View Full Version : Cartidge choice ZYX or AT
Hi everyone
I am quite confused about cartidge choice for my sme10/309 combo and would really like to hear your comments about these two carts.
AT OC9 2 - This cart mostly has good reviews. I believe in general smooth sounding cart with nice mids but not sure about detail and soundstage. It sounds like to me as a lower grade cart for SMEs. Price wise its 1/3 of the zyx.
ZYZ R100 02 - ı got a good deal for this cart and wondering if it significantly better than AT or not.
Never heard both of these so comments from any member who had listened any of these really appreciated.
My taste is, as much detail as possible but without harsh treble. I like detailed bass which doesnt cloud other frequencies.
Many thanks
walpurgis
15-12-2015, 21:31
My taste is, as much detail as possible but without harsh treble. I like detailed bass which doesnt cloud other frequencies.
That is a reasonable description of the ZYX R100 02 sound. I own one (the 'H' version). It is extremely transparent and lucid too.
I've not used the Audio Technica, but I'd be very surprised if it came anywhere near the ZYX for ability.
I don't think the OC9 is in the same class as the R100. A closer match would be the 33 PTG/II with boron cantilever and micro line stylus, it needs careful setup though as I've just discovered.
topoxforddoc
15-12-2015, 22:50
Definitely the ZYX
That is a reasonable description of the ZYX R100 02 sound. I own one (the 'H' version). It is extremely transparent and lucid too.
I've not used the Audio Technica, but I'd be very surprised if it came anywhere near the ZYX for ability.
Thank you Walpurgis
Is tracking good as well? I hate the sibilant voice and distortions.
Floyddroid
16-12-2015, 11:58
OC9! It's a no brainer.
Hi everyone
I am quite confused about cartidge choice for my sme10/309 combo and would really like to hear your comments about these two carts.
AT OC9 2 - This cart mostly has good reviews. I believe in general smooth sounding cart with nice mids but not sure about detail and soundstage. It sounds like to me as a lower grade cart for SMEs. Price wise its 1/3 of the zyx.
ZYZ R100 02 - ı got a good deal for this cart and wondering if it significantly better than AT or not.
Never heard both of these so comments from any member who had listened any of these really appreciated.
My taste is, as much detail as possible but without harsh treble. I like detailed bass which doesnt cloud other frequencies.
Many thanks
Definitely the ZYX
+1 ZYX is the one.
walpurgis
16-12-2015, 12:32
Thank you Walpurgis
Is tracking good as well? I hate the sibilant voice and distortions.
Tracking has been very good with each of my ZYXs.
Tracking has been very good with each of my ZYXs.
Thats good to know.
Which other zyx carts do you have or had?
Do you think r100 02 is a good cart in their range to start with? How would you describe the bigger brohters?
walpurgis
16-12-2015, 15:04
Thats good to know.
Which other zyx carts do you have or had?
Do you think r100 02 is a good cart in their range to start with? How would you describe the bigger brohters?
I have R50 Bloom H, R100, R100 O2 H, R100 Yatra. The R50 Bloom H is a wonderful MC at the price. In some ways as nice as the others, which are each very fine too.
I use a Zyx R50 Bloom (0.24mV) on my 309 and it's a fine match and one of the best sounding MC carts I've owned. Betters any AT I've heard. It is no contest V's the AT0C9, none at all. The R50 betters it by miles never mind the R100. However (isn't there always one?) you will need a little headshell mass to get the tracking spot on. The R50 and R100 are ridiculously low mass and need around 2g headshell mass when used with the 309 Magnesium arm. Not an issue. I made mine up from some scrap aluminium (not very dense but for 2g it doesn't need to be large). I used a little double sided tape to fit the DIY weight to the headshell. Improves tracking.
I use a Zyx R50 Bloom (0.24mV) on my 309 and it's a fine match and one of the best sounding MC carts I've owned. Betters any AT I've heard. It is no contest V's the AT0C9, none at all. The R50 betters it by miles never mind the R100. However (isn't there always one?) you will need a little headshell mass to get the tracking spot on. The R50 and R100 are ridiculously low mass and need around 2g headshell mass when used with the 309 Magnesium arm. Not an issue. I made mine up from some scrap aluminium (not very dense but for 2g it doesn't need to be large). I used a little double sided tape to fit the DIY weight to the headshell. Improves tracking.
Thank you Reffc
Your post really helped me. Its great to know someone with similar set up.
Regarding with the headshell mass ı believe soundsmith screws can be used to increase the weight as well.
Just want to know what you mean by increasing the tracking, is it the problem i described as sibiliant voices and distortion?
I asked this cart to SME directly and they said its a great match technicaly. So your experienced worried me a little.
Cheers.
walpurgis
16-12-2015, 17:47
Paul (Reffc) didn't mention it. But he is the current ZYX importer to the UK I believe. So he should know what he is talking about. :)
Thank you Reffc
Your post really helped me. Its great to know someone with similar set up.
Regarding with the headshell mass ı believe soundsmith screws can be used to increase the weight as well.
Just want to know what you mean by increasing the tracking, is it the problem i described as sibiliant voices and distortion?
I asked this cart to SME directly and they said its a great match technicaly. So your experienced worried me a little.
Cheers.
It isn't an issue really unless torturing the cart with really difficult recording levels. There's a tendency these days, and not just with Zyx carts, for most tonearms to be a little too low mass for their own good. Adding a little headshell mass just prevents the lowish compliance from causing slight mistracking with some high energy tracks. I used the HFN test LP and with 2g headshell mass, the R50 tracks 3 of the 4 torture tracks clean as a whistle. Few carts I've tried have ever made it past the 4th track which is unsurprising since it contains a 300 Hz test tone at +18dB!. SME are technically correct in that on paper, it is a good match. It works. Testing soon shows that it benefits hugely from 2 or 3g mass added though so don't underestimate the importance of doing this as it turns a great sounding cart into an exceptional sounding cart. Zyx do sell headshell weights for this purpose but I hesitate to ever recommend then as the cost is prohibitive and there's far cheaper alternatives. Technics make one for example which is reasonably cheap at a few pounds, but I consider that expensive for a 2g square of metal!
Whilst I am one of a handful of Zyx retailers, I am not actually the Importer...that privilege goes to Graham Tricker of GT audio.
walpurgis
16-12-2015, 18:02
Whilst I am one of a handful of Zyx retailers, I am not actually the Importer...that is Graham Tricker from GT audio.
Ah. I wasn't quite sure. :)
I love AT MCs. The OC9 and 33 both track extremely well, in fact better than any other carts I've used. Sound-wise they are quite explicit and detailed, with the 33 being a little more refined than the 9. Excellent soundstage and depth from both. Can't compare it with the Zyx as never used one, but I think for the money (someone on the 'Wam was selling new 33PTGs or EVs for less than £300 recently) they're hard to beat.
It may be possible it depends a bit on what you listen to, also.
The question is not easy to answer, as Zyx and AT fans will both love the particular strong sides of their carts,
and it is also possible that both fractions are right in this.
I own a Zyx Yatra Fuji & that's the best cart I've owned for now.
The best presentation of Kenny Burrell's 'Midnight Blue' I have had in a presentation of the DPS3 deck I now have, with a Rega RB250 and an AT 33 cart.
The insight into the music , THIS music was mindblowing & I never heard it that good again, yet.
To complicate matters a bit further, this was on Naims biggest pre/ end combi incl. supercaps etc.
So far above my hifi, but the LP12 with Ekos and Akiva did a total fail when changing decks remaining on the Kenny Burrell record.
I can tell so far, that the Kenny Burrell record ( I bought it straight after) is doing better in my living room after I swapped from LP12 to DPS,
so I can say I understand the music, but the ocean-deep insight I had with the big Naim-DPS3-AT 33 (it was black, not red, not sure that makes it an EV or PTG)
was never heard again since then.
I think it wasn't due the bigger amps only, though that might have helped. The LP12 had the same amps and failed.
So meanwhile I tend to think it was the cart..for a long time I accused the suspension of the LP12 for it, which may be a part of it,
but due the DPS I now have did get me quite further in insight but not as far as in the presentation, I think it probably was the AT cart for a big part, too.
Compared to an Akiva, mind that. I was stunned.
Now, depending on what you listen to, that might not apply to you a lot.
It does make a difference how, in which way people listen to music.
The Zyx does nothing wrong, it is an absolutely phantastic cart regarding
placement of sounds, soundstage, also up to behind the wall that is behind your speakers, contour and shape of cymbals, strings, snares..tonal exquisite in total.
It makes things sound phantastic simply, but not by painting over the harmony, but by a delicate precision..making highest tones not sounding sharp and annoying, but a delicate piece of fine musical info offered.
In short, it's a pleasure to listen to.
Now. I don't own an AT, but I have seen so many do & I think they are not all wrong about what they are doing.
I think they listen to musical context more by tendency than the last bit of resolution & what I would call 'hifi' terms.
The more you listen to 'normal' music...rock, pop, the more the Zyx will give you all that with ease and great pleasure.
The more you listen to complex stuff that does not reveal it's message entirely at first listen,
the more I think the AT will offer that extra door to gain some deeper access into the musical message.
That said, the Zyx is doing nothing wrong, absolutely.
More AT has landed a terrific strike in one particular field there.
I'm tempted to try an AT 33 on my deck at some point to see if I am on the right track with my theory.
Good luck with your choice, you did pick 2 excellent competitors in their own right already, so things could be much worse ! :)
Hello again
Man thanks for the comments and advises.
I think ı am going for a cheaper zyx alternative - R50Bloom
I guess it will be a nice start with zyx.
I hope i will not be disappointed
belloire
23-12-2015, 16:23
if you haven't gone for it yet, consider the OC9 III Ltd. it has the same cantilever / stylus as the more expensive ART range. lovely thing. i have one and whilst it isn't as good as my ART1, or a friends ART9, it's not that far off.
walpurgis
23-12-2015, 16:46
If you are going for a high quality MC, you must use an equally good SUT or have a very fine dedicated MC input on the phono stage. You just won't get the results otherwise. I personally favour a decent SUT into a good MM phono stage.
Bluebeat13
23-12-2015, 16:53
Doruk, be careful if you're planning to use a low mass arm with the R50 Bloom. I tried one on my Roksan Nima and without pretty extreme VTF the tracking was not great. Sold it, bought an ATOC9 III and that tracked like an absolute dream. Sounded pretty good too.
Tom
If you ran the Zyx w/o the additional weight Zyx is offering (SB Silver ~ 4,3 gr) I don't doubt it didn't work well.
The Zyx are too low mass with all arms I have come across yet w/o additional mass added,
but are the greatest I have come across once the additional mass was on.
What is the weight of the AT OC9 III alone ?
walpurgis
23-12-2015, 19:50
Zyx, like many MCs, do work best with a fair bit of mass at the headshell as a rule. Fluid damped arms are an exception though. I use a low mass original Mission 774 arm with fluid damping and my ZYXs sound wonderful in it.
Doruk, be careful if you're planning to use a low mass arm with the R50 Bloom. I tried one on my Roksan Nima and without pretty extreme VTF the tracking was not great. Sold it, bought an ATOC9 III and that tracked like an absolute dream. Sounded pretty good too.
Tom
Thank you Tom
Tracking is maybe the most important point for me so your experience worried me.
Have you tried to use headshell weight with your zyx?
If you are going for a high quality MC, you must use an equally good SUT or have a very fine dedicated MC input on the phono stage. You just won't get the results otherwise. I personally favour a decent SUT into a good MM phono stage.
My phono stage is ifi iphono.
It used to work quite well with my denon 103R which is 0,24mv
It should be ok for zyx or AT i believe.
What do you think?
These are the numbers
Sme 309 effective mass 9,5g
Cartidge balance range 6-17g
AT-OC9/III is 8g with 18 dyn complience
AT-EV 33 is 6,9g with 10 dyn comp
AT-33Pgt/2 is 6,9g with 10 dyn comp
ZYX R50 is 5g with 15 dyn comp
Carefull, AT quote their compliance at 100hz, most do it at 10hz....so multiply the AT figure by 1.7 to get the figure (approx.) for 10hz
Carefull, AT quote their compliance at 100hz, most do it at 10hz....so multiply the AT figure by 1.7 to get the figure (approx.) for 10hz
Yep, this is same for all Japan producers i believe
Hi again
Got my R50 last week. Set it up on my turntable with an arm effectivr mass of 11g. (Not the SME)
As everybody advised ı had tracking issues out of the box.
Than ı tried to increase the headshell weight with Soundsmith screws around 7 g.
Tracking totally changed and become one of the best i have tried.
I still have around 20 hours on it so probably will have some improvements as well after another 20h.
Thanks for everyone who contrinuted.
eddieedwards
21-01-2016, 20:01
I got a Zyx R100 low last weekend and it tracks just fine with my Audio Note arm, effective mass 11.5g, plus fasteners. Resonant frequency calculates to a spot on 9.9hz too.
Overall, it's proving to be enjoyably detailed, pacey and busy yet, somehow, it achieves all of these attributes without being bright or fatiguing.
walpurgis
21-01-2016, 20:13
Seems ZYX MCs are catching on here. People are getting 'the word'. I love mine! :)
I totally agree that its not bright, fatiguing... Especially after denon 103R ı found it much more listenable for long hours without harsh trebles.
Just it sounds some kind 'thin' to my ears. Lets see if it will improve.
Have you noiced big change eddieedeards after some hours on your r100??
walpurgis
21-01-2016, 21:42
I bought my R100 H2 new and it took about 20 hours to start feeling 'settled'. The general opinion seems to be that ZYXs keep improving up to about 40 hours use. There is definitely a break in period. As there is with many cartridges.
I also have the regular R100, but that was second hand, so did not need a break in spell.
Floyddroid
22-01-2016, 06:47
The OC9 seems to becoming a victim of a certain amount of snobbery imho In much the same way as NAD. I have never heard a Zyx but by all accounts they are excellent. This is don't dispute. But the humble OC9 is a great mc for the bucks and gives a lot of more expensive devices a run for their money.
eddieedwards
22-01-2016, 07:40
I totally agree that its not bright, fatiguing... Especially after denon 103R ı found it much more listenable for long hours without harsh trebles.
Just it sounds some kind 'thin' to my ears. Lets see if it will improve.
Have you noiced big change eddieedeards after some hours on your r100??
A slightly "thin" sound is exactly the word I used to describe it to somebody else, however, I'm preferring a slightly thinner (less warm), detailed, pacey sound, rather than an overly full sound that is warmer and slower. I suppose, to some extent, some elements of sound go hand in hand and not all can be achieved at once, by one device.
My Zyx only has 30 odd hours on it and I'm told it will improve and fill out in time - I've also been told that adjusting VTF can have an effect, though I haven't tried that yet. I'm running it totally level to record surface. Overall, I think it's excellent and I'm very happy with it.
walpurgis
22-01-2016, 10:23
What arm are you using Eddie? The ZYXs like a bit of mass at the headshell. You could experiment with a lump of BluTak or small weight on top of the headshell. Adjusting downforce of course.
eddieedwards
22-01-2016, 12:09
What arm are you using Eddie? The ZYXs like a bit of mass at the headshell. You could experiment with a lump of BluTak or small weight on top of the headshell. Adjusting downforce of course.
It's an Audio Note (current model) Geoff. I've currently got it level and at 2g VTF. Cheers.
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