View Full Version : Roon Labs users?
I've just started a trial of Roon Labs music software and was wondering if some of you good folks had any experience to share?
http://www.roonlabs.com
Software is created by the Sooloos guys and it truly is a new xperience for handling a large file based music library!
I tried it - I loved it - I bought a years subscription. I find myself using it more than anything else, so I shelled out for a lifetime subscription (as they had a discount on at the time).
A lot of people will say its a hell of a lot of money for a piece of music management software, but it's the most trouble free reliable, flexible and gorgeous piece of music management software I've ever used. It has made me treat the collection of digital audio files on my NAS drive as a serious music collection. The way you no longer have to faff about with tags or where all of your files are stored and just let Roon do everything for you (after you've told it EXACTLY how you want everything sorted) is just astoundingly good and it means you can forget about organisation and just enjoy the collection. The way it keeps track of your files by using their audio data is genius. The 'discover' page I use regularly if I'm feeling a bit like I need some inspiration of what to listen to and every time, without fail it takes me on an unexpected journey of enjoyment of my own collection. If I'm listening through headphones through my DAC connected to my PC it recognises the DAC and uses its own drivers and it sounds amazing and it outputs the correct bit-depth and sampling frequency depending on your files too. It handles any file format you care to throw at it (which when you've got a large FLAC connection and a Mac that's a real bonus).
Most of the time though I just have the server running and use my Sony tablet to navigate it with. The server then outputs to my Raspberry Pi via Airplay (at the moment) and I have the most seamless and enjoyable digital music system I've ever had. I know it integrates very well with Tidal too but I dropped my Tidal subscription as I just prefer Spotify these days (most of my streaming is done when I travel rather than at home).
I'm also very excited about the future of Roon. Roon Speakers to me will be the icing on the cake when there is a dedicated Raspberry Pi build for it.
Thanks Richard! It seems to me i'll have to take the punt for a subscription too! :)
It's really in a different league to other playback software.
And as of today they even support Squeezebox players (still beta, but available nevertheless)
I actually put together a short intro about e basics in my own language, but i think ill make an effort to translate it into the Queen's English!
I'm also very excited about the future of Roon. Roon Speakers to me will be the icing on the cake when there is a dedicated Raspberry Pi build for it.
I am currently using RPi with HiFiBerry sourcing Tidal through ickstream and controlled by Squeezepad. Having seen Roon in use I am also anxiously awaiting Roon Speakers. You mention a dedicated RPi for it. Can you give a bit more detail please or a link to further information on this.
Thanks :thumbsup:
Had mixed reports re Roon system. It is pricey but if you guys rate it then sure it must be good. Ive got Jriver which is dear enough along with Amazon prime whos music is better than many give credit to. Look forward to more updates to this thread:)
Was keen to try this, then found out it does not support the older ipad's.
Light Dependant Resistor
22-12-2015, 08:59
Hi
I am always suspicious of firms like this that do not out of the box provide Linux
but at least they are thinking about it. https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-for-linux/2116/9
Many other nice alternatives in Linux already, so not too much to worry about if they don't
provide for the other half of the world. :rolleyes:
Cheers / Chris
I am currently using RPi with HiFiBerry sourcing Tidal through ickstream and controlled by Squeezepad. Having seen Roon in use I am also anxiously awaiting Roon Speakers. You mention a dedicated RPi for it. Can you give a bit more detail please or a link to further information on this.
Thanks :thumbsup:
Yes, there is a discussion about the Raspberry Pi build over on the Roon Forum here: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/raspberry-pi-support/1129
Specifically this quote from one of the Roon developers:
RoonSpeakers is in the works, both for Raspberry Pi type users and with hardware partners. It's probably a few months out, but it's being worked on. Raspberry Pi 2 is one of the first platforms we will target for that stuff.
Was keen to try this, then found out it does not support the older ipad's.
Yeah, that's a real shame. I also wanted to run it on an older Dell Latitude I have surplus to requirements. Would have made for a perfect little headphone based listening system but Roon is pretty graphics processing intensive and has to run on OpenGL3 in Windows. I gather it's down to processing speed in the original iPad that stops it from working well too.
Brief overview of music management system Roon Labs
Prerequisites:
*. A well functioning network preferably both wired and wireless.
*. A computer with access to the same network.
*. A music library available on the network as a share. Not a necessity but a good starting place for Roon to identify your musical prefs.
*. A Tidal subscription. Not necessary either but a very worthwhile addition.
At least one of the above music sources is critical. Otherwise it would'nt be of much use would it? ;)
*. An audio output solution either on the computer intended as library manager or in the form of a networked Airport Express/Squeezebox
*. A Roon Labs account (Free trial 14days, 1yr subscription $119, Lifetime subscription $499)
*. Preferrably a tablet connected to your local network, such as an iPad to remote control the library and allow for the option to get freakin 'puter out of the listening room ;)
Lets get started! Go to roonlabs.com and download your library software. It installs itself and automatically selects the normal "current user Music-folder" as the source for music locally.
It will also ask you for your musical prefs and add predefined collections of music from Tidal in gernes such as Jazz, Pop, Rap Classical. These are curated playlists from the Roon guys and contain "must have" albums for each genre. These are NOT stored locally on your pc, they are included in your library but wil play from Tidal when called for. So, if your sub. ends these wont be available.
That may or may not be the preferred source of music so i personally pointed Roon to my network attached storage.
It does not take long for Roon to identify the source files and build the library. It does, however, take considerable time to do the complete analysis of each file.
This part is not necessary for being able to use the library but it caches file info such as a visual description of the song, establishes volume normalization levels etc.
While the library is being built, you might as well go configure some audio endpoint. From the beginning your defult audio output from the 'puter will be available.
In the Settings dialogue you'll quickly find the Audio Setup page. Here you can enable and configure your preferred audio output solutions.
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image3.jpeg
XMOS USB Audio 2.0 is the USB->AES/EBU-converter i use to better the audio output on my MacMini. It is then wired to the corresponding input on my preamp/streamer/DAC Bladelius Embla via AES/EBU, hence the given name "Embla"
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image4.jpeg
When clicking on the cog wheel symbol to the right of enabled audio output you get the full configuration dialogue for each unit. This is the XMOS USB Reciever settings available for my Gustard U10. As you can se, there is an option for sending DSD to the unit, in either native or DoP-mode.
Thats about it, let's enjoy the music! Oh, no, wait! Set the option to "Allow remote" if you are planning to remote control your library from a tablet or other computer. Otherwise youll end up scratching your head for some time, as i did :/
The view of the software is pretty much identical wheter you are using it on your computer or on a tablet, so these are screen dumps from my iPad.
Overview screen
At the top of the screen there is always this browser-like navigation bar
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/top.jpg
To the very left is the main meny from where you have easy access to Overview, Settings, Artists, Albums etc. Then there are the usual browser-like navigational buttons. To the right side the bookmark function allows you to go back to certain views that you like and of course the search function. Find genres, composers,artists, albums etc in your collection.
The bottom part of the screen is dedicated to the playback controls
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/bottom.jpg
As usual; Rew, Play/Pause, Fwd to the left, after that the playlist symbol. Shifts the view to the current playlist and back to whatever you were viewing. The small "led" to the left of the artist name gives a clue to current playback conditions and whether or not you can expect a real HiFi experience. If it is purple you are playing RedBook lossless material and routing your audio through a lossless path with some forma of "exclusive mode" for the sound card. Give it a click to see the current "audio path":
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image12.jpeg
Settings are in place, your library is available and you have configured an audio path, lets play some music!
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image678.jpg
This is a compilation of the Overview-screen. The view is always in "landscape" and by scrolling the view up and down you wouls see something similar to this. Once in awhile some other sections are inserted here, such as the opportunity to add curated selections of music to your library etc.
Almost everything is clickable in Roon, artists, albums, genres, composers etc etc. As you can see in the upper part, its easy to add profiles for your household members that perhaps does not share your particular taste for Slayer and Burt Bacharach! ;)
Your "physical" library is shared for all, unless they choose to hide certain artists, albums, genres. The Roon curated collections are added per profile so if your wife would like to add "death metal" to her profile that won't be visible for other profiles.
Album- & Artist playback
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image11.jpeg
As an example, i chose to play Rebecca Pidgeon - The Raven from my local library. The little pencil to the bottom left of the artist picture is for editing the album info and Roon labs uses it's own metadata which contain all the necessary connections and tags that makes Roon labs unique. However, some albums and collections gets classified in a manner i personally dont like. As an example i have a Jazz Collection of 25 classical Jazz albums. I dont want each of these albums as part of a "various artists" collection named "25 Jazz Classics", i want them as individual albums such as "Billie Holiday - Lady in Satin" etc.
As noted, almost everything is clickable and possible to use a springboard for a new musical experience. An example, when clicking "Alternative Singer-/Songwriter" in Rebecca Pidgeons view you are presented with this view:
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image13.jpeg
Playlists
This is an example playlist, with mixed songs from local and Tidal libraries. Trentemøller is playing at the moment, from local library. In queue is "She Zoremet" with "Infected Mushroom", this one from Tidal. The microphone symbol displays that lyrics are available through a click. I have pretty good structure on my library but Roon takes it to another level, adding lyrics, production and all other sort of info that makes it special.
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image5.jpeg
Full screen focuses on the artwork as most other software does.
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image.jpeg
"Transfer to.." is a nice touch, let's you transfer the playing queue to another output. I still havent tried grouping different outputs togheter though. Thats not one of my prefs.
Audio units
You can send the audio otuput to any unit you have configured (and enabled) in the settings dialogue, even Airplay units and Squeezebox's.
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Roon/image2.jpeg
Summary
After a few days i am amazed and looking to purchase a subscription of Roon. It has in a few hours managed to untangle my music library of about 50K tracks into an encyclopedia of musical experiences. Classical music is suddenly available in a completely different manner, listening to particular work, or learning more of the composers of this and that period etc. For me, very helpful, as i am a total "newb" on classic music.
That's a very nice overview of Roon there Mikael.
I updated to the latest version of Roon yesterday and noticed that there is now support for streaming bit perfect audio to the Squeezebox which is great news. I then spent about 20 seconds kicking myself that I'd sold my SBT earlier this year before remembering that I could get a Raspberry Pi to run Squeezelite, so I spent about 20 minutes downloading and installing it alongside my current Moode audio setup on the Pi and it works a charm and the direct streaming is a massive improvement audio quality wise on using AirPlay.
This setup seems to me like the best of both worlds as if I'm sat for a serious listening session I use Roon/Squeezelite and if it's just radio in the background/Spotify etc. I can still use Moode and can switch between the two on the fly.
I am on the trial, running the Mac version into the dac section of my Sabre UV player.
Must say I am really impressed with the way it sorted out all the music on my HD and I find the sound quality is excellent, much more natural sounding than the other players I have(JR21 and A+).
My only gripe is the remote apps only work on the latest Air ipads or Android tablets not phones but there is a basic remote phone app in the making according to the forums.
It really does need a big tablet to work well as a remote. i got it to run on my 7" Google Nexus tablet but everything was just a little too small for comfort. On a 10" tablet however, it looks stunning.
On an iPad Pro it looks amazingly clear and crisp.
I use two iPads, one Air and one Mini2. Roon Controller app runs just fine on them both and looks fabulous.
And yes, i have coughed up the fee for the first year! Just couldn't live without this great functionality, just hoping that Bluesound will allow for a Roon endpoint in the near future.
occamsrazor
13-01-2016, 00:21
AlfaGTV - that's a really nice write-up, thanks a lot.
NP Ben!
For those of you that would like a "core" server functionality, there are a few installers available;
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/why-the-demand-for-opengl-3-0-on-the-library/6613/2
I wasnt able to get it to function on my server 2012R2 unfortunately as it needs a couple of added modules. But for those of you that would like a server function on a normal OS they might be useful.
/Mike
Looks great, but I just can't get over the cost.
Hope they stick around and get plenty of users which might bring price down.
rikardo1979
04-04-2016, 05:17
shame they still havent released core for linux :unfair: so no use for me
Currently using LMS serving up digital files to my Logitech Transporter, an established "ecosystem" which is so good I never even thought to look elsewhere.
Sitting back using the Ipad to browse my music seemed as good as it ever needed to be.
But...just caught up with Roon and it looks great. :)
https://roonlabs.com/img/screenshots_genre.png
Its a subscription service (not like Tidal as such, more like an annual fee like MS Office 365) and its not cheap, BUT if it is as good as it seems to be, particularly with the indexing and tagging facilities from the Roon database, then it may just be worth it.
Have to say, at first glance Roon looks like it could be the genuine next step...got me curious so I've downloaded the trial.
Good video here:
yrRfhWcLoqA
Big kicker for me was squeezebox integration as my Transporter isn't going anywhere and it works just fine.
Lots of peeps on various forums happily using it with their Squeezebox kit.
I've tried lots of different approaches to digital music in my time, Squeezebox, PC based Jriver, Rasb. Pi, and my choice was always based not just on best sound quality, but on the User experience too.
Roon looks to give as much control and "pizaaz" as Jriver/Ipeng does but add a whole lot more.
Speaking of sound quality, over on the Devialet forums theres talk that Roon sounded "noticably better" than LMS with the Transporter, running through a Devialet system and stopped a guy over there upgrading his streamer.
Interesting...
Looking forward to seeing how the trial goes.
rikardo1979
14-04-2016, 10:38
I still hoping they going to release what they promised back in 2015 :zzz::hmm: and that is linux and RPi builds...
But seems all went quiet
Roon server Available on Linux?
Then just run it from your remote, tablet or phone?
https://roonlabs.com/downloads.html
rikardo1979
14-04-2016, 11:09
Roon server Available on Linux?
Then just run it from your remote, tablet or phone?
https://roonlabs.com/downloads.html
ou, so seems the finally did it. My bad, I havent checked recently. I may give it a spin then ;)
thx for link
ou, so seems the finally did it. My bad, I havent checked recently. I may give it a spin then ;)
thx for link
Just looking at the release notes. That is one shedload of fixes and new features. They've been hard at work. Very excited about trying the internet radio functionality later this evening...
Radio Paradise 320K sounds wonderful...
Shame theres not as many audio options for the Squeezebox Endpoint, Jriver etc have all the usual Wasapi/Asio options.
Sounds bloody good though and is fantastic using it on the Ipad.
An Ipeng beater....maybe. :)
Not all my music was scanned in, so maybe its not as plug and play as I'd thought.
Will look into it.
badsoden
14-04-2016, 15:05
Radio Paradise 320K sounds wonderful...
Shame theres not as many audio options for the Squeezebox Endpoint, Jriver etc have all the usual Wasapi/Asio options.
Sounds bloody good though and is fantastic using it on the Ipad.
An Ipeng beater....maybe. :)
Not all my music was scanned in, so maybe its not as plug and play as I'd thought.
Will look into it.
Have you removed LMS while you run the roon trial or can you run both on the same server?
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
You can run both, but Roon wont play nice with LMS in the background so best switch it off.
Still have my LMS library intact and can use it.
Good info here:
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/switching-transporter-between-roon-server-lms-or-digital-inputs/9153
and here:
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/lms-to-run-in-parallel-with-roon/6291
Shame Roon cant use the Transporters double displays, miss that already!
and a Rasp Pi build..
https://roonlabs.com/partner-iqaudio.html
badsoden
14-04-2016, 18:10
Going to give this a try but would like to know couple of things first.
I use internet radio a lot particularly the BBC. I see Roon implemented internet radio but what feeds from the BBC is it using? MP3, HLS or DASH?
If I leave picoreplayer on my PI's will it pick them up as SB end points?
rikardo1979
14-04-2016, 19:15
and a Rasp Pi build..
https://roonlabs.com/partner-iqaudio.html
but all this required to have RoonServer running somewhere on the network if I understand it right?
Means I would need one computer dedicated to have this server than I can use RPi as a player and tablet/smartphone as a remote?
In this case pretty useless. They should do something what can be run from one device, in this case RPi.
badsoden
14-04-2016, 19:31
but all this required to have RuneServer running somewhere on the network if I understand it right?
Means I would need one computer dedicated to have this server than I can use RPi as a player and tablet/smartphone as a remote?
In this case pretty useless. They should do something what can be run from one device, in this case RPi.
If you go to one of Gazjam's links you will get to the latest release notes at the top where there is this statement-
Finally, today marks the release of Roon for Linux. We have tested on several recent linux distributions and look forward to hearing all the ways you’re using Roon for Linux to build your own purpose-built Roon Core and output devices.
The Roon Core is the server side things for Roon as far as I can work out. Not that different from running LMS.
rikardo1979
14-04-2016, 19:39
If you go to one of Gazjam's links you will get to the latest release notes at the top where there is this statement-
Finally, today marks the release of Roon for Linux. We have tested on several recent linux distributions and look forward to hearing all the ways you’re using Roon for Linux to build your own purpose-built Roon Core and output devices.
The Roon Core is the server side things for Roon as far as I can work out. Not that different from running LMS.
yeah, thats the thing. You need RoonCore/RoonServer and this is only for x86 Linux/Win or Mac. But not for ARM so can not be run on RPi or small factor devices.
badsoden
14-04-2016, 19:46
Oh I see. I clearly didn't read further! I just assumed the RPi would be supported.
This is true, though dont lot of Pi users stream their music from a Nas or all PC anyway?
Think if you ran it from a Usb hard drive it might not be for you.
Its down to the Roon "Architecture" I think, in that is uses 3 seperate aspects to it.
info here: https://roonlabs.com/howroonworks.html
Have to say been sitting down with it tonight and so far it's awesome. Really.
badsoden
14-04-2016, 19:54
Are you able to answer my question about BBC radio I asked earlier?
rikardo1979
14-04-2016, 19:59
This is true, though dont lot of Pi users stream their music from a Nas or all PC anyway?
Think if you ran it from a Usb hard drive it might not be for you.
Its down to the Roon "Architecture" I think, in that is uses 3 seperate aspects to it.
info here: https://roonlabs.com/howroonworks.html
Have to say been sitting down with it tonight and so far it's awesome. Really.
I get rid of most of the computers and servers from house few years back and replace most of it with RPi.
Reasons being, less power hungry, cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, more environment friendly, open source, and quiet :)
I dont think I will ever go back to computer...at least I dont want to if I dont have to. Most of my digital music coming from cloud service like Tidal HiFi. I have few special albums and song stored on little local file server running on RPi again :) There is little HDD connected to it but that have to go to as I can hear the bloody thing spinning all the time :D so this is going to be replaced by SSD soon
So for me is all unfortunate but Roon is pass ...
Plenty of other options out there still :)
Plenty of options for sure. :)
Are you able to answer my question about BBC radio I asked earlier?
No idea Chris, sorry.
badsoden
14-04-2016, 22:07
No idea Chris, sorry.
I've set it up and am playing! It can see all my squeezebox's including the pi's. I'll play more tomorrow.
I have added some internet radio feeds for the Beeb from tunein which I believe are mp3 but they sound OK.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
New release works just fine and enables phone controller support. New audio transport layer for all platforms and i think servers and controllers are available for all OS now? Lots of folks using Raspberry Pi's as players for this excellent software too!
badsoden
15-04-2016, 13:26
yeah, thats the thing. You need RoonCore/RoonServer and this is only for x86 Linux/Win or Mac. But not for ARM so can not be run on RPi or small factor devices.
Actually after looking a little further there is an arm installer for PI and other boards. Have a look at the link.
https://kb.roonlabs.com/LinuxInstall
rikardo1979
15-04-2016, 13:36
Actually after looking a little further there is an arm installer for PI and other boards. Have a look at the link.
https://kb.roonlabs.com/LinuxInstall
yes you can use RPi as a player but not a Core, that was my point.
Here is reply from Roonlabs to my email
Hi Richard,
Our core can't run on the RPi, but it can be used as an audio endpoint. The Roon core will have to run somewhere, either on a Windows/OSX/Linux*server in your home using*RoonServer, or a*Windows/OSX computer. After the core is running, it*can be controlled remotely from your mobile device or another computer with Roon installed.
I hope this clears things up! Let me know if you have any additional questions.*
Best,
Kevin Pierson
Roon Labs
OP2
badsoden
15-04-2016, 13:49
yes you can use RPi as a player but not a Core, that was my point.
Here is reply from Roonlabs to my email
OP2
Plenty a tiny little x86 based systems, like NUC for one example, that you could stick a headless version of Linux on to run as a core.
rikardo1979
15-04-2016, 14:06
Plenty a tiny little x86 based systems, like NUC for one example, that you could stick a headless version of Linux on to run as a core.
that is not the point ;)
OP2
badsoden
15-04-2016, 18:08
They're only little tiny weeny computers!!
Its all down to the way the software works unfortunatly Richard.
The "Core" computer needs a bit of grunt to run the rest of the software properly (Think i5/Ivybridge cpu) and as cool as the Pi is, its not quite there yet.
Lots of ways to swing a cat though, so pick a flavour you like. :)
Must admit, I like the approach Roon is taking having came from a server/client type computer audio background.
Almost makes the Ipad worth it for this alone.
Its a new product though and Ill be running LMS aside it during my evaluation.
Even now though, 3 days in I'm sold.
rikardo1979
15-04-2016, 19:53
yeah
But with Audiophonics RaspDAC and Tidal HiFi, Im pretty happy at the moment
http://snag.gy/IDRD7.jpg
Yeah, nice bit of kit that.
So no need to change what you have if your happy. :)
I have finally got myself a Pi and tried running JessieLite/RoonBridge on it!
Works great, and sounds good too. Still, i am using the Pi for feeding my S.M.S.L M8 DAC via USB.
Have got a Hifi Digi+ on order for relieveing the USB interface on the Pi of some work.
Anyone got any input on the audible diffs between using USB out and I2S?
cyclopse
16-05-2016, 20:16
I have finally got myself a Pi and tried running JessieLite/RoonBridge on it!
Works great, and sounds good too. Still, i am using the Pi for feeding my S.M.S.L M8 DAC via USB.
Have got a Hifi Digi+ on order for relieveing the USB interface on the Pi of some work.
Anyone got any input on the audible diffs between using USB out and I2S?
Hi Mike,
I have tried both and prefer USB direct out from the Pi USB ports. This I believe is because there the digital jitter levels are lower. If you have a USB equipped DAC this is the way I believe to go.
Hi Mike,
I have tried both and prefer USB direct out from the Pi USB ports. This I believe is because there the digital jitter levels are lower. If you have a USB equipped DAC this is the way I believe to go.
I think that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation and I would be very surprised that even if that were true that it would be the reason for any difference in perceived audio quality differences. Firstly, we're comparing apples with oranges as 1. the transport protocols are very different, 2. The DAC chips will more than likely be different in any devices you're comparing and 3. The analogue output will almost certainly be different.
Any USB connected DAC is still going to be converting the incoming USB data to I2S. This is the common data interface when transporting audio data between local devices. It's robust and has separate timing and data lines, which is exactly what you want. USB connections are far more complex than a straight I2S connection on the Pi as you first have to convert your outgoing audio data to USB, then convert it back again to I2S once it hits the DAC. Far more opportunity for jitter to creep into the system via this method, but there will inevitably be some form of re-clocking going on which may help, or may hinder the results. My other concern with the Pi is that USB is shared over the same bus with Ethernet so if you're using both, there's bound to be some contention, even cross contamination of power here - I recently ran into this issue when testing different power supplies with Ethernet connected and the power supply to the Ethernet router was having a profound affect on the power supply to the Pi, which is when I switched to wi-fi.
I don't think there is a definitive statement when it comes to the Pi as to which is best. I2S connection is definitely the simplest, but then when it comes to the amount of space you've got to connect an I2S DAC, most of these will be limited as they will stick to the footprint of the Pi itself so as to fit neatly into a case. You can potentially do better with a USB DAC as it will be off-board, you're not limited in your board real estate and you can give it a dedicated power supply which can be isolated from the Pi entirely.
For me, I love the simplicity of the I2S interface and you have to go a long way to beat things like the IQAudio and Audiophonics boards. That's not to say that you can't get better by investing in a high end USB DAC though.
I have also read the blurb on the Ethernet/USB sharing some internal bus on the Pi which imply that timing (jitter?) may be more of a concern when using an USB DAC.
Thats why i was a bit surprised that Stephen experience better audio when using an USB DAC.
lovejoy, you needn't compare apples and oranges :)
My small S.M.S.L M8 for example accepts most formats on its coax/optical input as well as on its USB. So, with a Digi+ HAT it will be possible to compare the Pi's USB output with its I2S-SPDIF.
Yes i know, there will still be differences and wont give a definitive answer to the question. It may give hint though.
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