genuinely audiophile-quality sound, I'm afraid is living in cloud-cuckoo land.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
08-02-2016, 14:13
The key is not to use a laptop in the first place, as an FBA source!
Plain and simple, computers are extremely 'noisy' devices (thus create a poor environment for faithful music reproduction), and so, in stock form, are fundamentally NOT designed for hi-fi purposes :nono:
If you want genuine high-fidelity sound, from streaming, you can't do it through a standard laptop, which is why folks like me employ the use of a device, such as an RPi, and use it with a linear PSU.... :)
In terms vibration/resonance in audio equipment, and the resulting sonic effects of 'microphony', I believe that it is a genuine issue, suffered to some extent by ALL hi-fi equipment, and thus deserves to be taken seriously, and dealt with through isolation or some other form of effective treatment.
Marco.
Don't disagree, though mine is not powered from the same part of the mains as the audio gear - dedicated consumer unit for audio only, and the PC is also connected to a Pandora's box. A PC can be optimised, but I agree they are not ideal, even dedicated built ones might not be ideal either, though I have not tried one.
I have seen the folks who have bought an Rpi on here and then sold them on as being too awkward to use and that puts me off, because my level of PC experience isn't great and at a guess these other folks abilities might exceed mine.
Anyway I am increasingly moving away from wanting PC audio as anything but back ground music.
This is now becoming thread drift.
computer circuitry injecting noise into the signal path has nothing to do with isolation from vibration and the Boing feet.
Spectral Morn
08-02-2016, 14:20
computer circuitry injecting noise into the signal path has nothing to do with isolation from vibration and the Boing feet.
See my last sentence ;)
Hi Neil,
Don't disagree, though mine is not powered from the same part of the mains as the audio gear - dedicated consumer unit for audio only, and the PC is also connected to a Pandora's box. A PC can be optimised, but I agree they are not ideal, even dedicated built ones might not be ideal either, though I have not tried one.
Indeed, but that's a different thing entirely from the noise reduction effects [and in turn sonic gains] of removing unnecessary (for audio purposes) parts of a circuit from a computer. You could hard-wire your computer to the national grid, or employ the use of the bestest/most bad-ass mains regenerator on the planet, and it would still make 'hee-haw' difference to the former ;)
I have seen the folks who have bought an Rpi on here and then sold them on as being too awkward to use and that puts me off, because my level of PC experience isn't great and at a guess these other folks abilities might exceed mine.
Indeed, but that of course is no reflection on its efficacy as a high-end audio source. Also, that's why it's handy having friends who are both nice guys and 'computer geeks'. If you didn't live in the back of beyond (i.e. on that wee green island of yours), you'd have more access to that kind of help, and as such perhaps find computer audio more enjoyable and less of a chore! :eyebrows:
Marco.
All of these feet suffer from the same issue and that is that they only offer vertical isolation rather than also isolating in the lateral plane (there is some lateral isolation but it is very much less). It could be argued that this is less true of materials like Sorbothane but then they are only effective at very low amplitudes of input.
How much do you expect your T/T to move laterally in normal use?
About as much as I expect it to move vertically, which is none at all.
Exactly.
They are isolation feet, so work by eliminating eliminating vibration from getting to the T/T.
Vibration is normal use is pretty small if the T/T is sited correctly, so you don't need much movement.
Don't disagree, though mine is not powered from the same part of the mains as the audio gear - dedicated consumer unit for audio only, and the PC is also connected to a Pandora's box. A PC can be optimised, but I agree they are not ideal, even dedicated built ones might not be ideal either, though I have not tried one.
I have seen the folks who have bought an Rpi on here and then sold them on as being too awkward to use and that puts me off, because my level of PC experience isn't great and at a guess these other folks abilities might exceed mine.
Anyway I am increasingly moving away from wanting PC audio as anything but back ground music.
This is now becoming thread drift.
Can easily set it up for you tbh they are not difficult. I've got a spare one if u want to try it
How much do you expect your T/T to move laterally in normal use?
It's not a question of how much one expects it to move. The point is that vibration doesn't conveniently channel itself into vertical movement just because ones bouncy feet would like it that way - for isolation to be effective it has to operate in all planes of movement. This is all well accepted engineering reality.
Exactly.
They are isolation feet, so work by eliminating eliminating vibration from getting to the T/T.
Vibration is normal use is pretty small if the T/T is sited correctly, so you don't need much movement.
Well a/ only to a point and b/ the amount of movement is not the relevant issue, it's the frequency range that the isolation operates over.
About as much as I expect it to move vertically, which is none at all.
If, for example, you have your turntable on some floor mounted structure and the floor is of suspended construction then walking about will inject significant movement (by turntable standards) into the deck. If you play music in the same room then it will introduce vibration to your deck and this is also movement. These are examples of high and low amplitude inputs. Just because the turntable isn't dancing about the room doesn't mean it isn't moving. If no vibration (movement) were present then no isolation would be needed at all.
It's not a question of how much one expects it to move. The point is that vibration doesn't conveniently channel itself into vertical movement just because ones bouncy feet would like it that way - for isolation to be effective it has to operate in all planes of movement. This is all well accepted engineering reality.
There is +/- 5mm of lateral travel easily available with my BO!NG feet fitted to my SL1200.
Having the threaded rod suspended by springs allows for movement in all planes. It is not constrained to a single plane, which is probably why I find them more effective than the Isonoe feet I had before.
Yes, but at what frequency is the lateral mode?
Yes, but at what frequency is the lateral mode?
I have no way of measuring that accurately. At a guess about 2Hz.
Ammonite Audio
09-02-2016, 08:10
Yes, but at what frequency is the lateral mode?
That will depend on the mass load, so will vary for each of the feet. Unless the mass load is equalised for each corner of the deck.
If, for example, you have your turntable on some floor mounted structure and the floor is of suspended construction then walking about will inject significant movement (by turntable standards) into the deck. If you play music in the same room then it will introduce vibration to your deck and this is also movement. These are examples of high and low amplitude inputs. Just because the turntable isn't dancing about the room doesn't mean it isn't moving. If no vibration (movement) were present then no isolation would be needed at all.
I understand that but my TT is on a stand that looks like a scale model of an oil rig and sits on a concrete floor. I thought people who had suspended floors used a wall shelf?
British high fidelity
09-02-2016, 08:34
I understand that but my TT is on a stand that looks like a scale model of an oil rig and sits on a concrete floor. I thought people who had suspended floors used a wall shelf?
Any chance of seeing your stand (mini oil rig) sounds interesting
My listening room has a suspended floor and I don't use a wall shelf - I don't need to because the deck has effective isolation.
I have no way of measuring that accurately. At a guess about 2Hz.
No, I understand that, it was a bit of a 'devil's advocate' kind of question. However, the lateral frequency will be very much higher than 2Hz (even the vertical is very unlikely to be as low as 2Hz) or the whole thing would shimmy about like a drunk in a hurricane. The nature of the opposing spring structure is that the vertical and lateral modes will be very different with the lateral being significantly higher than the vertical (as the opposing springs effectively stiffen the structure by opposing each other).
That will depend on the mass load, so will vary for each of the feet. Unless the mass load is equalised for each corner of the deck.
Yes, that's true. It will also vary according to the specific geometry of the supporting springs. Ultimately there-s no free lunch with isolation - what you gain in stability you loose in isolation and vice versa.
It is as stable as you could want under normal use.
I am not in the habit of being heavy handed when playing vinyl.
Under normal use, there is no need for lateral or vertical movement at a noticeable level.
You also need to take into consideration the geometry of the supporting structure to consider the effectiveness of the springs, as they are not acting in the horizontal plane. Far too complex for me to bother about doing the normal Spring/mass damper calculations for a non uniformly distributed load. All I can tell you is that it sounds good.
Before I fitted my wall shelf, I no longer needed to use my SDS Isofeet under the BO!NGs. They made no noticeable difference.
Ammonite Audio
09-02-2016, 10:30
A good design aim with this sort of thing is to ensure that all isolation elements behave identically, otherwise you end up with an overall system that fights itself, twisting and bobbing all over the place, each bit out of phase with the next. To my mind, the most elegant way of supporting a sensitive thing like a record player is to have it intelligently coupled to a reasonably massy patform, constructed so that vibrational energy entering it is dispersed and absorbed in a uniform manner. Then, mount the platform on spring systems such as the Townshend pods to provide effective isolation from external/structure-borne/seismic energy. Equalise the mass at each corner and it's largely job done.
One problem that I have encountered with relatively soft spring supports is that, on suspended floors, the spring system can in effect 'wobble' and that has a gyroscopic effect on the turntable's spinning platter. Not perhaps much of a problem for most people, but a direct drive deck's servo operation can be severely upset by this sort of thing, exaggerating the effect many fold. A good reason to use a good wall support, where the floors are bouncy.
Oldpinkman
09-02-2016, 11:00
That will depend on the mass load, so will vary for each of the feet. Unless the mass load is equalised for each corner of the deck.
The BO!NG are supplied with different mass ratings. The aim is to ensure the main resonance is subsonic - and below record warp frequencies. The suspensions allow lateral as well as vertical movement, which is relatively stable due to the springs being extended rather than compressed at "rest". The lateral frequency will be "about the same" as the vertical frequency.
Mark was correct to point out that effective isolation needs to control energy in all planes - and BO!NG is designed to provide "3D" isolation.
I have been holding off commenting on this because Arthur has yet another "secret" idea - regarding a suspended turntable design which is truly equally effective in every direction (front back, left right, up down). If he ever launches another suspended design, it will be a reference, and rather than an Anni copy is likely to incorporate the new suspension design which he is at least reserving the option of patenting. We toyed with incorporating it into my PT mods, but Arthur wasn't keen to "bare all" on a one-off mates turntable modification, when it might one day form the core of a new product. (Personally I hae me doots, but I understand his position)
But lateral movement in a suspension is important as Mark points out. BO!NG is designed to cater for that. It is not perfect, but better than other solutions (in that regard). The vertical and horizontal frequencies will vary with mass, but they can be "tuned" by changing spring number, configuration and compliance, and sets are sold "rated" for a specific mass (range).
:)
Oldpinkman
09-02-2016, 11:07
A good design aim with this sort of thing is to ensure that all isolation elements behave identically, otherwise you end up with an overall system that fights itself, twisting and bobbing all over the place, each bit out of phase with the next. To my mind, the most elegant way of supporting a sensitive thing like a record player is to have it intelligently coupled to a reasonably massy patform, constructed so that vibrational energy entering it is dispersed and absorbed in a uniform manner. Then, mount the platform on spring systems such as the Townshend pods to provide effective isolation from external/structure-borne/seismic energy. Equalise the mass at each corner and it's largely job done.
One problem that I have encountered with relatively soft spring supports is that, on suspended floors, the spring system can in effect 'wobble' and that has a gyroscopic effect on the turntable's spinning platter. Not perhaps much of a problem for most people, but a direct drive deck's servo operation can be severely upset by this sort of thing, exaggerating the effect many fold. A good reason to use a good wall support, where the floors are bouncy.
Certainly a solid wall support is my preferred support. Suspension stability varies with designs - and my Pink Triangle is inherently more stable than (say) an LP12 due to the suspension hanging from springs instead of sitting on them, and having the centre of mass at the centre of suspension. BO!NG on a Techie is closer to a PT than an LP12 in that regard.
I have only really listened to it properly on the 3 spring set for a Rega RP1 - and I say "properly" - this was perched on a flimsy floor unit, on a portacabin floor, with Arthurs 2 "full range" Technics speakers at sensible volumes (we don't listen loud) and it had no issues and sounded jaw-droppingly closer to a Pink Triangle than a standard RP1 on its own feet.
But a solid wall shelf is on my list for the installation at the new house. :cool:
Spectral Morn
09-02-2016, 11:07
I understand that but my TT is on a stand that looks like a scale model of an oil rig and sits on a concrete floor. I thought people who had suspended floors used a wall shelf?
Certainly the ideal. Concrete floors depending on how they have been done can still suffer from vibration, just less than suspended.
Ammonite Audio
09-02-2016, 11:22
I have been holding off commenting on this because Arthur has yet another "secret" idea - regarding a suspended turntable design which is truly equally effective in every direction (front back, left right, up down).
Interesting! I'm also working with an established manufacturer on a slightly different turntable design that addresses these things (and a few more).
anyone who thinks that they can simply stream music through a laptop, and achieve genuinely audiophile-quality sound, I'm afraid is living in cloud-cuckoo land.
I think you would be very surprised what can be achieved using a laptop. I also think you would be equally surprised by how most music is recorded these days.
Bigman80
09-02-2016, 13:05
No doubt there is truth in the fact that audio from a laptop is "noisy". I just bought a Gramofon wireless streamer and the difference in sound quality is tremendous. Might not be up to "audiophile" levels but for £25 it's a massive upgrade.
I think you would be very surprised what can be achieved using a laptop. I also think you would be equally surprised by how most music is recorded these days.
Lol - I'm fully aware of it, Adam, and some of the electronic/dance music produced, via laptops, can sound superb (mainly due to the simple and direct nature of the recordings) - but that doesn't mean that they are *ideal* for that purpose, or as a playback device.
There's no doubt that laptops are rather 'noisy' items, when used for audio purposes, and although good results can be obtained from their use, if judicious steps are taken to tackle that noise, it results in significant gains, sonically :)
Marco.
I had a decent laptop system, although it was a tad convoluted, but moving to the rpi both simplified matters and improved the sonics by a marjin
The key to getting good sound out of a laptop (or any PC) is not running Windows and it's lousy sound system (use Linux or MacOS) and using a DAC that uses an isolation transformer on the USB input. But why bother when the Pi and a big USB hard drive is so cheap.
Getting back on topic, I now have a pair of BO!NG Isolation feet on the way. I'll have them by the end of the week.
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