Two Different Worlds [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Rare Bird

15-10-2009, 16:52

Something i notice a lot & can't get my head around, maybe someone can enlighten me..

Why is it that the guy into Vintage Audio/Sound seldom change his equipment & seems to be quite an happy chappy?

On the otherhand why do guys with modern equipment change it like it's going out of fashion & in most instances are happy for a very short period but inevitable end up junking it for something else?

I for one have been at it since i was going on 15.. Over the years have been less & less happy with the sound even though it's supposidly getting better!

One thing a lot of people come to realising is that even though they have been improving the system for decades, they actually havent..when the do actually stumble upon listerning to the old equipment, it hit home even tho they won't admit it for different reasons.

On the other hand for some odd reason some either refuse to give the old gear another chance & straight point blank decide to continue on there journey into what is now!

Of course everyone is entitled to what ever option they choose, i for one believe that a lot decide to let any new fangled format cloud their judgement.

No arguing now commrades ;)

Mick Parry

15-10-2009, 16:59

Andre

Collectors of old stuff also chop and change, some of them have a bedroom stuffed with tuners and turntables etc.

I have a Modern Naim system and have no intention of changing anything. I like what I have got, so I am sticking with it.

Regards

Mick

The Vinyl Adventure

15-10-2009, 17:45

Mick, I think your the shippy or the naim world ;)
I think that the people who have the vintage kit have probably made a more informed decision based on all the hifi from a greater period of time, therfore have setled more easily in the knoledge they have selected the best equipment for them...
Alternativly Mick is right... They just have loads of it and swop and change when they get dissatisfied ... Where's chris? He can prob answer this!

Joe

15-10-2009, 17:47

Collectors of old stuff also chop and change, some of them have a bedroom stuffed with tuners and turntables etc.

I have a Modern Naim system and have no intention of changing anything. I like what I have got, so I am sticking with it.

Indeed. Some people are box swappers by nature; trying out different stuff is part of the fun for them.

I've only had three systems in the past 20 years (and still use two of them) but I'm easily pleased.

aquapiranha

15-10-2009, 17:52

The Grand Wazoo

15-10-2009, 19:20

Most of hi-fi is a slow moving technology. Despite what today's manufacturers will tell you about their latest model, most of it is based on ancient, tried & tested topology: this year they add bows, next year they'll add bells.
But over time, the price ratchets up & the build & part quality goes down.

In so many ways, the old guys knew what they were doing & it makes sense (up to a point) to buy stuff from when the build & part quality was at it's best & pay a lower price for the privelige!

I've spent quite a while finding a combination of gear that works well for me & am happy enough with it knowing that you'll never reach that rarified state of nirvana everyone's looking for - you simply cannot accurately reproduce live music in your home without real musicians & real instruments. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either deluded or trying to sell you something.

All the other gear in other rooms is just for fun!

The Vinyl Adventure

15-10-2009, 19:42

i thought you would say something like that :) ...

Themis

15-10-2009, 19:46

There is also what I call the "quality/price" trap: People buying their systems based on quality/price ratios.

Generally, they will buy a good price/quality ratio system. Not perfect, but good at the moment of purchase. As life goes on, they face two odds:

a) they may manage to get a better social position and a better salary
b) technology goes on shuffling the previous quality/price models (by including more options).

Inevitably you find out that you can do better than the previous choice.
But, as you will still buy on a quality/price ratio, you're endlessly trapped.

Marco

15-10-2009, 19:51

I think what andre is alluding too is the fact that lots of 'vintage' equipment represents the SOTA even today, against some modern equipment. I have heard stuff older than me that sounds fantastic (Quad / Tannoy etc)

There are some who just can't see that older equipment can sound fantastic, even if sometimes they need a bit of a spruce up, caps replacing etc.

you write off quality vintage gear at your peril.

Hear, hear!

In general, I'm with Andre, and also with what Steve says above, as it represents the methodology I adopt with my own system-building.

The vintage 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds (with modern crossovers) I use are a valid case in point. Quite frankly, and I can say this from experience, most modern speakers at up to £10k (and perhaps more) would struggle to compete with them.

Whenever I hear genuinely excellent vintage equipment (and let's not forget that there's plenty of tat around, too) it always hits home rather abruptly how little real progress has been made in hi-fi, in terms of out-and-out sound quality, in the last 50-odd years!

It's different though if making things smaller and neater is important to you, and slicker in terms of operation, or the obvious advances in technology with the likes of computer audio, but with traditional 2-channel hi-fi (in the main), forget it. Most of the genuine innovation happened years ago.

Why do you think magazines and hi-fi shows are full of valve amps and turntables, representing 'legacy hi-fi' and 'ancient' technology? Because when people hear what they're capable of (when done well) it shows up most modern techology (and some associated equipment) for what it is: a rather poor second-class citizen in the areas that really matter! ;)

Marco.

Magna Audio

15-10-2009, 20:18

:) The 4 T's for me Techie, TVC, Tubes and Tannoys
All either 2nd hand or DIY.

alb

15-10-2009, 20:27

All my box swapping occurred during the late seventies and eighties. A period when i was rarely contented with anything. Every new arrival sounded just as sterile and uninteresting as the previous one.
Marriage, kids and responsibilities bought this to a halt, and bought me time to think.
I abandoned the magazine driven world of HIFI, and was fairly quickly able to find stuff that i liked, rather than stuff i was supposed to like.
Back in control again.

Valves and vintage often share some similarities in the way they present music. They can be easy to live with. IMHO.
Modern gear can have a very different presentation, which isn't always easy to live with. IMHO.
Hence the tendency to yearn for change all the time.

Hypnotoad

15-10-2009, 21:58

A lot of it is nostalgia, with vintage gear you can afford to buy the gear you couldn't when you were younger.

I didn't have the money to spare to get a system that cost as much as a new car when I was in my twenties.

Now I can buy such a system for a fraction of that cost.

Marco

15-10-2009, 22:06

I agree with that, Philip, but much will depend on how old you are.

Most genuinely renowned vintage gear (classic valve amps and certain speakers, for example) was made well before my time, so for me nostalgia doesn't come into it. I judge vintage gear purely on its sonic and musical performance, which to my ears is often superior to that of its modern counterparts, especially when sympathetically modified :)

Marco.

Beechwoods

15-10-2009, 22:10

Most of my system is about as old as me, if not slightly older. For me, it's the value you get from vintage gear - quality that would be unobtainable in new gear of the same price. There is a nostalgia element, but the old 1/4 inch tape formats have to be heard to be appreciated. I still can't get over how I put a TT together for £100 that sounds as good as I think mine does (no giant killer, but infinitely better than the 5-star what-hi-fi thing it replaced, and comparable with my dad's 301 that I'd grown up with - he thinks mine is better actually, but I think that was down to setup on his old machine :)).

My Quad 33/303 is stock, with new caps in the late 90's. One day I guess I'll do the old net-audio thing but for now I'm just really happy with how it sounds.

Marco

15-10-2009, 22:24

Your Lenco is a bit older than you is it not? ;)

I'd say that the best parts of my system are those which are older than I am. The Tannoys are over 50 years old, and my valve amp is based on 1950s technology...

I also use a cartridge designed in the late 1950s (Shure M3D) and one from the late 60s (Denon DL-103).

Yer tape-boy shit it just too damned modern! :ner:

Marco.

Stratmangler

15-10-2009, 22:30

Yer tape-boy shit it just too damned modern! :ner:

It's a damned sight older than yer new fangled LP record matey ;)

Chris:)

Marco

15-10-2009, 22:36

Ya, this is true :)

Some of the single-ended valve amp boys though are using tubes that were introduced in the 20s!!

So that makes tape distinctly modern in comparison ;)

Marco.

Stratmangler

15-10-2009, 22:50

Nah, I'm on about tape recording.

I lifted this from Wikipedia

Electronics engineer Jack Mullin had been assigned to a U.S. Army Signal Corps unit stationed in France during World War II. On a mission in Germany near the end of the war, he acquired and later shipped home a German Magnetophon (tape recorder) and fifty reels of I.G. Farben plastic recording tape. Back in the U.S., Mullin rebuilt and developed the machine with the intention of selling it to the film industry, and held a series of demonstrations which quickly became the talk of the American audio industry. Mullin's second demonstration was witnessed by Murdo MacKenzie, technical director for Crosby's radio show.

Chris;)

The Grand Wazoo

15-10-2009, 23:42

I think wire-recorders go back even further Chris, and they were basically the same technology were they not?

(The dog's now smelling much sweeter, now he's had a walk by the way!)

Beechwoods

16-10-2009, 05:31

Your Lenco is a bit older than you is it not? ;)
Yer tape-boy shit it just too damned modern! :ner:

:lol: The 75 in L75 was derived from the year it came out; so I was 2 at that point! The Quad stuff definitely is. But yeah, my tape stuff is a bit newer, but then tape came of age in the glorious 70's.

I wouldn't want to play chewns on a wire recorder, Chris!

5UpOO8yqXQo

Mick Parry

16-10-2009, 09:23

Chaps

I think most modern amps knock the spots off the old stuff and cables and inter connects are vastly superior today.

I think older speakers tend to sound better because in the main they are bigger and size is bloody important where speakers are concerned. Modern speakers are designed for new build small houses and WAF. Houses built in the 50's were nearly 50% bigger than a new build of today and those old big speakers looked less conspicuous in a period house than in some little appartment.

My shack in Spain is comparable to a small 2 bed terrace and whatever system I put in it will be small. It will sound crap in comparision to what I have here but I shall just have to live with it.

Regards

Mick

The Grand Wazoo

16-10-2009, 09:25

Old speakers were bigger because you only had one to accomodate in the age of mono.
.............I'm still waiting Mr Parry

Marco

16-10-2009, 09:38

Hi Mick,

I think most modern amps knock the spots off the old stuff and cables and inter connects are vastly superior today.

You know how much I used to love my Naim 52/135s. I used them happily for six years, both bought, if you remember, from brand new.

However, I can tell you quite categorically, old chap, that my modified Croft valve preamp and 30W Class A valve power amp are in a totally different league in any area of music reproduction you care to mention.

One day you might see the light and venture into the 'dark side' of valves, just like some previously diehard Naimees have on pfm...

Trust me, the 'defection' is worth it, and I'm sure that Paul will still buy you a beer at the lodge ;)

Marco.

Mick Parry

16-10-2009, 09:49

Marco

I have to be honest and admit that a good valve system is engaging. I was once in a colleagues house in Leatherhead many moons ago and by chance noticed two massive speakers in his dining room. After a chat it transpired that they were 15" Tannoy Dualconcentric powered up by a valve system and to my eternal shame, I cannot recall the name of the manufacturer. He put on a record (Garrard 301) and the sound was fantastic, so I do admit that there are other good systems other than Naim.

Whether the sound was due to the Tannoys, the valves or a combination of the two, I cannot say but what I will say was that it was truly exceptional. I will not criticise anyone for having a valve system.

Having said all that, I still love my Naim / brik combination and if you are happy with it ... stick with it.

Regards

Mick

Mick Parry

16-10-2009, 09:54

Wazoo

I have client who is very politically correct and it was a condition of engagement that I attended a two day diversity course. You should do the same and then you may think about issuing an apology.

What you need to remember is that what was once considered a light hearted joke ten years ago is cringeworthy today.

I am in an office where 80% of the workforce are women and that little joke of yours would have got you into serious trouble. No ifs and buts, that quip of yours broke all the modern rules. I have amended my jokes and you should do the same.

At the end of the day it is your choice.

Regards

Mick

Marco

16-10-2009, 09:57

I was once in a colleagues house in Leatherhead many moons ago and by chance noticed two massive speakers in his dining room. After a chat it transpired that they were 15" Tannoy Dualconcentric powered up by a valve system and to my eternal shame, I cannot recall the name of the manufacturer. He put on a record (Garrard 301) and the sound was fantastic, so I do admit that there are other good systems other than Naim.

Whether the sound was due to the Tannoys, the valves or a combination of the two, I cannot say but what I will say was that it was truly exceptional. I will not criticise anyone for having a valve system.

Nice one, old chap. It's good that you're open-minded about it. I know what I'm talking about here, you know ;)

Have you noticed that I'm using huge Tannoys myself these days? My 'Lockwood Majors' with 15" vintage Monitor Gold drive units are simply stunning!

I think you'd love my system these days if you heard it :)

Why not try a simply little valve-based system for your shack in Spain? I could suggest something suitable if you wish. Trust me, it'll be far better than that AVI nonsense!

Marco.

Btw, it's good to see you posting more often here - keep it up.

chris@panteg

16-10-2009, 09:58

I know this rather odd chap ' who only ever uses old vintage gear ' except he does not like vinyl that much (uses an SL10) for sheer convenience ' sensitive to static so he says.

But he is constantly chopping and changing stuff all the time , must have been through 50+ valve amps in the last 15 years , god knows how many speakers etc , i don't think he is music lover though , he seems to be a sound lover if you know what i mean.

He is good to know though ' as he is able to get hold of all sorts of stuff .

Rare Bird

16-10-2009, 10:00

I may be a bit of an hypocrite here..Even though i used to adore my Garrard 401 & never heard a bass responce from any other turntable like it, i won't entertain Vinyl anymore, not because i think it's no good, on the contrary it will always be the best sounding format at the side of tape, but the fact is the the vinyl record i find flawed & the music i listern to has an awesome amount of bad pressings..

So it's vintage amps, Speakers, Tuners & Tape machines for me but CD front end, my next move will be a Tube DAC, But never again will i buy modern equipment.

Marco:
Hands up i used to take Flat Responce magazine back then & was a Naim 32/Hi-Cap/250 owner, that amp lasted about a month before i started to hate it..I think this period in time was the worse period for me.

Mick Parry

16-10-2009, 10:03

Marco

All this chat is preventing me from drafting a report, you are going to get me the sack.

The AVI scores on compactness and the fact that it can be run off the lap top is highly convenient. The downside is the sound will be wanting.

The valve suggestion may have some merit, it would certainly be a talking point with the boozy ex pats.

I will pick your brains in another thread nearer the time.

Regards

Mick

Marco

16-10-2009, 10:06

No problem - feel free to anytime!

The downside is the sound will be wanting.

I'd suggest that's reasonably significant ;)

Marco.

Mick Parry

16-10-2009, 10:08

Rare Bird

16-10-2009, 10:14

Andre

I have a Garrard 401 and the main thing with any Garrard is to mount it in a decent plinth. Mine is in a traditional looking Loricraft plinth but there are several good alternative makes out there. But please make sure you have a decent plinth.

As regards to the actual vinyl, have you tried buying from Tony over on PFM. He knows his stuff and is genuinely honest in describing the condition of what he sells. I recently purchased a LP from him of George Melly which was pristine and had no trace of snap crackle or pop.

Regards

Mick

Yes Plinth is important, i originally had one of Terrys first Loricraft plinths, but switched to my own, i used to make bespoke Plinths for Garrards,Lenco & Thorens, used to advertise in Hi-Fi World at one bit.

Regarding bad pressing, what i was trying to say is some of the original 1st issue pressings were of poor quality.Don't get me wrong all my Records were A1 mint condition, never bought marked or worn records..

Hypnotoad

16-10-2009, 14:10

Rare Bird

16-10-2009, 14:42

You have bad recordings in both Cd and Vinyl.

I got some UK pressings of Tangerine Dream yesterday for next to nothing, washed them and put one on to play, there was some very mild background noise in the quietest parts and the odd click and pop between tracks.

That doesn't worry me at all, to me it's all part of the vinyl experience

The recording though was first class.

Like they say on that commercial:

Some old records = $8.00

Washing them = 50 cents

Relaxing and listening to them = priceless.

The ones i had the bad pressing problems with on vinyl i now have on CD remastered from the original tapes, they are like night & day, clear evidence that the Vinyl record pressing was poor not the recording...We have a great record company going at the moment called Esoteric records, they are doing a superb job at remastering obscure Prog albums, small scale at the moment but what they presently have in the catalogue is a great feat for the short period they have been active under the prent name..If i can i always buy Japanese issued CD's tho, they are so much better.