Help with Lack of Percussion from Speaker System

[Hipper]

I like the sound of my Red Book CD system but from listening to headphones I know that it is lacking in some percussion detail. This detail often gives a nice rhythmic input which I would really like to hear from the speakers.

The possible causes are:

1. Room treatment - maybe I've dampened it too much?
2. Speaker/listening position. I've done my best on this and used REW to help.
3. Some filter arrangement on my DAC.
4. Poor use of an equaliser. I have tried to EQ for this percussion (around the 6-8kHz area) but there are penalties in the form that some tracks are too harsh, and added sibilance in some cases.

Possible solutions.

1. Alter room treatment. Some of the stuff is mobile but some is not!
2. Speakers nearer to me, perhaps at some radical angle (e.g. practically in line with my ears like giant headphones!), or raising them higher, or leaning them forward?
3. Try different filters, and perhaps a different, more modern, DAC.

I do believe my speakers are capable enough. They have ribbon tweeters. My DAC acts as a pre-amp.

Am I asking the impossible? I'm 62 and know my hearing has deteriorated but I can hear this on headphones so why not on speakers?

Any ideas gratefully received!

(originally posted in the 'What are your 2016 Hi-Fi projects' thread)

[Hipper]

I should add that my headphone system is a separate entity. It consists of a computer (from Quiet PC) as source, my Red Book CDs ripped and stored on the PC's internal hard drive, T&A DAC8, Headamp GS-X Mk2 amp, and Senheisser HD800 in a balanced arrangement.

The amp has taken the sound from my headphones to new levels compared to my previous one (a Headroom Blockhead). With the Blockhead I had just about got the percussion on my speakers to match the headphone set up. The GS-X has moved the headphones beyond what seems possible on the speakers.

[jandl100]

What's your main system? :scratch:

[Desmo]

What's your main system? :scratch:

Yes without details of the kit you are talking about, I don't know how we can advise.

[jandl100]

A photo or 2 showing the layout and the room treatment you have would be good, too. :)

[Hipper]

My profile has my gear but I'll describe it:

TEAC P/70 Transport, Behringer DEQ2496 digital equaliser (using digital only), TEAC D/70 DAC, Son of Ampzilla amp, VMPS RM30M speakers. I also have a PS Audio P10 Power Regenerator, Symposium platforms and Rollerblocks under the gear, plus platforms under the speakers. In addition I have GIK room treatment products.

Most of this kit is ten years old or so.

Pictures:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2ps2edd.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/255qkgo.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2evt2lx.jpg

I've spent a lot of effort trying to get positioning right and am reasonably free to move the speakers and chair anywhere in this 420cm x 386cm x 240cm room. I've also tried to reduce the ambient noise by using triple glazing (makes a nice difference - adding a third glass layer to existing double glazing).

[jandl100]

In your profile! :doh: Sorry, didn't think to look.

Gosh, that's a fine and unusual system for the UK.!

Looking at this review, your speakers should be AOK. http://www.stereotimes.com/speak091204.shtml

My 1st impression was 'wow, that's an interesting system'
My 2nd impression was 'my, that's a LOT of room treatment panels'.
-- I'd experiment with taking some away and putting a large thicker / damping rug on the floor in front of the chair to help tidy up the treble.

Other thoughts -

- the Son of Ampzilla amp looks a bit of a beast. Is the P10 regenerator up to feeding it? I've had experience of big amps losing their get-up-and-go with a regenerator. A 300wpc Krell definitely did not like it and much preferred to be powered directly from the wall socket.

- what do you use the DEQ2496 for? Is it necessary? I'm a fan, especially in pure digital mode, and I have used one and still own one. But my current system is happier without it in circuit.
edit: I've just re-read your point 4. Hmm. A re-balance of the room treatment and afore-mentioned new rug might help instead.

:)

[YNWaN]

The first thing I would try is removing the PS Audio regenerator.

[Hipper]

I originally used a power conditioner and thought it did a good job. However I was finally persuaded to remove the amp from it and plug it direct in the wall and that action certainly improved things although the other gear benefited from remaining with the conditioner. I've only had the P10 a few months and I would say it enhances the sound. If anything it improves percussion for example.

The Behringer is used to try to improve on room treatment and positioning. I don't vary it with music played although I could of course because of the large range of mastering there is with music. My aim has always been a flat frequency response. I know many experts say that's wrong (suggesting a slope going down 2-6dB from low to high) but I've yet to be convinced by their arguments, both in the theory and the practice. When I've taken the Behringer out of the system, both in 'Bypass' and completely removed, I didn't like what I heard. It is something I will try again but all my attempts to find some sonic faults with it have failed.

Regarding room treatment, I agree it is a lot but it's mostly bass traps. I don't have any side wall or ceiling products to stop reflections there. Ceiling absorbers had no impact that I could tell and side wall reflections enhance the sound if anything. The wooden floor (of my first floor flat) has a sonic insulation material on it (like a very thick carpet underlay), carpet tiles and then the thin grey rug. The dispersion of the tweeters is supposed to be 30 degrees vertically and is said to be 'broad' horizontally. The cross over from the mid to high drivers is 6.9kHz.

[jandl100]

Hmm.

Maybe your headphone system is artificially enhanced to make it sound more 'impressive' on percussion?

or

How far away from the speakers do you sit? I prefer a near-field position to extract the most detail from my music. If you are too far away the room reflections smooth things over, ime.

[Audio Advent]

To work your way through logically, I would take the sources from the system you like (headphone system) and plug it all straight into the Sun of Ampziller.

That way you know in which direction you need to turn - either forward of your Son of Ampzilla's inputs or before its inputs.

You can also try it the other way around too with your head-amp etc as the front end to your main system's sources, even add the behringer in somehow .

(I hope I'm using the right term, "front end" as it's an arbitrary phrase to me... is the front the bit that connects to you (speakers, amps) as I'm using it here, or is it the beginning of the chain (the source)? )

[gadgie]

I'm no expert on this, but I always thought that headphones gave better detail due to proximity to your ears. I have Momentums and HD650, and both give a great level of detail then my speaker set up. I'm not saying a better sound, but better detail if you know what I mean.

[Hipper]

That's a good idea to add the whole headphone source (PC through to DAC) to my speaker amp. It's a right palava but would be interesting.

It had occurred to me that the proximity to the speakers might be the issue. When I was testing this before I found putting my ears close to the tweeter revealed some of the lost percussion. There may be two aspects to this: distance; and angle in relation to my ears. For example, if the speakers were at ninety degrees to my ears instead of about thirty. I tried that once but the sound was awful, but that was the overall sound so perhaps if I paid attention to overall frequency response from this position maybe that could work. I've never seen anyone suggest this though and my guess is there would be penalties elsewhere.

[ScottL]

Lack of percussion detail can have a number of causes (and it depends on what you mean by it, since it's not a 'set in stone' definition). Typically I would class it as an issue with the leading edge of transients / the rise-time. Loudspeakers are typically at a disadvantage in this regard compared to headphones, as they're a more complex load, and you've got room effects to add into the mix.

I can't comment on hardware upstream of the speakers, other than to note that an amplifier with a low output impedance & over-specified PSU tend to be preferable for big multiways unless they were specifically designed otherwise. Simple solid-core wire (as in single-strand for each leg -doesn't have to be fancy) of sufficient gauge to ensure voltage drop is minimised has also been known to make a difference.

If you can access the crossover & are willing to do some tweaking, it may be possible to make some minor modifications there which could improve things somewhat. Depends if you want to get the soldering iron out.

[gadgie]

As I've said. I hear more detail through my headphones than I do through my speakers. however, it's a different sensation altogether. the fact that you hear it is you put your ear to the tweeter leads me to think the same would be for you. with headphones the sound is right there. Speakers have other things to contend with such as room dynamics or whatever. You might be looking for a holy grail if you are looking to get the same 'detail' from speakers as you get from high end headphones. Both have their place in hi-fi.
Writing this has made me think of an example I found. On Teenage Fanclub 'Grand Prix' there's a track (3) I think it's called 'mellow doubt'. It starts off real quiet with an acoustic guitar and the singer. during lines I can hear him taking an intake of breath before the next line. Really clear on the Momentums, less clear on the HD650, and I really struggle to hear it on the speakers. So I reckon the headphones are giving me better detail due to being close to my ears. I might be wrong of course. Go try to listen to the track and let me know:)

[Hipper]

I can see your point, namely that perhaps a speaker set up cannot reproduce this detail.

However, musicians, engineers and producers have combined to get this information on the chosen media. I know it's there because I hear it on headphones. They've mostly used speakers to do this haven't they so surely it is not unreasonable to have the objective to try and extract it all, especially as the missing sounds are not just interesting but add to the music.

Anyway I appreciate all the comments here - thank you. I'm going to experiment more (using some of the above suggestions) to see how far I can get with this and will report back in due course.

[zanash]

ok nothing wrong with your kit ........but you could try a few things ......I agree deq2496 is a good tool ...but my system sounds really bad with it in circuit even set to null ....
your speakers look to be too close to the side wall and not far enough out from the rear. Your sound absorption looks to be placed in positions its least likely to help ..imo ! you need to kill that first reflection ...so thumbs up for a rug ...I'm assuming you know about the mirror on the floor trick ?

for those that don't .... sit in your usual listening position ..place mirror on floor and get willing assistant to move it about till you can see the left tweeters reflection [note position ] then do the right tweeter. Then do same for the walls. These are the positions you need you rug/sound absorption. Placing sound absorption behind the speakers ..is trying to emmulate no rear wall so your going to get a sound like you would if your speakers were out side..similarly those behind your listening chair...Thats not to say you should not use them you just may need to rethink there best position.