Advice please

[British high fidelity]

Hi guys I have a luxman PD 282 TT complemented with its original S tonearm, I have been using ortofon vms10e mk2 and an ortofon 2m red, but both carts sound really bright, I have tried running the turntable through a rotel RQ970BX and also through an audiowind A310 phonostage and although the rotel is slightly better at taming the brightness, it is still there, do I need to change carts or is there something in the setup that I'm over looking, setup as follows

TT luxman PD282
Audiowind phono
Rotel rq970bx phono
Ortofon 2m red
Ortofon vms10e mk2
Prometheus TVC Se passive pre
Krell KSA50S
Kimber 12tc speaker cables
Acoustic energy AE1 classics
Furutech power cords

Advice will be more than appreciated

Cheers

Dino

[Firebottle]

You could try adding more capacitance loading on the input.
I see the audiowind only gives 170pF with all the switches on. Add 100pF then another 100pf to see how the sound changes.

If you get a bag of 100pF caps you can dial in quite a range of values with the on board switches as well.

:cool:

[Oldpinkman]

You could try adding more capacitance loading on the input.
I see the audiowind only gives 170pF with all the switches on. Add 100pF then another 100pf to see how the sound changes.

If you get a bag of 100pF caps you can dial in quite a range of values with the on board switches as well.

:cool:

Yup. Don't know the red, but the VMS will want about 400pf. you used to be able to get little caps that sat behind the cartridge pins - but I can't remember when I last saw them

[British high fidelity]

Ok sounds like a plan, any idea on what capacitance the tonearm and rca cable may be contributing to the overall values

[Firebottle]

I shouldn't worry about the actual value, go by ear :)

[Reffc]

Ok sounds like a plan, any idea on what capacitance the tonearm and rca cable may be contributing to the overall values

RCA coax is typically between 65 and 90pF/m depending on geometry. Tonearm cable wont add much to capacitance. If you allowed 25pF for the tonearm cable that would likely be conservative. The Ortofon Red is a bit lifted in the upper regions and not the smoothest of HF performers from my own experience of it, so between 350pF and 600pF would seem the right ballpark for current Ortofons. Try variations between these figures and see. I know that the 2M Black likes to see relatively high capacitance loading to sound balanced, as does the Bronze.

[topoxforddoc]

Back in the late 70s, Ortofon used to sell a small clip on rectangular capacitor called the CAP210 (as it had an extra 210 pF). It slotted in between the 4 cartridge pins on the back. This was designed for use with the VMS cartridges and helped to tame a slightly bright top end.

[British high fidelity]

Thanks guys really appreciate your help and your amazing knowledge

[Clive197]

Yup. Don't know the red, but the VMS will want about 400pf. you used to be able to get little caps that sat behind the cartridge pins - but I can't remember when I last saw them

Bloody hell I Remember them, had 1 on a VMS20 over 45 years ago. Can you still get them?

[topoxforddoc]

Bloody hell I Remember them, had 1 on a VMS20 over 45 years ago. Can you still get them?

You can sometimes find a CAP 210 on Eb*y for a few pounds.

[Floyddroid]

Why not just change the cartridge to one that suits the rest of your kit? Just saying?

[British high fidelity]

Was looking at that idea, I also have a Thorens td125 mk2 with SME series iii arm so suggestions on any cartridge that would work on both if possible would be advantage but me thinks, might be luckier finding rocking horse poo

[Reffc]

Was looking at that idea, I also have a Thorens td125 mk2 with SME series iii arm so suggestions on any cartridge that would work on both if possible would be advantage but me thinks, might be luckier finding rocking horse poo

Any good medium to high compliance cartridge will work with a series iii.

Of the modern crop, the Nagaoka MP300 would work really well with both, with a tracking force at the lighter end, ie 1.3g. Any additional mass required is best added to the headshell.

The Series 3 is a much under-rated arm and one of the benchmark designs from SME. Ahead of its time, it allowed for probably the first time, most suitable cartridges to be heard without the usual arm colourations and as a result sounds less "bright" than the Series 2 arms.

I'd have one in a flash if I could find a good one as a second arm for the 401.

[AlfaGTV]

Are you sure a passive pre is the optimal interface between a RIAA and an old brute like the KSA50?
I'd look there firstly! :)
Perhaps you also have a CD Player that delivers the goods?
/Mike

[Arkless Electronics]

There's no reason a passive shouldn't work well with the Krell. A non TVC one is better.
Personally I'd be looking at much better cartridge and speakers.

[Yomanze]

It'll work alright, but all things being equal I would trade off a bit of "transparency" of a passive for better dynamics and slam.

Agree with regard to better speakers though these dictate the overall sound along with the room.

[walpurgis]

There's no reason a passive shouldn't work well with the Krell. A non TVC one is better.
Personally I'd be looking at much better cartridge and speakers.

Why?

[Arkless Electronics]

'Cos it has no transformer obviously! Transformers are always a bad idea in audio without exception.

I completely disagree that passives lack slam and dynamics! Try turning it up....

[walpurgis]

My TVC unit sounds vastly better than any regular passive I've used. Pot or stepped attenuator type.

[struth]

Mine did too although not used too many. May be times when its not the case of course but not many i wouldnt have thought.

[Ali Tait]

My Slagle AVC seemed to be well received at the last NEBO.

[Arkless Electronics]

The only way a TVC can sound "better" is because it's adding colourations which you find pleasant. I prefer neutrality.
Microphone pre amps often use a form of SUT at the input precisely because they colour the sound! Recording engineers/producers will often choose one to give a certain sonic signature to the sound...
Audio transformers have limitations in frequency response and usually add distortion, to the bass in particular. It strikes me as odd that people who believe in foo mains cables etc and the sanctity of a mere yard of wire will then use something wound from a hundred yards of VERY fine wire!

[Arkless Electronics]

My Slagle AVC seemed to be well received at the last NEBO.

A touch bright and "chrome plated" I thought... though we are talking Nth degree here! I'm not for one minute saying all transformers sound awful, just that they do add their own sonic signature, even if slight in the case of the very best transformers, whereas I prefer neutrality and transparency.
You won't get better transparency, neutrality and just rightness than having only two good quality resistors in the signal path, as in a switched attenuator at any given volume setting.

[southall-1998]

I paid £39 for this- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131672112082?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

For the money I can't really argue! But yeah sure, there are much better pre's out there!!

S.

[walpurgis]

The only way a TVC can sound "better" is because it's adding colourations which you find pleasant.

No. I prefer the TVC for it's greater transparency over basic passives. I had doubts myself before trying one, but the benefits are audible.

[Arkless Electronics]

No. I prefer the TVC for it's greater transparency over basic passives. I had doubts myself before trying one, but the benefits are audible.

A small rise in the top end can "add" plenty of "transparency" ;)
To all intents and purposes a passive attenuator is perfect. It will add no distortion, noise, phase shift or frequency response errors anywhere remotely near the audio band. If something sounds better than "perfect" then I'm suspicious of euthonic additions of some sort..

[walpurgis]

That's not what I'm hearing Jez. By transparency, I mean clearly more open across the whole frequency band, not a rising top end (which is a characteristic I don't like). It's not a small difference either.

[British high fidelity]

Thanks guys for the input, to answer a few questions, I have a rega Apollo 35th anniversary edition cd player also running through the Prometheus and the sound is amazing, I also have the room acoustics done with the help of acoustic foam and diffusers etc,

With regards to the passive pre, I have over the years had many Pre amps and in all honesty the prometheus is truly phenomenal, I love the blackness of pre, and for me I want to hear exactly what the artist recorded, I belive and may be wrong but If the Pre is adding colour to the sound then is it not defeating our goal as audiophiles, are we not trying to reproduce the exact recording?

I have already started to modify the phonostage to improve the capacitance range as recommended by Alan (firebottle), and after these mods are done hopefully the brightness may ease off, if I don't have luck with the mod then cartridge upgrades will be made, again thanks for all your input gentleman

[struth]

Used to run a promethius myself. damned good they are too.:)

[British high fidelity]

Hi Grant, yes in very happy with it, wonderful sound