View Full Version : Dance/Huge Gig P.A. Systems Versus Domestic Hi-Fi
In many ways the former renders the later a complete joke.
But then the converse is also true.
Or is it?
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2015, 18:25
I have often thought that the commonly used in pub/club gigs mackie/EV/RCF active speakers, usually 12 or 15" woofer with compression driver horn tweeter and about 500WPC on the woofers and 100 on the top end, would surprise many a hi fi fan....
I have often thought that the commonly used in pub/club gigs mackie/EV/RCF active speakers, usually 12 or 15" woofer with compression driver horn tweeter and about 500WPC on the woofers and 100 on the top end, would surprise many a hi fi fan....
Agreed. I spent from the age of 15 to my mid-40s attending Friday night events containing such or similar systems - a fair percentage of the reason being the sonic merits they exhibited over anything you could realistically hear at home.
anthonyTD
14-12-2015, 18:54
I know where your coming from.
When i was in my late teens, i started going to a place near me called the beer Keller,[it was a basement below the high street, solid walls, floors etc] there was a resident DJ there who had a real good ear, and some realy nice equipment, course it was all vinyl, never forgot how good that system sounded, i would always try and get there early before the crowds came in, so that i could have a real good listen to it, 12" singles sounded Fab.
A...
Bet there were a couple of Techies at the helm! :gig:
Marco.
Isn't it all about sound pressure levels and how they drive the room, hall etc. I used to attend many clubs in my yoof, the favourite being the Monday Soul Night at London's Lyceum Ballroom. A vast place, but the rig hanging from the ceiling was mega. Mind you there was one night when I was convinced that the Hi-Hat was balanced right on the top of my head:eek:.......and I didn't drink in those days either. Too much loud music didn't do a lot for my ears though.
I have often thought that the commonly used in pub/club gigs mackie/EV/RCF active speakers, usually 12 or 15" woofer with compression driver horn tweeter and about 500WPC on the woofers and 100 on the top end, would surprise many a hi fi fan....
About a year ago my band bought a pair of RCF 312A mkiii and I spent an afternoon seeing how good they sounded.
Outside my workshop on stands in free air (not too loud) fed by flac files from my phone....really very good, particularly on simple vocal stuff. Complex didn't do so good, but still could teach a few hi fi systems a thing or two about dynamics. Imaging was L R only, no front to back.
Fed by my (then) Denon 2900 playing hi res and with the covers removed from the bass drivers, everything a little better, including imaging, but much more defined and open bass. Very loud, if wanted, and surprisingly clear.
Left me wondering how susceptible they would be to tweaking - soldering all internal connections, bypassing pots etc. Have a feeling that a time delayed HF might sort out the imaging and you'd have something really special for not much money at all....
I had some KLH 317s at Uni but the tweeters kept blowing.
Replaced them with disco horn tweeters and all was good.
Still sounded good and they could handle all the power of my NAD 3020.
Guess how I spent my first grant cheque?
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2015, 20:22
About a year ago my band bought a pair of RCF 312A mkiii and I spent an afternoon seeing how good they sounded.
Outside my workshop on stands in free air (not too loud) fed by flac files from my phone....really very good, particularly on simple vocal stuff. Complex didn't do so good, but still could teach a few hi fi systems a thing or two about dynamics. Imaging was L R only, no front to back.
Fed by my (then) Denon 2900 playing hi res and with the covers removed from the bass drivers, everything a little better, including imaging, but much more defined and open bass. Very loud, if wanted, and surprisingly clear.
Left me wondering how susceptible they would be to tweaking - soldering all internal connections, bypassing pots etc. Have a feeling that a time delayed HF might sort out the imaging and you'd have something really special for not much money at all....
I've wondered myself.... I would be thinking more along the lines of removing all the pro gubins that's not needed (balanced inputs etc) and replacing the naff op amps in what's left, then some upgrading of the power amps. I doubt time alignment would help as they are naturally time aligned any way by the compression driver diaphragm being in the same plane as that of the woofer coil. They are also designed for wide and controlled dispersion.
A pair of active JBL K2's including amps and crossovers for <2K anyone? :lol:
We bought a pair of Behringer B112W speakers for an outdoor event.
I had them in the living room for a while and I must say, they sounded pretty damn good for around 600 EU the pair. With enough power to blow the windows out :eyebrows:. The have a very handy Bluetooth feature which permits to link them up to a smartphone in stereo mode.
http://origin.behringer.com/EN/products/B112W.aspx
http://origin.behringer.com/assets/B112W_P0AWT_Rear_XL.pnghttp://origin.behringer.com/assets/B112W_P0AWT_Front_XL.png
I still think that the most impressive PA I've heard was that used for the Leftfield Aternative Light Source 2015 Tour. I saw them at the Forum in Kentish Town, and the rig there had astonishing output and bass power. Low bass notes actually caused blurring of the vision as your eyeballs rattled in your head. It was also very clean, and generally clean, detailed and quite 'Hi-Fi' considering the bone crushing levels and bass output that could be generated.
Don't know if this is the same system they were touring in for their Alternative Light Source 2015 tour, but in the past (Brixton 2012) they have used a Turbosound Flashline PA, with 10 x Flashline Subs per side, each with 2 x 18" Subs, that's 20 x 18" subs per side and a total of 40 x 18" Subs. As an idea, the Turbosound TSW218 is a horn-loaded Sub cabinet, produce 104Db/1W at one metre. A stack of eight TSW218s gets to 110Db/1W @ 1M (!!). Frequency response is quoted as flat to 36Hz, and power handling per cabinet is 1600W continuous, or 6400W peak. Continuous output per cab is 135Db peak or 145Db Peak (!!)
Some pics of their installations in various venues here (https://www.facebook.com/745762808853445/photos/a.748188671944192.1073741829.745762808853445/748190408610685/?type=3&theater)
That is some serious bass in your face (and everywhere else) right there :)
Cheers,
Alex
I've wondered myself.... I would be thinking more along the lines of removing all the pro gubins that's not needed (balanced inputs etc) and replacing the naff op amps in what's left, then some upgrading of the power amps. I doubt time alignment would help as they are naturally time aligned any way by the compression driver diaphragm being in the same plane as that of the woofer coil. They are also designed for wide and controlled dispersion.
A pair of active JBL K2's including amps and crossovers for <2K anyone? :lol:
I know this is conventional wisdom. But logically its the bass cone which is the sound source, not its voice coil, and the cone is appreciably forward of the HF diaphragm on the RCFs. My Urei 811's, of which much was made of their time alignment in their time, are apparently giving seven cm worth of delay to the bass driver, which is the distance between the LF cone apex and HF diaphragm. They image rather well, and have very low listener fatigue, and also are reputed to reproduce a square wave reasonably well, in contrast to most multi driver loudspeakers.
The RCF's didn't, to me sound as if they were time aligned, although you're quite right, the lack of depth and focus could well be attributable to the electronics upstream.
With regard to huge PAs, at the year before lasts Green man festival, bass on the main stage PA was overloading so badly I felt the need to point it out to the sound men in the mixing booth. To their bewilderment...they just couldn't hear it. Hmmmm......
I know this is conventional wisdom. But logically its the bass cone which is the sound source, not its voice coil, and the cone is appreciably forward of the HF diaphragm on the RCFs. My Urei 811's, of which much was made of their time alignment in their time, are apparently giving seven cm worth of delay to the bass driver, which is the distance between the LF cone apex and HF diaphragm. They image rather well, and have very low listener fatigue, and also are reputed to reproduce a square wave reasonably well, in contrast to most multi driver loudspeakers.
The RCF's didn't, to me sound as if they were time aligned, although you're quite right, the lack of depth and focus could well be attributable to the electronics upstream.
With regard to huge PAs, at the year before lasts Green man festival, bass on the main stage PA was overloading so badly I felt the need to point it out to the sound men in the mixing booth. To their bewilderment...they just couldn't hear it. Hmmmm......
Time alignment is a little misunderstood and one needs to consider it in terms of lobing field of the system which is dependant upon wavelengths of a particular frequency arriving at the listening position at the same time for the crossover frequencies. In un-aligned systems, at crossover frequency, there is usually a tilt in the lobing field, and with the convention of tweeter above woofer with no physical or phase corrected time alignment, there will be two lobing fields (the pressure envelope of equal SPL radiated on axis from each drive unit) with the summed field pointing down below the woofer's horizontal lobing field and on-axis signals from each drive unit arriving to the listener out of phase. This causes cancellation amongst other effects, but most speakers, especially at the budget end, have no correction, and that includes many PA type speakers.
The actual point at which the sound source should be measured is at the head of the voicecoil/base of the cone which for most woofers is about where the dust-cap fits onto the cone and for most tweeters will be the base of the dome. However, it does NOT work this way for horn compression drive units where phase shifts take place within the horn throat due to the transfer of the signal from diaphragm to horn passing through air before coupling with the horn. Speed of sound in air is slower than speed of sound transferred into a cone. The only way of accurately achieving time alignment is by measurement at the design stage to work out physical placement or electrical ( active/passive) phase compensation or a combination of both.
Physical time alignment on its own does not achieve the required field lobing compensation as there are phase shifts within the crossover itself so proper time alignment has to include understanding the electrical phase shift. ie in order for it to work passively, L-R type summations in the crossover work best since they sum to plus/minus 180 degrees of phase and result in equal summation at crossover unlike all other filter types.
To complicate matters more, L-R cannot be accurately calculated for any driver combination (forget on line calculators...they don't work in the real world unless they can calculate for each specific drive units electro-acoustic response) but has to be measured.
For such a simple concept, it's actually quite difficult to get right! Active correction with measurement is the easiest way to achieve it these days but if designing passive systems, it becomes an iterative process of design/simulation/measurement/correction whether or not physical time alignment is used.
Firebottle
15-12-2015, 07:51
:clap: Great post Paul.
:)
Thanks Alan. I'm sure that someone more eloquent with words than myself can explain it in simpler terms though!
:clap: Great post Paul.
:)
+1 great explanation.
I did however mean the cones apex, there's no dustcap on the Ureis which use (selected) Altec 804G drivers. The RCFs have a fairly shallow cone with a large dustcap, physically well forward of the gauze protecting the HF diaphragm. And being used to the Ureis sound, didn't sound in alignment to me. Presumably alignment would be rather easier in an active system though?
+1 great explanation.
I did however mean the cones apex, there's no dustcap on the Ureis which use (selected) Altec 804G drivers. The RCFs have a fairly shallow cone with a large dustcap, physically well forward of the gauze protecting the HF diaphragm. And being used to the Ureis sound, didn't sound in alignment to me. Presumably alignment would be rather easier in an active system though?
Hi Nial
Time alignment is easier to adjust for in an active system with variable phase adjustment but achieving it still relies on identifying phase relationships at crossover, so measurement is still a requirement. Many active systems using horns use RTA (Real Time Analyser) software for this.
I know where your coming from.
When i was in my late teens, i started going to a place near me called the beer Keller,[it was a basement below the high street, solid walls, floors etc] there was a resident DJ there who had a real good ear, and some realy nice equipment, course it was all vinyl, never forgot how good that system sounded, i would always try and get there early before the crowds came in, so that i could have a real good listen to it, 12" singles sounded Fab.
A...
You mean the Bierkeller in All Saints Street close to the Police station? Been there many a time.
I always thought the Lakota's system in the 90/00s (Upper York Street) was pretty phenomenal at pumping out bass at high volume. Thing is the rest of the frequency range was pretty good too. Electronic dance music as a genre is the biz at shaking rooms and hitting your chest - literally making it vibrate. Not many domestic systems can do the later.
Half the reason I use the system I do is to create that sort of effect i.e. get the room moving and shift sizeable volumes of air at high volume. Since I no longer live in Bristol going to clubs just isn't practical anymore.
Then there was Ajax - the blues club with some of the best reggae sounds going. More chest thumping bass using horn loaded speakers and valve amps. Quite a bit of respect for that. Best rendition of Buju Banton's Boom Bye Bye your likely to hear.
For scale, bass output and volume 99% of domestic systems can't even vaguely get close.
Audio Advent
15-12-2015, 12:39
With regard to huge PAs, at the year before lasts Green man festival, bass on the main stage PA was overloading so badly I felt the need to point it out to the sound men in the mixing booth. To their bewilderment...they just couldn't hear it. Hmmmm......
Even if they could hear it, they would be taking advice from a member of public... so they "couldn't hear it".
Audio Advent
15-12-2015, 12:52
Often I think you get quite a dirty and rough sound dominated by dynamics and loosing out on things like reverb tails, I don't think they do quiet listening too well. And some Mackie 450s and Berhingers as per the photo are quite his
That said, what PA speakers I have heard have been quite good. Some Tannoy PA speakers were good with electronica and gave something I couldn't get at home (perhaps because of volume) but the best I've heard are from Flare Audio which are unusual speakers i themselves - polished aluminium facias and really thin by comarison to normal, especially their 18" drivers in a box about 12" deep yet still able to push out the deep bass without any special DSP. They use some kind of special, vortex air venting which equalises the pressure on both sides of the cone yet at the same time keeping the control of having a box via the air movement "impedance" of that venting .. or something.
But surely the best of both worlds would be some active studio monitors? Many are also designed to deliver dynamics but only to the room (not vast spaces) or nearfield and should be designed to portray all the fine details too. There was some buzz over on another forum for Event Opals a while ago I remember.
Fast dynamics are something which hifi doesn't do often enough at normal listening volumes in my opinion, might be more down to amps and things though.
Best PA I ever heard was back in '89 when I was stuck on the college campus over Xmas. I went out to the cigarette machine (remember them?) in the lobby of one of the main buildings late one night, and whilst I was there feeding coins into it I could hear the most fantastic sound coming from a nearby function room.
Turned out to be some corporate Xmas do but the sound was so good I sneaked in for a listen. The speakers were quite compact and stood on poles but the quality was amazing. They played that track 'Black Velvet' by Alannah Myles and it was perfect. I would have stayed longer but, pissed as the revellers were, a few of them noticed a skanky student with waist-length hair hanging about and were giving me funny looks so I beat a retreat.
I later bought the Alannah Myles album but turns out it is shite apart from that one song.
anthonyTD
15-12-2015, 13:08
I have some Dynaudio BM15A's on the bench for repair at the moment, just listening to one being fed directly from SACD player, even at low volumes, sound is very impresive!
Often I think you get quite a dirty and rough sound dominated by dynamics and loosing out on things like reverb tails, I don't think they do quiet listening too well. And some Mackie 450s and Berhingers as per the photo are quite his
That said, what PA speakers I have heard have been quite good. Some Tannoy PA speakers were good with electronica and gave something I couldn't get at home (perhaps because of volume) but the best I've heard are from Flare Audio which are unusual speakers i themselves - polished aluminium facias and really thin by comarison to normal, especially their 18" drivers in a box about 12" deep yet still able to push out the deep bass without any special DSP. They use some kind of special, vortex air venting which equalises the pressure on both sides of the cone yet at the same time keeping the control of having a box via the air movement "impedance" of that venting .. or something.
But surely the best of both worlds would be some active studio monitors? Many are also designed to deliver dynamics but only to the room (not vast spaces) or nearfield and should be designed to portray all the fine details too. There was some buzz over on another forum for Event Opals a while ago I remember.
Fast dynamics are something which hifi doesn't do often enough at normal listening volumes in my opinion, might be more down to amps and things though.
Audio Advent
15-12-2015, 13:11
Best PA I ever heard was back in '89 when I was stuck on the college campus over Xmas.
That sounds like an anecdote in itself! Stuck?
anthonyTD
15-12-2015, 13:12
Hi Justin,
The place i am describing was in Blackwood, gwent, its long gone, think there's a restuarant there now!
Good memories though.
You mean the Bierkeller in All Saints Street close to the Police station? Been there many a time.
I always thought the Lakota's system in the 90/00s (Upper York Street) was pretty phenomenal at pumping out bass at high volume. Thing is the rest of the frequency range was pretty good too. Electronic dance music as a genre is the biz at shaking rooms and hitting your chest - literally making it vibrate. Not many domestic systems can do the later.
Half the reason I use the system I do is to create that sort of effect i.e. get the room moving and shift sizeable volumes of air at high volume. Since I no longer live in Bristol going to clubs just isn't practical anymore.
Then there was Ajax - the blues club with some of the best reggae sounds going. More chest thumping bass using horn loaded speakers and valve amps. Quite a bit of respect for that. Best rendition of Buju Banton's Boom Bye Bye your likely to hear.
For scale, bass output and volume 99% of domestic systems can't even vaguely get close.
That sounds like an anecdote in itself! Stuck?
Middle of no-where, no transport, no money.
I did have an eighth of black which helped to balance it up a bit ;)
Even if they could hear it, they would be taking advice from a member of public... so they "couldn't hear it".
Member of the public, yes, but actually I know my way around a mixer, as it happens.
Thing was, that PA, within its comfort zone sounded stunning - deep firm bass and very clear overall. Just a db or so seemed to push it into overload, and given that, why not go for quality at a marginally reduced volume (or duck the bass level by just enough), rather than giving the paying public an encounter with a flatulent giant?
I really think they couldn't hear it...Saw the one I spoke to telling the other and getting a baffled shrug.
The best PA I ever heard was Lyle Lovett in the 90's...clarity, soundstage and a complete lack of strain, operated by a sound man who knew both his stuff and the material.
Nial and Martin.
You are both coming up to my Bakeoff. If you want, I can set up my Pa system and we can have a play.
Big JBLs with 15" drivers. Powered mixer, like this.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spirit-Power-station-8-Channel-Mixing-Desk-/321930169920?hash=item4af4888e40:g:KVEAAOSwwE5WVNs h
the speaker cables are not suitable for Hi Fi amps though, so it will be difficult to mix kit. But we can listen anyway.
Nial and Martin.
You are both coming up to my Bakeoff. If you want, I can set up my Pa system and we can have a play.
Big JBLs with 15" drivers. Powered mixer, like this.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spirit-Power-station-8-Channel-Mixing-Desk-/321930169920?hash=item4af4888e40:g:KVEAAOSwwE5WVNs h
the speaker cables are not suitable for Hi Fi amps though, so it will be difficult to mix kit. But we can listen anyway.
Ha! That'd be great!
Previous band system was one of those mixers and four tannoy CPA12's. But we're all getting old so decided to get something more compact and lightweight.
(I have a mate in mid Wales with a large all Tannoy PA, BTW)
I'd bring the RCF's, but wouldn't get them in the car with the other kit, and anyway I am not the keeper of the RCF flame within the band. I've also got some FBT maaxx 6a's, but they aren't quite as good SQ as the RCFs. And are even bigger and a lot heavier than the RCFs...and louder....900w a side.
Sounds great Brian. We'll get a bit of Snoop Dog on and attract the neighbourhood hoes round ;)
Martyn Miles
15-12-2015, 16:33
Generally, PA speakers are designed for a different purpose to home audio speakers.
To project the sound.
I use 2 x JBL Control 5s on my own PA system,
and like another poster here I know my way around a mixer.
I use a Yamaha MG-134CX.
If I run music through them ( I use a Quad 405 as my PA amp. ) they sound reasonable,
but nothing like decent home models.
They are clear and punchy, but imaging, etc. is
non- existent...
I was really referring to a decent sized club / gig setup. Not a pair of Control 5s.
Things change with serious PA set ups. But point taken cheap PA speakers suck.
When used for home hi-fi purposes that is.
Sounds great Brian. We'll get a bit of Snoop Dog on and attract the neighbourhood hoes round...
You'll have to tidy up first, especially if you take them 'upstairs'! :eek: :eyebrows:
Mind you, if they're total growlers, they won't be able to see much with bags over their heads.... ;)
Marco.
Pete The Cat
18-12-2015, 19:49
Back in 2010 at Latitude I went for a wander one evening while my crowd was watching some landfill indie band and found myself passing the (completely empty) dance tent. It was a couple of hours before the set proper was due to kick off. They'd just started playing Leftfield's Dusted over the PA and feeling a little "tired" I wandered in, lay down and stared at the roof. To my delight the whole of Rhythm & Stealth followed and washed over me, the sheer volume and breadth and depth of the sound enveloping like a duvet. Better than anything that took the stage that weekend.
Pete
Audio Advent
18-12-2015, 21:27
I really think they couldn't hear it...Saw the one I spoke to telling the other and getting a baffled shrug.
Probably saying to the other " everyone one think's they're a bloody expert! Where do these people come from??" and so the other shrugged.
To them you were a member of public they're unlikely to listen to else they are accepting their professional ability has been challenged and shown up.
Audio Advent
18-12-2015, 21:34
Back in 2010 at Latitude I went for a wander one evening while my crowd was watching some landfill indie band and found myself passing the (completely empty) dance tent. It was a couple of hours before the set proper was due to kick off. They'd just started playing Leftfield's Dusted over the PA and feeling a little "tired" I wandered in, lay down and stared at the roof. To my delight the whole of Rhythm & Stealth followed and washed over me, the sheer volume and breadth and depth of the sound enveloping like a duvet. Better than anything that took the stage that weekend.
Pete
There's something about loud and none of the usual living room reflections but with some long reflections. Fill the room though with loads of people and it all changes again.
P.S. you must mean the second stage - Gruff Rhys Ive heard in there for example. There's a covered stage in the woods which plays dance stuff at night but you wouldn't want to lay there in the day.
StanleyB
18-12-2015, 22:36
The best PA systems that I have heard were at the Nothinghill carnival in the late seventies and the eighties. Aswad probably had the best of the lot. The group Prophecy used to have a valve based PA rig in the 70's. They had a couple of 24" drivers, bought from Henley's in Edgware road, that they used for subwoofers. The amp used a bank of KT88 that came from the Mullard valve factory in Hammersmith. I used to get called up to do the wiring, often in almost total darkness in some clubs. For some reason I was still able to wire up a rig even when I was completely drunk or stoned.
CornishPasty
19-12-2015, 00:04
I have a JBL 6290, an absolute beast of a thing but the transformers are so noisy I can't use it in the living room. When I'm not listening with my 211 power amps I'm having to slum it with a Crown PSA2. My IMFs really do appreciate having it up them :)
LOL - I do find my IMFs do a pretty good PA impersonation if I whack the volume up a bit.
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